View Full Version : Ageism in Firearms/Sporting Activities
So here's an interesting topic for discussion that I've always wanted to ask a group of folks about but never had the right forum. tl;dr: What do you all think about ageism or age discrimination in firearms-type sporting activities? and is it right, and how should one overcome it?
Let me share you my perspective.. I'm in my early 20s. I bought my first rifle in the week of my 18th birthday (M&P15-22). Up until that point, I had a purely observational perspective on this hobby which was, watching YouTube videos or reading forums etc. From those forms of media you don't realize the reality of going to the range or buying a gun at this age, which in my experience was the first store I went to (Wal-Mart) refusing the sale because I looked too "young". Already had done the background check, passed, paid the fees for that, etc. No real legal basis of denying the sale other than the fact that they are a business and can do what they want. I can't help but think that the fuckwit behind the counter thought he was stopping the next school shooter (with a .22, mind you), but that set the tone that 6 years later continues and still bothers me.
The second experience was when I was trying to buy ammo in person for that .22 at a different store (Big5) and they refused the sale as well. Granted, this was 4 days after SandyHook, but FFS I wanted to stock up on ammo too lol. Gladly, found ammoseek and order ammo almost only online now, which has been great for my finances too.
When I go to a new range where the people don't know me or where I'm not a member (looking at you Summit County or Cheyenne Mountain), I get the weirdest looks. I get the range officer super hyper sensitive to what I'm doing.. which I understand is their job to a certain extent, but it bothers me sometimes. It's to the point where I wont go to a new range alone, because it can be such an awkward experience, so instead I hit up one of my bearded buddies to join and then it's a totally different day. I know a lot of people my age can be irresponsible, but I'm a professional with a job and a 401K (lol), I follow gun and range safety to the absolute tip of the T, so it confuses me when Bob two lanes down barrel sweeps me with his grandfathers 1911 and doesn't even get a peep from the range officer.
Maybe I just need to befriend some older gentlemen on here, but honestly, I like going to the range by myself. I have very few hobbies, don't go out to the bars on the weekend or nothing like that, so range time is my "me time" and I want to spend it by myself with my own internal voice, putting holes in paper. Thankfully I've found an indoor range near me, which after an initial awkward experience, has been generally fine, but sometimes 25yds is a bit boring.
Thoughts? Am I just out of place here and should go back to my mom's and cry? [Whacko]
Great-Kazoo
01-06-2019, 10:28
Thoughts? Am I just out of place here and should go back to my mom's and cry? [Whacko]
Well if she's like us. The day after the daughter moved out we redecorated. So i doubt there's room at her house for you.
On a serious note. I'd like to recruit more young shooters like you for the range out here. Being in my 60's, i'm one of the youngest and don't understand why there's not more of a push to bring young shooters in to the sport.
Think they don't want their GOBN upset.
Anyway. IMO IF you see someone sweeping call the RO on it. It's their job. If they don't notice it after you bring it to their attention it's a job meant for someone else.
You'll always get shit from some of the more serious fudds, if you're shooting an AR. Those you'll never win over. Hell even today shooting suppressed there's still a mentality of THOSE THINGS ARE ILLEGAL! Best you can do is smile and out shoot them.
Which leads me to suggesting you attend a few different local shooting comps. Make friends, learn how to shoot better becoming a regular face at the range. This way when those ol coots say something, someone you met at a comp may come over to say hi. Shutting the naysayers up.
emiller35
01-06-2019, 10:30
I?m a touch older (27) but know exactly what you mean. From my experience this really has only happened to me on sporting clay courses and Trap/Skeet fields. However it was easily fixed once they could tell I wasn?t going to slow anyone up and actually knew what I was doing. Also helps to just get out and make some friends on the course if you?re usually shooting solo.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Outside of your welcome posts, you have one mentioning "sexism" at a gun range and now this new thread on "ageism" where I question the facts of your purchasing experiences.
Almost looks to be trolling. Time will tell. Until then, I will utilize my ignore list so as not to be banned for stating my true thoughts.
Hope you prove me wrong.
I think it is mostly a function of the way people are wired. About 30 years ago I worked as a trap boy at the Aurora Gun Club. It happened back then too. Especially with the retiree shooters. I do notice myself slowly turning into those old, much loved curmudgeons. In my younger years I just went shooting, only noticed the most careless shooters. Now, I find myself almost unable to relax if a younger shooter is nearby. As the OP mentioned, I feel a bit more comfortable if a older person is around. That said I went shooting for the first time with guys I've known for 20 years. They are new to guns. None of them have any formal training or hunter's safety. I had the same feeling for a bit. After knowing they were safe, I relaxed. It would be unnatural to not be more than alert around an unknown person with a gun. The more different you are the more people are alert to your presents. You'll get older and eventually get less looks. Along the same line is becoming a regular at one or two places. I for one would love more young folks around the gun business. Don't get discouraged.
Outside of your welcome posts, you have one mentioning "sexism" at a gun range and now this new thread on "ageism" where I question the facts of your purchasing experiences.
Almost looks to be trolling. Time will tell. Until then, I will utilize my ignore list so as not to be banned for stating my true thoughts.
Hope you prove me wrong.
To each their own, brother. I joined this forum to talk about this kind of stuff because its what limits me from enjoying something I really love. If you disagree that sexism exists in this hobby/sport then you're simply being ignorant in my opinion. I've since found a local range and a local (non-chain) gun store that treat everyone with the same amount of respect, so certainly my experiences in the OP are both anecdotal and you're only seeing one side of it. I personally want to know what it is I can do to help combat the situation. If I was trolling I wouldn't join with my real name and post my real location and occupation where you can easily find me on LinkedIn.
Well if she's like us. The day after the daughter moved out we redecorated. So i doubt there's room at her house for you.
On a serious note. I'd like to recruit more young shooters like you for the range out here. Being in my 60's, i'm one of the youngest and don't understand why there's not more of a push to bring young shooters in to the sport.
Think they don't want their GOBN upset.
Anyway. IMO IF you see someone sweeping call the RO on it. It's their job. If they don't notice it after you bring it to their attention it's a job meant for someone else.
You'll always get shit from some of the more serious fudds, if you're shooting an AR. Those you'll never win over. Hell even today shooting suppressed there's still a mentality of THOSE THINGS ARE ILLEGAL! Best you can do is smile and out shoot them.
Which leads me to suggesting you attend a few different local shooting comps. Make friends, learn how to shoot better becoming a regular face at the range. This way when those ol coots say something, someone you met at a comp may come over to say hi. Shutting the naysayers up.
Haha probably true, parents moved and I don't have a room anymore for sure. I'd definitely like to check out some of the more competitive aspects, I certainly have the money/equipment/time so it's worth a look. Might start at the bowling pin shoot at my local range that has been looking real fun.
I think it is mostly a function of the way people are wired. About 30 years ago I worked as a trap boy at the Aurora Gun Club. It happened back then too. Especially with the retiree shooters. I do notice myself slowly turning into those old, much loved curmudgeons. In my younger years I just went shooting, only noticed the most careless shooters. Now, I find myself almost unable to relax if a younger shooter is nearby. As the OP mentioned, I feel a bit more comfortable if a older person is around. That said I went shooting for the first time with guys I've known for 20 years. They are new to guns. None of them have any formal training or hunter's safety. I had the same feeling for a bit. After knowing they were safe, I relaxed. It would be unnatural to not be more than alert around an unknown person with a gun. The more different you are the more people are alert to your presents. You'll get older and eventually get less looks. Along the same line is becoming a regular at one or two places. I for one would love more young folks around the gun business. Don't get discouraged.
For sure this is definitely it.. once I'm on range for 10-15 minutes and obviously know what I'm doing everyone relaxes. It's only natural as you say to have some heightened awareness, I totally get this. At the end of the day you have to bring younger shooters into the hobby else the hobby dies by default, not enough streams of people to take over for the older folks who start to hit the range less and less.
Grow your own beard?
Haha I wish, all I can grow are some mean sideburns.
Carry some metamucil bars in your range bag. If someone says something you feel is "ageist", pull one out and say, "If you want to give me shit, you'll need to eat this first. Don't forget to drink water with it, gramps." If they laugh, they're cool. If they throw a fit, ask where their nursing home handler is.
SideShow Bob
01-06-2019, 11:28
Haha I wish, all I can grow are some mean sideburns.
Grab the wife’s/girlfriends eyebrow pencil & fill in the blank spots....
ChickNorris
01-06-2019, 11:29
I'm not without empathy or understanding.
I have my own related 'ism' troubles but won't usurp the thread.
Not a range bunny is my next title
Scanker19
01-06-2019, 11:31
I'm of the opinion that any time someone claims something is "______ism/ist" They are simply using their own preconceived notions to explain their grievances. They think people don't like young people or women or colored people. Young shooters, by definition, are generally less experienced, therefore are usually keep under a more watchful eye. Women shooters, typically, are less experienced because there are simply less women shooters. To not acknowledge that these are things that just exist, is obtuse.
Are there experienced younger shooters? yes. Are there experienced women shooters? Of course. Are there inexperienced older men shooters yes. To say otherwise is similar to using the God of Gaps fallacy but with "isms" rather than god.
If i read your post right you bought a rifle and they wouldn't sell you ammo for it? Because you "looked too young." Sorry but i`m calling bullshit on that. Unless you mistook we won't sell .22 PISTOL ammo to someone too young. that does happen usually though ignorance of of the clerk.
People will have preconceived notions about others based on reality. I used to wonder why people would follow around a young mexican in a hoodie (me) around their stores, then it dawned on my oh because white guys in suits aren't shoplifting from them. We all do it. I do it, even you, though maybe not willing to admit it, do it.
Carry some metamucil bars in your range bag. If someone says something you feel is "ageist", pull one out and say, "If you want to give me shit, you'll need to eat this first. Don't forget to drink water with it, gramps." If they laugh, they're cool. If they throw a fit, ask where their nursing home handler is.
Now that's funny. I've seen it too. For my part I try to invite the younger shooters over to shoot whatever I brought with me that day, if for no other reason than they can make a more informed decision on what they do/don't want next. It's my way of repaying what a few of the old guys at Golden Gun club did for me early on.
ChickNorris
01-06-2019, 11:38
Um, not going to muck with your ideology, much.
Giggle snort
UrbanWolf
01-06-2019, 11:42
27 now, I started buying guns and ammo in my late teens and never have had people deny me sales because of it. Sure there are a few grumpy guys who doesn’t like to talk to me in gun shops here and there, but you get the same kind of people everywhere.
UrbanWolf
01-06-2019, 11:46
By the way, I really wouldn’t consider Walmart and Big 5 employees part of the firearms sport community, they are just another min-wage worker who said they have experience with guns and got the job.
It exists, yes, but only at the hands of certain personalities; it's not a broad stroke. While I am older than you by a bit, I owned a firearm-associated business continuously since I was probably younger than you. My best tip is to not let it bother you, and instead find some amusement in it, as the truth of the matter is it is a circumstance that is outside of our control. There is DEFINITELY a presumptive bias in age with firearms in the business context; I overcame it by avoiding the issue entirely. E.g. act older than you are, and people won't generally notice. (Maybe you are cursed with the face of a twelve year old or something though, I don't know). It was amusing when those who I had worked with for years did realize my age.
It also exists somewhat, but less so in a general shooting context. Truth is, people like to associate with themselves - e.g. same age, interests, etc., think of it as cliques in school. If you go to a range full of 65yo guys, you're going to be getting side-eye. You'll also get it if you go to a dance studio full of 45yo yoga instructors. Or if you go to a range full of nothing but 20-something women. If you don't fit into the clique, don't expect acceptance.
People often misinterpret or over analyze situations as well, example: Minority getting pulled over for a traffic stop, officer is an asshole. Minority assumes it to be racist, when truth in fact, that specific officer is just an asshole to everyone. This is why it's important not to have a "I'm being discriminated against" mindset, as it gives you a type of cognitive dissonance that lets you recast many of the sucky experiences of life that everyone suffers into being instead, some kind of oppression. People aren't fair, but it's important to cast our mental processes right - don't assume oppression, ignore it - as cognitive dissonance is a trap that will harm your interpretation of the world and limit your success in life.
Many minorities of all types would find themselves more successful if they adopted that realization. Life sucks, most of the time, it isn't for the reasons they want to be. [people are simply assholes to everyone]
Good perspective here, quite helpful. Truth be told I do let it bother me so if I simply just didn't let it get under my skin then I'd probably have a better time.
By the way, I really wouldn’t consider Walmart and Big 5 employees part of the firearms sport community, they are just another min-wage worker who said they have experience with guns and got the job.
Totally agree.. ignorant 18-19 year old me didn't realize this, as soon as I switched to LGS it's been a much better experience.
Not_A_Llama
01-06-2019, 11:59
You may have too much sparkle and enthusiasm in your eyes. A few more years of soul-crushing work, and you'll be drab enough to not notice, or too tired to care.
I probably engage in some classical ageism, to what I'd call your "reverse ageism" - old dudes at my clubs that shoot bullseye and other slow sports have shit-terrifying gun handling skills and reaction times, while insisting that "quick draw" shooters are unsafe for holstering chambered guns or going downrange when everyone is holstered. I try to educate, include, and dialog where I can.
I would stop caring, and leverage the situation to ask questions from much more experienced folks who'll be frank with you. GLHF.
Most people can barely control themselves and their own reactions. That never seems to stop them from focusing on the reactions of others.
Everyone has hang ups about all sorts of things. Be yourself and don’t get caught up in other people’s drama.
Be safe.
SideShow Bob
01-06-2019, 12:04
How do you dress when you go to these Ageistic places ? First impressions will set the attitude for how you are perceived and treated.
Us “Old Fart” Fudds are that way,
OtterbatHellcat
01-06-2019, 12:08
I'm thinking about what Davsel said.
UrbanWolf
01-06-2019, 12:24
Totally agree.. ignorant 18-19 year old me didn't realize this, as soon as I switched to LGS it's been a much better experience.
Yep, once a LGS gets to know you, they usually treat you like a friend, also a few tips to combat ageism in gun shop:
1) don’t said stupid stuff, if you don’t know how something works, don’t talk, there are enough idiots with guns to go around.
2) don’t talk their business away, not your sale or your money, not your concern.
3) muzzle and chamber awareness goes a long way.
Delfuego
01-06-2019, 12:27
There are 3 sides to every story.
What you said, what they said and what actually happened.
Hah! I enjoy the looks the tacticool toddlers (oops is that “ageism”??!!) give me when I show up with only my revolvers at the range (well they can’t see my old guy 1911 on my side LOL)-one of which is a .22 Smith!!! [ROFL1]
Grant H.
01-06-2019, 12:58
Just ignore it.
I've been big into firearms since before I could legally purchase them by myself, and as such have been through what you're talking about. It's actually not based on age, it's based on lack of personal experience. I'm not that much older than you, but I give the same look to anyone, regardless of age, when they show up to shoot and I don't know what they are capable of. It's a self preservation thing. It's a "I don't want shot by someone else's accident" thing.
Once you've shown that you know what you're doing, almost none will care about your age, except to be happy there are younger folks interested in guns.
Grant H.
01-06-2019, 13:01
As for the buying ammo, I had one walmart clown try and deny me when I was 19 because I was buying 9mm.
I politely, but firmly, explained that I was buying it for a 9mm carbine and that it was legal to purchase for someone under 21.
He wouldn't do it, so I got a manager called over, and after describing the 9mm carbine that I had built, he approved the sale and I never had a problem there again, even with different people.
I can honestly say I've never had this experience, or never interpreted an experience in this way.
Great-Kazoo
01-06-2019, 13:23
I can honestly say I've never had this experience, or never interpreted an experience in this way.
They're too busy looking down your blouse.
I think it has been expressed here but I want to try to express it another way.
It is natural for anyone to be suspicious of anything new or different. This not just an issue of age. When someone new joins a group, how long does it take for them to become an accepted member of the group. Similarly when someone is different from the majority of a group, how long does it take for them to become accepted, if ever, into that group.
We were all once new and different somewhere. What are we willing to do to be accepted? When is the cost of acceptance too high?
SideShow Bob
01-06-2019, 15:07
Heck, I must be old ! I can recall buying .22s at Sears and Western Auto stores before I was in High School. All I had to have was the cash, no parent required.
Don't ask me. I'd strip the rights of everyone under 30.
Many a person (myself included) has made many a terrible decision between the ages of 15 and 30.
I don't need young people making shitty decisions that could impact me. Like voting.
Oh, and if it helps the OP out at gun stores.... pull your damn pants up and wear your ballcap the right way.
RobertJordan
01-06-2019, 15:38
Carry some metamucil bars in your range bag. If someone says something you feel is "ageist", pull one out and say, "If you want to give me shit, you'll need to eat this first. Don't forget to drink water with it, gramps." If they laugh, they're cool. If they throw a fit, ask where their nursing home handler is.
This is the correct approach.
I've given this thread some thought and have an alternate opinion for you. I've had experiences like yours, but not specifically in the gun community.
I have to be careful how I word this, but here goes. Static shooting ranges, gun shops, and gun shows attract the highest concentration of the lowest grade of person in the shooting community. If you're going to run into low grade person, your chances are greatly increased at those mentioned locations.
Grant H.
01-06-2019, 16:00
I've given this thread some thought and have an alternate opinion for you. I've had experiences like yours, but not specifically in the gun community.
I have to be careful how I word this, but here goes. Static shooting ranges, gun shops, and gun shows attract the highest concentration of the lowest grade of person in the shooting community. If you're going to run into low grade person, your chances are greatly increased at those mentioned locations.
Completely fair assessment.
ETA: You can meet plenty of fine examples of good 2A folks at LGS, Ranges, Shows, etc... But Irvings assessment is accurate.
Lest anyone here think I am calling members of this board out...
BlasterBob
01-06-2019, 16:48
Referring to the AGE thing. At current Gun Shows, the vast majority of vendors and those walking the aisles have white/gray hair. Don’t know if younger guys just have little interest in the shooting sports or perhaps prices have elevated to where they lose all interest in spending their wad on such a hobby. Yes, I am one of the old “white hair farts”. [blaster]
Don't ask me. I'd strip the rights of everyone under 30.
Many a person (myself included) has made many a terrible decision between the ages of 15 and 30.
I don't need young people making shitty decisions that could impact me. Like voting.
Oh, and if it helps the OP out at gun stores.... pull your damn pants up and wear your ballcap the right way.
Haha oh hell, you're supposed to put a /s at the end of your post else someone might take you seriously.
When I got out the Marine Corps in 1995 I was an avid gun owner and loved shooting. I went to a gunsmithing school shortly after getting out and shooting has only become more of a passion as I've been making kydex products and building AR pattern rifles. I didn't have quite the overwhelming experience you are referring to...however; I did get the over-attentive range master at the Cherry Creek Family Fun Center one day as I was sighting in my AR. I asked him what his issue with me was since I noticed him hovering. I was not being unsafe in any manner. He didn't respond to me, just stepped back a few feet and stood there. Now, mind you I was young - mid 20's...so I didn't appreciate his demeanor and bagged up my rifle, told him to play a nice game of "hide and go fuck yourself", went into the office, told them what I thought and left. Haven't been back since. So glad I've toned down a bit as I've gotten older. [hahhah-no]
OtterbatHellcat
01-06-2019, 17:30
They're too busy looking down your blouse.
Damn, that was funny.
Ray had a really good post back there too.
Not_A_Llama
01-06-2019, 18:06
Referring to the AGE thing. At current Gun Shows, the vast majority of vendors and those walking the aisles have white/gray hair. Don?t know if younger guys just have little interest in the shooting sports or perhaps prices have elevated to where they lose all interest in spending their wad on such a hobby. Yes, I am one of the old ?white hair farts?. [blaster]
I think this is more an online shopping thing. Anonymous reviews mean more to the young crowd than testimonials of friends and handling in-store. I spend an ungodly amount on the sport, but have walked out empty handed from the last 5 gunshows I?ve attended, in as many years.
Open eyes
Observe how millenials act.
Fair or not, you are lumped in with them in some people's eyes.
wctriumph
01-06-2019, 18:16
I myself have never experienced the issues that the OP and others have had. In my early 60's now I was able to buy .22LR ammo at age 14 and was on my high school rifle team.
Where I am experiencing age discrimination is in the job market. I am trying to make a career change and although not to my face, I am being turned away as perhaps too experienced for the position. I'll keep trying.
Nelson,
I agree about enjoying solitary range time, I've enjoyed shooting alone since my teens (now 58). I've shot at a lot of private ranges, public ranges, private property, and public property. I tend to go back to where I get left alone to do MY thing. I prefer privately owned outdoor ranges that are run by 1 individual or a family rather than by a committee of old codgers. I like private berms that allow ME to control the firing line rather than having to get a concensus to change targets. I also do a lot of chronograph work. Yes, I can and do take guests sometimes... but those times I get the least enjoyment out of my time.
Will1776
01-06-2019, 19:45
20 years old here. Somewhat similar experiences. We need more young people on our side. Doing my part to bring friends to the range in a responsible, but still fun way. I remember buying a 15-22 back in CT when I was 18 or 19 after getting my long gun purchase permit and it felt like all the old guys were looking at me, but this could be placebo if thats the right term.
Foxtrot - I'm not following your statement from your above post:
"I've had the pleasure of meeting the engineer of the 1911 and the F-14 Tomcat (same person)..."
Not sure what you mean by "the engineer of the 1911 and Tomcat"
Dlesh123
01-06-2019, 22:58
Heck, I must be old ! I can recall buying .22s at Sears and Western Auto stores before I was in High School. All I had to have was the cash, no parent required.
Likewise, saved up my lunch money and went to the local hardware store and bought .22, seems like shorts were about 50-60cents a box, long rifle were like .75 -80 cents.
As far as the OP perception, I can get nervous around any age at a range until you get to know them. I think there is a natural tendency for older to wonder if the younger people have the education,maturity and experience to be doing what they are doing. Your best defense is to know what you are doing and talking about. If you still get the cold shoulder, then it’s their loss.
It happens in all industries. I have worked with and for people half my age. But luckily, they knew what they were doing, but if they needed help, they weren’t afraid to listen to the older folks either.
I still remember the time the customer asked me if I was old enough to be flying the airplane ( as Captain ) I was in my late 20s. We have all been there in some form.
Lest anyone here think I am calling members of this board out...
What do you mean by that [013]
Sorry hard too[ROFL1]
RobertJordan
01-06-2019, 23:26
Referring to the AGE thing. At current Gun Shows, the vast majority of vendors and those walking the aisles have white/gray hair. Don?t know if younger guys just have little interest in the shooting sports or perhaps prices have elevated to where they lose all interest in spending their wad on such a hobby. Yes, I am one of the old ?white hair farts?. [blaster]
I'm on the younger end of the spectrum, and my take is that most younger folks are buying mostly from online vendors. It's a selection issue and a cost issue.
Grant H.
01-07-2019, 01:04
What do you mean by that [013]
Sorry hard too[ROFL1]
No need to apologize.
I laughed at your response.
[that's how big the bullshitters get, and I'm not exaggerating]
I literally had a guy once try to credibly explain in our shop that he developed both the 1911 pistol. And the F-14 tomcat. He was about ... 50ish. And he wasn't trying to pull my leg either.
As I'm not as big of an asshole as some (or perhaps, better customer service...), I didn't stomp him for it, but I'm sure sarcasm was dripping from my voice when I said "1911 no kidding? Like that pistol that's named after the year? No way." Yup, totally designed it.
You see a lot of mental illness in every public-contact job, I guess. Firearm related just has it's own, unique brand, with tinfoil.
Extra hilarity: I owned 1911.com at the time.
Sheesh. Almost sounds like Carl (many here will know who I'm talking about.)
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