*CONFIRMED SEE PAGE 7* Littleton PD Requesting online-uploads of video for firearms transactions

[battle_sight_zero]

Have not been on in while. However something I saw at a local gunshop has my hackles up. Apparently local law enforcement under the guise of Colorado Government is now requiring gunstores that have consignments to place q government provided camera that records audio and video of the person placing the firearm on consignment. I have been told pawn shops do this of pawned items but the law was changed to include gunstores. My issue is that Colorado Government is now providing a camera with and audio Jack. This data per the FFL is then sent to a 3rd party server contracted with the State of Colorado. Tried to post this on the recall Polis site but I guess this government overstep is ok with them.

[electronman1729]

Is this a Boulder thing?

[battle_sight_zero]

Yes you work at FFL. I guess you have not been visited yet. Do you do cosignments? 77990

[battle_sight_zero]

Picture attached from local FFL. FFL well known to many will be closing because of this. They wish to stay off radar until store closing.

[00tec]

Which CRS is requiring this?

[.455_Hunter]

I guess I will ask Ross tomorrow at Gunsport- I have been frequenting them since I was a sophomore at Boulder High in the early 90's. My search of Boulder City ordnances yielded nothing about video/audio of firearm consignments.

[Irving]

Is this similar to the state provided cameras over at Blue Core? Do they still have those? I guess they told me that they were Lakewood PD cameras if I remember correctly. That was about 10 years ago now though.

[Bailey Guns]

If this is the case, I sure can't find anything on it. I doubt a local law/ordinance would fly with Colorado's preemption law. Color me skeptical.

[battle_sight_zero]

This happened last Thursday. I am not in a Boulder but in the south metro area. More information will come out soon as the FFL makes it announcement of closing. Cant blame them since consignments are their bread and butter. They dont feel this is right. You are correct Bailey however someone's up to no good. Picture is the explanation they were given. Nothing in the code covers cameras etc.77992

[00tec]

If the code doesn't support them requiring cameras, they cannot require cameras.

[crays]

from law.justia.com in its entirety:


2016 Colorado Revised Statutes
Title 18 - Criminal Code
Article 13 - Miscellaneous Offenses
? 18-13-114. Sale of secondhand property - record - inspection - crime - definitions
Universal Citation: CO Rev Stat ? 18-13-114 (2016)
(1) Every secondhand dealer, as defined in subsection (5) of this section, shall make a record, as provided in subsection (2) of this section, of each sale or trade of secondhand property made by him, his agent, or any person acting on his behalf, which sale or trade equals or exceeds thirty dollars in value for each item. Such record shall be made available to any peace officer for inspection at any reasonable time. The secondhand dealer shall mail or deliver the record of the sale or trade to the local law enforcement agency within three days of the date of such sale or trade. The secondhand dealer shall keep a copy of the record of the sale or trade for at least one year after the date of the sale or trade.

(2) The record required by this section shall be made in writing on forms designed by the Colorado bureau of investigation or a reasonable facsimile thereof as provided in subsection (3) or (4) of this section and shall consist of the following:

(a) The name, address, and date of birth of the seller or trader;

(b) The date, time, and place of the sale or trade;

(c) An accurate and detailed account and description of the item sold or traded, including, but not limited to, any trademark, identification number, serial number, model number, brand name, or other identifying mark on such item;

(d) The identification number from any of the following forms of identification of the seller or trader:

(I) A valid Colorado driver's license;

(II) An identification card issued in accordance with section 42-2-302, C.R.S.;

(III) A valid driver's license, containing a picture, issued by another state;

(IV) A military identification card;

(V) A valid passport;

(VI) An alien registration card; or

(VII) A nonpicture identification document issued by a state or federal government entity;

(e) The signature of the seller or trader;

(f) A declaration by the secondhand dealer that he is the rightful owner of the secondhand property and a description of how he obtained the property, including the serial number of such property if available or a copy of the bill of sale of such property; and

(g) A declaration by the secondhand dealer that he has knowledge of the requirement that he mail or deliver a record of the sale or trade to the local law enforcement agency, as required by subsection (1) of this section.

(3) Any city, municipality, city and county, or county which regulates secondhand dealers and assesses a fee as provided in section 18-13-118 shall print and provide the forms for reporting required pursuant to subsection (2) of this section.

(4) In cities, municipalities, city and counties, and counties which do not license secondhand dealers and assess a fee as provided in section 18-13-118, the secondhand dealer shall report all the information required pursuant to subsection (2) of this section in a form acceptable to the local law enforcement agency.

(5) As used in this section and sections 18-13-115 to 18-13-118, unless the context otherwise requires:

(a) "Local law enforcement agency" means any marshal's office, police department, or sheriff's office with jurisdiction in the locality in which the sale or trade occurs.

(b) "Peace officer" means any undersheriff, deputy sheriff other than one appointed with authority only to receive and serve summons and civil process, police officer, Colorado state patrol officer, town marshal, or investigator for a district attorney or the attorney general who is engaged in full-time employment by the state, a city, city and county, town, judicial district, or county within this state.

(c) "Secondhand dealer" means any person whose principal business is that of engaging in selling or trading secondhand property. The term also includes the following: Any person whose principal business is not that of engaging in selling or trading secondhand property but who sells or trades secondhand property through means commonly known as flea markets or any similar facilities in which secondhand property is offered for sale or trade; any person who sells or trades secondhand property from a nonpermanent location; and any person who purchases for resale any secondhand property which carries a manufacturer or serial number. The term does not include:

(I) A person selling or trading secondhand property so long as such property was not originally purchased for resale and so long as such person does not sell or trade secondhand property more than five weekend periods in any one calendar year, as verified by a declaration to be prepared by the seller. For the purposes of this subparagraph (I), "weekend period" means Friday through the immediately following Monday.

(II) A person who is a retailer as defined in section 39-26-102 (8), C.R.S., or a wholesaler as defined in section 39-26-102 (18), C.R.S., and who is selling or trading secondhand property in a location which is a permanent storefront location, unless such property carries a manufacturer or serial number;

(III) A person or organization selling or trading secondhand property at an exhibition or show which is intended to display and advertise a particular commodity or class of products, including, but not limited to, antique exhibitions, firearm exhibitions, home and garden shows, and recreational vehicle shows;

(IV) A person or organization which is charitable, nonprofit, recreational, fraternal, or political in nature or which is exempt from taxation pursuant to section 501 (c) (3) of the federal "Internal Revenue Code of 1986", as amended;

(V) A person selling or trading firewood, Christmas trees, plants, food products, agricultural products, fungible goods, pets, livestock, or arts and crafts, excluding jewelry and items crafted of gold or silver, if sold or traded by the artist or craftsman, his immediate family, or regular employees;

(VI) A person who sells new goods exclusively, is in the business of selling such goods, is in all respects a retailer of such goods, and holds a retail license and a sales tax license in the city, county, or city and county in which the sale occurs;

(VII) An antique dealer who sells antiques, has a retail license and sales tax license in the city, county, or city and county in which the sale occurs, and sells such antiques from a permanent storefront location.

(d) "Secondhand property" means the following items of tangible personal property sold or traded by a secondhand dealer:

(I) Cameras, camera lenses, slide or movie projectors, projector screens, flashguns, enlargers, tripods, binoculars, telescopes, and microscopes;

(II) Televisions, phonographs, tape recorders, video recorders, radios, tuners, speakers, turntables, amplifiers, record changers, citizens' band broadcasting units and receivers, and video games;

(III) Skis, ski poles, ski boots, ski bindings, golf clubs, guns, jewelry, coins, luggage, boots, and furs;

(IV) Typewriters, adding machines, calculators, computers, portable air conditioners, cash registers, copying machines, dictating machines, automatic telephone answering machines, and sewing machines;

(V) Bicycles, bicycle frames, bicycle derailleur assemblies, bicycle hand brake assemblies, and other bicycle components; and

(VI) Any item of tangible personal property which is marked with a serial or identification number and the selling price of which is thirty dollars or more, except motor vehicles, off-highway vehicles as defined in section 42-1-102 (63), C.R.S., snowmobiles, ranges, stoves, dishwashers, refrigerators, garbage disposals, boats, airplanes, clothes washers, clothes driers, freezers, mobile homes, and nonprecious scrap metal.

(6) (a) Any secondhand dealer who violates any of the provisions of subsection (1) or (2) of this section commits a class 1 misdemeanor. Upon a second or subsequent conviction for a violation of subsection (1) or (2) of this section within three years of the date of a prior conviction, a secondhand dealer commits a class 5 felony.

(b) Any buyer or person who trades with a secondhand dealer or any secondhand dealer who knowingly gives false information with respect to the information required by subsection (2) of this section commits a class 1 misdemeanor.

(7) (a) Local law enforcement agencies who print and provide forms as designed by the Colorado bureau of investigation for recording the information required by subsection (2) of this section may charge a reasonable fee for each form to defray the cost of providing such form.

(b) Each local law enforcement agency may establish rules or policies requiring that secondhand dealers provide it with copies of such records. The local law enforcement agency may set forth how often such copies shall be provided to it. Each local law enforcement agency shall forward copies of records received by it to the law enforcement agency having jurisdiction in the area in which the buyer or trader resides.

(8) In the case of flea markets and similar facilities in which secondhand property is offered for sale or trade, the operator thereof shall inform each secondhand dealer of the requirements of this section and shall provide the forms for recording the information required by subsection (2) of this section. Any person who violates the provisions of this subsection (8) commits a class 3 misdemeanor.

(9) In the case of flea markets and similar facilities in which secondhand property is offered for sale or trade, the operator thereof shall record the name and address of each secondhand dealer operating at the flea market or similar facility and the identification number of such dealer as obtained from any of the forms of identification enumerated in paragraph (d) of subsection (2) of this section. Such record shall be mailed or delivered by the operator to the local law enforcement agency within three days of the date the secondhand dealer offered secondhand property for sale or trade at the flea market or similar facility. A copy of such record shall be retained by the operator for at least one year after the date the secondhand dealer offered secondhand property for sale or trade at the flea market or similar facility.

Disclaimer: These codes may not be the most recent version. Colorado may have more current or accurate information. We make no warranties or guarantees about the accuracy, completeness, or adequacy of the information contained on this site or the information linked to on the state site. Please check official sources.

[battle_sight_zero]

Thank you Crays. My post is not to stir crap. The FFL who gave me this info and allowed me to take the picture is dear to me. I hope I can convince them to come forward. The camera and audio feed is shocking to me especially being told it was delivered by police. After posting this on a closed political group on social media and being called names by one of the commenters I realize that it will be best that the impacted business present it. Many of us on this forum use that FFL for transfers and thus it will come out soon especially as the doors are about to close. I have no reason to doubt what I was told or shown. All it did was make me very concerned and I tried to alert others. I am sure more will come out soon. I thank everyone in here for not blasting me as I was elsewhere.

[crays]

You're welcome. I was just posting the entire statute so folks could read through it if they wanted.

Seem to me that by virtue of being an FFL lyou would already meet all the obligations of this statute as written. Feels like the local constabulary is over reaching a little bit here with the a/v recording, to me. Perhaps they are hoping to regulate the number of FFL's in their domain by placing the undue financial and technical burden on the FFL to record, and store every transaction.

"Here's the camera for free, but you are on your own to hook it up, maintain it, catalog and store the data, and retrieve and deliver it at such time we deem it necessary to view it."

[Irving]

This would be like a Police officer showing up with a state provided weed whacker to control my weeds.

If the state is really concerned about guns getting into the wrong hands from ffls, perhaps they should look into providing crash barriers and gun safes instead.

[mb504]

Wouldn't this be in violation of this bit of law?

https://law.justia.com/codes/colorado/2016/title-29/miscellaneous/article-11.7/section-29-11.7-102/


2016 Colorado Revised Statutes
Title 29 - Government - Local
Miscellaneous
Article 11.7 - Regulation of Firearms
? 29-11.7-102. Firearms database - prohibited
Universal Citation: CO Rev Stat ? 29-11.7-102 (2016)

(1) A local government, including a law enforcement agency, shall not maintain a list or other form of record or database of:

(a) Persons who purchase or exchange firearms or who leave firearms for repair or sale on consignment;

(b) Persons who transfer firearms, unless the persons are federally licensed firearms dealers;

(c) The descriptions, including serial numbers, of firearms purchased, transferred, exchanged, or left for repair or sale on consignment.

[crays]

Wouldn't this be in violation of this bit of law?

https://law.justia.com/codes/colorado/2016/title-29/miscellaneous/article-11.7/section-29-11.7-102/

Nice find. But it is Boulder, so they will do what they please and scream HOME RULE!!! (or whatever the preemptive thing is), since the precedent was set with their "assault weapons" ban. Or has that been struck down?

[.455_Hunter]

Nice find. But it is Boulder, so they will do what they please and scream HOME RULE!!! (or whatever the preemptive thing is), since the precedent was set with their "assault weapons" ban. Or has that been struck down?

The OP's quote-


I am not in a Boulder but in the south metro area.

[crays]

Guess I got a little off track reading the thread, with several references to Boulder. My bad. I guess the FFL is not who I was thinking it might be, then.

Cheers

[battle_sight_zero]

Thanks I am in Littleton. Thanks everyone but not being aholes. This really happend and seems to be an overreach. As stated the FFL can explain in person to customers.

[BladesNBarrels]

Don't shoot the messenger.

This appears to be a serious problem that he is making us aware of.
It would be nice to know if any other FFL's have been advised and given cameras. And, if so, who is paying for them?

[Aloha_Shooter]

Wouldn't this be in violation of this bit of law?

https://law.justia.com/codes/colorado/2016/title-29/miscellaneous/article-11.7/section-29-11.7-102/

Ah, but the Demo lawyers will say the local government isn't maintaining the list or record, they're just requiring the FFL to do so. What really laughable is that these 'tards are the same people who defend Hillary Clinton's evasion of government email regulations and laws requiring records of official communications and acts.

[SpamOnRye]

I saw a post on Armslist about Littleton police requiring video and fingerprints from pawn shops and gun stores. The details are fuzzy but I?ll see if I can find it again.

[SpamOnRye]

I tried to recreate my search and could not find it. It was of an official looking 3 page document stating what was implied in the OP

[Doc45]

Anything more on this? Yesterday, the 18th, I showed this to 3 shops and none of them knew anything about it.

[OneGuy67]

It sounds like a local municipal issue, not a state required thing. The CRS posted deals directly with pawns and how they are handled.

[FoxtArt]

City ordinances can be searched online, almost always. Just sayin'. Not saying it isn't true, but peoples explanations for things are not always fact based. There was a FFL that closed up in Grand Junction several years ago, he made it out to be a big conspiracy. In truth, he was disorganized as hell and failed to keep records. But you'll rarely get a honest, no bull humble explanation from a dealer shutting down. So, like a game of telephone to 100% believe this you have to trust the messenger (I don't doubt that), the dealer who wants to justify a closure (who knows) a LEO officer if that's where it came from, the LEO's supervisor if that's where it came from, the LEO attorney, blah blah blah blah.

If it is all true in some semblance, it's probably a pretty safe call to tell the local LEO to fuck off and you won't install it. What are they going to do as long as you comply with state law.

[asmo]

Picture attached from local FFL. FFL well known to many will be closing because of this. They wish to stay off radar until store closing.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence..

[Doc45]

Pawnshops will take your print, have for decades. In the “old days” in Denver there was a form you filled out that went to the pd, in addition to 4473.

Still waiting to hear if there is anything more to this.

[Squeeze]

I am working part-time at Iron Horse Armory in Parker. We have not had this issue - to my knowledge. As it was previously mentioned, it sounds as if it is a municipal thing. I don't know how many FFL's there are in Littleton, but I sincerely hope it's not the one I'm thinking of.

[battle_sight_zero]

The Rapidfire and the Shooting Shop are the ones closing. Rapidfire is a great transfer store. It's too bad. They will be missed. Appears to be a municipal thing.

[kidicarus13]

The Rapidfire and the Shooting Shop are the ones closing. Rapidfire is a great transfer store. It's too bad. They will be missed.

RFB. I used to go there often when I lived closer. That sucks. They are closing due to the camera ordinance?

[Martinjmpr]

Pawnshops will take your print, have for decades. In the ?old days? in Denver there was a form you filled out that went to the pd, in addition to 4473.

Still waiting to hear if there is anything more to this.

Yeah, funny thing about pawn shops....back in 1984 (I think, or it may have been 1983) I was working as an armed security guard at the Johns-Manville facilities in Jeffco (the R&D facility is still there, near Kipling and C-470, the other building is now Lockheed-Martin's 'Deer Creek Facility' in Deer Creek Canyon but it was originally built as the JM World Headquarters in the early 70's.) Anyway, one evening after work I went for coffee with friends at a place in old downtown and foolishly left my pistol (Colt Trooper Mk III) and all my gear in a bag in the back seat of my car and forgot to lock the car. Came back and it was gone. I reported the theft to the police, bought another pistol (A S&W M19 that I still have) and wrote it off as an expensive lesson learned.

A year or so later, I got a letter from the Boulder County sheriff's dept saying they had made an arrest in a crime in which I was a victim. I had pretty much forgotten about the whole thing and had no idea what this was about, I called them up and the person answering the phone said "Oh, you had a gun stolen last year right? Well, we recovered it." Turns out they had arrested someone for drunk driving, and when they inventoried his car, they found my gun.

So when I went to pick it up, I asked the cops if they arrested the guy for having stolen property. They told me he bought it "legitimately" from a pawn shop. So then I said "well, someone sold it to the pawn shop, right? So I assume you tracked down THAT guy?" Uh, no. Turns out that the pawn shop he bought it from didn't record the identity of the person THEY got it from.

Anyway, my point with all this is that while it's true that there are rules that pawnshops have to follow, it's clear from my experience that a lot of these rules only exist on paper, in the real world, some shops follow them and some shops don't.

[hurley842002]

Yeah, funny thing about pawn shops....back in 1984 (I think, or it may have been 1983) I was working as an armed security guard at the Johns-Manville facilities in Jeffco (the R&D facility is still there, near Kipling and C-470, the other building is now Lockheed-Martin's 'Deer Creek Facility' in Deer Creek Canyon but it was originally built as the JM World Headquarters in the early 70's.) Anyway, one evening after work I went for coffee with friends at a place in old downtown and foolishly left my pistol (Colt Trooper Mk III) and all my gear in a bag in the back seat of my car and forgot to lock the car. Came back and it was gone. I reported the theft to the police, bought another pistol (A S&W M19 that I still have) and wrote it off as an expensive lesson learned.

A year or so later, I got a letter from the Boulder County sheriff's dept saying they had made an arrest in a crime in which I was a victim. I had pretty much forgotten about the whole thing and had no idea what this was about, I called them up and the person answering the phone said "Oh, you had a gun stolen last year right? Well, we recovered it." Turns out they had arrested someone for drunk driving, and when they inventoried his car, they found my gun.

So when I went to pick it up, I asked the cops if they arrested the guy for having stolen property. They told me he bought it "legitimately" from a pawn shop. So then I said "well, someone sold it to the pawn shop, right? So I assume you tracked down THAT guy?" Uh, no. Turns out that the pawn shop he bought it from didn't record the identity of the person THEY got it from.

Anyway, my point with all this is that while it's true that there are rules that pawnshops have to follow, it's clear from my experience that a lot of these rules only exist on paper, in the real world, some shops follow them and some shops don't.

Good thing they found your gun during a DUI and not a homicide, not something I'd care to have on my conscience.

[Skip]

RFB. I used to go there often when I lived closer. That sucks. They are closing due to the camera ordinance?

This really sucks! Steve and Dawn are awesome.

I hope they set up shop again somewhere close.

[.455_Hunter]

I would think the stores in question could find another location to operate instead of throwing in the towel, but maybe such a disruption and expense would not be workable in the current gun buying market. I know staffs at other stores have been forced to downsize recently. Maybe the Shootin Shop can become an avocado toast hipster hangout?

[drew890]

The Rapidfire and the Shooting Shop are the ones closing. Rapidfire is a great transfer store. It's too bad. They will be missed. Appears to be a municipal thing.
Still waiting for any evidence that these closures are related to the unsubstantiated rumor of these cameras.
Has there been any credible evidence of these rumored cameras?

[BladesNBarrels]

Has there been any credible evidence of these rumored cameras?

Want to buy a gun? Wait a second while I plug this in and connect to the police.

https://i.imgur.com/fo8oxN5.jpg

[FoxtArt]

Want to buy a gun? Wait a second while I plug this in and connect to the police.

https://i.imgur.com/fo8oxN5.jpg

Now that you've seen a $5 web camera, you'll blame our closure on the gov't and not contribute to the spreading of rumors as to why we really are shutting down.


(I've seen similar stuff from other FFL's closing down, not sure I've ever gotten the real story from the source) That's why people are incredulous. Seeing a camera doesn't mean there's a legitimate policy, it could be completely bogus. Hell, I've even for bemusement contributed to the invention of new rumors just by f'ing with people who were conspiracy minded.

Now, I'm not saying it's bullshit, nor am I dragging them through the mud. However, if I placed blind faith into the assertions of others, I'd have died a slow, agonizing death treating a deadly preventable virus with essential oils, all while covered in palm leaves and a face mask made out of dog shit.

TLDR: I like anyone SHOULD, do NOT trust the assertions of any other person especially when said information should readily have a verifiable source. FFL's often contribute to spreading about as much BS as some of the eccentric customers that patronize them.

[OneGuy67]

I was at RFB a couple of weeks ago and they only had like 6 guns in their display cases. I was wondering if they were closing.

[battle_sight_zero]

Ok so I went and verified this is happening in Littleton. To prove what I have been saying is true put up a bolt action that I planned to get rid of on Armlist. Buyer agreed to meet me at a Littleton store. Sparta tactical on Bowels. When I got there here is what took place, and must point out everything I heard stories from the other FFL they were asked to do.

#1. Met buyer in store. Let him check firearm over.
#2. Check rifle in at store. Noted camera on cash register. Asked FFL for permission to take pictures.
3. Buyer feels out ATF form.
4. FFL has my license continues check in.
5. Buyer passes background
6. I am directed to position to take photo.
7. Photo taken
8. FFl holds drivers license up for camera takes picture
9. I am given form with strange questions
10. FFl produces another with my picture, drivers license copy and a convient place for finger print.
11. I give fingerprint and sign.

Anyways I have photos of this adventure. I have tried to upload. So someone that can post them I'd be happy to email you.

In closing this seems like extreme overreach to me. I did email the NRA. May never hear anything.

[battle_sight_zero]

Ps. I would have not done this if people would have believed it. I feel that this will spread and put others out of business.

[BPTactical]

Whoa there big guy-Information overload.

What type of "strange" questions?
Why would you consent to this written interrogation?
Why would you consent to your photo being taken?
Why would you consent to your print being taken?

If you don't like the way Littleton is conducting business, why patronize a Littleton business?


I would have told them to fuck right off, I am not applying for a tax stamp or applying for a FFL therefore my prints or photo are not required for a firearm purchase/transfer, you ain't getting them, I'm not providing them and I'm not doing my business with you.


Interestingly the City of Littletons Codes and Ordinances regarding weapons are not available for public viewing.

[battle_sight_zero]

BP I did it to find out what this new process was. I wanted the correct information to get it to higher channels so that it does not spread. Until someone had proof it was just a rumor. Working on the pictures. Hope all is well with you.

[Skip]

Reminds me of MEPS.

You didn’t take an oath did you?

[Irving]

Thanks for taking one for the team.

[FoxtArt]

These are the photos referenced:

780757807678077

So, the letter is normal, that's part of a pawnbroker process, and has been for a long, long time. It seems bizarre to those whom are unfamiliar with pawns, but it's not firearm-targeted, per se; just provides a window of opportunity to LEO and victims since pawn shops are a primary source for dumping stolen goods.

That said, it shouldn't be used in a private party context, and I doubt anyone is requesting it be used in that context. There's so many requirements on everyone that nothing is done 100% consistently, and many dealers are confused or outright bewildered. The questions have changed ever so slightly, with I think the third question being added, but I'm not for certain. At any rate, know that's all been par for the course.

The dealer shouldn't (AFAIK) be using pawnbroker process with private party transfers, which have their own instructions. The fact that the dealer is trying to provide a pawnbroker letter as part of a private party transfer to justify the camera without providing separate explanation is very strange (to me). Even if they are nice people, there is no requirement to utilize video and I'm almost certain they have likely done so only on their own initiative; or at any rate, it's not the product of a department wide policy.

What their motivation would be, I'm not sure. Like I said, I won't smear them, but dealers are often a very bad source for information on all sorts of things, especially regulations and laws. The consistency and quality of info (and the spread of rumor) is often no better than randomly asking a gun enthusiast at a public shooting range. Even LEO get it wrong sometimes. Perhaps they misinterpreted something along the way, who knows.

There's nothing out of the ordinary in the paperwork except for incorrectly applying it to private party sales or regular firearm transactions. Maybe they completely blew it out of proportion and added a video camera when an individual LEO who was also misinformed confused them further. That's my prevailing theory.

ETA: Also I'd still like to thank the OP for digging into this. It is important that we maintain vigilance, to shut down legitimate issues before they grow while also being skeptical.

[kidicarus13]

Thanks for verifying all of this OP. Gotta love the Take Back The Second flyers on the counter.

[OneGuy67]

I would agree with OxArt's assessment of the situation. Nothing in the statute requires it to adhered to for a private party transfer. I can see an argument for the sale of used firearms to the store or even on consignment, but not for a direct private party transfer.

[battle_sight_zero]

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the patience on the matter. I need to get myself a laptop. As for the SHOP in the picture they are just trying to stay afloat. They do not like doing any of this. As for Rapidfire this was call to pack up.

[battle_sight_zero]

Ps. The cameras were provided by the law enforcement officers not the business. Audio and video feed. Both FFLs informed data was being sent to a 3rd party server. As for me this adventure will be my last one with this camera nonsense.

[Skip]

IANAL but I'm not sure how the definition of a pawnbroker can be stretched to include consignment services.

And I struggle to understand the policy benefits because I'm not sure thieves would ever use a consignment service--they want quick money.


Ps. The cameras were provided by the law enforcement officers not the business. Audio and video feed. Both FFLs informed data was being sent to a 3rd party server. As for me this adventure will be my last one with this camera nonsense.

Audio and video of a business where little word makes me a felon is a no-go for me too. It's not just a violation of the customer's privacy at that point.

Example: If the camera hears speech from customers that can be inferred to mean a straw transfer, but my human hears miss it (happens), I'm done and I've just documented the case against me.

Maybe I'm having a hard time following this thread but I'm not connecting where LE/the law is compelling the use of cameras via the law. I get the whole "ticket" thing that has been the case. If Littleton PD is just forcing the issue by fiat, seems to be a bad precedent to allow that to happen.

[battle_sight_zero]

Maybe I'm having a hard time following this thread but I'm not connecting where LE/the law is compelling the use of cameras via the law.

I do not either but the fact is police are providing the camera and informing the FFL they must install it under law they cite in the letter and requiring transfers to be covered by this nonsense. When I transfer a firearm I not pawning anything. I dont consign qbut many people do. Reading this letter makes it look like the firearm must be held 30 days etc. To me this is all overreach and is doing nothing to improve public safety.

[drew890]

Maybe I'm having a hard time following this thread but I'm not connecting where LE/the law is compelling the use of cameras via the law.

I do not either but the fact is police are providing the camera and informing the FFL they must install it under law they cite in the letter and requiring transfers to be covered by this nonsense. When I transfer a firearm I not pawning anything. I dont consign qbut many people do. Reading this letter makes it look like the firearm must be held 30 days etc. To me this is all overreach and is doing nothing to improve public safety.
Is there another letter because I don’t see anything in that letter pertaining to cameras or audio/video monitoring.
I have yet to see any documentation in this thread that an LEO agency is requiring audio/video monitoring.
Second hand rumor that an unidentified LEO provided video cameras to a FFL with claims that a third party service would be used while providing no court order and no legal documentation still sounds highly suspicious to me.

[battle_sight_zero]

It's not a rumor. SPARTA and Rapidfire were provided the same cameras by law enforcement. The Littleton Police Department is the agency who dropped the camera off with the letter. For neighsayers just go by or ask the stores. Rapidfire closes Friday for good, and Sparta is open tommorow. As for me I am tired of defending what I reported. They are there in the darn stores. It's up to us to stop this crap from spreading.

[TFOGGER]

So, Littleton is opening themselves up to a massive lawsuit for violating the CRS as it regards local jurisdictional control and establishing a registry of firearms owners and firearms...

[battle_sight_zero]

So, Littleton is opening themselves up to a massive lawsuit for violating the CRS as it regards local jurisdictional control and establishing a registry of firearms owners and firearms...

I did call the NRA on Friday about the situation. I shared with them the process that I went through. They gave me an email to send the pictures. Personally I hope this all a misinterpretation of the process for consignments and transfers. I did mess up and not get a picture of the 2nd page with the camera setup. I will try to get that for the naysayers. As for going through the process it felt wrong to me. If this process spreads I sure will not be trading with others anymore or putting my unwanted item on consignment. I dont believe many others would like to do the same. I have for one been compliant with transfer law since it was implemented in 2013. This discourages following that law. On a related note to transfers many of the firearms on auction sites like Gunbroker are used or sold by sellers without an FFL. How would that be interpreted?

[Doc45]

As far as the other sites-you don’t have to have an ffl to ship a gun IF the receiving dealer accepts from individuals. In all the years I’ve bought and sold on GB I’ve never been solicited to send a firearm directly to a non-ffl holding individual.

I have found it to be more economical however to use an ffl locally to ship to the receiving ffl.

This camera thing seems like something to be addressed with the City of Littleton as it appears isolated there-definitely not happening in other cities in Arapahoe County.

To the op-you went well beyond anything I would’ve done, thanks for that.

[hollohas]

If the letter is all Littleton PD provided, I'd politely tell them to take their cameras with them when the leave. There is nothing in that letter that says FFL's are legally required to install them. The police can't just run around telling people they "must do this because we said so". It doesn't work that way.

[drew890]

If the letter is all Littleton PD provided, I'd politely tell them to take their cameras with them when the leave. There is nothing in that letter that says FFL's are legally required to install them. The police can't just run around telling people they "must do this because we said so". It doesn't work that way.
Yes, this.
Tell them that you will not comply with their request of video surveillance of your private property and business.
They can direct any further communication regarding the matter to your attorney.

[BPTactical]

If the letter is all Littleton PD provided, I'd politely tell them to take their cameras with them when the leave. There is nothing in that letter that says FFL's are legally required to install them. The police can't just run around telling people they "must do this because we said so". It doesn't work that way.

And then the city will "conveniently" find your business in violation of city zoning/regulations and shut the business down.

Drew890's response is spot on.

[CS1983]

Bummer. Rapidfire was such a great business and the folks there are so nice and customer service oriented. Really liked stopping in there when we lived in Littleton.

[Skip]

Yes, this.
Tell them that you will not comply with their request of video surveillance of your private property and business.
They can direct any further communication regarding the matter to your attorney.

This feels good but as a store-front FFL you really need local LE to be on your side for a few reasons. If LE is treating the business this way, it's time to go. I'm sure rents/leases in downtown Littleton were probably on the high side anyway.

If I were another dealer in the area, I would make note of the agency that behaved this way and deal with them accordingly when they commuted to do business in my shop. Might catch some flak for saying that here, but if the agency has acted outside the law in requiring video/audio of all business in the shop, eff them.

[hurley842002]

I'm sure rents/leases in downtown Littleton were probably on the high side anyway
.

I wouldn't be surprised if this has more to do with them closing than anything, I've lived within walking distance of downtown Littleton for 3 years now, and I don't know how many of the small business afford rent in that location with the lack of businesses I see at the smaller stores. Honestly, with the exception of me, the folks on here, and possibly a few others local, a gun store is not really what the demographic wants in that location, and if I'm really being honest, I'd rather see RFB in a heavily trafficked shopping center, and a small brewery or something go into their current location.

[battle_sight_zero]

As a note I was able to get a copy of missing part of the letter and also a copy of the instructions about setting up the camera. The camera is serviced by https://www.leadsonline.com/main/index.php . Look for the images of the letter soon.

As for RapidFire I am sure it was expensive for them as heck at that location. However I am confident in my belief that they are closing because of this overreach and that they feel this will impede there ability to make a profit. I know that my experience with the camera, extra paper work and figerprint was not comfortable and I would not repeat it ever. I don't like the fact a 3rd party server is storing that information as well beyond the paperwork a FFL files. I am not speaking for Rapidfire but there goodbye message says alot https://rapidfirebunker.com/# . In closing I hope all of us will do our part from keeping this from spreading. I have no doubt that someone is pulling the so called puppet strings and watching what is going on so it can spread through Colorado.

[FoxtArt]

As a note I was able to get a copy of missing part of the letter and also a copy of the instructions about setting up the camera. The camera is serviced by https://www.leadsonline.com/main/index.php . Look for the images of the letter soon.

As for RapidFire I am sure it was expensive for them as heck at that location. However I am confident in my belief that they are closing because of this overreach and that they feel this will impede there ability to make a profit. I know that my experience with the camera, extra paper work and figerprint was not comfortable and I would not repeat it ever. I don't like the fact a 3rd party server is storing that information as well beyond the paperwork a FFL files. I am not speaking for Rapidfire but there goodbye message says alot https://rapidfirebunker.com/# . In closing I hope all of us will do our part from keeping this from spreading. I have no doubt that someone is pulling the so called puppet strings and watching what is going on so it can spread through Colorado.

Thank you BSZ. This is now confirmed. Here are the pictures:



7809478095780967809778098

I am busy at the moment so I'll contribute much more to discussion later. I've done some preliminary research and it seems there are a lot of cases nationwide regarding this company (dating back at least to 2013), which gives kickbacks to LEO / police chiefs for implementing the program. Some states have appeared to have ruled it unconstitutional already.

ETA: Thank you to whomever updated the thread title.

[BPTactical]

Something something "Shall not keep a database".





Littleton, City of can eat a bag of dicks.

I've patronized Hudson Gardens, Romanos and The Melting Pot for the last time.

[davsel]

Appears optional.
Or did I miss something?

[battle_sight_zero]

Appears optional.
Or did I miss something?
FFLs stated it was presented as not optional.

[FoxtArt]

FFLs stated it was presented as not optional.

Yeah, just like NYC. Technically may be optional, but when the chief of police gets direct $ for your enrollment, they won't present it as optional, and if you refuse..... Suffice to say many of the cases surround police harassment/overreach of NY pawn shops that refused. No reason to believe this is different.

[00tec]

Appears optional.
Or did I miss something?

No references to any law requiring it. I would tell em to pound sand.

[electronman1729]

So with camera, how is the power consumption metered so you can bill Littleton? Do you also bill Littleton for your time for setting this up and working with them?

[BPTactical]

Understandable for pawnbroker operations, not for FTF Xfers or OTC sales though.

[battle_sight_zero]

Understandable for pawnbroker operations, not for FTF Xfers or OTC sales though.

Agreed. I wonder how Triple J is working with this. They do consignments. Be interested to see what anyone finds out. As for this camera company how are they compensated? I will not be surprised if this spreads to other Denver metro cities. I would not be surprised that a certain segment of a political party is pushing this to see how it goes as a test of the waters. Just to be clear so far this is for transfers from person to person and consignment turn ins. Basically if you put your firearm on consignment you are expected to complete the extra form, your firearm description and serial number logged and provided to the so called service, you are then photographed, your driver license photographed, and then fingerprinted. If you trade with someone both of you would do the same on top of the regular background check and transfer procedures. To top it off they are requiring the FFL to hold the firearm for 30 days before placing it for sale. So many ways this letter could interpreted, so if you trade you could have to wait 30 days to do so. Hope it gets trashed. Its nonsense.

[Brass]

The letter seems to ask the gun shop to implement this system. It doesn't say it's a requirement, does it?

[tactical_2012]

I could see how this would apply if you put your Firearm on consignment as it is the samething as selling to a pawn shop but for ftf private transfer doesn't seem right

[Great-Kazoo]

I could see how this would apply if you put your Firearm on consignment as it is the same thing as selling to a pawn shop but for ftf private transfer doesn't seem right

That's never stopped a .gov entity before.

[jslo]

Agreed. I wonder how Triple J is working with this. They do consignments. Be interested to see what anyone finds out. As for this camera company how are they compensated? I will not be surprised if this spreads to other Denver metro cities. I would not be surprised that a certain segment of a political party is pushing this to see how it goes as a test of the waters. Just to be clear so far this is for transfers from person to person and consignment turn ins. Basically if you put your firearm on consignment you are expected to complete the extra form, your firearm description and serial number logged and provided to the so called service, you are then photographed, your driver license photographed, and then fingerprinted. If you trade with someone both of you would do the same on top of the regular background check and transfer procedures. To top it off they are requiring the FFL to hold the firearm for 30 days before placing it for sale. So many ways this letter could interpreted, so if you trade you could have to wait 30 days to do so. Hope it gets trashed. Its nonsense.

Believe Triple J, is technically, in Centennial

[Skip]

Appears optional.
Or did I miss something?

Yup. Littleton PD can implement whatever they'd like. Doesn't give them license to compel businesses to implement the same.

But like I said, all things considered, if I were an FFL this would be strong signal to close up shop. There is probably a very strong anti-gun sentiment behind the extension by fiat of something meant for pawnshops.

I asked previously what the policy benefit here could possible be. 90+% of my business with RFB was out of state transfers so their cameras would never record the seller. Only the FFL and I would be recorded. How does that aid in the investigation of stolen property? All they'd have is the dealer book, cameras or sans cameras.


FFLs stated it was presented as not optional.

Pretty stupid decision to accept this, IMHO.

There are only two reasonable options...

1. Close
2. Tell PD to eff off and deal with the consequences


I doubt any of those FFLs staying in business and accepting this consulted an attorney to understand all the reasons this is a horrible decision.

[tactical_2012]

Spoke to a LE friend who helped clarify this. So when a private seller takes his firearm to an FFL to do a private transfer the transfer is actually a 3 way transfer the gun goes from the seller, then goes on the books with the FFL, and then the FFL transfers the gun to the buyer. So required as a business taking in the gun they are required to do the same process as if you were consigning, pawning, or selling the gun to them. The seller is the only one that has to submit to the questionnaire, finger print, and photo NOT the buyer. The reason is when you do the FFL transfer CBI does not clear the serial number on the weapon being sold. There was incident in which a local gun shop took a weapon on consignment and sold it to a private individual that individual was a Legal CCW holder and had LE contact in another state. When his weapon serial number was cleared it came back as stolen as it was a stolen weapon when it was consigned and never cleared before being sold.

I as a buyer am shocked to find out that even doing private ffl transfers CBI does t clear the serial number to check if it is stolen.

[sroz]

Serial number is not included in the submission to CBI. They never see it.

[Great-Kazoo]

Serial number is not included in the submission to CBI. They never see it.

That may an dIIRC is different for Pawn shops. Not a stand alone FFL, since, as mentioned, CBI does not do any thing regarding serial numners. It's the usual Name DL, D.O.B, SS if written down, gender, race, citizen. Hand gun, long gun, other

[Skip]

Spoke to a LE friend who helped clarify this. So when a private seller takes his firearm to an FFL to do a private transfer the transfer is actually a 3 way transfer the gun goes from the seller, then goes on the books with the FFL, and then the FFL transfers the gun to the buyer. So required as a business taking in the gun they are required to do the same process as if you were consigning, pawning, or selling the gun to them. The seller is the only one that has to submit to the questionnaire, finger print, and photo NOT the buyer. The reason is when you do the FFL transfer CBI does not clear the serial number on the weapon being sold. There was incident in which a local gun shop took a weapon on consignment and sold it to a private individual that individual was a Legal CCW holder and had LE contact in another state. When his weapon serial number was cleared it came back as stolen as it was a stolen weapon when it was consigned and never cleared before being sold.

I as a buyer am shocked to find out that even doing private ffl transfers CBI does t clear the serial number to check if it is stolen.

The FFL never exchanges funds in this scenario and isn't the broker. He only paid his transfer fee for the service of a "background check." If a buyer fails a check, what happens? Seller walks out with his gun.

A camera isn't checking the serials. So again, there is no policy benefit here other than stomping on gun owners and legally endangering FFLs.

[Little Dutch]

Spoke to a LE friend who helped clarify this. So when a private seller takes his firearm to an FFL to do a private transfer the transfer is actually a 3 way transfer the gun goes from the seller, then goes on the books with the FFL, and then the FFL transfers the gun to the buyer. So required as a business taking in the gun they are required to do the same process as if you were consigning, pawning, or selling the gun to them. The seller is the only one that has to submit to the questionnaire, finger print, and photo NOT the buyer. The reason is when you do the FFL transfer CBI does not clear the serial number on the weapon being sold. There was incident in which a local gun shop took a weapon on consignment and sold it to a private individual that individual was a Legal CCW holder and had LE contact in another state. When his weapon serial number was cleared it came back as stolen as it was a stolen weapon when it was consigned and never cleared before being sold.

I as a buyer am shocked to find out that even doing private ffl transfers CBI does t clear the serial number to check if it is stolen.

CBI shouldn?t even be involved in the process. The whole thing started is a scam designed to make it harder and more expensive for law abiding people to buy and sell firearms.

Your friend is mistaken as well. The ffl does not take in the firearm. They never own it and it never goes on their books.

[CS1983]

CBI shouldn?t even be involved in the process. The whole thing started is a scam designed to make it harder and more expensive for law abiding people to buy and sell firearms.

Your friend is mistaken as well. The ffl does not take in the firearm. They never own it and it never goes on their books.

Why would Law Enforcement know the mechanism of the law? :D

[ray1970]

Your friend is mistaken as well. The ffl does not take in the firearm. They never own it and it never goes on their books.

Then every FFL I?ve used for a private party transfer since the law went into affect has been doing it wrong.

[CS1983]

Is that semantics? I mean, is it really property of the FFL at any point during the private party transfer? Or do they just act as a legal agent for the state in such a regard as confirming pertinent info and assisting with the BGC?

[Little Dutch]

Then every FFL I?ve used for a private party transfer since the law went into affect has been doing it wrong.

Correct. You should find a better informed ffl. The ffl is simply being paid to use their CBI account to run a CBI background check.

[Little Dutch]

Is that semantics? I mean, is it really property of the FFL at any point during the private party transfer? Or do they just act as a legal agent for the state in such a regard as confirming pertinent info and assisting with the BGC?

I think it's mostly semantics, yes. Unless the dealer believes that once it is on their FFL books, they must perform a BGC to transfer it out to anyone. This becomes a problem if the buyer on a private sale is rejected by the system. The dealer would then be obligated to run a BGC on the seller before he can let him leave with the firearm, because it's in his books.

[BPTactical]

In this thread we see who has no idea of the requirements of a FFL.
It's not semantics, it is law.
A- A FFL cannot lawfully "Transfer" an asset unless it is logged into their books.
B- The minute a FFL logs an asset into their books regardless of circumstances it is known as an "Acquisition" and therefore, is the possession and responsibility of the FFL until it is "Disposed"(Transferred) of.
C- Unless the FFL is Disposing/transferring the asset to another FFL a 4473 and ensuing BGC must be performed on the party the asset is being transferred to regardless who they are (even the party selling/transferring the asset and wishing to reclaim it).


From HB-13-1229

(b) A LICENSED GUN DEALER WHO OBTAINS A BACKGROUND CHECK
ON A PROSPECTIVE TRANSFEREE SHALL RECORD THE TRANSFER, AS PROVIDED
IN SECTION 12-26-102, C.R.S., AND RETAIN THE RECORDS, AS PROVIDED IN
SECTION 12-26-103,C.R.S., IN THE SAME MANNER AS WHEN CONDUCTING A
SALE, RENTAL, OR EXCHANGE AT RETAIL.THE LICENSED GUN DEALER SHALL
COMPLY WITH ALL STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS, INCLUDING 18 U.S.C. SEC.
922, AS IF HE OR SHE WERE TRANSFERRING THE FIREARM FROM HIS OR HER
INVENTORY TO THE PROSPECTIVE TRANSFEREE

[Circuits]

In this thread we see who has no idea of the requirements of a FFL.
It's not semantics, it is law.
A- A FFL cannot lawfully "Transfer" an asset unless it is logged into their books.


The only thing most FFLs get wrong is that the asset is not required to be entered into their books for them to initiate a private party sale background check.

It only goes in the book if the transfer is approved, then it goes on the book and immediately off the book to the transferee. If the sale is delayed or denied, the FFL just notes that it was an incomplete private party sale background check on the 4473, which must be retained for 20 years per regulations. See ATF Procedure 2017-1 and read the back of the 4473 for full instructions.

[battle_sight_zero]

Some good points in the thread. I am glad to see that fellow Colorado gun owners are concerned as I am. As for RapidFire they are closed permanently as of 6pm today. The owner said to thank all of you for your business over the last 10 years. Steve and Dawn are nice people and I appreciated the service they gave me. It was a small shop, but I made a point at every birthday and Christmas to order things like gear such as knifes, fishing licenses, first aid supplies. and of course consignments and transfer . Little family members got their 1st 22s from that store under the trees. Had many friends come to the store for transfers and other purchases too. I will always remember using the knives to dress a deer or clean fish with my kids. I am pretty sad but I am sure I will find a new place in another city away from Littleton. However as they said this was the final straw for them. I am sure the store will find a new tenant, but really do we need another, brewery, wine, clothes store or a vaping gear store? Hope you guys can stop the spread of madness that has infected our State.

[hurley842002]

I am sure the store will find a new tenant, but really do we need another, brewery.

Yes we do, my hobbies don?t stop with guns, that being said, I?m still sad to see them go, and beyond frustrated at the reason they are closing.

I?ve been in Littleton for three years now, with the intent to move out of state once I?m in a position to make a good promotional move, Littleton has made the wait much more tolerable than I had imagined, and it?s terrible to see the local government treat the 2a community this way.

[Rucker61]

I think it's mostly semantics, yes. Unless the dealer believes that once it is on their FFL books, they must perform a BGC to transfer it out to anyone. This becomes a problem if the buyer on a private sale is rejected by the system. The dealer would then be obligated to run a BGC on the seller before he can let him leave with the firearm, because it's in his books.

I've had this happen.

[Skip]

In this thread we see who has no idea of the requirements of a FFL.
It's not semantics, it is law.
A- A FFL cannot lawfully "Transfer" an asset unless it is logged into their books.
B- The minute a FFL logs an asset into their books regardless of circumstances it is known as an "Acquisition" and therefore, is the possession and responsibility of the FFL until it is "Disposed"(Transferred) of.
C- Unless the FFL is Disposing/transferring the asset to another FFL a 4473 and ensuing BGC must be performed on the party the asset is being transferred to regardless who they are (even the party selling/transferring the asset and wishing to reclaim it).


From HB-13-1229


Letter uses the word broker. "Pawnshops" (broker by CRS) and "firearms broker."

FFL is not necessarily a broker on a transfer. And I think can only be a broker if he has a financial interest in the transfer as a principle. Consignments would probably fit under that since the dealer is arranging the sale.

Momentary custody shouldn't make the FFL a broker. If he is then he has a lot more liability then I think most are aware of.

[FoxtArt]

This thread makes it clear that people don't understand FFL requirements, and LEO often understand them even less than the layperson but have a false belief they understand squat. It goes without stretch of the imagination that Littleton LEO are telling stores this is required "under the law" for "all firearm transactions" and if they don't comply, "they could be arrested". Some of the worst interpretations I've seen of regulation doesn't come even from a random conspiracy nut at the range, but a POST certified officer, because their education can be as little as one semester, of which almost nothing beyond an introduction covers law (much less regulation); so you have that dangerous presumption that they know more than everyone else (e.g. you). So, "you better install that camera, you have to, we're not leaving until you do. "

I think LEO that fully understand firearm and FFL regulations are less than 1/100. While it wouldn't work on me, I could see why the LEO presence and spiel would compel compliance or closure with 95% of stores. And that, in part, is why this is such an issue. It isn't presented as optional, it's implied as required (we need you to register by May 31, 2019....)

[mb504]

So, Rapid Fire Bunker closed for good today.

Related to this issue?

https://rapidfirebunker.com/


At Rapid Fire Bunker, we enjoyed sharing our experience of emergency preparedness and knowing first-hand the importance of quality & instructional services within the Firearm Industry. We had the pleasure of working with thousands of customers and their families over the past ten years, setting the customer service bar higher within the Colorado firearm industry. Each of you touched our hearts and provided lessons that we in turn shared with others.

Providing services to protect and prepare our loved ones, allowed us to make a difference in the lives of every customer that walked through our doors. The smiles and stories that each of you entrusted with our staff etched the very fabric that made Rapid Fire Bunker memorable.

Seek out experiences that uphold your constitutional rights and demand others in the Firearms Industry respect your privacy with all personal information.
Steve, Dawn and the entire staff at Rapid Fire Bunker wish all your future endeavors be filled with adventure and integrity. You will be missed.

[Circuits]

Seems like every time I read a news story, Colorado is broken and just keeps getting worse.

I don't know what to do.

[Squeeze]

I've known Steve & Dawn for many years. I will miss their store greatly. They are great people and I truly wish the best for them both.

[battle_sight_zero]

So, Rapid Fire Bunker closed for good today.

Related to this issue?

https://rapidfirebunker.com/

Yes this is what started the thread. They closed their doors because of this fingerprint ,camera and 3rd party monitoring nonsense.

They were referencing the issue here

Seek out experiences that uphold your constitutional rights and demand others in the Firearms Industry respect your privacy with all personal information.

[hurley842002]

Ok so I went and verified this is happening in Littleton. To prove what I have been saying is true put up a bolt action that I planned to get rid of on Armlist. Buyer agreed to meet me at a Littleton store. Sparta tactical on Bowels. When I got there here is what took place, and must point out everything I heard stories from the other FFL they were asked to do.

#1. Met buyer in store. Let him check firearm over.
#2. Check rifle in at store. Noted camera on cash register. Asked FFL for permission to take pictures.
3. Buyer feels out ATF form.
4. FFL has my license continues check in.
5. Buyer passes background
6. I am directed to position to take photo.
7. Photo taken
8. FFl holds drivers license up for camera takes picture
9. I am given form with strange questions
10. FFl produces another with my picture, drivers license copy and a convient place for finger print.
11. I give fingerprint and sign.

Anyways I have photos of this adventure. I have tried to upload. So someone that can post them I'd be happy to email you.

In closing this seems like extreme overreach to me. I did email the NRA. May never hear anything.

It would appear that "New Sparta Combat Sports" has closed, drove by there the other day and it was completely empty, Google confirmed. Unfortunately I never got to check them out, despite being right around the corner.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190910/7f15b19ab425e348a62d3c171fb53942.jpg


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