View Full Version : Tesla is having some big network issues
From the 'be careful having dependencies on technology' department...
Tesla is having some big network issues (https://techcrunch.com/2018/08/29/tesla-is-reportedly-having-some-major-network-issues/)
Tesla’s (https://crunchbase.com/organization/tesla-motors)fleet internet network and website appear to currently be down for some users and it’s causing problems for vehicle owners who rely on the Tesla app.
Electrek (https://electrek.co/2018/08/29/tesla-network-fleet-intetnet-down/) reported on the outage earlier and users across Twitter have been complaining about being unable to log into the company’s desktop site or mobile app. Reports have been popping up for the past couple of hours and the company’s website is oddly also down currently. We’ve reached out to Tesla for more details of what exactly is happening.
Update: A Tesla spokesperson tells TechCrunch that they “are working to resolve the issue.”
While some users are just getting error messages during log-in, other users (https://twitter.com/scoutdamartin/status/1034918934569529350) are being pointed to messages that say that the app is under “temporary maintenance.”
What does that mean for affected Tesla owners right now? Well, it definitely means they can’t get any new updates for the time being or see details about their vehicle in the app. Life is a lot rougher for users who may be solely relying on the Tesla app to unlock or start their car and don’t have app access to do either currently.
I wish it would make the news when my online banking is often swinging between completely unavailable or has gaping security holes. Then maybe it'd get fixed.
I wish it would make the news when my online banking is often swinging between completely unavailable or has gaping security holes. Then maybe it'd get fixed.
Exactly.
This Tesla cloud based system, one of if not THE first of it's kind, has been in place for half a dozen years now and this is the first hiccup it's experienced and we're all supposed to be scared back to driving stage coaches? I only wish my other cloud based accounts were anywhere near as reliable. It should be noted that your phone will still unlock and start the car since it communicates with trusted connections locally w/o the need to "phone home" to verify. The only issue is that you may not be able to remotely "start" your car (not even a thing w/Teslas really) to cool or heat the cabin to the temperature you set.
This is much ado about nothing & about as click baity as things get IMO.
I was reading some posts by a former developer at Tesla. I'll try to hunt them down but from what I read the systems at Tesla are pretty horrible. I'm not surprised to hear this at all.
Network computer system has network issues, film at 11.
Also, the issue has been resolved.
The posts from the former tesla dev summed up on twitter.
https://twitter.com/atomicthumbs/status/1032939617404645376
68Charger
08-30-2018, 11:59
Exactly.
This Tesla cloud based system, one of if not THE first of it's kind, has been in place for half a dozen years now and this is the first hiccup it's experienced and we're all supposed to be scared back to driving stage coaches? I only wish my other cloud based accounts were anywhere near as reliable. It should be noted that your phone will still unlock and start the car since it communicates with trusted connections locally w/o the need to "phone home" to verify. The only issue is that you may not be able to remotely "start" your car (not even a thing w/Teslas really) to cool or heat the cabin to the temperature you set.
This is much ado about nothing & about as click baity as things get IMO.
The exact implementation of what they're doing (EV with those specific components), but they're not inventing the wheel... embedded code has been used on many systems, not just on automobiles.
So did it not inconvenience you in the slightest on daily use of your Tesla?
Running a single datacenter is just a ticking timebomb for full out failure- that's no DR plan whatsoever. All it would take is one significant local event (think like Hurricane Sandy), and it's all offline for DAYS to WEEKS.
Maybe they're working on a new datacenter, but IMHO it's good to have critical thinking that reveals the "man behind the curtain" rather than just blindly trusting and worshiping.... after all, he is just a man.
I assume that the posts from the disgruntled guy are a snapshot of what Tesla looked like a few years ago before his NDA expired. A lot of what he writes reads a lot like similar posts from engineers on the ground level of pretty much any startup.
68Charger
08-30-2018, 12:39
I assume that the posts from the disgruntled guy are a snapshot of what Tesla looked like a few years ago before his NDA expired. A lot of what he writes reads a lot like similar posts from engineers on the ground level of pretty much any startup.
Worship them if you want... but when their product is wrapped up in and embedded with so much technology, I would hope they have significantly invested in security, redundancy and diversity of their systems.... otherwise they're going to lose the trust of the buying public. Remember when someone released a hack on a Jeep, shutting down the brake system? These kinds of hacks haven't gone away.... and Tesla isn't immune
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/20/tesla-model-s-chinese-hack-remote-control-brakes
https://www.wired.com/2016/08/jeep-hackers-return-high-speed-steering-acceleration-hacks/
https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/hackers-wirelessly-cut-brakes-on-2013-corvette/
https://www.businessinsider.com/it-took-gm-5-years-to-fix-a-hacking-vulnerability-2015-9?r=UK&IR=T
you're probably just going to dismiss it as FUD... but no thanks, I'll stick with vehicles that listen to the driver's input only... but maybe that's because I'm a network engineer, and think of the evil that hackers can do- since it's part of my job to keep them out.
Please point out where I "worshipped them."
All I did was point out that the disgruntled former employee posted information that is presumably several years out of date. Most of his posts read like the sausage making that goes on with any high tech company. Furthermore, he was an engineer on the infotainment system and didn't offer any actual info on any of the safety-critical systems in the car.
Yes, I'm well aware of the Jeep hack, the cybersecurity articles on it were actually quite interesting. Of course Tesla isn't immune to this, but if their vehicle was as easily hacked as the Jeeps were, there would have been huge presentations about it at DEFCON and other hacking symposiums, and it would have been crowed about loudly in the mainstream press. Cybersecurity issues are hardly going to be limited to Tesla, and the risks of insecure systems will only continue to grow as cars become more and more computerized.
68Charger
08-30-2018, 13:35
Please point out where I "worshipped them."
I didn't say you did... maybe implied, but not directly... they have a cult-like following among millions that don't own a single one of their products.
Didn't mean to target you directly, just meant as a general statement about how people regard Tesla and Mr. Musk- sorry if it came off as a personal attack.
And yes, other vehicles are also embedded with lots of technology- but I can take those ICE vehicles to any third party fuel station, and fill up with my next tank.
If Tesla wanted to shut a car owner out of the network today, they'd be up shit creek- they'd take all night to get close to a full charge without "the network", and one employee with a vengeance and technical expertise could likely shut down their vehicle using the cellular connection. I guess it's my independent streak that doesn't want to give someone else that kind of power over my property.
I didn't say you did... maybe implied, but not directly... they have a cult-like following among millions that don't own a single one of their products.
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/170348-Tesla-is-having-some-big-network-issues?p=2159609&viewfull=1#post2159609
Worship them if you want...
At least when I get called out for trolling, I own it.
And yes, other vehicles are also embedded with lots of technology- but I can take those ICE vehicles to any third party fuel station, and fill up with my next tank.
Gonna be kind of hard to drive that ICE vehicle to a gas station if it's been hacked so that the brakes or steering don't work. Frankly, the cybersecurity issues related to remotely networked vehicles are not part and parcel with vehicles that are powered with batteries and electric motors. They're two separate issues, and apply to pretty much any new vehicle that has an integrated wireless connection.
If Tesla wanted to shut a car owner out of the network today, they'd be up shit creek- they'd take all night to get close to a full charge without "the network", and one employee with a vengeance and technical expertise could likely shut down their vehicle using the cellular connection. I guess it's my independent streak that doesn't want to give someone else that kind of power over my property.
Same issue is going to apply to the legacy automakers as they implement these features. Frankly, it's not going to be just Tesla, or just cars, or just social media, or just financial companies, but fundamentally any networked system. The fact that these large companies are able to deplatform and ultimately unperson an individual is going to be a huge, huge issue in the coming years, and is already a large reason why certain sections of the internet are already balkanizing along political lines.
68Charger
08-30-2018, 14:39
They're not just a vehicle manufacturer, they provide the only network that can charge their vehicles at an acceptable rate.
it's like if Exxon built cars, and made them so only their pumps would put gas in it.
so it's not the same thing... we all have choices in what we drive (until this isn't a free country anymore)- and I choose to drive vehicles that are not controlled by someone other than the driver. Drive what you choose, but don't blow smoke up my ass about another option that I refuse to choose. Call me a troll if you want, there's still Musk worship real heavy in this thread- paled by the worship in the media.
Maybe I'm speaking a different English... but "worship them if you want" isn't directly saying you are... that would be "spare me the Tesla worship" (or the like)
I assume that the posts from the disgruntled guy are a snapshot of what Tesla looked like a few years ago before his NDA expired. A lot of what he writes reads a lot like similar posts from engineers on the ground level of pretty much any startup.
That's probably very accurate. I read a ton of what he was posting and it's mostly just being disgruntled. Some of it, if even only mostly true, is pretty bad though and I'm not surprised to hear they had an outage. I've worked in many sized companies from start up to huge corporations. The engineers will dog on the systems no matter what. I know that all systems are prone to break at some point for one reason or another. Just having a single data center is a really bad idea. Your guess is as good as mine about how true that is too.
Was talking to a co-worker today who got some advice from a local tow-truck operator: "Don't buy a Tesla."
When you have something that is reliant on technology, you have increased opportunities for failure. If you read up on the subject, you would find that there were people that couldn't unlock or start their vehicles during the outage.
My ICE vehicle has a proximity keyfob and push-button start...but it also has an emergency key to get in and start it. If you want to count on your phone and an app to control your vehicle, there are multiple opportunities for failure. Just be aware and don't pretend it doesn't happen. Murphy's a bitch.
I've never read any books or articles about The Tow Truck Driver Next Door, or Ten Things All Tow Truck Drivers Know That You Don't.
The relying on technology thing is pretty funny for anyone who has a vehicle made after about 1996.
68Charger
08-30-2018, 18:14
Was talking to a co-worker today who got some advice from a local tow-truck operator: "Don't buy a Tesla."
When you have something that is reliant on technology, you have increased opportunities for failure. If you read up on the subject, you would find that there were people that couldn't unlock or start their vehicles during the outage.
My ICE vehicle has a proximity keyfob and push-button start...but it also has an emergency key to get in and start it. If you want to count on your phone and an app to control your vehicle, there are multiple opportunities for failure. Just be aware and don't pretend it doesn't happen. Murphy's a bitch.
it's called the KISS principle... Keep It Simple, Stupid
if you really want the high-tech, whiz-bang options then they either need to be built with double (or triple) redundant systems, with monitoring of primary and backup- so you know there's something to fall back to.... or plan on it failing you at some point.
When you pay that much for a Tesla, many people assume that's what you get.... it's not. There may be some critical systems with redundancy built in (and this should be a technical requirement when doing "autopilot"... otherwise you get people driving into the side of a semi, or running over cyclists. [Muaha]
68Charger
08-30-2018, 18:31
I've never read any books or articles about The Tow Truck Driver Next Door, or Ten Things All Tow Truck Drivers Know That You Don't.
The relying on technology thing is pretty funny for anyone who has a vehicle made after about 1996.
There are degrees/levels of technology integration. Technically the wheel is "technology"... just really old, simple technology. Like anything complex, modern automobile have 100s or 1000s of different technologies in them... some active, some passive
The more complicated the technology, the more difficult it is and more time it takes to make it right- and the more chance that somebody else can disrupt it (like hackers).
So technology that has been in use for longer periods has had time to work the bugs out.... bleeding edge technology will have early adopters finding the bugs. If that's your bag, go for it... I don't want to play that with my vehicles, unless it's a toy (like a race car)
It's not like I'm a luddite... I build networks and deal with technology every day at work- including testing and breaking it in our test lab.
Are you saying that you don't camp out for the new iPhone every two years?
Grant H.
08-30-2018, 18:40
Damn...
What did Tesla do to piss in everyone's wheaties?
The amount of pissing/moaning about how Tesla is "this/that/other bad thing" without any proof beyond the posts of some likely disgruntled employee, or maybe some internet troll who has never worked at Tesla, who has an axe to grind, and a network issue that didn't actually amount to much for the end users (I know several people that own Tesla cars, and didn't have an issue).
Everyone talking about how they should have redundant data centers, backups, etc... on and on and on are literally building their argument for how Tesla is such a failure on information that is likely either SEVERELY outdated, or just flat inaccurate.
As for people talking about how networks SHOULD be built, I will say this...
Even big players like AWS have significant issues... The kind of issues that cause global companies to lose their shit... And they have all the triple redundant, super duper overkill possible for their data centers and services.
A lot of misinformation from the Tesla haters who'd rather not fact check before spreading FUD that's inaccurate. All Tesla's include a backup key of some sort that doesn't require any sort of network connectivity to unlock, start & drive the car... Nearly identical to your acclaimed proximity sensing key & push button starter... Only better. If anyone couldn't get into their car during this outage they're a fucking moron. Not sure how else to put that gently so I won't.
The constant hate from those who refuse to do independent research or *gasp* go for a ride in one or even drive one gets real old. Reminds me of trying to have an educated conversation with liberals about guns when all they want to do is FUD while investing zero time actually researching what they claim to know so much about.
I'm sure a lot of people in the early 1900's argued adamantly that ICE would never replace the tried & true horse drawn carriage or those who argued that telephones weren't as reliable as telegraphs or that computers would never replace the venerable library or.... I could go on but at some point I just need to recognize that some people just can't be swayed with facts, statistics or reality. For them the future is a lot like the past & that's just where some people are more comfortable.
Keep in mind that not everyone is the same age as you, and they may not have to embrace up and coming technology as hard. I'm pretty confident that I'll be able to buy and drive ICE vehicles for the rest of my life, but probably not with manual transmissions.
Bailey Guns
08-30-2018, 19:24
We're gonna get to the point where we have to call tech support in India for car trouble.
Me: "Yeah, hi. My car won't start."
Tech Support (with Indian accent): "OK, I see. Let's try this. Shut it off and turn it on again."
Me: "Uh...Is there someone in America I can talk to."
68Charger
08-30-2018, 19:29
Also gets old hearing people hype a product they don't even own...
The louder the BS on one side, the louder it'll get on the other.
If anyone couldn't get into their car during this outage they're a fucking moron. Not sure how else to put that gently so I won't.
That's precisely it. I know people who don't carry a wallet. They put EVERYTHING on their phone. They don't think about what happens when their phone dies, or breaks. Then you have nothing.
Trust, but verify.
I've had a career in technology for about 30 years now. I know that nothing is fool-proof. I also have a vehicle with all kinds of modern driver aids, so I'm totally aware of how the systems/sensors/software misinterpret the world.
One thing age can give you is wisdom. The understanding that when your context of the world and what's in it is limited, it's amazing what you don't understand. How many times have those of us that have lived better than half a century have heard something is "New!", "Never been done before!", etc., only to have lived at a time when that thing existed before. Just because you call it an SUV or CUV, that doesn't mean it's not a station wagon.
Those that accuse people of being naysayers because they're living in a bubble, need to get out of their own echo chamber. I've been following this story since before it was a story. There's a ton of information out there. Inform yourself.
Musk claims to be "expanding production to profitability". Where are his new assembly lines? China. You don't run a third of your production out of temporary structures as a plan. That's desperation. When the shine wears off of Tesla, there will be many unhappy people.....or maybe I'm wrong. Let's see what happens.
I'm still waiting on the flying cars from the '60s.
DireWolf
08-30-2018, 20:27
Even big players like AWS have significant issues... The kind of issues that cause global companies to lose their shit... And they have all the triple redundant, super duper overkill possible for their data centers and services.
To be fair, these types of issues (high-impact event, system/comms failure, etc.) nearly always stem from root-cause considerations related to ego and some combination of incompetence/overconfidence (even if we call it something more polite), manifested in various ways and deficiencies...Nearly. Always.
We're gonna get to the point where we have to call tech support in India for car trouble.
Me: "Yeah, hi. My car won't start."
Tech Support (with Indian accent): "OK, I see. Let's try this. Shut it off and turn it on again."
Me: "Uh...Is there someone in America I can talk to."
Made me think of this scene:
https://youtu.be/lbfV7EQpz_I
Keep in mind that not everyone is the same age as you, and they may not have to embrace up and coming technology as hard. I'm pretty confident that I'll be able to buy and drive ICE vehicles for the rest of my life, but probably not with manual transmissions.
Because I'm SO young. lol
Also gets old hearing people hype a product they don't even own...
The louder the BS on one side, the louder it'll get on the other.
I know you think the fact that I don't own one is somehow a Trump card & that's why you continually bring it up but it's pointless. I don't an Ed Brown custom 1911 so does that mean I can't comment that their solid especially when someone is spreading negative misinformation as if it were fact?
Who's on a "side" because all I'm doing is countering misinformation. Not sure why you feel the need to turn every conversation into an argument.
That's precisely it. I know people who don't carry a wallet. They put EVERYTHING on their phone. They don't think about what happens when their phone dies, or breaks. Then you have nothing.
Trust, but verify.
I've had a career in technology for about 30 years now. I know that nothing is fool-proof. I also have a vehicle with all kinds of modern driver aids, so I'm totally aware of how the systems/sensors/software misinterpret the world.
One thing age can give you is wisdom. The understanding that when your context of the world and what's in it is limited, it's amazing what you don't understand. How many times have those of us that have lived better than half a century have heard something is "New!", "Never been done before!", etc., only to have lived at a time when that thing existed before. Just because you call it an SUV or CUV, that doesn't mean it's not a station wagon.
Those that accuse people of being naysayers because they're living in a bubble, need to get out of their own echo chamber. I've been following this story since before it was a story. There's a ton of information out there. Inform yourself.
Musk claims to be "expanding production to profitability". Where are his new assembly lines? China. You don't run a third of your production out of temporary structures as a plan. That's desperation. When the shine wears off of Tesla, there will be many unhappy people.....or maybe I'm wrong. Let's see what happens.
I'm still waiting on the flying cars from the '60s.
So the people you know who put everything in their phone also put their current car key in their phone?
Teslas come with a fob or keycard that will do everything other cars do as far as lock/unlock/start/stop w/o needing a network. I said that but people seem to be missing that fact. If you left your key & fob at home would you blame Ford for not being able to get into your car? Then why are so many hating on Tesla for giving functionality exactly like your used to as a backup & then also giving you MORE functionality as a bonus?
Inform myself? Of what exactly? I'm disputing misinformation that's being presented as fact by people who clearly possess a limited amount of knowledge on the subject.
The irony of being told to inform myself by people who blindly parrot whatever the media pitches them w/o the slightest bit of fact checking is not lost on me.
We do have flying cars. They're called helicopters. lol
68Charger
08-30-2018, 21:02
That's precisely it. I know people who don't carry a wallet. They put EVERYTHING on their phone. They don't think about what happens when their phone dies, or breaks. Then you have nothing.
Trust, but verify.
I've had a career in technology for about 30 years now. I know that nothing is fool-proof. I also have a vehicle with all kinds of modern driver aids, so I'm totally aware of how the systems/sensors/software misinterpret the world.
One thing age can give you is wisdom. The understanding that when your context of the world and what's in it is limited, it's amazing what you don't understand. How many times have those of us that have lived better than half a century have heard something is "New!", "Never been done before!", etc., only to have lived at a time when that thing existed before. Just because you call it an SUV or CUV, that doesn't mean it's not a station wagon.
Those that accuse people of being naysayers because they're living in a bubble, need to get out of their own echo chamber. I've been following this story since before it was a story. There's a ton of information out there. Inform yourself.
Musk claims to be "expanding production to profitability". Where are his new assembly lines? China. You don't run a third of your production out of temporary structures as a plan. That's desperation. When the shine wears off of Tesla, there will be many unhappy people.....or maybe I'm wrong. Let's see what happens.
I'm still waiting on the flying cars from the '60s.
Well said... You've got me beat a few years on the tech career... but only a few.
And it's called confirmation bias- if you WANT it to be the answer to your dreams, you'll do everything you can to keep that dream alive, even if you can't buy one.
I'm a realist, I try to see the big picture- and believe there are 3 sides to every story- the proponents, the antagonists, and the truth. I've read about people that have been without their model S for 3 months because they were in an accident (not their fault), and Tesla doesn't make enough spare parts to fix their car. You pay what, $100k (before tax incentives... but also before sales tax, Title & License fees) to have it taken out by some asshole who's on their phone? Sure, that'll happen with other vehicles, but they have spare parts and can be back on the road much quicker. Sure, I've also read the rave reviews, people who can't stop talking about them- and then sometimes I find out they don't even own one.
I've read, I looked into it- with an open mind... and No Thanks. not anything I would want to spend even $49K (minus Tax credit, but plus TTL) on for a Model 3... or somewhere in the middle for a used Model S or X.
If I won the lottery, I'd really consider the new roadster- it's a very nice toy.
Eventually I'm sure something like them will be mainstream... I appreciate the technology, I just don't want to rely on it yet.
I want to be clear that everything I said stipulated that I have no idea how true what I've read is. I've actually driven a Tesla many times they're very cool cars. My major beef with Elon Musk is that he took billions of our tax dollars for his companies. I'm not cool with that at all.
Well said... You've got me beat a few years on the tech career... but only a few.
And it's called confirmation bias- if you WANT it to be the answer to your dreams, you'll do everything you can to keep that dream alive, even if you can't buy one.
I'm a realist, I try to see the big picture- and believe there are 3 sides to every story- the proponents, the antagonists, and the truth. I've read about people that have been without their model S for 3 months because they were in an accident (not their fault), and Tesla doesn't make enough spare parts to fix their car. You pay what, $100k (before tax incentives... but also before sales tax, Title & License fees) to have it taken out by some asshole who's on their phone? Sure, that'll happen with other vehicles, but they have spare parts and can be back on the road much quicker. Sure, I've also read the rave reviews, people who can't stop talking about them- and then sometimes I find out they don't even own one.
I've read, I looked into it- with an open mind... and No Thanks. not anything I would want to spend even $49K (minus Tax credit, but plus TTL) on for a Model 3... or somewhere in the middle for a used Model S or X.
If I won the lottery, I'd really consider the new roadster- it's a very nice toy.
Eventually I'm sure something like them will be mainstream... I appreciate the technology, I just don't want to rely on it yet.
Who says I can't buy one? Now you pretend to know my financial situation too?
Funny you've read about people being w/o their cars for months because I have too only it was people who had mailed out cars & trucks of various makes & models who couldn't find a shop w/o months of lead time. So? Hell, our car right now was MUCH cheaper than a Tesla & currently has an open recall for an airbag issue that not only do they not have a fix for but it's likely going to be months until they do. What's your point?
I'm not spending $50k or $100k on a new car either. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in paying a fraction of that for a clean used one if the right deal came along. I'm just not getting a car payment for one nor am I taking the new car depreciation hit for ANY new car.
That new roadster is insane but until a regular Joe can buy one it's vaporware. Just like the Model 3 was & the S before that. Each time though we were promised something that seemed impossible & each time we were made to eat our words so I'm done doubting Tesla. I think that Roadster is everything they say it's going to be.
Nobody is saying you have to rely on squat just stop hating on them & spreading false information. Just be content to watch how the play unfolds from the sideline.
I want to be clear that everything I said stipulated that I have no idea how true what I've read is. I've actually driven a Tesla many times they're very cool cars. My major beef with Elon Musk is that he took billions of our tax dollars for his companies. I'm not cool with that at all.
What's that you said about confirmation bias 68Charger?
Wait, are you saying I have bias or I don't?
Teslas come with a fob or keycard that will do everything other cars do as far as lock/unlock/start/stop w/o needing a network. I said that but people seem to be missing that fact. If you left your key & fob at home would you blame Ford for not being able to get into your car? Then why are so many hating on Tesla for giving functionality exactly like your used to as a backup & then also giving you MORE functionality as a bonus?
Are you intentionally being obtuse?
I can't leave my keys at home because I couldn't leave home without them. I'm dependent on the proximity key, but as long as I have it, there's a mechanical option built-in. Battery dies, and I'm still driving home when I want to.
Some of the Tesla owners have become reliant on using the app to open and start their vehicles. They left the key fob at home, because they became dependent on another option that they expected to always be available...and then it wasn't. Can you even accept that reality?
Can you imagine what might happen to a vehicle like the Tesla if the company becomes defunct? If GM or Ford went under today, there would be scrapyards with used parts and aftermarket parts available. For Tesla, no app support, no navigation system telling you which way to go to make sure you don't stray too far from a charger, possibly no Superchargers. Crazier things have happened in our history.
Wait, are you saying I have bias or I don't?
Everyone has bias. If someone tells you they're "unbiased", they're lying.
Everyone has bias. If someone tells you they're "unbiased", they're lying.
Yes, I myself is favor of some manufacturer over others. Like, I have bias and lean towards BMW Ms, than Stupid Daimler MB AMG pos. In fact, I gotta go to MB Westminster dealership tomorrow morning and pickup a loaner car again. Preference also changes relative to time. I disliked Toyota and Hyundai during the 90s. Now, I prefer those over Honda.
ONLY way i would buy a tesla is , if I made 2x of cost of tesla in a week off of buying/selling cheapo options on TSLA.
Oh yeah, So far, I had no damn issue(s) with Hyundai Elantra.
68Charger
08-31-2018, 06:47
Who says I can't buy one? Now you pretend to know my financial situation too?
You're sure taking this real personally... the confirmation bias statement was meant as a general statement about people who Tesla worship.
I don't care about your financial situation, I don't care if you go buy a Tesla... you asked why I keep arguing- because you keep selling them, or at least the IDEA.
It's like crossfit for the automobile world. oh, and you keep referring to hate... I don't hate Tesla, I don't hate Elon Musk, I don't hate EVs... just because I don't buy into the idea, doesn't mean I hate.
BTW, I'm not buying the Ed Brown analogy, either... let me know when you'll carry one daily as a duty weapon AND you have to add a biometric lock to it, so it will only fire when the owner is holding it.
Everyone has bias. If someone tells you they're "unbiased", they're lying.
We're getting a little philosophical for a conversation about cars.
I'll expand on your comment because it's the big issue I have with EVs.
Tech will die faster than a lot of traditional components. "infotament" systems are a huge point of failure in every vehicle that uses them (search randomly for customer vehicle complaints for any vehicle that uses one), and if your screen doesn't work in a Tesla once Tesla itself stops providing them, you have a good chance of being toast [junkyards would likely even lose access to them as the #1 point of failure and a relatively short life compared to the car itself] If an independent manufacturer came in, maybe you could replace the screen. Once screens go out of vogue, and they will - you will even be screwed there most likely. [Say, try to buy a VCR right now]. App support is also preciously limited to a tiny slice of time. Imagine if computers were invented and installed in model T fords, and they included telegraph hookups to start the computer using high voltage signals in morse code. Yup, your cell phone isn't going to have an app for that anymore.
Computer components are ridiculously reliable - transistors, resisters, ICs, etc on an individual scale. But when you install thousands of reliable components to make a piece of hardware that requires they all function; and then make the car utilize itself voluminous amounts of those components, you turn individually reliable parts into a mass liability. Tesla is strange though, it's like a religion, because you can't have an objective conversation with a fan of the cult leader. Before they want to pile on me and say BULLSHIT, ELON WILL NEVER DIE; lets grasp your dissonance. Take a look at your cell phone people. Most people keep their phone more than a couple-three years; often replacing in that time-frame out of necessity. Want to place a bet on the odds the majority of your model of phone will completely and irrevocably brick up within a decade? That's why its not so great to make a much bigger cell phone with wheels. EV's are great, but a car maker needs to skip all the bullshit features and shoot for longevity, making an EV with minimal points of failure to satisfy the category of people like myself who aren't hedonistic.. Anymore it is almost unamerican to look forward (or even backward for that matter), which is probably why the product doesn't exist.
Unfortunately, there are plenty of examples to contradict your claims that the cars would be bricked if the screen goes dead. Let's assume you're right and Tesla is out of business by 2019, and screens start dying shortly thereafter.
It'll only be about six months before groups of talented enthusiasts will have found a workaround to replace the broken equipment. Why do I say this? Because there's a huge precedent for this already. There are all sorts of subcultures dedicated to keeping old technology functional. There are people who still fabricate new hardware and software for AMIGA PCs. There are groups of people who are still creating games for the original Nintendo Entertainment System. There are still people who write new software for the Apple Newton. There are people who refurbish and keep functional old Atari systems. Not that long ago, a group of hackers got together and were able to pull lost moon photos off of NASA data tapes that haven't had functional readers in nearly half a century. Hell, more military networks than you would care to know about depend on technology that is between 20-40 years old.
So, even working under your assumption that Tesla is going to be dead in some super short time frame, so long as there are people who like the technology, there will be enthusiasts and cottage industries that will spring up around keeping it functional.
Some of the Tesla owners have become reliant on using the app to open and start their vehicles. They left the key fob at home, because they became dependent on another option that they expected to always be available...and then it wasn't. Can you even accept that reality?
Please explain how someone failing to stick the Tesla fob in their wallet (it's intentionally designed to do so) is somehow a design fault on the part of Tesla.
We're getting a little philosophical for a conversation about cars.
Speaking as someone who spent more time than I care to admit working in the "news" industry, he's absolutely right.
68Charger
08-31-2018, 08:56
I'll just leave this here, I think it's pertinent- just where EVs with fancy tech doo-dads are on the graph is debatable.
75923
Musk claims to be "expanding production to profitability". Where are his new assembly lines? China. You don't run a third of your production out of temporary structures as a plan. That's desperation. When the shine wears off of Tesla, there will be many unhappy people.....or maybe I'm wrong. Let's see what happens.
They haven't even broken ground on the Chinese plants yet. Teardowns of the Model 3 have shown the vehicles to have a profit margin of 20+%. The biggest issue is that Tesla has burned through a lot of money getting to sustainably high (5-6k/wk) production numbers on the Model 3, and as a result, have to dig themselves out of a significant financial hole.
Running a single datacenter is just a ticking timebomb for full out failure- that's no DR plan whatsoever.
About redundancy: I worked on a project whose DR datacenters were fairly close to, and on either side of the San Andreas fault in the bay area.
Back in my DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) days we had a customer who ran DR datacenters in buildings 1 and 2 of the World Trade Center. In one day that company's personnel and data ceased to exist. :(
My last project had DR running between the bay area, Colorado Springs and Boise. In terms of disasters we talked earthquakes, nukes and volcanoes. :)
O2
Here is an article. It says that there are a million electric vehicle purchased a year world wide. Norway has reached 47% of new vehicle sales being electric, but they have special circumstances.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-08-31/electric-vehicles-in-california-their-day-will-come-suddenly?cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business
Here is an article. It says that there are a million electric vehicle purchased a year world wide. Norway has reached 47% of new vehicle sales being electric, but they have special circumstances.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-08-31/electric-vehicles-in-california-their-day-will-come-suddenly?cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business
Country Size Comparison (http://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/country-size-comparison/united-states/norway)
United States is about 30 times bigger than Norway.
Norway is approximately 323,802 sq km, while United States is approximately 9,833,517 sq km. Meanwhile, the population of Norway is ~5 million people (319 million more people live in United States). We have positioned the outline of Norway near your home location of Littleton, CO, US.
I love arguments comparing other regions of the world to applicability in the US.
"But in Japan...."
"But in Europe..."
It's estimated that 81.5 Million new cars will be sold worldwide this year. 1 Million EVs would put them at 1.2% of new vehicles sold.
The article was actually comparing Norway to California only. Not sure how much of a difference that makes, but it is a difference.
Then hopefully they'll never make it out of California.
Then hopefully they'll never make it out of California.
Who? The Norwegians?
Sure.
Sent from my electronic leash using Tapatalk
Here is an article. It says that there are a million electric vehicle purchased a year world wide. Norway has reached 47% of new vehicle sales being electric, but they have special circumstances.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-08-31/electric-vehicles-in-california-their-day-will-come-suddenly?cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business
Very surprising.
I know Volvo wants to do most electric to all electric at set goal year x. I was expecting Sweden would do that first.
Volvo Cars is a subsidiary of Chinese automotive company Geely.
Based on your thinking, wouldn't it be China that would do this first? [Coffee]
Sent from my electronic leash using Tapatalk
Volvo Cars is a subsidiary of Chinese automotive company Geely.
Based on your thinking, wouldn't it be China that would do this first? [Coffee]
Sent from my electronic leash using Tapatalk
Hey! Some people still buy Saab , because they make planes. :)
I miss Saab.
The real Saab, not the GM saab.
I bought a 900 brand new in Germany in 1984 right before I left. Sold it around 1990. Great reliable car.
I only had a little experience with a Saab 9-3. Any car manufacturer that puts turbos in cars gets my attention. Did you know that Chrysler (Dodge?) had a 5-speed, turbo, minivan? I want to say it was also AWD, but not sure.
68Charger
09-01-2018, 06:57
I only had a little experience with a Saab 9-3. Any car manufacturer that puts turbos in cars gets my attention. Did you know that Chrysler (Dodge?) had a 5-speed, turbo, minivan? I want to say it was also AWD, but not sure.
The AWD was always an automatic... and they never mated the AWD auto to the turbo 4cyl . The 5-speed minivans were rare and early models.
Sounds about right. One was traded in when I was working at Medved.
I only had a little experience with a Saab 9-3. Any car manufacturer that puts turbos in cars gets my attention. Did you know that Chrysler (Dodge?) had a 5-speed, turbo, minivan? I want to say it was also AWD, but not sure.
I always swore I would buy another one if they made an AWD model. Sadly that only happened after GM took over. By then, I had moved on.
It was a great car. Sold it with the original clutch and 120K on the clock despite the wife's driving habits.
68Charger
09-01-2018, 16:52
About redundancy: I worked on a project whose DR datacenters were fairly close to, and on either side of the San Andreas fault in the bay area.
Back in my DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) days we had a customer who ran DR datacenters in buildings 1 and 2 of the World Trade Center. In one day that company's personnel and data ceased to exist. :(
My last project had DR running between the bay area, Colorado Springs and Boise. In terms of disasters we talked earthquakes, nukes and volcanoes. :)
O2
Prime examples of redundancy without diversity... [facepalm] I've also seen well done diverse backup systems where the backup was not monitored... had been down for months when the primary failed.
Mention of DEC takes me back, did a lot of work with them over the years... and a customer with Datacenters in the WTC could have very well been one of our customers, too. That impacted lots of our customers, we worked our asses off before market open after 9/11... our backbone stayed up, but the LEC lost a complete CO in one of the buildings... virtually every customer had another circuit with a CLEC for diversity., but we had many customers back on redundant circuits before that first market day after.
Beancounters are the bane of properly diverse networks... always trying to consolidate equipment, circuits and buildings to save $$$. We'd ask them what would the cost to the company be if we are on the front page of the WSJ because a lack of diversity in the network caused the market to close?
There's also a tradeoff between latency and diversity... "of course the backup path has a higher latency, it can't take the shortest path- that's where the primary is" "no sir, we can't put it on the shortest path too... then they'd both be down right now" [facepalm]
After the first WTC attack in 1993, many of the financial institutions setup redundant systems across the river in New Jersey.
Close enough to be online and real-time, but far enough away to not be directly impacted at an infrastructure level by another attack. I doubt anyone expected to have their personnel impacted as it was in the second attack.
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