Neighborhood Drone

[<MADDOG>]

Gentlemen, I have in-laws in FL with a neighbor drone problem...

LEO contacted, no law on books in locality.

Cost effective ideas to effectively stop a drone flying at approximately 50 ft. off the ground, and firearms are not permitted.

[20X11]

Wrist rocket sling shot?

[Fentonite]

Will a Super Soaker spray that high?

[ray1970]

My vote goes for a potato cannon.

[JohnnyEgo]

If they are flying within the constraints of FAA regulations and local ordinances, you have no legal recourse for whatever actions you choose to interfere with the drone in operation. 'You' being the generic 'you'. People may find themselves in a world of Federal hurt for downing a drone in an unsafe manner, in addition to any civil or criminal property damage statutes. It's just a fact. Your best bet is to talk to the individual, or see if they are violating the regs or local ordinances. You can look up your in-laws address on Airmap or Skyvector to see if the airspace is legal to fly in. Amongst other things, I am a licensed commercial drone operator.

[ray1970]

Or another drone to battle with the offending drone. Like an old school dogfight.

[JohnnyEgo]

That would make for an epic YouTube video.

[kidicarus13]

.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/fb6b990232a576307f8150db328436ce.jpg

[00tec]

Buy bigger drone and hang a net from it. Fly over little drone and drag the net across the props.

[20X11]

Cola and Mentos artillery barage?

[Grant H.]

If they are flying within the constraints of FAA regulations and local ordinances, you have no legal recourse for whatever actions you choose to interfere with the drone in operation. 'You' being the generic 'you'. People may find themselves in a world of Federal hurt for downing a drone in an unsafe manner, in addition to any civil or criminal property damage statutes. It's just a fact. Your best bet is to talk to the individual, or see if they are violating the regs or local ordinances. You can look up your in-laws address on Airmap or Skyvector to see if the airspace is legal to fly in. Amongst other things, I am a licensed commercial drone operator.

1000x this...

As someone who owns, flies, and uses multi-rotor flight systems (none of mine are autonomous so it annoys me to call them drones, especially when I have worked on autonomous ones), don't be the (generic - not one person here) d!ck that goes and destroys someones multi-thousand dollar piece of equipment because it annoys you.

If they are flying illegally? Fine, deal with it properly.

If not flying illegally? Talk to them. See if an agreement can be reached.

I guarantee you won't come to a peaceful and reasonable solution if you go the vandalism route...

[Wulf202]

It's illegal to do that. 83feet is absolutely the minimum that is listed as too low in supreme court decisions.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17209011020287234065
United States v. Causby, 328 US 256 - Supreme Court 1946

https://aviation.uslegal.com/ownership-of-airspace-over-property/
has a list of citations to read over also

Edited to add US v Causby has been used successfully to defend someone who shot down a UAV with a firearm from charges at least once that I know of.

[ChickNorris]

.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/fb6b990232a576307f8150db328436ce.jpg

Yagi rifle is technically illegal to use, unfortunately.

[Grant H.]

It's illegal to do that. 83feet is absolutely the minimum that is listed as too low in supreme court decisions.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17209011020287234065
United States v. Causby, 328 US 256 - Supreme Court 1946

https://aviation.uslegal.com/ownership-of-airspace-over-property/
has a list of citations to read over also

Edited to add US v Causby has been used successfully to defend someone who shot down a UAV with a firearm from charges at least once that I know of.

I've seen the Causby case cited elsewhere, and I've never heard of it being used to justify shooting a UAV down. If you care to cite the case, I'd like to see it.

The FAA has yet to make a determination for an airspace floor for multi-rotors. They have set an airspace ceiling of 400'. Nowhere in the FAA guidelines for UAS is there any mention of an airspace floor (at least not that I've ever come across...)

The way Causby is written is too vague for real world application to "drones".




Also, if the OP's in-laws shoot the drone down in the neighborhood, they are likely breaking laws by discharging a firearm inside city/neighborhood limits.

Now, all of that said, I will say this as an owner and pilot of such aircraft.

Be a kind and courteous pilot, and avoid all the BS anyway.

[Grant H.]

Yagi rifle is technically illegal to use, unfortunately.

Very illegal.

It also just causes the quad to hover where you target it, at least until it's battery fails. Within the US, the operator of the jamming system would be liable for the damage to the quad and any damage on the ground from it falling... (Hard to prove/prosecute, but that doesn't change the fact that it's illegal for several reasons.)

[TFOGGER]

Jus' sayin'...


http://youtu.be/5CzURm7OpAA

[ray1970]

Pretty sure Deer Trail was selling licenses to shoot down drones. Maybe someplace in Florida will sell a similar license to hunt drones.

[ray1970]

Of course the coolest way to remove a drone is by training a bird of prey to take it down.

You can see videos on YouTube of eagles taking out drones. Pretty sure the government trained them to use in crowded areas.

[SideShow Bob]

Of course the coolest way to remove a drone is by training a bird of prey to take it down.

You can see videos on YouTube of eagles taking out drones. Pretty sure the government trained them to use in crowded areas.

That would be cruelty to animals,.
I’m sure it is the same with propellers on drones. I remember back in the day with RC model airplanes, that the propellers would give you a mean cut if your hand or other body part got in the wrong place.

[kidicarus13]

Jus' sayin'...


http://youtu.be/5CzURm7OpAANICE!

[00tec]

That would be cruelty to animals,.
I’m sure it is the same with propellers on drones. I remember back in the day with RC model airplanes, that the propellers would give you a mean cut if your hand or other body part got in the wrong place.

I took a hit with my 15" nylon (glass reinforced) folding props and ended up with a decent cut. Had they not been folding, it would have been much worse. Carbon fiber props can quickly turn you into an amputee.

[Mazin]

If they are flying within the constraints of FAA regulations and local ordinances, you have no legal recourse for whatever actions you choose to interfere with the drone in operation. 'You' being the generic 'you'. People may find themselves in a world of Federal hurt for downing a drone in an unsafe manner, in addition to any civil or criminal property damage statutes. It's just a fact. Your best bet is to talk to the individual, or see if they are violating the regs or local ordinances. You can look up your in-laws address on Airmap or Skyvector to see if the airspace is legal to fly in. Amongst other things, I am a licensed commercial drone operator.

^this

[Fentonite]

I dunno. The language in the link Wolf posted seems pretty clear:

[QUOTE]The air is generally a public highway and the airspace overhead is part of the public domain[ii]. But, if a landowner is to have full enjoyment of his/her land, s/he must have exclusive control of the immediate reaches of the enveloping atmosphere[iii]. Accordingly, a landowner is protected against intrusions in the airspace immediate and direct as to subtract from the owner’s full enjoyment of the property and to limit his/her exploitation of it[iv].[QUOTE]

I would think that a drone buzzing around in the airspace immediately over my property would certainly “subtract from my full ownership of the property”. And if, as a landowner, if I am to “have exclusive control of the immediate reaches of the enveloping atmosphere”, I think I would be within my rights to, say, water my air with a powerful hose, as I see fit. Not saying I’d have any right to preclude a drone from flying over anyone else’s property, but directly over mine, and low enough to be a nuisance? I’d try asking politely, but only once.

[Irving]

I dunno. The language in the link Wolf posted seems pretty clear:


The air is generally a public highway and the airspace overhead is part of the public domain[ii]. But, if a landowner is to have full enjoyment of his/her land, s/he must have exclusive control of the immediate reaches of the enveloping atmosphere[iii]. Accordingly, a landowner is protected against intrusions in the airspace immediate and direct as to subtract from the owner?s full enjoyment of the property and to limit his/her exploitation of it.

I would think that a drone buzzing around in the airspace immediately over my property would certainly ?subtract from my full ownership of the property?. And if, as a landowner, if I am to ?have exclusive control of the immediate reaches of the enveloping atmosphere?, I think I would be within my rights to, say, water my air with a powerful hose, as I see fit. Not saying I?d have any right to preclude a drone from flying over anyone else?s property, but directly over mine, and low enough to be a nuisance? I?d try asking politely, but only once.

Would you use that same example to justify watering the street if you didn't like whom ever was in front of your house within 83' of your property line?

[crays]

Would you use that same example to justify watering the street if you didn't like whom ever was in front of your house within 83' of your property line?Not a valid comparison. The street is outside the boundary of the property lines. If you project the property lines vertically to a given height, the drone is violating that envelope.

This conversation has not been directed towards drones flying over the streets, alleyways or other easements not specifically contained within the property line envelope.

Apples do not equal Oranges.

Sent from somewhere...

[Irving]

I agree, but I think it might be a tough argument to make that something within X' feet is bothersome to you if there are other things like properties and public access within that envelope of the property line. I imagine that it's not something that'd ever go in front of a jury, and with just judges and lawyers it'd be pretty cut and dry.

Ultimately, avoiding doing things that are likely to encourage legal action from your neighbors is the simplest solution.

[ChickNorris]

I'll bite.

There is a reasonable expectation that some one or thing could observe you on your property from the street or an adjacent property.

Is it reasonable to say that this 'expectation' also applies to the immediate airspace within the same property line?

Not even

[newracer]

I'll bite.

There is a reasonable expectation that some one or thing could observe you on your property from the street or an adjacent property.

Is it reasonable to say that this 'expectation' also applies to the immediate airspace within the same property line?

Not even

Heard of Google Earth?

[Great-Kazoo]

I'd talk to the owner first. If that failed, then mention to local LE dept. The drone seems to hover over your property while in a swimsuit. You feel uncomfortable to the point the few times said drone has appeared you feel like it's stalking you, like a peeping tom. That's illegal no matter how the invasion of privacy is done.

Laws or not pertaining to drones. There's a reasonable level of privacy for any home owner.

[Fentonite]

Would you use that same example to justify watering the street if you didn't like whom ever was in front of your house within 83' of your property line?


Not a valid comparison. The street is outside the boundary of the property lines. If you project the property lines vertically to a given height, the drone is violating that envelope.

This conversation has not been directed towards drones flying over the streets, alleyways or other easements not specifically contained within the property line envelope.

Apples do not equal Oranges.

Sent from somewhere...

yeah, what crays said. There is established precedence that the airspace, at least to some degree, is that of the property owner. Otherwise, I could extend a 2nd floor balcony over the back yard of my next door neighbor. I won’t water the street to keep folks off public property, but I will water my own lawn when I want (there was a funny video posted on this site of someone doing just that, using a motion-activated sprayer, to keep trespassing pissers at bay).

[fitz19d]

I'd like to hear more specifically what the supposed problem is. IE them actually flying the drone outside their windows or in a neighborhood vs someone with an acre getting butt hurt because they think it's crossing the property line some. (Which is very dubious to ascertain since just by looking at the drone telling true height and distance is not really accurate just by eyeballing it.) Or basically when people are out sunbathing vs just being indoors and annoyed that they can hear one being flown.

[Irving]

It's one thing to have court language, but completely another to have that mean anything. I've heard discussion with wildlife resource officers about the legality of shooting across private property from public to public with respect to hunting. A floor/ceiling of airspace was not part of that discussion, but I assume that was due to lack of airspace issues in general by the people having the discussion. It seems though, that a law enforcement officer would have some passing familiarity with the subject since drones are often talked about with respect to hunting.

[Fentonite]

Clearly, when shooting across private property from public to public, one must use indirect fire, so that the rounds go over the 83? of private airspace.

[rondog]

I suppose kneecapping the offending neighbor would be frowned upon.....

[Irving]

Clearly, when shooting across private property from public to public, one must use indirect fire, so that the rounds go over the 83? of private airspace.

I don't think mortars are a legal method of take. :(

[TFOGGER]

I don't think mortars are a legal method of take. :(

.45-70. Enough said. [ROFL1]

[ray1970]

I'd talk to the owner first. If that failed, then mention to local LE dept. The drone seems to hover over your property while in a swimsuit. You feel uncomfortable to the point the few times said drone has appeared you feel like it's stalking you, like a peeping tom. That's illegal no matter how dais invasion of privacy is done.

Laws or not pertaining to drones. There's a reasonable level of privacy for any home owner.

I like it.

I?d take it to the next level and say that the drone operator is spying on my children and try to have him branded as a pedophile. That should get law enforcement involved.

[Irving]

The problem with being annoyed is that people don't generally react in a rational manner. I know that I don't. I've been lectured on this very board for spraying my garden hose into the open window of someone speeding down my street for example. Anyway, what might annoy a drone operator that may be skirting the boundaries of decency/manners, if not the law, but isn't permanently damaging property that potentially costs thousands? Would a paintball gun be effective?

[ChickNorris]

Heard of Google Earth?

I said 'reasonable' & 'immediate' & specific to the topic of quadcopters over residential properties/boundaries by near neighbors for who knows what purpose.

Introducing Google Earth as an comparable example in this context is just silly, dude.

[Great-Kazoo]

The problem with being annoyed is that people don't generally react in a rational manner. I know that I don't. I've been lectured on this very board for spraying my garden hose into the open window of someone speeding down my street for example. Anyway, what might annoy a drone operator that may be skirting the boundaries of decency/manners, if not the law, but isn't permanently damaging property that potentially costs thousands? Would a paintball gun be effective?


Anything that impacts said drone will cause damage. Once again try resolving with dialogue, which i'd personally be recording on my phone. Worse case scenario, is there an HOA for the neighborhood? Sic those napoleanic natsee's on them.

[ray1970]

https://youtu.be/kAYVyj6vf3Y

[20X11]

Bottom line...fly that f***ing quadcopter over my property without permission and see how long it lasts... See you in court if that is your choice.

[Grant H.]

I bet you couldn't hit my race quad if you tried... LOL! :D

The OP said that LEO has been contacted, and said too bad so sad...

We don't know if the OP's inlaws have tried the neighborly thing of trying to talk to said quad flier, but that would be the place to start.

As Irving alluded to, pissing people off is usually not a good plan. Many of the people I know that fly quads would be vindictive and creative in retaliation for handling this poorly. If one is annoying, dozens will be flat out infuriating...

[newracer]

I said 'reasonable' & 'immediate' & specific to the topic of quadcopters over residential properties/boundaries by near neighbors for who knows what purpose.

Introducing Google Earth as an comparable example in this context is just silly, dude.

My point was in my opinion it's not reasonable to expect privacy anywhere outside anymore. With readily available inexpensive high resolution cameras, drones, and other technology you can be seen anywhere anytime when outside.

[kidicarus13]

This reminds me of all the pitbull threads. Pick a side, pick a side.

[CS1983]

Pitbulls vs Drones, starring David Arquette. I'd totally watch that on Netflix.

[davsel]

And it is easy to identify which members own drones and pitbulls.

Fly a camera over my house and we will work out damages in court.

[Irving]

Lots of tough talk in here. Just like me boycotting stores that I wouldn't go to in the first place.

[izzy]

If person A has a right to fly a quadcopter in certian airspace doesn't person B have the right to fly their harpoon in the same airspace? If the two just happened to crash then what?

[def90]

If person A has a right to fly a quadcopter in certian airspace doesn't person B have the right to fly their harpoon in the same airspace? If the two just happened to crash then what?

That would be my take.. Get your own suicide quadcopter. Oops, I didn't see the other copter until it was too late.

[Irving]

Sounds fair, expensive, but fair. I think most discussions like this aren't really worth a discussion though. You have one group of people who imagine one situation, then another group that imagine another situation, and everyone talks past each other.

[<MADDOG>]

I bet you couldn't hit my race quad if you tried... LOL! :D

The OP said that LEO has been contacted, and said too bad so sad...

We don't know if the OP's inlaws have tried the neighborly thing of trying to talk to said quad flier, but that would be the place to start.

As Irving alluded to, pissing people off is usually not a good plan. Many of the people I know that fly quads would be vindictive and creative in retaliation for handling this poorly. If one is annoying, dozens will be flat out infuriating...

Neighbor was contacted, and it did not go well... Hence my question.

Other authorities have been contacted. I'll keep this updated.

But thanks guys!

[Irving]

Are other neighbors being bothered as well? I think a group of people might go over better.

[JohnnyEgo]

If person A has a right to fly a quadcopter in certian airspace doesn't person B have the right to fly their harpoon in the same airspace? If the two just happened to crash then what?

Person A would have the obligation to report the incident to the FAA, and if they were operating under 14CFR107 or the Section 333 exemption, that obligation would have the weight of Federal law. Depending on the nature of the collision and property damage, they would also be obligated to report to the NTSB. Personal (not professional) opinion only, knowingly inviting The Man further into your life by doing this sort of thing rarely works out well for anybody. And in general, it is better to engage with the law as it is, rather than the law as we think it should be.

Maddog - Your parents may not have legal remedy to stop the guy from flying, but there may be civil remedies depending on what he is doing. If he is intentionally harrassing his neighbors, there are civil statutes that may address his actions rather than the tools he is using. You or your parents may want to review what is happening with a competent legal professional, specifically focusing on Florida HB1027 and SB766, and the drone operator's actions and intents.

[def90]

What's the deal with these anyway? They are essentially just RC aircraft, there are rules on where you can fly RC aircraft.

Here's what I can dig up..

- Your drone must be registered if it weighs over .55 lbs
- You cannot fly over anyone not directly participating in the operation of the drone

I guess I would see if the guy has his drone registered or not.. If not he can't fly it.

If they are using it for commercial use there are more stringent requirements such as pilot certification and so on. if they are posting video online that are monetized that could put them in to the area of commercial use.

It might be worth contacting the local FAA office, they may have more power than the local PD.

Recreational flying:
https://www.faa.gov/uas/recreational_fliers/

Commercial Use:
https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=22615

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=dc908fb739912b0e6dcb7d7d88cfe6a7&mc=true&node=pt14.2.107&rgn=div5#se14.2.107_111


-

[izzy]

Person A would have the obligation to report the incident to the FAA, and if they were operating under 14CFR107 or the Section 333 exemption, that obligation would have the weight of Federal law. Depending on the nature of the collision and property damage, they would also be obligated to report to the NTSB. Personal (not professional) opinion only, knowingly inviting The Man further into your life by doing this sort of thing rarely works out well for anybody. And in general, it is better to engage with the law as it is, rather than the law as we think it should be.

I was being a dumbass mostly when I asked that. Seems like the in-laws of the OP are in a no win situation.

[fitz19d]

And it is easy to identify which members own drones and pitbulls.

Fly a camera over my house and we will work out damages in court.

Or after shooting down a 8,000$ photographers drone doing work in the area that offended you so greatly by flying by or over the property a bit, enjoy catching a felony possibly and your gun rights lost over being so triggered by a drone. I 100% get it, if someone is out sunbathing or one was hanging out directly in front of your window or something. Folk don't realize often A: It's not actually on your property because visually telling height and distance of a small flying object is very innaccurate, B: Even if one is inside your property line 80 feet up, it's quite likely to not even have a camera focused on your house but rather looking somewhere else. Generally To be flown via camera, the view is largely straight forward and a little down and not a super magnified image. But everyone acts like it's a government high res zoomed in ground scanning probing.

FWIW, I don't own or operate any. Had some toy level ones in the past, so unlike the comments of "who owns a drone/pit", I don't have a dog in this fight other than laugh at some of the guys on here that get triggered by them worse than misgendering an SJW otherkin.

[fitz19d]

Neighbor was contacted, and it did not go well... Hence my question.

Other authorities have been contacted. I'll keep this updated.

But thanks guys!

Thanks for the update, because I am curious to how it plays out. Can you be more specific in what the behavior of the drone folk is? (not the being pissy about being asked to not do it, more details as far as we are talking invading a large acreage property, vs a 1/4 acre neighborhood plot, hovering high vs acrobatics sorta low around people/animals, etc)


@Def90, I think the .55lb thing had been changed or otherwise overruled even if it's still on their page. This was a thing like 2 years ago when it first happened ish. I thought I recall seeing that either a court, or another agency said essentially that some of what they were trying to regulate was outside their scope or some such. I don't fly, so I'm not any better than 50/50 on being sure that I remembered that correctly. Just happened to see a news blurb or link somewhere about it.

[Irving]

I think Davsel owns acreage, so the likelyhood of a drone being directly over his residence is low, and if that is the case, the operator would be in error. I think most of use live in dense neighborhoods where someone having an inspection next door might be unnerving.

I'm curious how many drones don't even have cameras. Is that a thing?

[kidicarus13]

I think Davsel owns acreage, so the likelyhood of a drone being directly over his residence is low, and if that is the case, the operator would be in error.

Sounds to me like the operator would be out a drone.[emoji1787]

[00tec]

Thanks for the update, because I am curious to how it plays out. Can you be more specific in what the behavior of the drone folk is? (not the being pissy about being asked to not do it, more details as far as we are talking invading a large acreage property, vs a 1/4 acre neighborhood plot, hovering high vs acrobatics sorta low around people/animals, etc)


@Def90, I think the .55lb thing had been changed or otherwise overruled even if it's still on their page. This was a thing like 2 years ago when it first happened ish. I thought I recall seeing that either a court, or another agency said essentially that some of what they were trying to regulate was outside their scope or some such. I don't fly, so I'm not any better than 50/50 on being sure that I remembered that correctly. Just happened to see a news blurb or link somewhere about it.
Initial registration requirement was overruled because the FAA was trying to just do a rule change outside of their allowed scope.
Then registration got added back in along with some budget bill somewhere.

[Bailey Guns]

Lots of organizations, gov't and otherwise, are using drones these days...police depts, assessors, etc.

[fitz19d]

I think Davsel owns acreage, so the likelyhood of a drone being directly over his residence is low, and if that is the case, the operator would be in error. I think most of use live in dense neighborhoods where someone having an inspection next door might be unnerving.

I'm curious how many drones don't even have cameras. Is that a thing?
Especially cheaper hobby grade which can seem large, plenty of them don't have cameras. Then a large Segment have basic cameras that take video or images that are downloaded later to view but are not used to fly. As you might guess that makes taking spy photos hard blindly recording.

[Grant H.]

Especially cheaper hobby grade which can seem large, plenty of them don't have cameras. Then a large Segment have basic cameras that take video or images that are downloaded later to view but are not used to fly. As you might guess that makes taking spy photos hard blindly recording.

Most all that have a camera have some form of a lower-res video stream back to the controller, for visual confirmation of the shot, but the high-res stuff is stored onboard until landed and downloaded later.

Race quads don't have high res cameras, for the most part, but they do have lower-res with a video stream for FPV flying of courses. (Googles so it appears that your eyes are on the front of the quad).

[Grant H.]

Neighbor was contacted, and it did not go well... Hence my question.

Other authorities have been contacted. I'll keep this updated.

But thanks guys!

I would certainly be interested in updates as this unfolds.

I know that I/We have been pretty careful about not annoying folks with our quads, but we also have easy access to hundreds of acres of BC open space that is never monitored or checked (except by the farmer that leases it for his cattle)...

[Irving]

Home security drone!

https://www.cnet.com/news/home-security-drone-could-help-you-tell-possums-from-prowlers/

[sniper7]

I have a kamikaze drone ready to attack any invading drones over my property. Tell them to head to Walmart and starting learning to fly, attack from above. You can even hang paracord or strong string that will catch their props...of course it is really used to help you see which direction the drone is facing and if it is drifting on you...you are learning to fly after all![Beer]