View Full Version : Solar Panels: Any advice?
glocktoberfest
05-13-2019, 08:45
I'm thinking about putting solar panels on my house. I see all kinds of ads saying zero down, etc, but i'm guessing some of them are misleading.
Anybody with solar panels on their house that can give me a head start on how to get going?
Thanks
This looks like a good place to start: https://www.ar-15.co/threads/107581-Getting-solar-at-the-house
O2
glocktoberfest
05-13-2019, 08:56
search is my friend....Thanks thanks O2
BladesNBarrels
05-13-2019, 10:26
Highlands Ranch - look into HOA procedures
Free estimates from a number of companies do provide an education
I am still researching after the Home and Garden Show
We built a house in the 70's when the first round of solar credits was offered - Heated hot water for the "hot water heater" and for the hot water heat supply, designed the windows and roof for passive solar, and provided a heat sink/storage area. Got the maximum solar credits.
Do you have a gas water heater and stove?
Do you have a gas water heater and stove?
Wouldn't you throw a gas furnace into that list as well?
And then wouldn't air conditioning/electric heating be on the other side of the table along with an electric range/oven?
Probably only half of the gas furnace since the fan blower motor is electric and significant (from what I understand).
T. B. Turner
05-13-2019, 12:13
A couple years ago I had a customer w/ s/p's and they said that the electricity from them is fed back into the grid and they get credited for it. It does not go into supplying their home directly. Also theirs were on the roof. which made me wonder how difficult it might be to replace the roof. There was about 4"-6" of space between the roof and panels. Maybe the the roof under the panels may not need replaced becuase it was not exposed to the wheather?
Probably only half of the gas furnace since the fan blower motor is electric and significant (from what I understand).
I think the blower impact changes once you throw in DC vs. AC.
If the entire roof is being replaced, the panels will be detached and reset to facilitate the replacement of the shingles under the panels. Some solar companies offer to do the detach and reset (usually not for free), but some you're on your own. There are companies popping up that just specialize in detaching and resetting of panels for roof replacements.
I think the blower impact changes once you throw in DC vs. AC.
Don't big solar set-ups come with an inverter to bring everything to A/C?
glocktoberfest
05-13-2019, 13:37
Yes. Gas. i guess winter heating would't be a huge benefit from solar.
Do you have a gas water heater and stove?
I'm talking about variable speed DC blower on the furnace. Startup doesn't take such a big electrical load like the old-fashioned AC blower motors.
There's enough of a power savings that all of our data center CRAC units were changed over to DC at my last employer.
Is that something that could be powered by at a single panel for more of a just in case type of thing?
Beats me. I doubt it would be worth the trouble.
The person that discovers the next big leap in electric energy storage density will make a mint until then in town it makes the most sense to sell the energy back to the grid at a less than wholesale price. I have 300 watts of off grid that I use to power 4 led strip shop lights and have areserve battery capacity to run 3 chest freezers for 1 week in the summer and the blower on my furnace for about the same.
A couple years ago I had a customer w/ s/p's and they said that the electricity from them is fed back into the grid and they get credited for it. It does not go into supplying their home directly. Also theirs were on the roof. which made me wonder how difficult it might be to replace the roof. There was about 4"-6" of space between the roof and panels. Maybe the the roof under the panels may not need replaced becuase it was not exposed to the wheather?
They get credited at 1/10th the value of the power they generate. Thank Colorado for selling the power grid to Xcel energy so they can shaft people everywhere.
The panels get removed, stored and replaced in case of roof replacement
Great-Kazoo
05-13-2019, 22:30
I'm thinking about putting solar panels on my house. I see all kinds of ads saying zero down, etc, but i'm guessing some of them are misleading.
Anybody with solar panels on their house that can give me a head start on how to get going?
Thanks
What's your monthly outlay for utilities? While in CO numerous solar companies tried selling us on solar. They said the savings (KEY WORDS) Over Time would be beneficial. Over time broke down to 15-20 years, after a monthly lease of $300+.
That was 6 months of electric bills. The numbers didn't and still have not been worth the investment. Down here solar is big, but not as much as one would imagine. The power company guy down the road said don't bother installing solar as the cost vs savings didn't balance out.
If you plan on staying where you live for 10+ years you might see some savings.
My electric bill is under $500 a year, which is what I tell the solar guys when they come to my door. My dryer, range/oven, and furnace are gas and I don't have A/C, so it just doesn't make sense for my house and they immediately understand that. Ironically, I'm very interested in solar, but just because I'm interested in it, and not necessarily for savings.
Now my buddy down in Houston with TWO A/C units (each plenty big enough for my house alone) runs an electric bill of about $450 a month during the summer. Different story depending on your monthly outlay, as referenced above.
https://i.imgur.com/jKPr3Av.jpg
glocktoberfest
05-14-2019, 06:05
I made an appointment with SunRun to come out and give me some stats. I don't have utility information since I'm moving to a different house, but right now in a 2br apt, i'm running about 100/month. I'm moving to a bigger house, so i anticipate greater electric costs -- especially in summer. Some friends with solar estimate i'll just 'swap' that $100 amount from paying for electric to paying for solar and after 10 years, i'll be all profit until the panels wear out. They have a 15 year warranty i believe. It sounds like it may be a good idea financially. I'll find out more after the sales pitch later this week.
UncleDave
05-14-2019, 06:51
No all panels have a 25 year warranty now. I think that was mandated by the feds for tax credits 10 years ago or so. One of my cousins owns a solar company.
Great-Kazoo
05-14-2019, 06:51
I made an appointment with SunRun to come out and give me some stats. I don't have utility information since I'm moving to a different house, but right now in a 2br apt, i'm running about 100/month. I'm moving to a bigger house, so i anticipate greater electric costs -- especially in summer. Some friends with solar estimate i'll just 'swap' that $100 amount from paying for electric to paying for solar and after 10 years, i'll be all profit until the panels wear out. They have a 15 year warranty i believe. It sounds like it may be a good idea financially. I'll find out more after the sales pitch later this week.
You going to lease or buy? Or not sure which, depending on numbers.
Do not, I repeat, do NOT lease solar panels. Always buy. Ideal is to pay cash with second place being a solar finance deal with a low interest rate. Do NOT give all of your savings to the bank. Never ever lease solar panels as all you're doing is making money for someone else.
Colorado has pros and cons for solar power. The primary con is that we are a large coal & natural gas production state which equals dirt cheap electricity. This means it takes longer to recoup your investment. With how efficient panels are today you're looking at about 8-10 years give or take should you pay cash and not do a battery backup. A battery backup will take longer to recoup and lots of muni's in CO don't have a variable rate based on what time you use the electricity so it really doesn't make sense to do that at this time. If where you live they charge you more for peak hours then you can play the game where you store up on your battery during the day, use off of the battery at night and sell the extra back while prioritizing paying for electrical off-peak if need be.
Solar will add about 80% to the value of your home if and only if you pay for it outright either via cash or a loan. Those who say you won't get any value are basing this out-dated info on solar leases which were a huge fad back in the day by scheister outfits trying to make a buck off of ignorant consumers. Owning solar panels outright does indeed increase the value of your home but not leasing. Did I mention to not lease solar panels?
Shop around but what you will most likely find is that Solar City is the lowest cost per kWh and best game in town. Colorado is one of the dozen or so states that Solar City is in so take advantage of that. People will bitch about Tesla for whatever reason but they're pretty much the best game in town wherever they are. Their panels are the most efficient and they've got the process down.
The feds have a 30% instant rebate for all solar and solar related installation labor through the end of 2019. That means you have to have the install done before the end of the calendar year and the .gov will lop 30% off of your bill right up front. No waiting for tax seasons or needing a massive tax liability to take advantage. It's best to get while the getting is good for sure although downsizing how many panels you do isn't a bad idea as they're gaining in efficiency in leaps and bounds making adding later a much more cost effective approach. The delta is the 30% savings now which won't take long to surpass with later additions based on how rapidly the segment is improving.
Lots of sharks in the water right now so do your research. It's a large purchase and it amazes me how many people will research what pair of slippers they want more than something like solar.
Reminder... never ever EVER lease. Ever. Just don't do it.
ETA: it is indeed a tax credit so ignore that portion of misinformation above. I found some info at one point saying that you paid the 70% portion and the installer applied to get credited back that 30% directly but it looks like you'll need to recover it in your taxes over the following couple of years.
BladesNBarrels
05-14-2019, 16:37
Do not, I repeat, do NOT lease solar panels. Always buy. Never ever lease solar panels as all you're doing is making money for someone else.
Reminder... never ever EVER lease. Ever. Just don't do it.
Now, what's the advantage of leasing solar panels, again?
[hahhah-no]
Now, what's the advantage of leasing solar panels, again?
[hahhah-no]
I wasn't sure if I made that clear enough or not. Solar + leasing = bad
Is there any product where leasing isn't bad? I've heard the argument for leasing vehicles, but I've also heard it shot down.
glocktoberfest
05-14-2019, 19:59
I leased a car...once.....never again. I feel the same about solar panels. I'll buy, or i'll not buy if it doesnt make sense. Those rebates are what's got me interested. I know they're going away. if i can essentially swap a electric bill for a panel payment, i'll do it. If not, then i'll pass.
Do not, I repeat, do NOT lease solar panels. Always buy.
Lots of sharks in the water right now so do your research. It's a large purchase and it amazes me how many people will research what pair of slippers they want more than something like solar.
Reminder... never ever EVER lease. Ever. Just don't do it.
Is the rebate really only for the labor and not the total price? If so that seems more like the gov trying to prop up the industry rather than the idea.
Great-Kazoo
05-14-2019, 20:57
Is the rebate really only for the labor and not the total price? If so that seems more like the gov trying to prop up the industry rather than the idea.
Like Amtrack?
If you're interested in misguided gov intervention, research Solyndra.
Sent from somewhere...
For the better seasoned out there.... Any suggestions on companies to finance a system for a 1600 sq ft house with unfinished basement? I do not want a roof mount system, as I have plenty of room to fit a ground based system.
Is there any product where leasing isn't bad? I've heard the argument for leasing vehicles, but I've also heard it shot down.
If you look hard enough you'll find arguments for just about everything. Doesn't make it right.
I leased a car...once.....never again. I feel the same about solar panels. I'll buy, or i'll not buy if it doesnt make sense. Those rebates are what's got me interested. I know they're going away. if i can essentially swap a electric bill for a panel payment, i'll do it. If not, then i'll pass.
Same. Leasing is a terrible idea for countless reasons even on cars.
The rebates aren't going away entirely after 2019, just decreasing. Starting in 2020 it will decrease from 30% to 26% and then 22% for 2021 and finally 10% for 2022. You really want to do it in the next few years if you plan to to get the most bang for your buck IMO. Since we're mid-year you might find it difficult to get installed and turned on before 2020 as it's a rather lengthy process with all the permitting and what not that needs to happen. Just because you decide in June you want it doesn't guarantee you'll make the cut before the end of 2019. Just something to keep in mind. I wouldn't rush into any decisions either way.
Is the rebate really only for the labor and not the total price? If so that seems more like the gov trying to prop up the industry rather than the idea.
No, hardware and installation. I thought I stated that earlier but maybe I didn't make it clear. If your total solar bill is $30k you can expect to pay $20k.
For the better seasoned out there.... Any suggestions on companies to finance a system for a 1600 sq ft house with unfinished basement? I do not want a roof mount system, as I have plenty of room to fit a ground based system.
The people that I know that have financed did so through Tesla and have had good things to say about it. Not sure what other options exist but I know they're out there.
Do not, I repeat, do NOT lease solar panels. Always buy. Ideal is to pay cash with second place being a solar finance deal with a low interest rate. Do NOT give all of your savings to the bank. Never ever lease solar panels as all you're doing is making money for someone else.
Colorado has pros and cons for solar power. The primary con is that we are a large coal & natural gas production state which equals dirt cheap electricity. This means it takes longer to recoup your investment. With how efficient panels are today you're looking at about 8-10 years give or take should you pay cash and not do a battery backup. A battery backup will take longer to recoup and lots of muni's in CO don't have a variable rate based on what time you use the electricity so it really doesn't make sense to do that at this time. If where you live they charge you more for peak hours then you can play the game where you store up on your battery during the day, use off of the battery at night and sell the extra back while prioritizing paying for electrical off-peak if need be.
Solar will add about 80% to the value of your home if and only if you pay for it outright either via cash or a loan. Those who say you won't get any value are basing this out-dated info on solar leases which were a huge fad back in the day by scheister outfits trying to make a buck off of ignorant consumers. Owning solar panels outright does indeed increase the value of your home but not leasing. Did I mention to not lease solar panels?
Shop around but what you will most likely find is that Solar City is the lowest cost per kWh and best game in town. Colorado is one of the dozen or so states that Solar City is in so take advantage of that. People will bitch about Tesla for whatever reason but they're pretty much the best game in town wherever they are. Their panels are the most efficient and they've got the process down.
The feds have a 30% instant rebate for all solar and solar related installation labor through the end of 2019. That means you have to have the install done before the end of the calendar year and the .gov will lop 30% off of your bill right up front. No waiting for tax seasons or needing a massive tax liability to take advantage. It's best to get while the getting is good for sure although downsizing how many panels you do isn't a bad idea as they're gaining in efficiency in leaps and bounds making adding later a much more cost effective approach. The delta is the 30% savings now which won't take long to surpass with later additions based on how rapidly the segment is improving.
Lots of sharks in the water right now so do your research. It's a large purchase and it amazes me how many people will research what pair of slippers they want more than something like solar.
Reminder... never ever EVER lease. Ever. Just don't do it.
ETA: it is indeed a tax credit so ignore that portion of misinformation above. I found some info at one point saying that you paid the 70% portion and the installer applied to get credited back that 30% directly but it looks like you'll need to recover it in your taxes over the following couple of years.
By the way, I was wrong about it being an instant credit in this post which I amended to hopefully avoid further confusion. I found a bit of info a while back when I was giving it a cursory investigation that lead me to believe that you paid just the 70% portion of the bill and the installer got reimbursed for the 30% directly through the government. This appears to be wrong so your tax liability needs to be able to absorb whatever amount you're due for your particular install. If you did a massive system with battery backup and bought a couple of EVs all in the same year you better have some massive tax liability to recoup those credits all at once.
Does any company make triangular panels for hip roofs? Realize that a square is most efficient with solar cells and racking systems but seems like some triangle pieces on a few sides of a hip roof could add up to another 2-5 panels on the roof.
One time* I was explaining to an old lady that she had a hip roof and she asked me not to use jive speak with her.
*That never happened.
Great-Kazoo
05-15-2019, 14:28
So with advice to not lease, but just buy them, which i agree with. if you can't afford it don't go in to hock over it.
Exactly where does one come up with say $15K without borrowing money from somewhere? My basic math says it would take me (again based on low ball numbers) 12 years before i'd break even on a solar investment. Crunching numbers of average electric bill, there's no way solar, for us, will ever be a positive investment.
Besides looking dumb for your neighbors, how realistic would it be to pay for the racking and electrical to be installed, then add panels as one can afford? Adding panels is just bolt them into the rack and plug in the panel. It's as easy plug and play as it gets. If you set up the racking and electrical to fit the total planned panels, having less shouldn't be a problem. I assume that the city wouldn't let this fly as they'd want to inspect the final product. Never mind.
Until residential solar customers are completely disconnected from the grid, the grid must be maintained. Just as governments are looking to charge EV owners additional fees due to lost gas tax revenues, I expect something similar for residential solar.
Does any company make triangular panels for hip roofs? Realize that a square is most efficient with solar cells and racking systems but seems like some triangle pieces on a few sides of a hip roof could add up to another 2-5 panels on the roof.
One time* I was explaining to an old lady that she had a hip roof and she asked me not to use jive speak with her.
*That never happened.
Nope, they make rectangular and if you have obstructions on your roof or something casts a consistent shadow on a certain spot they just don't put panels there. Many refer to this as the "missing tooth" look which some dislike if it's on the side people see from the street. Something to consider if this bothers you.
So with advice to not lease, but just buy them, which i agree with. if you can't afford it don't go in to hock over it.
Exactly where does one come up with say $15K without borrowing money from somewhere? My basic math says it would take me (again based on low ball numbers) 12 years before i'd break even on a solar investment. Crunching numbers of average electric bill, there's no way solar, for us, will ever be a positive investment.
I would say it's not a wise investment for most unless you aren't doing it from a money saving standpoint but rather a "world saving" standpoint. Many people actually have an option to pay for electricity from a "renewable" source at a premium and choose it. Not really my thing but, I digress.
Too many people don't factor in the cost of the loan when determining when the "break even" date would be. These same people often don't realize what they're actually paying to a lending institution as a total figure which can be quite alarming if they actually knew. This is why often times it's buried in pages of docs that many don't bother reading.
If you know ALL of the numbers and still feel as though solar is right for you even including financing figures... go for it. I didn't say to never ever finance just that if you are in a financial situation to pay cash it makes the most sense. Duh. Right? If you need to finance just get the best deal and then make sure you understand how that will skew your "break even" date when you're making your decision. Don't rush into any foolish decisions to get your solar in by the end of 2019 as it will likely cost you thousands to save hundreds.
Also, never ever lease. Ever. Just in case that was confusing when I was discussing the three options and my opinion of them.
Besides looking dumb for your neighbors, how realistic would it be to pay for the racking and electrical to be installed, then add panels as one can afford? Adding panels is just bolt them into the rack and plug in the panel. It's as easy plug and play as it gets. If you set up the racking and electrical to fit the total planned panels, having less shouldn't be a problem. I assume that the city wouldn't let this fly as they'd want to inspect the final product. Never mind.
I guess it depends on your idea of "looking dumb" but these days they don't look too bad at all and that's if you can even spot them. I just found out recently that two of our neighbors have solar and I've still only seen one of them myself even though we walk our neighborhood nightly and I actively look for the second. The panels they use these days are low profile and look much better than panels of yore. You can even get them w/o the white grids so they stand out even less. These come at a premium and aren't as efficient as the lined ones so most don't opt for them but they're an option. They also have roof tiles that are slowly becoming available to consumers that look amazing but they're nowhere as efficient as the panels and are quite expensive. It's cool though to think that in our lifetime we'll have a tile option that looks as good or better than a regular shingle roof and produces electricity for free from an otherwise dead area. There is a lot of permitting and BS that goes in to do this properly. As I think about what you typed I think you meant more about the grid installed w/o panels in some portions. I'm too lazy to go back and edit so... deal with what I typed! lol
Whoever installs will install whatever panels you want. I don't think they will install a bunch of brackets and wiring in preparation for future expansion but I also don't think you'll be saving much by doing this anyway. Think about all the years that extra you spent to install the ability to expand could have been better invested elsewhere offsetting whatever extra "trip charge" you get down the road. There's also a strong probability that whatever you buy down the road will require different wiring and components to where what you installed today might not even be compatible with new systems.
Until residential solar customers are completely disconnected from the grid, the grid must be maintained. Just as governments are looking to charge EV owners additional fees due to lost gas tax revenues, I expect something similar for residential solar.
I'm sure you're right. I don't know how that will look but the guv always gets it's cut... just a question of how large each slice is to make up the pie. Find a way to eliminate a slice and they will just make the other slices larger.
We're just in the early phases of how all of this will lay out but it's promising to know that someday, eventually.... electricity will be free. That's dream and end-game anyway for those who are gung ho into this sort of thing. This opens up lots of possibilities.
We're just in the early phases of how all of this will lay out but it's promising to know that someday, eventually.... electricity will be free. That's dream and end-game anyway for those who are gung ho into this sort of thing. This opens up lots of possibilities.
Electricity will never be free. If it's a commodity, someone will figure out a way to make you pay for it, especially governments.
electricity will never be free because someone still has to pay for upkeep of the transmission lines and maintenance on all the wind turbines, and solar arrays, etc.
Until residential solar customers are completely disconnected from the grid, the grid must be maintained. Just as governments are looking to charge EV owners additional fees due to lost gas tax revenues, I expect something similar for residential solar.
Agreed. I would only do solar for an off the grid situation. Even for an excess back to the grid (at wholesale) system my ROI would be 10-12 years at best. Plus no power when the grid is down ... pass.
Agreed. I would only do solar for an off the grid situation. Even for an excess back to the grid (at wholesale) system my ROI would be 10-12 years at best. Plus no power when the grid is down ... pass.
You do have power when the grid goes down it's just not uninterrupted. Most people experience a flicker but it doesn't act as a whole-house battery back-up the way I'd like. So any PCs, servers or anything sensitive to power outages still needs to be on a UPS unfortunately.
OtterbatHellcat
05-15-2019, 20:43
I'm still interested in doing something with it, even some low scale stuff has to be worth it in the long run.
I'm still interested in doing something with it, even some low scale stuff has to be worth it in the long run.
Not always. It depends on what "long run" actually means. Like my 83 year old father mentioned to me, "When they're trying to sell me on why 45-year shingles are worth the extra cost over 30-year shingles, I'll never realize that value."
Photovoltaic cells degrade over time, so you have to also factor that in.
News Release: New Solar PV Tool Accurately Calculates Degradation Rates, Saving Money and Guiding Business Decisions (https://www.nrel.gov/news/press/2018/new-solar-pv-tool-accurately-calculates-degradation-rates-saving-money-and-guiding-business-decisions.html)
Great-Kazoo
05-15-2019, 21:19
Not always. It depends on what "long run" actually means. Like my 83 year old father mentioned to me, "When they're trying to sell me on why 45-year shingles are worth the extra cost over 30-year shingles, I'll never realize that value."
I used a similar line on a salesman. You know for a few dollars more. You can get the roof that carries a 30 yr warranty.
30 years, really? Yes sir. I'll take the standard roof. 30 years, Hell i doubt i remember there's a warranty at my age, in another 10 years. Guy didn't know what to say.
Not always. It depends on what "long run" actually means. Like my 83 year old father mentioned to me, "When they're trying to sell me on why 45-year shingles are worth the extra cost over 30-year shingles, I'll never realize that value."
Photovoltaic cells degrade over time, so you have to also factor that in.
News Release: New Solar PV Tool Accurately Calculates Degradation Rates, Saving Money and Guiding Business Decisions (https://www.nrel.gov/news/press/2018/new-solar-pv-tool-accurately-calculates-degradation-rates-saving-money-and-guiding-business-decisions.html)
The panels these days produce close to their rate for much longer. In fact, the Tesla ones are guaranteed to produce 90% at 10 years & 80% of their rated energy 25 years from the day they're installed or they'll replace them under warranty. That's pretty damn good.
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