View Full Version : Don't think these are the kind that I like with steak?
https://www.denverpost.com/2019/02/01/psychedelic-mushrooms-make-denver-2019-ballot/
BladesNBarrels
02-03-2019, 11:50
It would be an out-of-body experience, I have been told.
Better go check some out to see if it's a good idea or not.
Bailey Guns
02-03-2019, 12:32
What a great idea... Nothing like some shrooms with your other green, leafy plants.
BPTactical
02-03-2019, 12:42
What could possibly go wrong?
"Idiocracy" was not supposed to be a documentary.
JohnnyEgo
02-03-2019, 13:07
I've come around to the idea of Psilocybin as a therapeutic treatment for PTSD, but only in the context of treatment being administered and monitored by a doctor. Not a fan of any other approach. Don't want it to become the next recreational drug like marijuana. But 'Becoming Cary Grant' did make me rethink my position on using low dose psychedelics as a therapeutic tool for severe mental illness. And I say this as a middle aged guy who has never taken any form of illegal drug in my life, and am so square even my pants say 'regular straight'.
What could possibly go wrong?
That's a good question.
theGinsue
02-03-2019, 14:04
Not in favor of this at all. Geez, those things can cause serious hallucinations.
A guy I was stationed with a couple of times was originally from Lafayette, CO but attended Longmont HS. He told me of a time he went to a HS party and consumed some "magic mushrooms". He got in his '72 Mustang and started to drive home when he started to hallucinate. He was certain that his face was melting off of his skull. He ended up crashing that beautiful Mustang.
Naw, those things don't need to be made legal.
Not in favor of this at all. Geez, those things can cause serious hallucinations.
A guy I was stationed with a couple of times was originally from Lafayette, CO but attended Longmont HS. He told me of a time he went to a HS party and consumed some "magic mushrooms". He got in his '72 Mustang and started to drive home when he started to hallucinate. He was certain that his face was melting off of his skull. He ended up crashing that beautiful Mustang.
Naw, those things don't need to be made legal.
Have you ever done them?
OtterbatHellcat
02-03-2019, 14:49
Not in favor of this at all. Geez, those things can cause serious hallucinations.
A guy I was stationed with a couple of times was originally from Lafayette, CO but attended Longmont HS. He told me of a time he went to a HS party and consumed some "magic mushrooms". He got in his '72 Mustang and started to drive home when he started to hallucinate. He was certain that his face was melting off of his skull. He ended up crashing that beautiful Mustang.
Naw, those things don't need to be made legal.
Agree.
Never done mushrooms, but I have done acid....I can totally see where your mind lets you do things that are insanely wrong. I did some of it. I'm not particularly crazy about pot being legal, but legalizing mushrooms, really? How many new steps of insanity can we climb in one lifetime?
They decriminalized shrooms when I lived in Oregon in the '80s. I remember entire families out in one farmer's field picking them when I lived in Lake Oswego, OR. The farmer didn't care.
As long as you're not endangering others by being under the influence or turning to a life of crime to support your addiction, I really don't care.
‘Magic mushrooms’ may soon be legal in Oregon (https://nypost.com/2018/12/04/magic-mushrooms-may-soon-be-legal-in-oregon/)
GilpinGuy
02-03-2019, 16:59
As long as you're not endangering others by being under the influence or turning to a life of crime to support your addiction, I really don't care.
Pretty much my view on everything.
BPTactical
02-03-2019, 18:00
They decriminalized shrooms when I lived in Oregon in the '80s. I remember entire families out in one farmer's field picking them when I lived in Lake Oswego, OR. The farmer didn't care.
As long as you're not endangering others by being under the influence or turning to a life of crime to support your addiction, I really don't care.
‘Magic mushrooms’ may soon be legal in Oregon (https://nypost.com/2018/12/04/magic-mushrooms-may-soon-be-legal-in-oregon/)
Remember that when your auto insurance goes through the roof again due to "increased frequency of accidents".
Just like it did with MJ.
These people are absolute idiots.
Everyone says they want freedom, until they reveal themselves as hypocrites when it turns out that they don't.
Great-Kazoo
02-03-2019, 18:43
Not in favor of this at all. Geez, those things can cause serious hallucinations.
A guy I was stationed with a couple of times was originally from Lafayette, CO but attended Longmont HS. He told me of a time he went to a HS party and consumed some "magic mushrooms". He got in his '72 Mustang and started to drive home when he started to hallucinate. He was certain that his face was melting off of his skull. He ended up crashing that beautiful Mustang.
Naw, those things don't need to be made legal.
He used them as the excuse for the accident and or mixing the mushrooms with something else.
Agree.
Never done mushrooms, but I have done acid....I can totally see where your mind lets you do things that are insanely wrong. I did some of it. I'm not particularly crazy about pot being legal, but legalizing mushrooms, really? How many new steps of insanity can we climb in one lifetime?
2 different animals. 1 is a natural fungus The other a combo of chemicals, which if not done correctly can screw the pooch.
I'm on the fence with this. Mostly because of all the unintended consequences. I honestly didn't think the legal weed was going to be the shit show it is. I misjudged the masses. I think shrooms that grow wild and free should be left up to the people to decide. A lot of research is hard to get done while it's illegal. Psychedelics also have a history of triggering metal illness. A plus to the legal weed is the CBD. Big fan.
I'm on the fence with this. Mostly because of all the unintended consequences. I honestly didn't think the legal weed was going to be the shit show it is. I misjudged the masses. I think shrooms that grow wild and free should be left up to the people to decide. A lot of research is hard to get done while it's illegal. Psychedelics also have a history of triggering metal illness. A plus to the legal weed is the CBD. Big fan.If the only people tripping on mushrooms were the folks that took the time to harvest their own, AND also took the time to educate themselves not to pick visually similar poisonous varieties, I'd be in complete agreement with you. BUT...
One more step down the slope. First weed, then psychotics, then safe injection sites, then opiates...
Where does it end? Our society is WAY past the personal responsibility/accountability stage where "do what you want, as long as it doesn't harm others" still applies.
Sent from somewhere...
OtterbatHellcat
02-03-2019, 19:30
Open the gates then. Society is starting to pick and choose what is okay to get your freak on with, and not others....opioids are way out of control, but hey, mushrooms are alright?
Opioid crisis my ass, let those bastards O.D. and be done with it. I'm not trying to sound over passionate about it, but let it all go or shut the hell up. And stop asking for public dollars to fix addicts and/or the new psychedelic mushroom problem we're going to face after that is made legal as well. Legalize bath salts too, wtf.
Baby steps. Marijuana, mushrooms...
I?m looking forward to seeing the push for legalizing cocaine, heroine, meth, etc.
Oh, and to make sure you get the right shrooms just pick the ones growing on the cow patties and you?ll be good to go.
OtterbatHellcat
02-03-2019, 19:48
Okay, I'm passionate about it...I really don't have a dog in the fight because I don't use drugs, so grain of salt with the opinion might help. Dunno.
BPTactical
02-03-2019, 19:49
Everyone says they want freedom, until they reveal themselves as hypocrites when it turns out that they don't.
When your "Freedom" costs me more money, increases the odds of being involved in an accident/incident with an individual(s) under the influence, demands additional LE/EMS resources etc?
Ayup
Remember that when your auto insurance goes through the roof again due to "increased frequency of accidents".
Just like it did with MJ.
Hence the qualifier "As long as you're not endangering others...". Personally, I think idiots intoxicated by their cell phones while they just happen to be behind the wheel of a vehicle are a bigger problem. I witness this every day on the road.
I voted against legal MJ because it created a bad precedent. Having states decide what's legal outside of Federal law is just asking for a legal morass.
Then again, as the Feds go deeper off the deep end, a rebellion by the states seems like a natural progression.
Bailey Guns
02-03-2019, 22:02
Opioid crisis my ass, let those bastards O.D. and be done with it.
I just read earlier this weekend where Narcan is legal to buy over the counter in 41 states. Now it's come down to, "Hey, man, if I OD on this shit hit me with the Narcan in my pocket."
GilpinGuy
02-03-2019, 22:14
Hence the qualifier "As long as you're not endangering others...". Personally, I think idiots intoxicated by their cell phones while they just happen to be behind the wheel of a vehicle are a bigger problem. I witness this every day on the road.
I voted against legal MJ because it created a bad precedent. Having states decide what's legal outside of Federal law is just asking for a legal morass.
Then again, as the Feds go deeper off the deep end, a rebellion by the states seems like a natural progression.
Most "freedom loving people" blow right by this simple "principle over preference".
In 2012 marijuana Amendment 64 was on the ballot. That attracted people that probably wouldn't have bothered to vote to cast their liberal ballots. This led to a liberal majority in the state legislature. That resulted in universal background checks and magazine restrictions.
State legal marijuana has also attracted more liberal voters to move to Colorado and the crap that they bring with them.
Magic mushrooms are part of the plan to attract still more liberal voters to move to Colorado. And more anti-gun laws with them.
theGinsue
02-03-2019, 22:18
Have you ever done them?
Nope. Just like JohnnyEgo, I've never done any illegal (or abuse any LEGAL) drugs - with the exception of underage drinking (but NOT when I operated a motor vehicle!). Never will.
Everyone says they want freedom, until they reveal themselves as hypocrites when it turns out that they don't.
Freedom comes at the price of personal responsibility - which we are in exceptionally short supply of these days. Without personal responsibility it's no longer "freedom", it's chaos.
If folks exercised personal responsibility without infringing upon the rights or safety of others, then I might not be so against it. But here we are, seeing daily the bad decisions of others negatively impacting everyone in the state to some degree or other.
When your "Freedom" costs me more money, increases the odds of being involved in an accident/incident with an individual(s) under the influence, demands additional LE/EMS resources etc?
Ayup
This! Yes, as another poster pointed out, texting drivers are also responsible for the ever increases in auto insurance. MJ use has been a factor as well. This impacts me negatively. The poor decisions of others are hitting MY wallet even though I abstain from using the products and from texting while driving (full disclosure: I hate texting even when I'm not behind the wheel of an automobile).
Someone above used the phrase "shit show" to describe the effects legalizing MJ has had. Look at the "travelers" homesteading in our forests without a care to the filth and destruction they are causing. If one opens their eyes and takes a look around their community they too can see the negative effects of the legalized MJ. Crimes of theft have been increasing steadily since the passage of this "right". No, I'm not naive enough to believe it's all due to MJ legalization, but I'm not foolish enough to think that it isn't part of the problem either. Thing is, there are strict rules about where and when you can smoke the stuff. People tend to disregard these restrictions 'cuz "hey, it's legal man". Only a fool would discount this occurring with shroom use.
Now, do I recognize that things like MJ and magic mushrooms can have positive medical uses? You bet I do. But just as my blood pressure medication is regulated, I think the use of products like MJ and shrooms should be closely monitored by a licensed and reputable physician. The misuse of any drug can quickly lead to unintended consequences and negating the positive value of their use.
This is just where I stand on the subject. I'm entitled to my own opinion as is everyone else.
I've never done mushrooms. Which makes me feel like I'd be a total bullshiter if I tried to influence their legal status. I have no idea what mushrooms do, but I've heard an equal amount of anecdotal accounts from both sides.
RblDiver
02-04-2019, 00:21
Having no personal knowledge, I'd just assume (yes I know) it's along the lines of the following:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX0JfPtB1AQ
68Charger
02-04-2019, 07:26
Everyone says they want freedom, until they reveal themselves as hypocrites when it turns out that they don't.
We already are not truly free... as others have pointed out- the actions of others have a fiscal cost to the law-abiding... since they are required to carry insurance by the state and their creditors (if financed).
I've never done mushrooms. Which makes me feel like I'd be a total bullshiter if I tried to influence their legal status. I have no idea what mushrooms do, but I've heard an equal amount of anecdotal accounts from both sides.
So you can't study the effects it has effects on others, and make informed decisions based on those observations?
Given this constraint, how could you even discern psilocybin mushrooms from those that are poisonous, killing you with a single dose?
Having no personal knowledge, I'd just assume (yes I know) it's along the lines of the following:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX0JfPtB1AQ
Yep, pretty much like that.
Insurance costs and misidentification?
68Charger
02-04-2019, 08:20
Insurance costs and misidentification?
Terse answers and sarcasm?
I just don't see how anyone could argue against such a common sense solution as that.
Nope. Just like JohnnyEgo, I've never done any illegal (or abuse any LEGAL) drugs - with the exception of underage drinking (but NOT when I operated a motor vehicle!). Never will.
Freedom comes at the price of personal responsibility - which we are in exceptionally short supply of these days. Without personal responsibility it's no longer "freedom", it's chaos.
If folks exercised personal responsibility without infringing upon the rights or safety of others, then I might not be so against it. But here we are, seeing daily the bad decisions of others negatively impacting everyone in the state to some degree or other.
This! Yes, as another poster pointed out, texting drivers are also responsible for the ever increases in auto insurance. MJ use has been a factor as well. This impacts me negatively. The poor decisions of others are hitting MY wallet even though I abstain from using the products and from texting while driving (full disclosure: I hate texting even when I'm not behind the wheel of an automobile).
Someone above used the phrase "shit show" to describe the effects legalizing MJ has had. Look at the "travelers" homesteading in our forests without a care to the filth and destruction they are causing. If one opens their eyes and takes a look around their community they too can see the negative effects of the legalized MJ. Crimes of theft have been increasing steadily since the passage of this "right". No, I'm not naive enough to believe it's all due to MJ legalization, but I'm not foolish enough to think that it isn't part of the problem either. Thing is, there are strict rules about where and when you can smoke the stuff. People tend to disregard these restrictions 'cuz "hey, it's legal man". Only a fool would discount this occurring with shroom use.
Now, do I recognize that things like MJ and magic mushrooms can have positive medical uses? You bet I do. But just as my blood pressure medication is regulated, I think the use of products like MJ and shrooms should be closely monitored by a licensed and reputable physician. The misuse of any drug can quickly lead to unintended consequences and negating the positive value of their use.
This is just where I stand on the subject. I'm entitled to my own opinion as is everyone else.
There you have it.
BushMasterBoy
02-04-2019, 08:49
I started having cluster headaches a few years ago. Blood vessels swell up around the eye and the pain is unbelievable. I am considering this treatment. Anyone else in this forum have any experience with this disease?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Krs-bD3073w
I wonder why that guy doesn't just microdose? Maybe that just isn't as effective.
68Charger
02-04-2019, 09:19
I just don't see how anyone could argue against such a common sense solution as that.
It was just an example- but whatever... If somebody hasn't learned from what happened with recreational marijuwanna in Calirado, you're not going to listen to reason anyway.
You're still free to do it anyway, regardless of the law- there are just penalties if you're caught.
State by state legalization seems to be a rough road due to the inequities across the country. I suppose some would argue that those small steps are what it takes to arrive at whatever legislation they think they want. I'm torn on the efficacy of state by state legalization. Maybe having a state or two at a time really hyper focuses everyone on just a few areas to work out issues so proven market solutions can just be implemented elsewhere for nationwide roll outs. On the other hand, some small areas may not handle the stress of new populations, companies, and regulations and all the changes that will come with new legislation. Also, I can't think of a single city, town, state, or country whose residents get excited about importing ways of doing things from other places. People generally like to feel that they've created their own unique solutions that fit their demographic.
If somebody hasn't learned from what happened with recreational marijuwanna in Calirado, you're not going to listen to reason anyway.
I'm not looking to be argumentative here, believe it or not, but what specifically has "happened" in Colorado that you're referring to?
68Charger
02-04-2019, 10:06
I'm not looking to be argumentative here, believe it or not, but what specifically has "happened" in Colorado that you're referring to?
Go ahead, continue the "experiment"... by all means- I moved out, so fuck up Colorado all you want.... not my problem anymore.
hollohas
02-04-2019, 11:03
I am equally as pissed at the constant increase in auto insurance, as I have posted in the past.
Question for y'all. What would you think about car insurance companies doing an annual drug test on renewal each year for reduced rates? Would you do it? Would it even help reduce costs if only a few insurance companies offered it? Or would it take the majority of them to do it to reduce rates?
I do an annual physical at work to get a reduced rate on my health insurance. Could the same work for auto? To be clear, the thought is to have the private insurance companies have the drug testing option and not to link it with government issued driver's licenses.
I won't agree to have the little black box that monitors me for "safe driving" installed in my car, I don't like the idea of being constantly monitored. But I'm pretty sure I wouldn't mind doing a drug test to get cleared for cheaper rates.
I would think that the rate reduction wouldn't be as large as you'd think, because whether you're drug free or not, the company has to evaluate the risk of all the other drivers as well. So while you may be less likely to get into a single vehicle accident, I'd think that your chances of a 2+ vehicle accident would be unchanged. Not to mention drug free doesn't mean you aren't drunk driving, have uncontrollable road rage, are just a bad driver, etc.
I would think that the costs of a comprehensive drug test would not outweigh any rate saving for you if you had to pay for the test, nor would the reduced payouts be noticeable if the company were paying for the tests. That's just my opinion, I've never dipped my toe into being an actuary.
BushMasterBoy
02-04-2019, 11:30
Do they get the DNA data too? I'm running double dash cams for my insurance credit rating.
hollohas
02-04-2019, 13:34
Do they get the DNA data too? I'm running double dash cams for my insurance credit rating.Fair concern I suppose. For the drug test to actually prove much, it'd have to be a hair sample. Hard to know what happens with your sample once it's taken. But that'd take the 3rd party drug testing companies deciding they can profit by selling the sample to a separate 3rd party DNA company, who is then going to give it to the FBI (like they already do). Seems like a stretch.
But hell, every baby gets a heal prick blood sample sent to the state already. If the GOV ever decides they want DNA on everyone that they can easily trace along family lines, that's the quickest place to get it.
Do insurance companies currently drop customers who are arrested for driving while on drugs?
Not that I've seen. Years ago when I first got into insurance I had some friends in underwriting (I was in claims). They showed me a policy that was going to be $46,000 for six months. The car was a 1999 Chevy Cavalier. It was a 19 year-old kid with something like 10 tickets and 6 DUIs in a year period. They just raise the rates and let you cancel when they figure out you can't pay.
When people do stupid shit with guns, we should make more laws to make guns less available because people don't take responsibility for their actions.
GilpinGuy
02-04-2019, 22:47
I have esurance and my premiums have been exactly the same for 5 years....due in a few weeks actually. Same rate again.
I have esurance and my premiums have been exactly the same for 5 years....due in a few weeks actually. Same rate again.
Just moved to them. Saved over $200 per month between the cars, house, and RZR. My previous carrier sent me a notice with an $87 increase per month because I live here. No accidents, no tickets.
GilpinGuy
02-04-2019, 23:05
When people do stupid shit with guns, we should make more laws to make guns less available because people don't take responsibility for their actions.
I've made this same argument during very similar discussions here. Many folks don't see their own "preference over principle" dilemma.
If your principle is "I think people should be free to do as they wish, as long as they don't harm others", than you can't have a preference of "I don't think people should do X because I just don't like it....even if it doesn't harm anyone."
Yes, idiots will do dumb shit and harm others. It's a byproduct of a free society. But that behavior should have consequences to dissuade further asshattery. But to make something a crime because someone MIGHT commit a crime later is tyranny.
Outlaw X because someone might commit a crime in the future to obtain X. Seriously? What about the majority of people who WON'T commit a crime to obtain X? Now they are automatically "criminals"? Awesome. 'Merica
SideShow Bob
02-05-2019, 10:13
Deleted.
When people do stupid shit with guns, we should make more laws to make guns less available because people don't take responsibility for their actions.
Only after shifting negative consequences from the individual and forcing collectivization those consequences on third parties.
When was the last time we executed a mass shooter? Murderer? Rapist? Child molester?
When was the last time we let a junky die in the gutter?
IOW...
It's my body, I can do what I want!!!
Also... You can work to pay for my housing, healthcare, illegitimate spawn, and student loan forgiveness from the degree I'll never use. Oh, and I'll vote to take your guns away anyway because the politicians who promise all this free shit happen to also want you disarmed for "reasons."
And my body can be forced to work for all of the above because allowing me to keep my paycheck/own my labor doesn't suit TheParty. But drug use, in a socialist country, certainly does.
FREEDOM!
That's quite the jump Skip. Would you use those same arguments for alcohol, tobacco, and motorcycle helmets? What about something like forced contributions to retirement accounts? That'd be a long game move that would definitely be an overall positive change, but it eliminates the freedom to screw up your life.
That's quite the jump Skip. Would you use those same arguments for alcohol, tobacco, and motorcycle helmets? What about something like forced contributions to retirement accounts? That'd be a long game move that would definitely be an overall positive change, but it eliminates the freedom to screw up your life.
It's not a jump when it's happening right in front of you. You have to be intentionally obtuse to reject the reality of what has happened in this state.
The same argument absolutely apply to all other behaviors.
We can either have freedom or the fresh hell Liberals are creating for us. But not both. This will create competing interests (hypocrisy) that only the gov can resolve with force because morality, law, reason/sanity will fail to resolve them (as we now see in Colorado/Denver).
HI just introduced a bill to completely outlaw cigarettes by 2024, btw. You can rot your mind but not your lungs. Why? One thing is expensive to the collective and the other is currently a benefit (this will change).
In a collectivist utopia, all human behavior has a price tag as do most humans. Accept that or reject it. But don't piss on my back and tell me drug use with socialism is freedom.
It's too bad we can't peak into an alternate universe where Colorado never decriminalized, then legalized weed, so we could see all the similar trends of the state turning blue still in place.
I heard about the Hawaii law this morning. Do you agree with it?
It's too bad we can't peak into an alternate universe where Colorado never decriminalized, then legalized weed, so we could see all the similar trends of the state turning blue still in place.
I heard about the Hawaii law this morning. Do you agree with it?
I don't think you're understanding me...
I don't agree with it in principle. But if gov is putting a gun to my head and forcing me to pay for it (instead of providing for my own family), it becomes a Prisoner's Dilemma of sorts. This isn't freedom. And anyone who thinks advancing drug use of any kind in the status quo is freedom needs to do some critical thinking.
Rhetorical question: Why do the people who promote drug use, do so conditionally (based on substance) if this were a freedom issue?
I don't think the HI law will pass but who knows. It really wouldn't surprise me if it did! HI has a massive meth problem and a massive welfare state funded by tourism. They should have more important things to worry about.
Remove the socialism, restore individual consequences, then this becomes a freedom argument.
I better see why you've added all this talk of socialism to the discussion now. I was generally curious how you felt about the proposed law. I haven't made up my mind about it. I always thought growing up that if cigarettes were as dangerous as everyone knew them to be, then the government would just outright make them illegal instead of trying to milk more money out of people for them.
I get the added costs argument, but I feel like people should really ask themselves where they draw the line on personal responsibility vs collective responsibility. How badly do we want to live in a society where people just die in the gutter?
68Charger
02-05-2019, 12:58
I better see why you've added all this talk of socialism to the discussion now. I was generally curious how you felt about the proposed law. I haven't made up my mind about it. I always thought growing up that if cigarettes were as dangerous as everyone knew them to be, then the government would just outright make them illegal instead of trying to milk more money out of people for them.
I get the added costs argument, but I feel like people should really ask themselves where they draw the line on personal responsibility vs collective responsibility. How badly do we want to live in a society where people just die in the gutter?
Decades ago, Canada did a study on the cost of cigarettes on healthcare (they had socialized healthcare recently)... with the intention finding a high cost so they could justify banning them. The study came back that people who smoke 1+ pack per day did NOT cost more in healthcare- since they were more likely to contract a terminal form of cancer and the treatments were relatively inexpensive (just keeping the patient comfortable until the end), and that they were typically not contributing in taxes at that point in their life. All this was weighed against the tax they were collecting on tobacco.
It was an interesting exercise in just how much gov't cares.
Now maybe there are more health care costs now- but nobody can convince me gov't does anything for the people's benefit... unless it's on accident.
I agree. If cigarettes were killing people at an alarming rate in their 40's, the government would probably be thinking about how the social security ponzi scheme could last several more decades.
BushMasterBoy
02-05-2019, 13:17
I'm just curious, how many court cases involving psilocybe cubensis have there been in Colorado?
Great-Kazoo
02-05-2019, 15:08
I'm just curious, how many court cases involving psilocybe cubensis have there been in Colorado?
With it as the primary reason there was a court case, for possession of small qty, Zero.
I better see why you've added all this talk of socialism to the discussion now. I was generally curious how you felt about the proposed law. I haven't made up my mind about it. I always thought growing up that if cigarettes were as dangerous as everyone knew them to be, then the government would just outright make them illegal instead of trying to milk more money out of people for them.
I get the added costs argument, but I feel like people should really ask themselves where they draw the line on personal responsibility vs collective responsibility. How badly do we want to live in a society where people just die in the gutter?
Want people dying in the gutter? Nope, don't want that at all. Have to respect those consequences, otherwise one man's freedom becomes another's tyranny.
Or we use violence against people for their own well being (WoD), which is (full circle) not freedom.
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