View Full Version : 2019 Adams county property value postcard
Just got mine. Assessed value is up 40k from what I paid at 259k
I recently purchased ~1.5 years ago I am trying to get rid of PMI as fast as I can paying %10 extra each month home improvements etc.
Is the high county assessment useful when the time for appraisal to refi comes up? I see people trying to fight assessed value constantly
Assessed value has little to do with appraisal value.
10% value is the most I would not fight with
Yes, because it will appraise for higher, faster. I did the exact same thing as you are doing, as well as getting an appraisal and a refi. I was able to get rid of the PMI in I think 18 months. I got mine in the mail today as well and my house has apparently doubled since I bought it. I bought just before the market really started climbing though.
SideShow Bob
05-02-2019, 20:04
Arapahoe. Co. Said mine went in value $52K since last time.
Arapahoe. Co. Said mine went in value $52K since last time.
Are you going to fight it bob? How long have you been in your house? And what’s the largest jump you have seen
I'm not planning on fighting mine, but I'm pretty sure they got the number of $308,000 because that's the price the neighbors two houses down just bought theirs for.
Got mine. Haven?t looked because I?m scared.
I live in an older house and they valued it over $330K a year or two ago.
Sucks paying property taxes on a $400K house when you know darn well that you live in a $200K home.
beast556
05-02-2019, 23:15
50,000$ up this year. Sucks already paying 2600$ in taxes. Guess we will pay more, the citys seems to think were all rolling in money. I hope the market corrects itself soon, not sure how much longer we can afford to live here.
Sucks paying property taxes on a $400K house when you know darn well that you live in a $200K home.
Pretty much this.
Assholes.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190503/60910311a270f8e1a61b64a9e86e2809.jpg
Great-Kazoo
05-03-2019, 07:31
50,000$ up this year. Sucks already paying 2600$ in taxes. Guess we will pay more, the citys seems to think were all rolling in money. I hope the market corrects itself soon, not sure how much longer we can afford to live here.
$2600 yikes.
They're trying to implement a "special road tax" down here. For "road upkeep and what ever else they will divert the $$ to. Proposed 10% per $100k property value. That puts the average home tax rate up another $500 per. Putting us just over the $1k mark, if it passes..
Naturally the majority of non-california residents are against it. The CA transplants, well ............
hollohas
05-03-2019, 07:56
JeffCo has been going up too.
Meanwhile, the JeffCo sheriff was just told he must cut $10M out of his budget. WTF.
Yeah, Adco thinks our house is somehow worth 235K, up from 191K a year ago. It's tough to dispute that when the unremodeled shitbox down the street with 1 less bedroom, 1 less bath, and about 30 percent less land just sold for 244k. All of these numbers are ridiculous...
colorider
05-03-2019, 10:14
Fought mine last year. Jeffco met me in the middle. Every bit helps.
I fought ours once after we moved in (IIRC) and won!
Done the math several times over the years and it would seem the comps support the DougCo's assessment. Can't believe what people are paying for houses here and wonder how they are getting by. Must be debt because wages aren't rising this fast.
We bought in 2008 in one of the dips after waiting 2+ years, or else we couldn't afford to live here.
Got an escrow analysis just a few weeks ago... Payment going up $~70 to increase escrow for taxes. And, of course, the wonderful "will you give us an interest free loan to cover a calculated shortage (that doesn't exist)" looking like a payment due. No thanks.
Fuuuuuuuuuuccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkk youuuuuuuuuuu adco. +$96775
We built this place 2 years ago
Ugh... now I'm not gonna check the mailbox...
I have my ag exemption paperwork on my desk. First year I am able to file it.
whitewalrus
05-03-2019, 12:04
Got an escrow analysis just a few weeks ago... Payment going up $~70 to increase escrow for taxes. And, of course, the wonderful "will you give us an interest free loan to cover a calculated shortage (that doesn't exist)" looking like a payment due. No thanks.
Always wondered who pays them the entire amount right away. But it must be a decent amount of people since they try every year my taxes go up
whitewalrus
05-03-2019, 12:06
$2600 yikes.
They're trying to implement a "special road tax" down here. For "road upkeep and what ever else they will divert the $$ to. Proposed 10% per $100k property value. That puts the average home tax rate up another $500 per. Putting us just over the $1k mark, if it passes..
Naturally the majority of non-california residents are against it. The CA transplants, well ............
Your posts are starting to sound like advertisements to move to AZ.....there some spots for sale around you? :)
cmailliard
05-03-2019, 12:43
Mine is up 18.5%. Increase of $75,000
This is my starter home trying to do 5 years and move to something bigger with a shop. I am not going to fight it. I Want the equity. I checked some comps around me and they sold for the 293-300 the county said mines worth.
kidicarus13
05-03-2019, 13:13
How are you guys successfully fighting it?
Always wondered who pays them the entire amount right away. But it must be a decent amount of people since they try every year my taxes go up
I have to!
I had the current "servicer" make a typical mistake in their favor and book my extra principal to escrow. I had to call, while the rep was researching, asked who would actually use that extra escrow line in the first place. She said a lot of people do.
I'm especially irked at the law that lets them calc a "cushion" in these accounts and show a shortage when there isn't an actual one. My opinion is, if the account is neg, I will fund. Otherwise I am "paying as agreed."
And a few servicers ago I had Ocwen who used this to try and create a default (they monetize defaults). They double paid my hazard insurance without actually sending a second payment to State Farm, but they made the second negative entry on the account. That immediately triggered an escrow analysis because it was neg (just in accounting entries not real dollars). They had my payment going up about $240 (IIRC). All done to construct a default which is typical of that company. Had to pay this new amount for several months until they corrected their error. Then had to request (in writing) another escrow analysis to correct.
How are you guys successfully fighting it?
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/148232-County-s-Property-Value-Assessment-How-to-win-a-dispute?highlight=Property+tax
This worked for me back in 2015:
I was able to file a protest online - link is on the NOV I received.
Of course, the Teller County website that has a tool for showing comperable qualified sales does not work, but I was able to use Zillow.
I found houses that have recently sold, and Zillow has a link on each property to the Assessor's site that provides the legal info needed to complete the online appeal.
They want to know what I believe it is worth, the reason why, and the legal info on three comparable sales. Fairly painless actually.
They still raised it a bit, but came down a lot. I did not have to do anything else.
whitewalrus
05-03-2019, 16:16
I have to!
I had the current "servicer" make a typical mistake in their favor and book my extra principal to escrow. I had to call, while the rep was researching, asked who would actually use that extra escrow line in the first place. She said a lot of people do.
I'm especially irked at the law that lets them calc a "cushion" in these accounts and show a shortage when there isn't an actual one. My opinion is, if the account is neg, I will fund. Otherwise I am "paying as agreed."
And a few servicers ago I had Ocwen who used this to try and create a default (they monetize defaults). They double paid my hazard insurance without actually sending a second payment to State Farm, but they made the second negative entry on the account. That immediately triggered an escrow analysis because it was neg (just in accounting entries not real dollars). They had my payment going up about $240 (IIRC). All done to construct a default which is typical of that company. Had to pay this new amount for several months until they corrected their error. Then had to request (in writing) another escrow analysis to correct.
That really sucks. I?m sure it?s not fun dealing with them.
hollohas
05-03-2019, 17:24
Got my JeffCo one today. +$41,145.
hollohas
05-03-2019, 18:02
The BS thing is they base the county "actual value" on the comps. But houses are selling for MORE then they appraise for. So it's not "actual" by any definition.
+$49,311
The guy farming my land needs to plant so I can file this paperwork
98k. Effing yippie. I want my damn dirt road paved now for that increase.
98k. Effing yippie. I want my damn dirt road paved now for that increase.
Fat chance. They'll just keep grading the ruts out RIGHT before the next storm.
Aloha_Shooter
05-03-2019, 19:30
Must be a statewide epidemic. El Paso tells me my house is worth $62k more this year than last so they want $350 more in property tax. That's a 23% increase.
Fat chance. They'll just keep grading the ruts out RIGHT before the next storm.
What is this grading you speak of?
What is this grading you speak of?
Rearranging the washboard and ruts
TEAMRICO
05-04-2019, 06:38
Then it really isn’t a racial slur then right? They just hate a country.
[QUOTE=Great-Kazoo;
Naturally the majority of non-california residents are against it. The CA transplants, well ............[/QUOTE]
I bet if they created a map showing the relocation of people fleeing Kali to corrupt the rest of country it would look like a pandemic killer virus was overtaking the country. Wait, that's what it is?..never mind!
Just got mine. +212% I think I'll fight it....
.455_Hunter
05-04-2019, 18:08
For you native types, or other long term residents, the only way forward is for you to sell your property to a blue state transplant and help complete your states fundamental transformation. A public service message from your local progressive activism committee.
I?ll sell my place to anybody from California for a half a million. That should be enough to relocate to some place nice.
Just got mine in the mail today.....assessment says +$79k.[bulls]
+56k. A 20% increase. A friend says his increased 300k.
Process of fighting.
Where which website.
How?
What kinda documents required?
Let's post em up.
Process of fighting.
Where which website.
How?
What kinda documents required?
Let's post em up.
Indeed.
Got El Paso County today. Property taxes rose $500+ w/ property value assessed 52k+ over previous. Want to fight it cus the houses around us that sold are NOT the same as ours. Ours is a 3/2.5 w/ unfinished basement, and the others around us that sold are all 4-5/2.5-3.5 w/ finished basements. Ours is the neighborhood's "entry" model.
At this rate, even if we stay in the Springs, we are looking to move. Just a few weeks ago we'd made the decision to stick it out here another year or two, but it seems we are being pushed elsewhere. I'd rather live in a friggin yurt than pay for all the bullshit we will never use, like the new Education Camp (school) they just built next to the neighborhood.
Just got ours . . . increased $70k.
Looks like all of us, I am in WELD county, went up 50K.
seems to be a common trend to this thread, all up, in a big way. Ours went up $96,000. I'm with Lurch, I'll be expecting some road improvement,...…..NOT.....
.455_Hunter
05-05-2019, 09:53
Any additional taxes payed will go towards equality and sustainability programs, NOT road maintenance or other infrastructure improvements (except multi-million dollar luxury hotels for vagrants and transients).
Douglas County, here. +$58883. *flails*
Now that we are all hopped up on our new found equity we can follow Tom Seleck’s advise and get the reverse mortgage when we get old
As of this moment, there is a John Deere pulling a disc through my field. 3rd year in process, so I can officially file my ag exemption paperwork.
This is what gentrification feels like.
As of this moment, there is a John Deere pulling a disc through my field. 3rd year in process, so I can officially file my ag exemption paperwork.
Shoulda got bees quicker turn around
I hear people use alpacas as well.
Shoulda got bees quicker turn around
Allergic as hell. My brother is a beekeeper, I wont even go in his backyard.
NFATrustGuy
05-05-2019, 14:27
My value here at the eastern edge of Larimer county went up by 26.1%. The really obnoxious thing about their purported value is that I purchased the house within the applicable valuation lookback period. Seems to me that this should be a pretty good indication of market value.
I fought them last year and every so year I can remember. I’ll do it again this year. And I’ll win! I’d love to be able to send them a bill for all my time they’ve wasted!
Ah disc plow it is
Allergic as hell. My brother is a beekeeper, I wont even go in his backyard.
BushMasterBoy
05-05-2019, 14:46
So basically it is inflation. Citizens leaving the big cities and flocking to Colorado. Until it becomes an unsustainable economy, then they will move somewhere else. Don't quote me on this, I could be wrong.
BladesNBarrels
05-05-2019, 14:46
Well, hush your mouth.
That agricultural exemption will be the next thing Polis and his Pals will attack.
[beatdeadhorse]
Anyone have a lead for this beekeeping ah exemption thing and the requirements or any other way for ag greatly appreciated. Only 2 acres so not sure if it’s even big enough but worth a shot to cut down on this craziness
hurley842002
05-05-2019, 15:40
Colorado doesn't even make the top 10 list of honey production in the country, I'm going to laugh when they shoot to number one over the next couple years.
BushMasterBoy
05-05-2019, 16:52
Some guidelines to an agricultural tax assessment.
https://www.douglas.co.us/documents/how-agricultural-property-is-valued.pdf
BladesNBarrels
05-06-2019, 08:42
Well, move to Delta.
Property Valuation went down 25%.
There are still depressed areas in Colorado.
How does one successfully fight this, in general?
Looks like you have to form a community group.
https://kdvr.com/2018/11/21/one-year-after-ink-coffee-gentrification-controversy/
How does one successfully fight this, in general?
I looked into this years back and after much time reading and considering I decided it wasn't worth the effort as it appears as though most people who did put forth the time were rewarded with a big heaping bowl of nothing.
If someone can provide first-hand experience that runs counter to that opinion please post details. I'd love to be wrong.
I looked into this years back and after much time reading and considering I decided it wasn't worth the effort as it appears as though most people who did put forth the time were rewarded with a big heaping bowl of nothing.
If someone can provide first-hand experience that runs counter to that opinion please post details. I'd love to be wrong.
Several people from this thread, and others in years past have stated how they've successfully fought this.
Received my Adams county tax card.
Increase of $48,000.
But the current assessment is within $1,500 of my house listing, so it appears to be pretty accurate.
I've seen them saying they did, but now how they did.
Perhaps I missed it.
I think you are correct in that no one has posted a step by step. Just links to resources here and there. Seems like people have good success in fighting it though.
Specific example:
My neighbor successfully got a reduction in ArapCo last year or the year before because he has never replaced his windows and all the comps they used had significant remod done.
Several people from this thread, and others in years past have stated how they've successfully fought this.
I decided over the weekend, I'll do the comp math on this one to make sure DougCo is in the ballpark.
Don't know if that will turn into a fight or not.
The problem with that process (at least for us in DougCo) is my appeal must be on the basis of like comps, in the study period, according to the county deeds. Those prices usually include any incentives or allowances paid in the deal, and of course, the agent commissions. None of which is value I would receive in selling but will be taxed on.
And the county can start off at whatever level they'd like to see what they can get away with.
I got my card and it's come out to ~15% increase this time! Wow. I hope folks are getting a cluebat education in how progressive taxation works. I think the avg. in DougCo is around $3,000. That's an extra $38 or so per month before the new 5A/B taxes kick in which are an extra $20-25 per month. I know Libs are made of money but a lot of folks don't have the extra $60 or so a month of "just because" money.
Libs are good at spending other people's money. It sucks when you're one of the "others". Being a productive member of society has a downside when redistribution of the fruits of your labor (aka taking a portion of your life you gave up to earn it) is defined as "free" by political standards.
Libs are good at spending other people's money. It sucks when you're one of the "others". Being a productive member of society has a downside when redistribution of the fruits of your labor (aka taking a portion of your life you gave up to earn it) is defined as "free" by political standards.
It feels like the scale of things is just perceived differently based on political beliefs.
There are obviously people in DougCo who think nothing of adding $60/month is additional taxes to their household liabilities. When I talk to people, I get an earful on how expensive things are and how fragile paycheck-to-paycheck living is becoming. I hear some sentiment from Libs on this too; "housing crisis" "affordable healthcare"
But they think very little of pushing on households with more taxes while not solving those problems.
If I saved $1 in healthcare costs for every $1 in taxes I would think differently about this.
Personally, I wish there was a way to opt out of paying for public schools. I'll never use them, ever. I'd rather die than send my children to them.
Fire department? Absolutely.
Law Enforcement? Yep.
Road stuff? Yeah, but I think they need a kick in the pants on efficiency.
All the other stuff? Pound sand.
But... its for the children.
Personally, I wish there was a way to opt out of paying for public schools. I'll never use them, ever. I'd rather die than send my children to them.
Fire department? Absolutely.
Law Enforcement? Yep.
Road stuff? Yeah, but I think they need a kick in the pants on efficiency.
All the other stuff? Pound sand.
Same. I also get to pay for the parks and rec stuff, even though I'm 10 miles out of city limits, and will never set foot on said parks.
I have zero problem paying into making society better. I don't want to live in a world without public spaces and minimally educated people. I have a problem with government wasting money on things that are not intended to be paid for with tax dollars, then them asking for more.
Same. I also get to pay for the parks and rec stuff, even though I'm 10 miles out of city limits, and will never set foot on said parks.
Add me to this list!
Aside from having to fund both public and private schools, it's forcing people who never had kids to pay for it all as well. And pay their entire lives based on the market+commission price of an asset they "own."
I wonder how much better education would be if all parents had to write a tuition check? It forces involvement and accountability on both sides.
I have zero problem paying into making society better. I don't want to live in a world without public spaces and minimally educated people. I have a problem with government wasting money on things that are not intended to be paid for with tax dollars, then them asking for more.
Some people want to live like ants and bees, and some want to live like wolves and lions. Makes life interesting
Add me to this list!
Aside from having to fund both public and private schools, it's forcing people who never had kids to pay for it all as well. And pay their entire lives based on the market+commission price of an asset they "own."
I wonder how much better education would be if all parents had to write a tuition check? It forces involvement and accountability on both sides.
Repeal the DOE and privatize education. Write a check for your own kids to the school of your choosing. Guarantee quality would increase. Charter and private schools have proven this time and again.
I can't say I want to live like ants and bees, but don't mind making a contribution to the surrounding infrastructure. I'd say more like a coyote. Social animal that can strike out on my own when needed or desired.
BladesNBarrels
05-06-2019, 16:13
The county assessor should have included the steps to protest in the notice or it is on their webpage.
In most counties, the first protest is written, then an appeal to a board - the board can be a special board or the actual county commissioners.
The last appeal is to take it to court.
My neighbor in Jeffco went all the way to going to court.
The night before the court hearing, the assessor called and agreed to the amount they calculated in their protest.
Months of work and anguish.
Aloha_Shooter
05-06-2019, 19:27
The argument for paying for public schools even if you'll never use them is that it's in society's (your) best interest for all kids to receive a minimum essential education. In the abstract, that's absolutely true, we do NOT need a nation of morons and we want all children who are going to be a part of our national society to have some basic level of education on how to operate in society. My problem is that "nation of morons" is exactly what we're getting from public education indoctrination "standards" these days. "Minimum essential" has changed from reading, writing, 'rithmetic (and civics) to sensitivity, multi-culturalism, and socialist definitions of "justice".
How much money are we throwing at the problem of not wanting morons...to still get morons that are attracted to socialist ideas? I have to wonder if getting the non-indoctrinated would be preferable?
The argument for paying for public schools even if you'll never use them is that it's in society's (your) best interest for all kids to receive a minimum essential education. In the abstract, that's absolutely true, we do NOT need a nation of morons and we want all children who are going to be a part of our national society to have some basic level of education on how to operate in society. My problem is that "nation of morons" is exactly what we're getting from public education indoctrination "standards" these days. "Minimum essential" has changed from reading, writing, 'rithmetic (and civics) to sensitivity, multi-culturalism, and socialist definitions of "justice".
I have been liquidating some tools from my stagnanted attempt at my own business on CL and FB market and the basic ability to read and write in both English and Spanish has proven to be rare Ben blanco means white van FYI
hollohas
05-07-2019, 06:52
Fire department? Absolutely.
Law Enforcement? Yep.
Road stuff? Yeah, but I think they need a kick in the pants on efficiency.
All the other stuff? Pound sand.
Exactly. Most people have no problem paying for services. But we are hit-up so many times it's absurd.
Income tax, sales tax, property tax, vehicle registration, permits, fees, fuel tax, etc etc etc.
Not to mention, we're told our taxes pay for essential services like the fire department. I shit you not, a coworker just this weekend got a $200 bill from Adams County Fire because they responded to the scene of an accident in which he was hit by someone out of control in a recent storm. If our taxes pay for that stuff, then why are they billing people when they use the service? Especially when they didn't request the service?
It BS. Some tea got thrown in a harbor for a lot less.
Increase in money supply is part of the tax for the poor and rich. It just increases the price of necessities.
We pay more and government can just prints out money.
It occurred to me that the increase in assessed values are an easy end run around TABOR. The assessors can postulate whatever values that they want without interference from the voters, where if they wanted to increase tax rates, they would have to chance a referendum. Not that that stops them from sticking their hands out every freakin elections cycle...
The argument for paying for public schools even if you'll never use them is that it's in society's (your) best interest for all kids to receive a minimum essential education. In the abstract, that's absolutely true, we do NOT need a nation of morons and we want all children who are going to be a part of our national society to have some basic level of education on how to operate in society. My problem is that "nation of morons" is exactly what we're getting from public education indoctrination "standards" these days. "Minimum essential" has changed from reading, writing, 'rithmetic (and civics) to sensitivity, multi-culturalism, and socialist definitions of "justice".
We're already on the cusp of Idiocracy, let's just get it over with.
ChickNorris
05-07-2019, 09:30
Taxes. Brought to you by Carl's Jr.
The argument for paying for public schools even if you'll never use them is that it's in society's (your) best interest for all kids to receive a minimum essential education. In the abstract, that's absolutely true, we do NOT need a nation of morons and we want all children who are going to be a part of our national society to have some basic level of education on how to operate in society. My problem is that "nation of morons" is exactly what we're getting from public education indoctrination "standards" these days. "Minimum essential" has changed from reading, writing, 'rithmetic (and civics) to sensitivity, multi-culturalism, and socialist definitions of "justice".
Education could easily be had without involving the government, had public schooling not become a state-sponsored "thing".
Everything you wrote could easily apply in its logic to socialized medicine as far as the principles involved. So would you support that? If not, why?
Repeal the DOE and privatize education. Write a check for your own kids to the school of your choosing. Guarantee quality would increase. Charter and private schools have proven this time and again.
And home schooling too. What homeschooling parents do with a fraction of the resources and no professional education, is amazing when you look at the test scores.
The pushback is "what about the parents that can't/won't pay for tuition?"
The argument for paying for public schools even if you'll never use them is that it's in society's (your) best interest for all kids to receive a minimum essential education. In the abstract, that's absolutely true, we do NOT need a nation of morons and we want all children who are going to be a part of our national society to have some basic level of education on how to operate in society. My problem is that "nation of morons" is exactly what we're getting from public education indoctrination "standards" these days. "Minimum essential" has changed from reading, writing, 'rithmetic (and civics) to sensitivity, multi-culturalism, and socialist definitions of "justice".
Yup, that's the argument.
Now look at US per pupil funding and the academic achievement gap with other developed nations. We're constantly at the bottom with more funding than the ones at the top. CO spends just under $10K/student. Look at what private schools do for less.
Agree, we are not getting functional, well-adjusted adults ready to join the workforce. We are getting Dem voters, collectivists, and cry babies. The ones that break this mold get away from the "education" (mil, higher ed, business, for example).
Non-adjusted, CO spends $130,000 per student K-12. That's kind of interesting to me.
Taxes. Brought to you by Carl's Jr.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8zNsUTWsOc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8zNsUTWsOc
whitewalrus
05-08-2019, 21:54
Just got my notice from my county's assessor...30% increase on my house. Think they could have at least mailed it with some Vaseline....
Just got my DougCo increase. 29%
I thought they only did these every two years, this seems to be annual now.
Just filed my appeal!
The numbers turned out to be a bit off based on TIME ADJUSTED* comps. My appeal is for 18% less than the assessed value. I couldn't find any comps that 100% represent my house because we have a nearly complete finished basement. I think the previous owners were honest about this where most folks aren't--everyone here has a fully finished basement!
I also have the smallest home model in this development which was also the least built so there are few precise examples. I was able to find two with my floorplan and one from another development less than a mile away with similar square footage.
*DougCo adjusts all comps to the end date of the study period (June 30, 2018) based on a formula that I didn't get into. This gives them the ability to inflate comps in the study period.
They also set the study period end date to be in the peak of summer when the market is always at its highest.
Aloha_Shooter
06-07-2019, 12:50
After appeal, the county moved to almost the position I asked for, reducing their valuation by $21K. I can live with that, wasn't disputing that property values have increased, just the amount of increase.
After appeal, the county moved to almost the position I asked for, reducing their valuation by $21K. I can live with that, wasn't disputing that property values have increased, just the amount of increase.
Congrats!!! [Beer]
That's like $150/year less right?
Same here on the reasoning. I will still be paying an increase if my appeal is accepted but one based on their own adjusted data. Haven't heard anything on mine.
After appeal, the county moved to almost the position I asked for, reducing their valuation by $21K. I can live with that, wasn't disputing that property values have increased, just the amount of increase.
Is it too late to appeal? If not, can you detail your process and what info you used?
Is it too late to appeal? If not, can you detail your process and what info you used?
The deadline to appeal is on the post card but I believe it was yesterday or Monday. The more I think about it the more I think it was Monday, June 3rd.
Ah. Yeah, I kept letting it slip my mind. I'll check the postcard when I get home. Oh well, gonna be moving to Tulsa soon anyway :D
Tulsa is an interesting town.
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