View Full Version : Shooting at a Synagogue in Pittsburgh
Grant H.
10-27-2018, 10:58
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46002549
For those that attend churches, it's time to have a security plan.
This is getting more common, and several churches I have visited have no idea how they would react.
UrbanWolf
10-27-2018, 11:49
And for each one of these highly publicized incident, the crazies take note of every vulnerable public areas that they can potential struck, schools, shopping centers, churches..... gun free zone just became more and more well known.
Grant H.
10-27-2018, 12:21
And for each one of these highly publicized incident, the crazies take note of every vulnerable public areas that they can potential struck, schools, shopping centers, churches..... gun free zone just became more and more well known.
True.
Very sadly, and unavoidably true.
Zundfolge
10-27-2018, 12:40
The church I attend is prepared. We have a team of volunteers that patrol during services (many are armed, although we don't really make a big deal about it). Also there are many people that attend who are armed. I almost feel sorry for someone that would attempt a mass casualty event at our church ... almost.
The problem we have is consistency with certain people attending on an irregular basis. On most days we are probably good to stop a single shooter in the lobby. On other days we are very light and I stand by the door.
Then some Sundays... Wow.
It's really the only place I frequent that I don't feel safe and I'm not sure have the best security plan would change that feeling.
Grant H.
10-27-2018, 13:52
The problem we have is consistency with certain people attending on an irregular basis. On most days we are probably good to stop a single shooter in the lobby. On other days we are very light and I stand by the door.
Then some Sundays... Wow.
It's really the only place I frequent that I don't feel safe and I'm not sure have the best security plan would change that feeling.
We run into the same thing with attendance, and as such, those of us that are in the leadership group try to schedule things as best as possible.
On the weeks when we are short, I do the same thing of standing by the door or being up and moving through the building. We also have camera's that several of us are tapped into and watching off/on through the service.
Bottom line, do I think we are setup as best as can be? Nope. But it's better than several of the churches I have visited.
Fortunately, I think that any level of armed resistance tends to end mass shooting attempts pretty quickly. Like you guys have said, better than other places.
[snip]
Bottom line, do I think we are setup as best as can be? Nope. But it's better than several of the churches I have visited.
I don't think we can ever be 100% prepared.
We had the luxury of an FBI agent to come in an assess everything last year. We did everything he advised us to do with respect to facilities/improvements; updated security system with new cameras, creating one entry point, adding second locks on some doors, adding lighting in certain places.
But the human factor is our variable.
Fortunately, I think that any level of armed resistance tends to end mass shooting attempts pretty quickly. Like you guys have said, better than other places.
LIKE
Projection of violence/balance or force and all that.
hollohas
10-27-2018, 14:17
Many programs are sponsored by local sheriff departments to help places of worship make a plan. JeffCo's is called Security in Faith. They run quarterly meetings and an annual summit. On top of that, they will send a deputy to your church to work with your security team or give advice for starting one. The Jeffco SD even used my church building a while back so they could train for these sorts of events. They told us after where all the major problem areas and challenges were to securing our building.
There is another program sponsored by the US Attorneys office called Protecting Houses of Worship that can help.
Many of the insurance companies that cover churches will also provide support and resources to help develop strong church security plans. Some are free services, others cost money. Money well spent IMO.
Many churches talk about or even create actual plans for these sorts of events. They may even bring all the leaders in and give each particular responsibilities. They have volunteers run "security" or create entire teams. Some even paid. But the major mistake I think most make is they never do walkthroughs or simulations. I'm not talking about live fire simulations or anything like that, I'm just saying something as basic as a fire drill. One Saturday bring all the volunteers and and run drills. Make sure the kids ministry folks know how to actually use the special door locks the church has purchased. Make people actually use the radios to raise an alarm and coordinate. If they are a smaller church and don't have that, make the volunteers go through the process of notifying others that there is a threat. Walkthrough your written security plan from start to finish, actually role playing like something is happening.
Talking and planning are good first steps, but plans are more likely to fail without training.
callerys
10-27-2018, 14:31
Our church in Castle Rock is a gun free zone unless you are LE.
Grant H.
10-27-2018, 14:36
Our church in Castle Rock is a gun free zone unless you are LE.
I would politely suggest that you work towards changing that.
hurley842002
10-27-2018, 15:00
Our church in Castle Rock is a gun free zone unless you are LE.
I hope there are large signs posted so the bad guys will know not to come in with their guns...
Zundfolge
10-27-2018, 15:01
Fortunately, I think that any level of armed resistance tends to end mass shooting attempts pretty quickly.
I agree, most mass shooters are operating in a fantasy world where they're "The God of Death" and the instant they meet any armed resistance, that fantasy falls apart and many of them will stop and eat their own gun at that point (basically what happened at New life, and many other shootings).
I would politely suggest that you work towards changing that.
I would impolitely suggest a person leave a "church" that stands against Christ's teachings and neglects the duty Christians have. If they are in error to the degree that they believe Christianity is a suicide pact, one has to wonder what other errors are being taught/practiced.
But that's just me...
Grant H.
10-27-2018, 15:40
I would impolitely suggest a person leave a "church" that stands against Christ's teachings and neglects the duty Christians have. If they are in error to the degree that they believe Christianity is a suicide pact, one has to wonder what other errors are being taught/practiced.
But that's just me...
Fair points, but if they can be instrumental in bringing a change about that fixes some of it, that might be the starting point for other necessary changes.
It astounds me how many folks are believers who believe that pacifism is the "biblical" path.
I head up the parking lot crew at our church. While I've heard many are "packing" in the services, I'm the only one outside. We also hire 3 sheriff's for traffic control, off the main streets onto the property, they also park their vehicles at the main entrances and sit in the lobby just outside the sanctuary during the services. We do have coffee and donuts for them:D
Great-Kazoo
10-27-2018, 16:12
It astounds me how many folks are believers who believe that pacifism is the "biblical" path.
The only thing the Meek will inherit is Dirt .
I attend a large downtown church. The "security" team is unarmed other than one usher that carries on his own. The administrator gives him a hard time about it. Other than that there is one full time security guard and sometimes one cop on traffic duty. Totally insufficient. Supposedly, the church is working on a better plan. Until then we are on our own carrying.
BPTactical
10-27-2018, 16:35
Right on time to ignite the anti gun vote.
.455_Hunter
10-27-2018, 16:37
Our church in Castle Rock is a gun free zone unless you are LE.
So how does that work exactly?
Policy in the church handbook? Metal detectors? Safety via virtue signaling?
What happens if you blow them off? Excommunication?
callerys
10-27-2018, 16:46
So how does that work exactly?
Policy in the church handbook? Metal detectors? Safety via virtue signaling?
What happens if you blow them off? Excommunication?
No idea. Sign posted on front door says only sworn officers are allowed to be armed.
I dont care what the sign says as concealed is concealed.
.455_Hunter
10-27-2018, 16:55
Sign posted on front door says only sworn officers are allowed to be armed.
I dont care what the sign says as concealed is concealed.
That's good. Thank you for putting you and your family's safety above the small minded church leadership.
The group that Lt. Col. Dave Grossman runs, Sheepdog Safety has a seminar in Pueblo on November 16th.
http://www.sheepdogsafetytraining.com/what-we-do/
http://www.sheepdogsafetytraining.com/pueblo-colorado-friday-november-16-2018/
The only thing the Meek will inherit is Dirt .
Meekness != weakness. Meekness is essentially "strength restrained" (I think CS Lewis was the one who came up with that phrasing).
I would impolitely suggest a person leave a "church" that stands against Christ's teachings and neglects the duty Christians have. If they are in error to the degree that they believe Christianity is a suicide pact, one has to wonder what other errors are being taught/practiced.
But that's just me...
Indeed:
Legitimate defense
2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65
2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:
If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm#I
The footnotes reference: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3064.htm#article7
Right on time to ignite the anti gun vote.
Took the words right out of my head.
Zundfolge
10-27-2018, 18:32
Meekness != weakness. Meekness is essentially "strength restrained" (I think CS Lewis was the one who came up with that phrasing).
The original Greek word used by Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount is πραεῖς (praotēs) which according to Strong's Concordance means: Properly temperate, displaying the right blend of force and reserve (gentleness). "Strength in Gentleness", avoids unnecessary harshness, yet without compromising or being too slow to use necessary force.
In other Greek literature of the time its used to describe an expert swordsman that is not too quick to draw his sword.
Meekness != weakness. Meekness is essentially "strength restrained" (I think CS Lewis was the one who came up with that phrasing).
Indeed:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm#I
The footnotes reference: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3064.htm#article7
Are you talking about this CS Lewis quote:
“The knight is a man of blood and iron, a man familiar with the sight of smashed faces and the ragged stumps of lopped-off limbs; he is also a demure, almost a maidenlike, guest in hall, a gentle, modest, unobtrusive man. He is not a compromise or happy mean between ferocity and meekness; he is fierce to the nth and meek to the nth.”
Jordan Peterson on Meekness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v52DkzGWlrQ
Those that have weapons and keep them sheathed shall inherit the earth
Another commentary by a pastor on meekness, rebutting Peterson's work in some ways - I haven't watched the entire video yet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ubXYHpI3K8
One has to be careful trying to derive interpreted meaning from the translated Bible. It's best to go back to the source documents due to limitations within the English language.
ETA: One common example is the use of the word "love" in English translations. Ancient Greek had many words for 'love' (like Agape, Eros, Philia, Storge) and their meanings are unique.
Right on time to ignite the anti gun vote.
Yep. I saw a lot of posts on Facebook that was predicting a shooting would occur in very short order. Sadly enough...they were right. At this point, I think it would be fair to increase security anywhere a shooting may occur that would further the leftist ideals during a political campaign (schools, churches, malls, etc.).
Reading into the proximity of a shooting to an election is just as stupid as believing rain on your wedding day means you'll get a divorce. Laugh out loud level of stupid.
Great-Kazoo
10-28-2018, 09:41
Reading into the proximity of a shooting to an election is just as stupid as believing rain on your wedding day means you'll get a divorce. Laugh out loud level of stupid.
However the odds of a shooting or other "agenda driven event" is never impossible. Take the travelers coming from honduras as an example. Mexico offered them asylum BUT..........NOoo the ones still going have refused that offer.
Hence IMO an agenda based incident, sponsored by who knows? As that money has been washed more than a hippie in the rain at woodstock.
Fair points, but if they can be instrumental in bringing a change about that fixes some of it, that might be the starting point for other necessary changes.
It astounds me how many folks are believers who believe that pacifism is the "biblical" path.
I think it's a fundamental belief, but that's just my perception.
The finer, nuanced things can certainly be worked out but creating a burden to accept serious physical harm/death is a big deal. If pastor wants to put a box around force under that narrow situation, fine. For example, I would never use lethal force to recover/protect property. OTOH if it's my house and family is in it that's different.
Are we going to start talking about a slowing housing market as a political agenda too? Fluctuating stock market? Is the new moon on election day a conspiracy by the GOP to prevent people who are too poor to afford flashlights from voting?
Great-Kazoo
10-28-2018, 10:09
Are we going to start talking about a slowing housing market as a political agenda too? Fluctuating stock market? Is the new moon on election day a conspiracy by the GOP to prevent people who are too poor to afford flashlights from voting?
To date the left still believes the GOP has and is conspiring to prevent "minorities" from voting by denying them the opportunity to get to the polls as well as demand they show I.D. Using the tired excuse "well they don't have transportation to get to the motor vehicles office". Or they can't find a birth certificate. Ask them how it is they were able to sign up for soc sec, WIC, and other .gov programs they say "well that's different"
So there will always be some sort of conspiracy, somewhere by some .org.
One has to be careful trying to derive interpreted meaning from the translated Bible. It's best to go back to the source documents due to limitations within the English language.
ETA: One common example is the use of the word "love" in English translations. Ancient Greek had many words for 'love' (like Agape, Eros, Philia, Storge) and their meanings are unique.
Agreed, there are a lot of things in translated bibles that I have questions about, good example there Gman.
To date the left still believes the GOP has and is conspiring to prevent "minorities" from voting by denying them the opportunity to get to the polls as well as demand they show I.D. Using the tired excuse "well they don't have transportation to get to the motor vehicles office". Or they can't find a birth certificate. Ask them how it is they were able to sign up for soc sec, WIC, and other .gov programs they say "well that's different"
So there will always be some sort of conspiracy, somewhere by some .org.
Yup.
BushMasterBoy
10-28-2018, 14:26
Pennsylvania death penalty involves a needle. Speedy trial. If convicted, live stream it on youtube. Or maybe pay per view...
68Charger
10-28-2018, 15:25
Pennsylvania death penalty involves a needle. Speedy trial. If convicted, live stream it on youtube. Or maybe pay per view...
This seems like it would be a deterrent, but it's not to everyone.
A normal person would avoid the behavior that gets them publicly shamed and killed. Some cluster B personalities would see it as an opportunity to become imfamous. A better deterrent for them is nobody even noticing you forever...
This seems like it would be a deterrent, but it's not to everyone.
A normal person would avoid the behavior that gets them publicly shamed and killed. Some cluster B personalities would see it as an opportunity to become imfamous. A better deterrent for them is nobody even noticing you forever...
Could make a show out of it like all the criminal trial shows on Netflix.
The attack on the social media tool Gab and their response.
https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2018/10/27/gab-addresses-social-media-posts-likely-by-synagogue-killer/ (https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2018/10/27/gab-addresses-social-media-posts-likely-by-synagogue-killer/)
Gab, the free-speech centered social media platform, has issued a statement on Robert Bowers, the man believed to be behind a shooting today in a synagogue in Pittsburgh. Bowers was believed to have had an account (http://archive.is/PT44O) on Gab where he posted anti-semitic and anti-Trump comments.
FYI-he’s being prosecuted under federal law not state so Pennsylvania’s method isn’t an issue. However the last 3 federal prisoners were all lethal injection executions. Too bad this shitbag wasn’t killed, nothing to learn from him.
Reading into the proximity of a shooting to an election is just as stupid as believing rain on your wedding day means you'll get a divorce. Laugh out loud level of stupid.
This is just my opinion, so take it for want it's worth. I believe it's naive to think it's unlikely or impossible that an individual or group is not capable of orchestrating a terrorist event near an election in an attempt to influence said election. It also seems silly to compare a terrorist event that was planned and executed by an individual to an act of God at a wedding. If your statement was meant to be humorous, I apologize for thinking you were being serious.
glocktoberfest
10-28-2018, 20:23
I head up the parking lot crew at our church. While I've heard many are "packing" in the services, I'm the only one outside. We also hire 3 sheriff's for traffic control, off the main streets onto the property, they also park their vehicles at the main entrances and sit in the lobby just outside the sanctuary during the services. We do have coffee and donuts for them:DChcc? That sounds familiar
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Some cluster B personalities would see it as an opportunity to become imfamous. A better deterrent for them is nobody even noticing you forever...
I still say that mass shootings would end overnight if the authorites never released the name of the shooter or if the media decided they would no longer publish any information about the shooter.
I'm being very serious. This issue seems so simple to me, that I'm completely astounded that no one seems to understand what I'm trying to express, or are being willfully obtuse about the matter.
Let me try again. People bitch about the media laying everything that happens in this country at Trump's feet just because he's the president right now. That is completely ridiculous and plenty of people on here and elsewhere can easily point out how utterly stupid that suggestion is.
At the same time, I've watched people on here try to write off every mass shooting since what Aurora? Sandy Hook? probably earlier, as a perfectly timed coincidence and suggest, if not outright declare, that it was orchestrated by some form of leftist faction or another.
There is never any evidence to support either accusation and for someone to disagree with one accusation, but then turn around and lay out another that is equally as dumb seems embarrassingly hypocritical to me. How poisoned are people's minds that they just can't fathom events happening outside of the direct influence of whatever current political climate?
Now we're talking about predictions this would happen? Some mug "predicted" an increasingly common event to happen within some unknown proximity of another common event? Big deal. We don't go 12 months between mass shootings that get national media attention and we have an election cycle every 2 years. Don't forget about the 18 months before the election where everything starts gearing up for it.
I had more to say but it doesn't matter. I get that some things are directly politically motivated, and some things don't pass the sniff test (recent pipe bomb thing), but the level of mental complacency that it takes to automatically file away every event as a conspiracy orchestrated by your political enemies is frightening and embarrassing.
68Charger
10-28-2018, 21:33
What post are you even referring to?
I see a lot more discussion going on that what you're focusing on.
Perhaps you should address the plank in your eye.
68Charger
10-28-2018, 21:50
Yeah that's probably it.
You're being awfully serious for San Destin, Florida.... must have really changed since I was there in '96 [flamingo]
There was a real dive bar there that remember... good food, a real surprise for a place that you had to walk down a "plank" because it was floating, or made to look like it... but I can't recall the name.
OtterbatHellcat
10-28-2018, 21:50
He's answering Big E3, and he has some points worth some thought at the very least.
Ain't nobody gotta agree with anything, but it sure doesn't hurt to think about stuff either.
BushMasterBoy
10-28-2018, 22:02
Wiki report below. Used an AR and 3 Glocks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_synagogue_shooting
I've read almost every post since I joined the site and noticed that I've become sensitive to the rhythm and currents of an ongoing conversation that we've all been having for years now. I pendulum from intellectual boredom to a level of frustration that makes my head throb. When I see particularly idiotic comments (with zero push back from other members) or a thread starts swirling the bowl into a predictable nose dive right into a full-potato patch, I lose control of that frustration and spew out a rant that has been building for years. Within the immediate context of a single thread, it almost always ends up sounding like either social justice warrior style bitch-whining or the ramblings of a madman. It doesn't help that I'm usually low on sleep whenever I show my ass, like today.
Hope that clears things up.
ETA: You'd think that I'd learn that not everyone is viewing the site from 10,000 feet and may actually come to a thread for specific information about an event. Someday. Carry on.
68Charger
10-28-2018, 22:17
I've read almost every post since I joined the site and noticed that I've become sensitive to the rhythm and currents of an ongoing conversation that we've all been having for years now. I pendulum from intellectual boredom to a level of frustration that makes my head throb. When I see particularly idiotic comments (with zero push back from other members) or a thread starts swirling the bowl into a predictable nose dive right into a full-potato patch, I lose control of that frustration and spew out a rant that has been building for years. Within the immediate context of a single thread, it almost always ends up sounding like either social justice warrior style bitch-whining or the ramblings of a madman. It doesn't help that I'm usually low on sleep whenever I show my ass, like today.
Hope that clears things up.
Sometimes there is zero push back because it's ignored.
When I was in San Destin, there was a real lack of sleep and testing of various sorts because I had recently started with a new company and went to their national convention... some senior engineers would test new engineers in creative ways like drinking contests. Good times
I'll venture to guess yours is work related, but not the same way.
It's all good
Lots of hurricane damage. Sorry I derailed this thread everyone. Back to it.
I understood where you were coming from. Not everything is a conspiracy.
But just because you're not paranoid, that doesn't mean they're not coming for you. ;-)
Law abiding gun owners also don't want people to shoot up schools or churches, but that doesn't stop the left from making the assertion that mass shootings are the fault of NRA/Trump/Republican/anybody that appreciates the value of the true intent of the 2nd Amendment.
They also seem to happen in clustered numbers, so one gets to thinking about timing. If they happened as often as shootings in the leftist bastion of Chicago, maybe everyone would ignore them.
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They also seem to happen in clustered numbers, so one gets to thinking about timing. If they happened as often as shootings in the leftist bastion of Chicago, maybe everyone would ignore them.
This was the point I was aiming for on my reply to this thread. Irving chose to call it a "particularly idiotic comment" and "LOL level of stupid". At least that's what I took from it.
Rucker61
10-29-2018, 06:51
I still say that mass shootings would end overnight if the authorites never released the name of the shooter or if the media decided they would no longer publish any information about the shooter.
Other than a video of the shooter being run through a woodchipper feet first.
I've read almost every post since I joined the site and noticed that I've become sensitive to the rhythm and currents of an ongoing conversation that we've all been having for years now. I pendulum from intellectual boredom to a level of frustration that makes my head throb. When I see particularly idiotic comments (with zero push back from other members) or a thread starts swirling the bowl into a predictable nose dive right into a full-potato patch, I lose control of that frustration and spew out a rant that has been building for years. Within the immediate context of a single thread, it almost always ends up sounding like either social justice warrior style bitch-whining or the ramblings of a madman. It doesn't help that I'm usually low on sleep whenever I show my ass, like today.
Hope that clears things up.
ETA: You'd think that I'd learn that not everyone is viewing the site from 10,000 feet and may actually come to a thread for specific information about an event. Someday. Carry on.
Truly we are blessed to have someone of your intellectual capacity participating here. It's truly unfortunate that the membership so often has difficulty parsing your wisdom.
Other than a video of the shooter being run through a woodchipper feet first.
LIKE
Or at least, similar method of murder. Put it on YouTube (age restricted). Let everyone see how the story ends.
I was talking about this with some Catholic immigrants Sat night before we knew all the details... They asked what would happen and I said probably life. I tried to explain that this is why the death penalty is important (Commie Pope!). Murdering one is the same as murdering a dozen, so we can't create adequate disincentive.
IMHO, this "unintended consequence" is purposeful.
I understood where you were coming from. Not everything is a conspiracy.
[snip]
I can't cover all the bases, but will say I still think Sandy Hook stinks.
With this Synagogue shooting? Too early to know everything, but he appears to be the half of white supremacists/Nazis that aren't informants/Federal agents and exercised his hate.
I think people who seek validation through violence key into the national psyche to maximize exposure. I think sometimes they exploit timing/politics and other times are very political themselves (e.g. James Holmes). So in this sense it actually is a conspiracy, a conspiracy of one.
Are you talking about this CS Lewis quote:
Jordan Peterson on Meekness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v52DkzGWlrQ
Another commentary by a pastor on meekness, rebutting Peterson's work in some ways - I haven't watched the entire video yet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ubXYHpI3K8
In Matthew 5 Jesus is quoting Psalm 36 (or 37 depending on which numbering you follow). The Hebrew word there is Strong's 6035, Anav:
Strong's Concordance
anav: poor, afflicted, humble, meek
Original Word: עָנָו
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: anav
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-nawv')
Definition: poor, afflicted, humble, meek
Obviously within the commanded history of Israel, God does not demand they keep their swords sheathed at all times.
Within the New Testament context we see Christ telling the Apostles to have swords -- presumably for legitimate self defense. That Jesus tells Peter to put his sword back in the sheath is contextually pertinent for the fulfillment of prophecy, but is not a general rule as some unfortunately exegise.
I'd disagree with the pastor that in the Catholic interpretation Abraham is an archetype acting solely within Natural Law, and that Natural (that is, according to Nature) man is found in Abraham par excellence. Abraham both is himself and also an type (or archetype if you will) of Christ. I'm honestly a bit surprised he would believe that to be the Catholic position, as it's very clear that Abraham is even in that position because of Faith and the outflowing reality of Faith (see the epistle of James where he says it is not by faith alone [the only place in the bible where those two words are linked, and it's in the negative]): works.
If we are to view Abraham as a sort of king, it's not only Abraham's natural duty to defend his own, but his supernatural duty as his kin are his precisely by the promise of God and Abraham's acting in accordance with the Faith by which he was imputed justification (several times, actually). Abraham was essentially the local government. Hence, we know by extension that all governments have a duty to defend citizens.
This is important for the argument of self-defense. It actually is the hinge joining the frame of rights and the door of duty. All have a right to self-defense, but some have a duty. Rights can be foregone whereas duties must be obeyed. Meekness, as a virtue, cannot be an excuse to shirk a duty since both exist within the framework of necessity. So it would be incorrect for someone to interpret that my "sword" (firearm) MUST be sheathed regardless of the circumstance when I have a duty to defend. Conversely, if I have a mere right to defend and no duty, I can cast aside that allowable action for a greater good. But in the framework of duty, the greater good is contained within the duty itself. For example, the shooting in Florida where the Sheriff just cowered outside... he shirked duty (at least morally, despite whatever claptrap the courts have decided on duty to protect). By taking that job and putting on that uniform, he should have been inside regardless of concern for his own personal safety. Were he a private citizen, he might rightly be seen as a coward for not going in, but he would have had no duty.
Meekness then can only apply to rights of individual dignity and not duties to self and others, at least insofar as application of force: that gets into clemency which Aquinas places as a sub-species of temperance. Therefore, one may or may not choose to exercise a right, but in the context of duty, there is no wiggle room. As such, it is within the implication of restraint within meekness that duty sometimes demands not only clearing leather, but going hot until you're empty.
Hilarious example with the reverse problem: The parable of the rich man entering heaven being akin to passing a camel through a needle, everyone is familiar with it (nonreligious atheist or religious), and what a bizarre analogy to make if you think about it - akin to saying things today like "Well, that's easier than opening a can of beans with a flying 747!" or "... easier than dialing a rotary phone with a Nintendo!" While all are in essence, proper parables in that the task would be impossible, they are also absolute gibberish.
The correct translation from Aramaic is "... than passing a rope through a needle", rope and camel share the same origin word in that language. As does something like doorframe if memory serves correctly. (or is it windowframe, I forget anymore). In the context, the translation to camel (or alternatively, doorframe) is so flatly wrong that nobody would have understood it that way in the origin language, and yet, that is how it appears in all of our translations today.
Not necessarily. That claim is from St. Cyril of Alexandria, but similar sayings exist within Jewish tradition in the Talmud and midrash on scripture. Either way, the essential meaning is the same.
Further, the passage isn't about physical possessions per se, but attachment to them.
Truly we are blessed to have someone of your intellectual capacity participating here. It's truly unfortunate that the membership so often has difficulty parsing your wisdom.
Lol, ouch. Deserved.
In Matthew 5 Jesus is quoting Psalm 36 (or 37 depending on which numbering you follow). The Hebrew word there is Strong's 6035, Anav:
Obviously within the commanded history of Israel, God does not demand they keep their swords sheathed at all times.
Within the New Testament context we see Christ telling the Apostles to have swords -- presumably for legitimate self defense. That Jesus tells Peter to put his sword back in the sheath is contextually pertinent for the fulfillment of prophecy, but is not a general rule as some unfortunately exegise.
I'd disagree with the pastor that in the Catholic interpretation Abraham is an archetype acting solely within Natural Law, and that Natural (that is, according to Nature) man is found in Abraham par excellence. Abraham both is himself and also an type (or archetype if you will) of Christ. I'm honestly a bit surprised he would believe that to be the Catholic position, as it's very clear that Abraham is even in that position because of Faith and the outflowing reality of Faith (see the epistle of James where he says it is not by faith alone [the only place in the bible where those two words are linked, and it's in the negative]): works.
If we are to view Abraham as a sort of king, it's not only Abraham's natural duty to defend his own, but his supernatural duty as his kin are his precisely by the promise of God and Abraham's acting in accordance with the Faith by which he was imputed justification (several times, actually). Abraham was essentially the local government. Hence, we know by extension that all governments have a duty to defend citizens.
This is important for the argument of self-defense. It actually is the hinge joining the frame of rights and the door of duty. All have a right to self-defense, but some have a duty. Rights can be foregone whereas duties must be obeyed. Meekness, as a virtue, cannot be an excuse to shirk a duty since both exist within the framework of necessity. So it would be incorrect for someone to interpret that my "sword" (firearm) MUST be sheathed regardless of the circumstance when I have a duty to defend. Conversely, if I have a mere right to defend and no duty, I can cast aside that allowable action for a greater good. But in the framework of duty, the greater good is contained within the duty itself. For example, the shooting in Florida where the Sheriff just cowered outside... he shirked duty (at least morally, despite whatever claptrap the courts have decided on duty to protect). By taking that job and putting on that uniform, he should have been inside regardless of concern for his own personal safety. Were he a private citizen, he might rightly be seen as a coward for not going in, but he would have had no duty.
Meekness then can only apply to rights of individual dignity and not duties to self and others, at least insofar as application of force: that gets into clemency which Aquinas places as a sub-species of temperance. Therefore, one may or may not choose to exercise a right, but in the context of duty, there is no wiggle room. As such, it is within the implication of restraint within meekness that duty sometimes demands not only clearing leather, but going hot until you're empty.
That is really good CavSct1983, once again I am the student. Thank you.
The context of Peterson's statement, at least the way I hear it, is that we keep our swords sheathed until we need them, but Peterson didn't come out and say that. I think that is what Jesus counselled Peter on, there is a time and a place, and now it neither the time or the place.
The statement on duty is fantastic.
I like that statement on meekness too.
Outside of a small group of say, five people, a conspiracy of any kind becomes virtually impossible thanks to the modern American. People with TSC's can't even keep secrets anymore,
This is fundamentally untrue, at least for the 1 million+ contractors, government, and military people whose daily work requires them to handle classified data.
The only people who seem to get away with leaking classified information and suffering no repurcussions are the the ones who get top cover from the entities that should be responsible for prosecuting and punishing such transgressions.
I don't know if this will add anything to this thread, but I've never in my life, nor now, have been able to understand antisemitism.
I've only ever encountered it in the movies and in social media. I honestly really don't understand it at all. Take this guy for example complaining about being tired of Jews killing people. What the hell is he even talking about?
Rucker61
10-29-2018, 20:05
I don't know if this will add anything to this thread, but I've never in my life, nor now, have been able to understand antisemitism.
I've only ever encountered it in the movies and in social media. I honestly really don't understand it at all. Take this guy for example complaining about being tired of Jews killing people. What the hell is he even talking about?
Hear, hear. I just don't get it. All I can think of is an inferiority complex, which I think drives most racism.
Hear, hear. I just don't get it. All I can think of is an inferiority complex, which I think drives most racism.
I agree. I see a lot of stuff about Jews running things, but I've only been able to view that through the lens of that's what happens when people ignore outside bullshit and get after it in life. Meanwhile, a bunch of people incapable of doing anything for themselves look around and see a bunch of Jews kicking ass and taking names and all the sudden they are the enemy. Problem is, that seems like a modern interpretation and it seems like Jews have been hated all over, for a long time. I just don't get it.
There are plenty of accounts and books and whatever of people that have gotten sucked in White Supremacist groups. From what I remember it is very similar to joining a gang where you don't really feel like you belong, then all the sudden you find a group willing to accept you so join along and finally start feeling good about yourself and gaining some confidence. I think Rogan had an ex-supremacist guy on his podcast once.
Our church in Castle Rock is a gun free zone unless you are LE.
It's too bad that guns don't read signs.
Great-Kazoo
10-29-2018, 21:24
There are plenty of accounts and books and whatever of people that have gotten sucked in White Supremacist groups. From what I remember it is very similar to joining a gang where you don't really feel like you belong, then all the sudden you find a group willing to accept you so join along and finally start feeling good about yourself and gaining some confidence. I think Rogan had an ex-supremacist guy on his podcast once.
Kind of like a fraternity, only with less monthly dues ;)
Rucker61
10-30-2018, 04:48
Kind of like a fraternity, only with less monthly dues ;)
And uglier chicks.
It's hard to accept that life sucks and there's no valid reason justification or explanation for it. A lot of people struggle with that fundamental matter, in different ways.
I think this is the biggest problem with many, many people.
Life really sucks if a person doesn't take responsibility for their own actions.
Change comes from within.
Only a fraction of a fraction leak to the media.
What kind of percentage do you want to bet don't follow the box a TSC proscribes?
What percentage tells things to a spouse?
A parent?
A sibling?
A close friend?
All those are prohibited. Even if disclosures are considered less important/unimportant by the person with the clearance. Suffice to say, people are not as tight lipped about things today as they used to be. I'd venture a guess more than 50% of people with a TSC have shared things protected by that TSC with a spouse.
So no, it's not "fundamentally untrue" it's just not the whole picture. (And I don't doubt you deny this as well, but I don't expect people with a TSC to be objective in admitting anything...)
So, on the one hand, we have all of the people who've gone through the process of being vetted for a clearance, and who presumably take seriously that they're entrusted with knowledge that, if it were to get out, could cost them their livlihood, reputation, and freedom, as well as the national security stance of the USA and lives of fellow Americans, and on the other hand you have a general, but unverifiable belief that everyone talks because you once read a listicle on IFL Science or something, that stated that secrets can't be contained by a group if it has more than five people.
The fact that plenty of companies manage to keep proprietary information under wraps, defense contractors, government, and military keep classified information from leaking would tend to show that, indeed, large groups of people can, and do, regularly keep secrets. One would tend to expect that the higher the stakes in any given situation, the more likely they would be to keep their mouth shut.
Aloha_Shooter
10-30-2018, 09:46
Outside of a small group of say, five people, a conspiracy of any kind becomes virtually impossible thanks to the modern American. People with TSC's can't even keep secrets anymore, yet people think hundreds of ANTIFA foaming liberals can?
I will agree with you in so far as I don't believe in large conspiracies but that's a different from protecting classified information and your charge that people with TSCs can't keep secrets is just false. It's true that a small number of visible glory-seekers have betrayed their oaths and done large amounts of grave damage to national security but you paint with far-too-wide a brush (or roller).
This is fundamentally untrue, at least for the 1 million+ contractors, government, and military people whose daily work requires them to handle classified data.
The only people who seem to get away with leaking classified information and suffering no repurcussions are the the ones who get top cover from the entities that should be responsible for prosecuting and punishing such transgressions.
Agreed.
Only a fraction of a fraction leak to the media.
What kind of percentage do you want to bet don't follow the box a TSC proscribes?
What percentage tells things to a spouse?
A parent?
A sibling?
A close friend?
All those are prohibited. Even if disclosures are considered less important/unimportant by the person with the clearance. Suffice to say, people are not as tight lipped about things today as they used to be. I'd venture a guess more than 50% of people with a TSC have shared things protected by that TSC with a spouse.
I'd say your guess is grossly incorrect and fundamentally untrue as Justin said but then I don't expect people with an axe to bear to be objective in assessing anything either ...
I'd say life generally sucks for just about everybody, for a good portion of their life, (some for their entire life), some far, far worse than others, and taking responsibility for ones own actions usually may have little to do with it. Where and whom you were born to can matter an impressive amount. Genetics matter even more. This is the dilemma that people have to deal with and clashes with fundamental ingrained beliefs about government and religion, and it's about as shocking to the psyche as anything can be.
e.g.
If your sibling gets in a car crash and is on life support, you may fall into religion to "fix" your sibling. Yet, they perish anyway after months in a coma.
If you get terminal cancer in your early twenties, you may fall into trusting religion to cure you and let you continue life, and at the end of your life, you still have the same terminal cancer.
If you get raped, you may fall into trusting the gov't to respond and catch the perpetrator. Yet, it gets twisted around and morphs into a grotesque monster in the legal system.
Someone sues you frivolously, you may fall into trusting the legal system to do it's job and throw it out promptly. Yet, it is another grotesque monster in the legal system and you lose all your assets (to attorneys, or judgement, or whatever)..
Someone burglarizes your home and burns it down, you may fall into trusting the system to restore you (insurance) and the gov't to catch them (justice) yet both fail you and you are virtually homeless for a couple years.
You develop a critical genetic disease. Whelp, not your fault. You might trust something to develop medicine or a cure, but when it doesn't happen...
These are just a few examples.
Personal responsibility doesn't really enter into these equations - it does others. But it's these that entrap "normal" "healthy" people into the hard psychological question that is easiest answered by falling upon "EVERYTHING IS A CONSPIRACY" mind-think. Or any alternative explanation (it's their own fault) or ancient explanations (they are cursed, they sinned, etc.)
The alternative is worse:
1) People you love are going to die and you have no control over it.
2) You're going to die and you have no control over it.
3) You live within a broken political, legal, and government system, which will do nothing it promised for you when you need it most.
4) Life's not fair, no, but - really.
5) Existence may be inconsequential.
Certainly, there are people that don't take personal responsibility in life that breed deeper problems; but the majority of the worst suckage of life oft cannot legitimately be blamed on anything at all, and psychology seems to need something to blame or explain it away.
I was thinking on the small scale, you're in the macro and you're right.
There are plenty of accounts and books and whatever of people that have gotten sucked in White Supremacist groups.
[snip]
https://media1.tenor.com/images/7d65912c4d7eb515d3cab03ae24af118/tenor.gif
Lol, whoops. Auto correct is killing me today. I'm need to log off for a while, my posting has even been annoying me lately.
Lol, whoops. Auto correct is killing me today. I'm need to log off for a while, my posting has even been annoying me lately.
It was funny man, I lol'd. [LOL]
And it was needed levity.
If they happened as often as shootings in the leftist bastion of Chicago, maybe everyone would ignore them.
Just checked the Chicago stats for October: 43 shot and killed, 195 shot and wounded.
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