View Full Version : Notre Dame Cathedral is burning. Looks to be a total loss.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/04/15/notre-dame-cathedral-fire-paris/3474597002/
A massive fire was raging Monday at the famed Notre Dame cathedral in Paris as shocked crowds gathered on streets, bridges and squares to watch one of the globe's most iconic churches burn.
The cathedral's spire was engulfed in flames before tumbling over. Video footage from the scene showed fire and smoke spewing from the landmark, one of the world's most popular tourist destinations and home to priceless works of art. The flames appeared to be shooting out of the roof behind the nave of the cathedral.
Most of the world is probably watching. End of an era. Wonder if it was an accident or arson. If the latter, might change the world for a while.
It's gone.
Lots of speculation on the socials. French government was saying it's a renno accident while the fire was still burning. I'm skeptical given recent attacks on churches in France, but either way, France failed to protect a precious Christian site that made them bank in tourism.
What's that thing the Socialists say about having fire departments?
Absolutely tragic... I'd never even given much thought about my desire to go see it, but knowing now that I cannot is heart breaking.
thedave1164
04-15-2019, 14:18
Did Quasimodo make it out safely?
Well I can scratch that off my list of things to see some day.
Not that I really had it in there in the first place.
RblDiver
04-15-2019, 14:50
I was surprised at how much it was flaming, thinking that cathedrals were like 99% stone, but obviously not. The site below has a picture from the attic areas, which shows how they were mostly wood.
https://hotair.com/archives/2019/04/15/massive-fire-notre-dame-cathedral/
Glad I toured it in 2011 - impressive bit of architecture, art, and history.
Was amused to see the souvenir shop setup inside [facepalm]
Absolutely tragic... I'd never even given much thought about my desire to go see it, but knowing now that I cannot is heart breaking.
I was wondering to myself who would take this harder, people who've been there and can appreciate what the world has lost, or those who realize that they'll now never personally know.
Great-Kazoo
04-15-2019, 14:56
Breaking news. A body was found in the ashes.
Authorities identified is as the Hunchblack of Notre Dame
RblDiver
04-15-2019, 14:59
They're saying on the news the Crown of Thorns has been saved, and that officials expect the structure to be saved (not the roof and whatnot obviously, but the general structure itself).
The Catholic Church has billions in assets. They can afford to rebuild and restore it.
Sucks that it happened, though.
The Catholic Church has billions in assets. They can afford to rebuild and restore it.
Sucks that it happened, though.
This.
If I get around to seeing it someday it should be freshly remodeled.
Glad I toured it in 2011 - impressive bit of architecture, art, and history.
Was amused to see the souvenir shop setup inside [facepalm]
The shops support all that architecture, art, and history often in lieu of admission. It's not odd to see them in historical churches. St. Patrick's in NYC is no different. Vatican Museum has an amazing gift shop.
I do think it's tacky to have them in a sanctuary. But a lobby/hall is no problem. Bills have to get paid!
wctriumph
04-15-2019, 15:11
I have a hard time with there not being a very effective fire fighting contingency for such a historic landmark. Sad to see this happen, still going big at this time.
The shops support all that architecture, art, and history often in lieu of admission. It's not odd to see them in historical churches. St. Patrick's in NYC is no different. Vatican Museum has an amazing gift shop.
I do think it's tacky to have them in a sanctuary. But a lobby/hall is no problem. Bills have to get paid!
Yep, toured the Vatican as well.
The Catholic Church is not hurting for funds.
Tacky is one word for it - Jesus used stronger language.
Yep, toured the Vatican as well.
The Catholic Church is not hurting for funds.
Tacky is one word for it - Jesus used stronger language.
The money changers in the temple were enriching themselves. These shops maintain the church/site. Not so subtle nuance.
If I count Sunday offertory am I going to hell?
Also, I had to look this one up because I wasn't sure myself...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre-Dame_de_Paris#Ownership
Under a 1905 law, Notre-Dame de Paris is among seventy churches in Paris built before that year that are owned by the French State. While the building itself is owned by the state, the Catholic Church is the designated beneficiary, having the exclusive right to use it for religious purpose in perpetuity. The archdiocese is responsible for paying the employees, security, heating and cleaning, and assuring that the cathedral is open free to visitors. The archdiocese does not receive subsidies from the French State.[33]
So France gets the tourism dollars/ownership, Rome gets use of the building and has to pay all the expenses.
Vatican's estimated wealth is $30B. France's GDP is $2.5T and as Socialists they lay claim to all of it, less what they allow workers to keep.
I was wondering to myself who would take this harder, people who've been there and can appreciate what the world has lost, or those who realize that they'll now never personally know.
I think those who know the value of what has been lost will take it harder... those of us, like myself, who have no true understanding, can only "wonder".
I think those who know the value of what has been lost will take it harder... those of us, like myself, who have no true understanding, can only "wonder".
Start booking your trips now!
There are still amazing cathedrals to be seen in Europe. A single trip to Italy hitting Rome, Florence, Venice, and Milan will give you a lifetime of memories. You can spend about two weeks, feel good, but then realize all you still missed! :)
Dave Ramsey says this is only acceptable use for credit cards. (he didn't say that)
Circuits
04-15-2019, 16:26
The Catholic Church has billions in assets. They can afford to rebuild and restore it.
Sucks that it happened, though.
Trillions, probably. IIRC, the Catholic church is the single largest real estate owner in the entire world.
Bailey Guns
04-15-2019, 16:33
I went there when I was a kid...1970 or 71, I think. It was pretty awe inspiring, even then. They started building the cathedral in 1163, for crying out loud. It doesn't matter who owns it or who gets how much from whatever, it's a shame to see such an historical treasure go up in smoke. It survived two world wars and countless other assaults at various times. It may be salvaged and rebuilt but it won't be the same. Really a shame.
My first thought was workers caused the fire...welding, maybe. I haven't heard anything about what actually happened.
Just flipped on NPR on my way home to see what was going on. There were interviewing a lady that has been reporting on the ongoing restoration and she was saying how bad of shape the church was in because the church had no money for any actual repairs. :shrug:
Breaking news. A body was found in the ashes.
Authorities identified is as the Hunchblack of Notre Dame
Hunchblack?
Smoked Hunchback ribs:
Wrap in hundreds of years of history, smoke at 500 degrees for seven hours, let rest for one hour.
hollohas
04-15-2019, 19:49
My first thought was workers caused the fire...welding, maybe. I haven't heard anything about what actually happened.
Construction accident is a perfectly reasonable theory and is not an uncommon cause of building fires. But, the timing is hard to ignore and makes me wonder if it may have not been an accident. Dunno.
You could see all of the scaffolding that was in place when the fire broke out. Saw a blurb that a bunch of bronze statues had been removed last week for the renovation.
Amazing that it survived 9 centuries and 2 world wars only to go down to an accident trying to help the structure.
With so many of the artisan skills required to build such a structure, it will be interesting to see how it's rebuilt. Do you think they'll make the bones from steel this time around?
Much of the roof and spire were made with lead coated oak. Wonder if they were melting lead for touchup and had an issue with the melting pot.
ruthabagah
04-15-2019, 20:51
I went there when I was a kid...1970 or 71, I think. It was pretty awe inspiring, even then. They started building the cathedral in 1163, for crying out loud. It doesn't matter who owns it or who gets how much from whatever, it's a shame to see such an historical treasure go up in smoke. It survived two world wars and countless other assaults at various times. It may be salvaged and rebuilt but it won't be the same. Really a shame.
My first thought was workers caused the fire...welding, maybe. I haven't heard anything about what actually happened.
BG: Spot on. All of it.
I reached out to one of my relative who recently retired from the Parisian firefighting force (all professional force and a branch of the military), and everything point to an accident so far. They are currently interviewing all the workers who were on site today, until 17.30. Fire started at 18.00. The first firefighters were on site within 5 minute, but heavy equipment was stuck in the rush hour traffic until 18.20. By then it was already too late and the fire had already spread under the roof.
The Cathedral is far from being a total loss. The towers and the stone structure are sound at this time. It will take time to rebuild, but it will be an opportunity to return it to it's pre-1800' conditions. A LOT of damage were done during what was more of a remodel than a restauration. Notre Dame has endured for over 800 years, through multiple wars and revolutions. It will be back.
BushMasterBoy
04-15-2019, 21:14
Hoser could have put it out with MAFF!
Isn't Paris overrun with Muslims? Who hate Christians, Christianity, and everything associated with it? And there's been how many Christian churches set on fire there recently? And the government was hollering that it was an accident before it was even put out?
Seems suspicious.....where's my popcorn.....
encorehunter
04-16-2019, 04:50
Hoser could have put it out with MAFF!
Paint the town red, especially the church...
Firehaus
04-16-2019, 07:23
I had no idea it was built on top of pagan Jupiter temples.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/04/15/notre-dame-cathedral-fire-5-things-know-famed-paris-church/3474807002/
?Why was Notre Dame cathedral built?
Maurice de Sully, who became bishop of Paris in 1160, wanted to reconstruct the site where Notre Dame sits, which had been a Romanesque church and pagan temple.?
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/the-history-of-notre-dame-cathedral-in-paris-57164
?Notre-Dame was built on the ruins of two earlier churches which were themselves built over a temple dedicated to the Roman God Jupiter.?
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Jupiter-Roman-god
Jupiter, also called Jove, Latin Iuppiter, Iovis, orDiespiter, the chief ancient Roman and Italian god. Like Zeus, the Greek god with whom he is etymologically identical (root diu, ?bright?), Jupiter was a sky god. One of his most ancient epithets is Lucetius (?Light-Bringer?);
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
hollohas
04-16-2019, 07:31
Given the timing and the recent arson and vandalism at many other French churches, I'm skeptical.
https://www.breitbart.com/faith/2019/03/20/twelve-french-churches-attacked-vandalized-in-one-week/
StagLefty
04-16-2019, 07:34
My son was just there this past October. Glad his trip was in time to see it. I have a HUNCH Quasimodo won't be BACK!!!
Too soon?
https://oi1094.photobucket.com/albums/i445/TangoDownPro/Dragon%20Roasting%20Notre%20Dame_zpsiqx8vmh3.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/TangoDownPro/media/Dragon%20Roasting%20Notre%20Dame_zpsiqx8vmh3.jpg.h tml)
BPTactical
04-16-2019, 09:30
The Gargoyles that had sat atop those walls since it was built were removed for renovation last week.
Dont remove yo Gargoyles folks, bad things happen if you do!
Incredibly sad to see this happen to such an incredible piece of history, regardless of your religious views.
Mrs. Hummer was searching things to see and do in Paris when news of the fire broke out. It's a terrible loss but the cathedral will surely be rebuilt with more sustainable materials. Historically, fire has been the principal destroyer of human settlements. It is remarkable that the cathedral survived both WWI & WWII when Germany targeted many of the churches, ancient castles and fortresses.
I've been following the Yellow Vest movement in France which is a nationalist rejection of the globalist integration of muslims throughout the western world. I wonder how France might respond if the fire is found to be due to another Islamist attack on Notre Dame? Under Macron, probably very little, but I doubt he will remain in office long.
It's worth remembering that were it not for the support of France during the American Revolution that Americans would very likely still be subjects of the British monarchy.
The Gargoyles that had sat atop those walls since it was built were removed for renovation last week.
Dont remove yo Gargoyles folks, bad things happen if you do!
[snip]
Truth.
I tried to put some gargoyles and the HOA said I couldn't. I told them they were gay gargoyles and I'd sue. They still said no.
--
Looking much better than last night but I'm still skeptical on what France will do. A restoration would mean a commitment to Christianity and that would be (sadly) controversial. But a restoration would also mean tourism revenue.
https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2019/04/notre-dame-754.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=915
Bailey Guns
04-16-2019, 11:06
It's worth remembering that were it not for the support of France during the American Revolution that Americans would very likely still be subjects of the British monarchy.
While that could be true, 18th Century France is not 21st Century France. Of course the same could be said about the US.
newracer
04-16-2019, 11:10
It will be restored. It is the number one tourist destination in France. They have already received ~$500 million in pledges.
BPTactical
04-16-2019, 12:51
Truth.
I tried to put some gargoyles and the HOA said I couldn't. I told them they were gay gargoyles and I'd sue. They still said no.
--
Looking much better than last night but I'm still skeptical on what France will do. A restoration would mean a commitment to Christianity and that would be (sadly) controversial. But a restoration would also mean tourism revenue.
https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2019/04/notre-dame-754.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=915
That pic has an eerie air to it.
BPTactical
04-16-2019, 12:52
Given the timing and the recent arson and vandalism at many other French churches, I'm skeptical.
https://www.breitbart.com/faith/2019/03/20/twelve-french-churches-attacked-vandalized-in-one-week/
If arson proves true on this and it has an Islamic underpinning one would think they just royally pissed of the entire Catholic world....
That pic has an eerie air to it.
I think it's beautiful.
The church lays in ruin but the cross is still there. Very powerful symbol.
If this was anything other than an accident, we will likely never be told by "authorities." It directly contradicts the promises of immigration and demographic change in Europe. Which is why my spidey sense went off when "authorities" said it was an accident as the fire was still burning. How could they possibly know?
Well, if a worker accidentally started it and said so, that'd be a good indication. Then they might not be interviewing workers though.
I think it's beautiful.
The church lays in ruin but the cross is still there. Very powerful symbol.
If this was anything other than an accident, we will likely never be told by "authorities." It directly contradicts the promises of immigration and demographic change in Europe. Which is why my spidey sense went off when "authorities" said it was an accident as the fire was still burning. How could they possibly know?
You're confused how first responders and witnesses could come forth with a cause?
You're confused how first responders and witnesses could come forth with a cause?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/paris-notre-dame-fire-extinguished-revealing-massive-damage-to-the-800-year-old-landmark-situation-still-precarious
?What we know at this stage is that there was an initial alarm at 6:20 p.m., followed by a procedure to verify this but no fire as found,? Heitz explained. ?Then, there was a second alarm at 6:43 p.m. and at that point a fire was detected in the structure.?
https://abc7news.com/no-evidence-of-arson-in-notre-dame-fire-prosecutor-says/5252972/
The Paris prosecutor said Tuesday morning there's no evidence of arson in the Notre Dame fire and that they're working on the assumption that the blaze was an accident.
Remy Heitz says the investigation will be "long and complex."
[snip]
The first time, some people, including a fire official permanently working on the site, went to check under the roof and saw nothing. The second time it was already too late because the fire was too strong, the official said.
He added that 40 to 50 investigators are working on the case but are not allowed to enter the monument yet for safety reasons.
So what witnesses? The ones that saw nothing after the first alarm? Or the ones that saw the fire out of control on the second alarm?
"No proof of arson" is a fine statement, I believe that. "We know it was an accident" well, I don't believe that until they can come up with cause/origin.
I've been in a structure that was smoking for hours due to an electrical issue. We couldn't see anything, but smelled burning for at least an hour before we got the fire department involved.
BladesNBarrels
04-16-2019, 16:08
It's worth remembering that were it not for the support of France during the American Revolution that Americans would very likely still be subjects of the British monarchy.
True!
And, if we had not supported France during World War I and World War II, they would be speaking German.
You might say, they paid it forward?
CobaltSkink
04-16-2019, 16:17
Zing!
Nearly a billion raised in the first day. With Easter coming up, 5 billion is probably a low number; 50 is quite possible.
And the trash people never rest...
https://twitter.com/Goodtweet_man/status/1118289495819018240
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4T2XhBXoAA3MBk.jpg:small
Why the hell do you care Rolling Stone? Not your money, not your building, not your problem.
Bell towers will probably be turned into minarets.
Why the hell do you care Rolling Stone? Not your money, not your building, not your problem.
Exactly.
But they have an interest in the destruction of Western Civ.
--
Could just be covering his own ass, could be telling the truth. And I don't know what "no worker" means. Does that mean his employees or absolutely no workers because the first stories said that there were workers on site when it started?
And that's also interesting because I didn't think French blue collar worked until 6:00PM.
https://twitter.com/BFMTV/status/1118113920500273152
https://imgur.com/gt5c4Rp.jpg
That's kind of like saying that absolutely no one was present at an unattended camp fire when the forest fire started though, isn't it?
Rucker61
04-16-2019, 20:13
I think it's beautiful.
The church lays in ruin but the cross is still there. Very powerful symbol.
If this was anything other than an accident, we will likely never be told by "authorities." It directly contradicts the promises of immigration and demographic change in Europe. Which is why my spidey sense went off when "authorities" said it was an accident as the fire was still burning. How could they possibly know?
Of course, wood fires burn about 400F less than the melting point of gold, and the fire got nowhere near the cross.
If arson proves true on this and it has an Islamic underpinning one would think they just royally pissed of the entire Catholic world....
Not again...
BPTactical
04-16-2019, 21:17
Not again...
Yup, again.
The Caliphate is the second coming of the Crusades.
Aloha_Shooter
04-16-2019, 22:23
Truth.
I tried to put some gargoyles and the HOA said I couldn't. I told them they were gay gargoyles and I'd sue. They still said no.
--
Looking much better than last night but I'm still skeptical on what France will do. A restoration would mean a commitment to Christianity and that would be (sadly) controversial. But a restoration would also mean tourism revenue.
https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2019/04/notre-dame-754.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=915
That picture this morning was an amazing, inspirational one. After watching the fire going for 3 hours and the spire/roof collapse, I expected a lot more devastation inside.
Of course, wood fires burn about 400F less than the melting point of gold, and the fire got nowhere near the cross.
One of the reasons they had so much trouble putting the fire out was that there was SO much wood in there. Dry seasoned wood. Heat builds in the space betwen timbers or items that are on fire, especially in a tightly concentrated space with a chimney effect going. Temperatures from a wood fire in a traditional cob oven like a wood-fired pizza oven can hit 900F.
Over a billion dollars in donations so far. Estimates are that the building can be restored in 15-20 years, which is f'n amazing. I hope to still get to see it in person at some point in my life. I've long wanted to take a few months and just tour western Europe to enjoy the scenery, the history and the culture.
Over a billion dollars in donations so far. Estimates are that the building can be restored in 15-20 years, which is f'n amazing. I hope to still get to see it in person at some point in my life. I've long wanted to take a few months and just tour western Europe to enjoy the scenery, the history and the culture.
Didn't entire castles take about fifteen years to build in the middle ages from scratch? And pyramids were built in those kind of timeframes? I'm not impressed by twenty years with a billion+ dollars and modern tools tbh.
Didn't entire castles take about fifteen years to build in the middle ages from scratch? And pyramids were built in those kind of timeframes? I'm not impressed by twenty years with a billion+ dollars and modern tools tbh.
Well, it took like 96 years the first time.
Well, it took like 96 years the first time.
But most of that time was spent with thumb in ass, e.g. things like "aligning logs with the energy of the earth" and letting them sit for 25 years a time, or storing logs in a swamp for another 25 years, etc. etc. Kind of the same type of thing you'd expect progressive unionized french construction workers to do now.... and now fifteen years makes sense.
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2019/04/victor_davis_hanson_weighs_in_on_the_notre_dame_ca thedral_fire_brilliantly.html
Victor Davis Hanson in conversation with Laura Ingraham, The Ingraham Angle, Fox News Channel, Tuesday April 16, 2019:
LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS CHANNEL HOST: Hundreds marched through the streets of Paris today to ask for the intercession of Notre Dame, Our Lady. The cathedral named in her honor was heavily damaged by fire yesterday, but it is structurally sound. French President Macron vows it will be rebuilt as donations pour in from around the world. And amid the tragedy at Notre Dame, there is a lesson to be learned.
Joining me now is Victor Davis Hanson, senior fellow at the Hoover Institution. Victor, you say there's an irony in the history here in the aftermath of this architectural tragedy, tragedy in terms of what we've lost in church history. What is the irony?
VICTOR DAVIS HANSON, HOOVER INSTITUTION: After 800 years, we were the steward of this iconic representation of western civilization, Catholicism, Christendom. And of all the years, 2019, at the height of our sophistication and technology, I'm not blaming the French or anybody, but we were found wanting and we didn't protect this icon. And we don't build them anymore.
There's great churches and cathedrals that go up all over the world, but, Laura, they are in Poland. They are in Cairo. They are in the Ivory Coast, they're in Brazil, they're in India. It's almost as if the places that are less affluent without the technology of western Europe and the United States are like we used to be. They still believe in transcendence. They still believe in something other than this world.
And so it's going to be very hard in our society to ever build a cathedral again, much less to repair them, because we don't believe in what they represented. And it's ironic, because we don't like the past. We are at war with the past. We tear down monuments. We don't build cathedrals. We erase names. We say to Father Serra or Christopher Columbus, you don't live up to our standards of race, class, and gender, moral superiority. Shame on you.
INGRAHAM: We'll wipe you out.
HANSON: And when you have that attitude, you don't have a reference. Yes, we are not good stewards of the inheritance that were bequeathed to us.
INGRAHAM: So Victor, in "Rolling Stone" today, this was what was written. "Any rebuilding should be a reflection not of an old France or the France that never was, a non-secular, white European France, but a reflection of the France of today, a France that is currently in the making." So kind of an interfaith, very large gathering house, Victor, is that what the new cathedral will be?
HANSON: Yes, the person who said that of course, they could be at Verdun and say to the German army you shall not pass, and save French democracy from the Kaiser, or they could have been in the French resistance in World War II and say we're not going to let the Nazis take over the beauty and wonder of France. And this is the France of Madame Curie, and this is the France of the Enlightenment. So for this ignoramus to say that modern France is so much greater than its checkered past, he's a creation of French intellectual excellence and beauty and cultural superiority in many ways.
We owe ? much of the world owes a lot to France, and that was embodied with the Notre Dame Cathedral. It's embodied in the Louvre, it's embodied in the French Academy. And he should be really ashamed of himself, because he's a pygmy, and he's really sitting on the shoulders of giants whose names we have forgotten in this period of intellectual and cultural arrogance.
INGRAHAM: Victor, we talk about this a lot. We are almost out of time. But universities spend an enormous amount of time, students' time and energy and tuition dollars, tearing down western civilization. It wasn't so great, the music wasn't so great, architecture, history riddled with racism and classism and all these other things.
So all day long on colleges, we hear western civilization, bad. Then people cry when they see this spire collapse in the flames that can never be rebuilt as it was built. We don't have the wood. We don't have the artisans. It can be rebuilt, but it will never be what it was. But they spent all day trashing western civilization, and now people are rightly mourning it. But it's an imbalance. Final thoughts, real quick.
HANSON: Because they feel something. They feel there is a spiritual loss, there's a cultural loss. But they are too timid or cowardly to articulate it, because to articulate it would not be politically correct. But it's such beauty that transcends things. They can feel it. They just don't want to admit they feel it.
INGRAHAM: They don't want to admit the God thing. Victor, thank you so much. Great to see you, as always.
They have no idea what they're talking about. A bunch of never Catholic, never French people talking about what French Catholics want. Pointless talking heads.
The country has no problem rebuilding Notre Dame. The liberal French president had already sworn to rebuild before the flames were extinguished. French citizens have donated a billion dollars to the restoration in just 48 hours.
They have no idea what they're talking about. A bunch of never Catholic, never French people talking about what French Catholics want. Pointless talking heads.
The country has no problem rebuilding Notre Dame. The liberal French president had already sworn to rebuild before the flames were extinguished. French citizens have donated a billion dollars to the restoration in just 48 hours.
France Debates a Modern Spire for Notre Dame
https://www.wsj.com/articles/france-announces-competition-to-rebuild-notre-dames-spire-11555506233
French Prime Minister ?douard Philippe said the competition would address the question of whether, “as is often the case for the evolution of patrimony and cathedrals, Notre Dame should be given a new spire adapted to the techniques and challenges of our era.”
France has a history of updating its monuments with modern flourishes in ways that divide the public, such as the three glass-and-steel pyramids the government built in the 1980s in the courtyard of the Louvre Museum.
[snip]
Architects say a key decision will be whether to use modern materials such as steel and tempered glass to rebuild or to insist on mostly original materials.
If the country is even questioning a faithful restoration (competition) that tells us something.
I think the secular modernists will lose this fight but they are sure trying hard!
I think the secular modernists will lose this fight but they are sure trying hard!
That's my perception as well. Some are thinking about financial benefit, not religion.
Aloha_Shooter
04-19-2019, 13:12
Oh, I think they're thinking about religion -- they're using this as an opportunity to undercut or undermine it yet again by "modernizing" a centuries-old symbol of France's religious past (which honestly isn't all that glorious aside from the architectural achievements).
France Debates a Modern Spire for Notre Dame
https://www.wsj.com/articles/france-announces-competition-to-rebuild-notre-dames-spire-11555506233
If the country is even questioning a faithful restoration (competition) that tells us something.
I think the secular modernists will lose this fight but they are sure trying hard!
The spire was erected in 1890, it was a modern addition to an already 500 year old structure. The original argument was that France doesn't build cathedrals anymore, which there is no question of them doing here.
The spire was erected in 1890, it was a modern addition to an already 500 year old structure. The original argument was that France doesn't build cathedrals anymore, which there is no question of them doing here.
The spire replaced a much older one (1200s) but was done in the French Gothic tradition, it was not a modernist addition as it would have been Beaux Arts. You'd be hard pressed to find any controversy just as a faithful restoration in 2019 wouldn't create controversy.
You said the French were dedicated to a restoration and people should shut up. That is not the case, you snipped the piece about the French PM and the "international contest" to take a modernist shit over history/culture/values to own Conservatives.
The Rolling Stone quote also explains the significance of this as "a reflection of France today" signaling Liberal values (i.e. this is not about utility/changing the function of the structure).
clodhopper
04-21-2019, 16:29
On the news this morning, there is the thought that the current best documentation of the pre-burn structure is the model in the game Assassin's Creed.
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/05/our_collective_dive_off_the_cliff.html
May 24, 2019
Our Collective Dive off the Cliff
By Christopher Skeet
The burning of the Cathedral of Notre Dame ? in the heart of Paris, in the heart of France, in the heart of Europe, in the heart of Christendom and Western civilization ? was an absolute cultural catastrophe. In the fire's aftermath, there poured forth an avalanche of articles ? penned by authors no doubt sincere and well intentioned ? about resilience, about perseverance, about timeless truths, about rising from the ashes, about wake-up calls, etc.
I purposely waited a month to see how much time would pass before, as a society, we refocused on more monumental concerns, such as President Trump's abysmal golf scores or at what point during S8E5 Daenerys lost it. In a fit of na?vet?, I wildly overestimated our capability for perspective. Turns out I needed to wait about fourteen minutes.
When Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-Minneapolistan) referred to Notre Dame as just "art and architecture," she meant it as a deliberate jab, wrapped in blatantly dishonest compassion. But does her categorization really differ from how most of the Western world views Notre Dame? How many among the 95% of France's non-Catholic population regard it as a house of God, worthy of spiritual veneration and deference, and not just a profitable tourist magnet? How many media talking heads lament its loss while holding contempt for the cathedral's living congregants and the ideas that led them there? How many comprehend that the cultural vigor with which it was constructed has been a smoldering ruin since long before this past April?
Over at CNN, Frida Ghitis penned a heartwarming, sincere panegyric, but one in which she cannot help but refer to Notre Dame as "a building, technically a religious structure." Technically a religious structure? I wonder what tipped Ghitis off. The giant crucifix bestriding the altar? The religious imagery that adorns literally every surface of the place? The masses of people who gather there daily to pray? What facet of the building does Ghitis consider technically a non-religious structure? Ghitis is not Omar, and I doubt she chose her words to deliberately insult the faithful. More likely, this is how she and her peers genuinely regard Notre Dame, and she sees nothing disrespectful in the reference.
It is heartbreaking that Notre Dame burned. But it is maddeningly tragic that we no longer possess the religious faith, the civilizational confidence, or the collective will to build something so transcendent ever again. President Macron set a five-year timetable for reconstruction. We'll see. It took America, supposedly the strongest, most resilient, most dynamic nation in history, a humiliating thirteen years to build a single skyscraper where the Twin Towers stood (both of which were completed after six years, in 1972). And building tall rectangles is something we're allegedly good at.
And why should we be thinking in terms of transcendence? Modern society is the pathetic dead end down a path whose meandering death march began in the 1790s in Europe and in the 1960s in America. Its pathfinders had no compass, certainly not a moral one, and were guided solely by following their basest instincts ? i.e., a devotion not to God or humanity, but only to themselves, in the crude form of hyper-sexualized instant gratification and reflexive tribalism. Without God, the underlying question of most official postmodern thought of the last century has been a poorly concealed yet omnipresent "What's in it for me?"
Satisfying as it may be to blame this current attitude on the pronounced shortcomings of Generation Twitter, the ugly fact is that our civilizational rout can indeed trace its opening salvos to the French Revolution. In 1789, that revolt dictated that a complete destruction of every preceding institution and custom was absolutely necessary in order to achieve "progress," as its beholders defined it. Christianity, both institutional and organic, was targeted, as was its underlying moral code of sacrifice, mercy, and justice. By the time the Revolution cannibalized itself, the cultural damage had been done, and European civilization has been rotting ever since.
What has France created since the Revolution? The Sacr? Coeur de Montmartre and the Eiffel Tower are impressive structures in themselves, but they are architectural stillbirths next to Notre Dame and the Palace of Versailles. And one need not stare awestruck at every magnificent exhibit at the Louvre to then taste the insidious bile in the throat while trudging through the cesspool of modern "art" at the Centre Pompidou.
Has Germany produced another Bach, Austria another Mozart? England another Milton or Shakespeare? Which E.U. artists compare to Michelangelo or Raphael? Can Leiden provide a contemporary Jan Steen? Florence, a modern Filippo Brunelleschi or Dante Alighieri? Can any modern university cultivate another Thomas Aquinas?
As for the Catholic Church itself, can we ever again hope for leadership that actually defends Christianity against an increasingly hostile world? When bombs rip through churches in Sri Lanka, killing hundreds of praying Christians during Holy Week, that political creature we generously refer to as Pope Francis can barely be bothered to denounce, in his words, the "traumatic event." Christian blood still moistened the altars when the successor of St. Peter got back to denouncing humanity's true enemies: blue-collar Westerners who succumb to the "glitter of wealth" because they no longer wash their clothes down by the river.
In America, mass media have obliterated the natural protection our oceans once afforded us. Our religion is likewise adrift in self-doubt and moral cowardice. The empty pews in our IKEA churches echo sermons written to assure the long departed Episcopalian, Presbyterian, and Lutheran congregants that God should change His expectations to fit to our lifestyles, not vice versa. There is little call for self-denial, reflection, humility, or anything that would normally be considered a beneficial method with which to build character. As for Judaism, respect for Y-AHW-H is a relic for the Orthodox clingers who dress weird and have weird customs and who brainwash their weird kids with weird ideas and who really should be held in suspicion as much by modern progressives as by young, frustrated Viennese artists prior to the First World War. Reform Judaism is where it's at...hip, cool, almost anti-Judaic in a radical chic sense. The scriptures to be pored over are not the Proverbs or Gospels of the respective Testaments, but rather the findings of the latest Quinnipiac poll as to how public opinion is shifting on taxpayer-funded transition therapy for our systematically oppressed otherkin cohorts. Religious leaders are either oblivious to or indifferent toward the reality that theological doctrines that represent fickle political weathervanes rather than timeless truths contradict a significant reason people find solace in religion to begin with.
Eventually, the Sistine Chapel will collapse. Da Vinci's Last Supper will discolor and fade. Mozart's Requiem will go unheard, Shakespeare's Henry V will go unwatched, and our Bill of Rights will see its last corner ripped away. And we will not produce anything comparable to take their places.
History will not entirely forget that there was such a thing as Western civilization. As with the post-Roman world, there will remain a gutted coliseum here, a few stone pillars there. As with Napoleon to the Egyptians, who had no idea what the pyramids were, perhaps someone in our distant future will sail ashore and explain to subsequent generations what these temples and paintings and monuments actually stood for.
Our immediate future is more Huxley than Orwell, our people freely choosing a life of enslavement to opiates and to sex with people whose names we can't be bothered to know. Those rare humans who choose to clutch precariously an existence devoted to the betterment of mind, body, and soul will (probably) not be whisked away in the dead of night to the gulag. They will merely be relegated to the fringes of acceptable society, their natural habitats and proclivities to be fleetingly observed by their fascinated, curious betters like a prehistoric animal whose species somehow survived all this time in the depths of a Congo jungle.
The Cathedral of Notre Dame is medieval history. Its fire last April is ancient history. It was witnessed by a people who have no history, and who will leave no history.
Rucker61
05-24-2019, 10:39
I've heard that the reconstruction will take so long that the only person who will still be alive to see the completion is Keith Richards.
Delfuego
05-24-2019, 11:02
What has France created since the Revolution? How about the Statue Of Fucking Liberty?
ChickNorris
05-24-2019, 11:18
I've heard that the reconstruction will take so long that the only person who will still be alive to see the completion is Keith Richards.
Giggle
When Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-Minneapolistan) referred to Notre Dame as just "art and architecture," she meant it as a deliberate jab, wrapped in blatantly dishonest compassion. But does her categorization really differ from how most of the Western world views Notre Dame? How many among the 95% of France's non-Catholic population regard it as a house of God, worthy of spiritual veneration and deference, and not just a profitable tourist magnet? How many media talking heads lament its loss while holding contempt for the cathedral's living congregants and the ideas that led them there? How many comprehend that the cultural vigor with which it was constructed has been a smoldering ruin since long before this past April?
Good thing Christopher Skeet wasn't reading this thread.
Glad I toured it in 2011 - impressive bit of architecture, art, and history.
Was amused to see the souvenir shop setup inside [facepalm]
Edit: This isn't supposed to be a slight on Dave, just the whiny author; whom I'm surprised hasn't started a petition to get the world news media to re-write their reactions and coverage.
How about the Statue Of Fucking Liberty?
He shoots and he scores!!!
The fact this country exists as an entity free from British rule has a lot to do with assistance from France.
How about the Statue Of Fucking Liberty?
What has France created since the Revolution? The Sacr" Coeur de Montmartre and the Eiffel Tower are impressive structures in themselves, but they are architectural stillbirths next to Notre Dame and the Palace of Versailles. And one need not stare awestruck at every magnificent exhibit at the Louvre to then taste the insidious bile in the throat while trudging through the cesspool of modern "art" at the Centre Pompidou.
Context counts.
The empty pews in our IKEA churches echo sermons written to assure the long departed Episcopalian, Presbyterian, and Lutheran congregants that God should change His expectations to fit to our lifestyles, not vice versa.
Yes. :(
And I think this is why so many sense the cathedral's existence as a sacred place is fragile. Even in the US, funding and maintaining such a structure would be financially difficult as our churches rely on collections that compete with modern cost of living and taxes.
As for the Catholic Church itself, can we ever again hope for leadership that actually defends Christianity against an increasingly hostile world?
https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2019/05/21/cardinal-burke-limiting-muslim-immigration-patriotic
During a pro-life and pro-family conference in Rome May 17, the day before Italy's March for Life, Cardinal Burke outlined his views on immigration.
"To resist large-scale Muslim immigration in my judgment is to be responsible," Cardinal Burke said, responding to a written question.
A lot of things are rapidly changing in the Church. There is more recognition that globalist schemes are making the world less Christian and that will trigger more resistance.
I've always felt that people don't have to be Christian, or go to church, to see the value in living in a Christian society. We are losing that and I'm pleasantly surprised to hear a lot of atheists/agnostics point this out as well.
I've always felt that people don't have to be Christian, or go to church, to see the value in living in a Christian society. We are losing that and I'm pleasantly surprised to hear a lot of atheists/agnostics point this out as well.
You may be interested in this podcast about "Religious Fictionalism." Which is apparently going to church and participating, without actually believing.
https://www.premierchristianradio.com/Shows/Saturday/Unbelievable/Episodes/Unbelievable-Religious-Fictionalism-Can-you-be-a-believer-who-doesn-t-believe-Kristi-Mair-and-Philip-Goff
Philip Goff attends church even though he doesn’t believe in the doctrines of Christianity. He calls himself a ‘religious fictionalist’, believing that the practise of faith is more important than believing in supernatural claims.Kristi Mair, author of the new book ‘More Truth: Searching for Certainty in an Uncertain World’ (IVP) and a speaker at this year’s Unbelievable? conference, engages with Philip’s approach to faith and whether you can really be a believer who doesn’t believe.
You may be interested in this podcast about "Religious Fictionalism." Which is apparently going to church and participating, without actually believing.
https://www.premierchristianradio.com/Shows/Saturday/Unbelievable/Episodes/Unbelievable-Religious-Fictionalism-Can-you-be-a-believer-who-doesn-t-believe-Kristi-Mair-and-Philip-Goff
[/FONT][/COLOR]
Yes, I think this has been quite common the last 20 or so years in Christianity. Judaism has been this way for some time with many openly atheist Jews.
But the benefit of living in Christian society doesn't require church attendance or participation. You can be completely separate from any church and still derive a benefit. You don't even have to believe in God. This benefit decreases if the faith is perverted by modernism/progressivism. Davsel's article points out that is happening and it leads to dead churches.
http://youtu.be/_g1snjLxAWw
"Democracy works most of the time because most of the people voluntarily choose to follow the law." "If you take away religion, you can't hire enough police."
"Democracy works most of the time because most of the people voluntarily choose to follow the law." "If you take away religion, you can't hire enough police."
That's why you replace God with The State and build a system so anyone can inform on anyone else and get them sent to the gulags.
I mean, it totally worked for the Soviet Union.
Aloha_Shooter
05-26-2019, 23:31
He shoots and he scores!!!
The fact this country exists as an entity free from British rule has a lot to do with assistance from France.
Said assistance predating the 1789 date postulated by the author as the beginning of the cultural slide resulting in today's "society". I would note that France's assistance was also unpopular with their populace and cost their monarchy dearly both financially and politically even though its purpose (for most of the French) was primarily to strike a blow at the British. Lafayette remained a unique character for his participation in both the American and French Revolutions but he was not a whole-hearted supporter for the French Revolution and to some extent was lucky to not get caught up in The Terror.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.