Students, Here?s A Plan To Solve Your Debt Problem (You Won?t Like It)

[roberth]

https://townhall.com/columnists/kurtschlichter/2019/05/30/students-heres-a-plan-to-solve-your-debt-problem-you-wont-like-it-n2546947


Now, those who support the idea of taking my money to give it to someone else so that someone else can have things he, she or xe wants rarely put it so bluntly. It?s never, ?Well, I want this education but I don?t want to do the things necessary to pay for it. I want you other people to do the things necessary to pay for it.? Instead, it?s always put in some other way that makes them taking our money to spend on things they want appear as a favor to us, the people expected to do the work.

Was discussing this with a stupid little commie at work a few years ago. She was appalled that I protested when she told me she thought her "education" should be "free". She did not and probably still does not understand that NOTHING is free, someone has to pay. I asked her "what do I get from this neat little arrangement?" and "do I get to monitor your progress?" and "what if you're striving for a useless degree?", of course she had no answers.

[sellersm]

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[MrPrena]

I wonder how much does Dr. Ramos MD JD has in student debt.

[Irving]

It's interesting that people still make fun of non-STEM majors, because in my experience, there are a LOT of jobs available above barista that require a college degree, but they don't care at all what the degree is.

[Justin]

I think there's something to be said for not picking a useless major*, and for working your way through college and doing everything to minimize school-related debts.

However, there's a flip side to this argument as well, and that is that the cost of a college education has skyrocketed.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/29/how-much-college-tuition-has-increased-from-1988-to-2018.html

Of course, some of this is due to the fact that the government, in a futile attempt to make college more affordable, has helicoptered all kinds of money into higher ed, which just drives prices up.

On top of that, unless you go into the military or the trades, our society practically requires that you have a 4 year bachelor's degree in something in order to have a shot at getting even an entry level job, something that was not the case three or four decades ago.

The result of this is that, unless your parents are well off, or started saving for your college tuition when you were still in diapers, you're unlikely to be able to afford college without getting a loan of some sort. Of course, the public education system has already failed these kids, so in many instances, they're not even completely aware of what they're signing up for, or what strings are attached to those loans, so of course they take the money without looking too closely at what they need to do to pay it back, or questioning whether they'll be able to land a job that will pay well enough for them to get started on their life and pay back their loans.

While its clear that a lot of prospective college students make poor choices in degree and financing, my general impression of the industry that services these students is run by a bunch of despicable douchebags who know they're gatekeepers of the traditional American Dream, and as a result, they've built a system designed to extract as much money from college students as possible.




*Which can be easier said than done. Colleges lie about graduate job prospects all the time.

[Irving]

^That.

[kidicarus13]

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[whitewalrus]

I?ve worked since I was 15, put off going to school so I could afford to pay for myself and worked jobs that didn?t pay as well as those I got post degree as I didn?t want to start in the hole. It?s the students choice to get the loan or even go in the first place. There are cheaper options as well.


And if they go forgiving everyone?s student loans, I?m going to get a doctorate level degree and put as much other crap on the expenses as I can :)

[MrPrena]

Undergrad and post grads are well worth pursuing. However, getting into a huge debt to do so is just not financially smart.

[Irving]

College costs significantly more today than even when I went to school, and I'm not yet 40. The biggest issue was the government fucking up and flooding the market with money so colleges jacked the rates up.

[MrPrena]

The word/phrase "Pulling a Faraday" will transform from electrical engineering/EM Physics to a "fuck college. I am going to DIY the education."

[Eric P]

My solution:
End tuition. End scholarships. End education loans.

If you go to school, you and the school enter into a contract. You go to school for free, the school get x% of your gross pay for the next 10 years.

So for a 2 year associates degree, 5% of your pay for 10 years goes to the school.

4 year bachelor's degree, 10% for 10 years.

Each master's degree and doctorate, 5% on top of the bachelor's degree or 5 more years.

You owe nothing if you dont finish. If you transfer and finish elsewhere, the school you get your degree from is paid.

So the school is now invested in your success and is incentivized to keep you there and to have you graduate.

Graduate and flip burgers, the school get not much in return.

Crazy, and will never be implemented because it destroys an entire industry of school loans and finance.

[Justin]

That scheme would also destroy the greivance studies majors overnight.

[Irving]

There is already a college that is doing that.

[CS1983]

So... basically, unionizing all education? Eek. That is just changing the points in the debt cycle, but it's still a cycle and it's still debt.

While I don't agree with his entire message, I think Andrew Yang brings up some good points to ponder here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DMCsXq_mYw

[Skip]

Agree with you OP, the sense of entitlement is so strong that a growing number of people think their very existence and wants is a public service.

Any solutions to this "crisis" that do not involve individual responsibility lead us down the road to ruin. Was looking at a social post regarding millennials and birth rates. The author posited that if we wanted millennials to have babies we must immediately forgive student debt while this generation is still capable of having children (age).

But then what about the next hill we need millennials to climb?

Getting/keeping a job
Housing costs
Healthcare costs
Food inflation
Social Security crisis
(Possible) major world war/conflict on a scale unseen since WWII


Boomers were generation "won't"
Xers are generation "meh"
Millennials are generation "can't"

The trend isn't good! And we can't keep indulging it with $140T in GAAP priced debt/liabilities.


(Of course there are exceptions and I think most of here are probably good examples. Our Vets in GWOT are a great example, if only they were the rule!)


Was reading this just this morning...

Debt-Laden Americans Flee Country To Escape Crushing Student Loans

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-05-27/debt-laden-americans-flee-country-escape-crushing-student-loans


"Some toilets here are holes in the ground you squat over," said Hagg, who added that he recently ate spoiled goat meat at a local restaurant, landing him in the emergency room. Still, he insists "I have a higher standard of living in a Third World country than I would in America, because of my student loans."

Sounds horrible! But so much better than putting a check in the mail each month.


"It?s kind of like, if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it, does it really exist?" said 29-year-old Chad Haag, who relocated from Colorado to a jungle in India to avoid paying his $20,000 loan balance. "I've put America behind me," said Haag - 9,000 miles away from home.

[LOL]

No one told this guy it's possible to pay off a $20K gov-backed loan over the course of decades? Of course he knows! Skating on $20K isn't a sign of being overwhelmed, it's an unwillingness to honor a commitment for value received! How many young kids finance cars for more and succeed in paying them off? Many of us are working on mortgages that are 20+x bigger!


With outstanding student debt projected to exceed $2 billion by 2022, the average graduate owes around $30,000, up from an inflation-adjusted $16,000 in the 1990s. As CNBC notes, salaries for those with new bachelor degrees have remained virtually flat over the last several decades.

That 100% increase isn't good but just reinforces that the "everyone must go to college" mentality isn't working and a degree is a bad business decision. It also means any free market evaluation has been "hacked" as consumers are over paying for a commodity.

Notice no solutions address this core problem because it would threaten the Lib establishment in education?

Still, $30K avg debt is not a "crisis." Here is what that means on a new retail loan assuming a fixed 6% (high)...

https://imgur.com/hgtbS92.jpg


They can bail out Chad all they want. But an "educated" person who won't work to pay off $30K, which means putting $333 (or less) in the mail each month, offers no deeming value to society.

[Bailey Guns]

There are all sorts of ways to get a "free" education. By that I mean the student pays very little of the cost. I don't understand why people would go so far into debt for a college education.

My wife has 3 Associates degrees and a Bachelors. I bet she didn't pay more than $1000 out of pocket for all of them combined.

RE: the guy going to India. I wish more scumbags would take that route. They can get phone support jobs there. At least I could understand them when I call for help.

[beast556]

The 30,000$ owed is BS. I work at a college and before the students left this year they were talking about how much they owe. I asked each one what they owed and what they were going to do once school ended. The least owed was 80,000 the highest of the groop was 125,000$. 80% had no plans or job lined up for after graduation.

[Aloha_Shooter]

My nephew worked his butt off in high school and got a combination of offers that let him go to a state university for $8K/yr cash after all grants and whatever so $30K owed is doable. He's majoring in bioengineering so career prospects on graduation should be quite good.

University tuition is a classic closed system with government funding being the outside energy input that causes temperature (tuition) to rise continually with no end in sight. Even 30 years ago, we bitched that tuition was rising at triple (or more) the reported inflation rate. The fact of the matter is that typical university administrators (especially at "prestigious" institutions) have NO incentive to reduce costs and will not do so until they do.

Acceptance rate at my alma mater was about 9% when I was still interviewing for them last year -- they really don't care if a handful of students "take their business elsewhere". I have basically cut off communication with the university at this stage; can't stand the antics of their regressively Marxist faculty or student body, can't defend their atrocious tuition or left wing SJW policies, won't donate money to perpetuate any of that garbage. This is coming from a (formerly) rabid pro-education alumnus. I'm proud of the education I received, cherish my memories, and regret little but I just can't keep supporting a cancer on society.

[Gman]

https://www.mikeroweworks.org/


What's the problem?
We've made work the enemy.
America has become slowly but undeniably disconnected from the most fundamental elements of civilization—food, energy, education, and the very nature of work itself.

Over the last 30 years, America has convinced itself that the best path for the most people is an expensive, four-year degree. Pop culture has glorified the “corner office job” while unintentionally belittling the jobs that helped build the corner office. As a result, our society has devalued any other path to success and happiness. Community colleges, trade schools, and apprenticeship programs are labeled as “alternative.” Millions of well-intended parents and guidance counselors see apprenticeships and on-the-job training opportunities as “vocational consolation prizes,” best suited for those not cut out for the brass ring: a four-year degree. The push for higher education has coincided with the removal of vocational arts from high schools nationwide. And the effects of this one-two punch have laid the foundation for a widening skills gap and massive student loan debt.

Today, the skills gap is wider than it’s ever been. The cost of college tuition has soared faster than the cost of food, energy, real estate, and health care. Student loan debt is the second highest consumer debt category in the United States with more than 44 million borrowers who collectively owe more than $1.5 trillion. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there are more than 7 million jobs available across the country, the majority of which don’t require a four-year degree. And still, we talk about millions of “shovel ready” jobs for a society that doesn’t encourage people to pick up a shovel. We keep lending money we don’t have to people who can’t pay it back for jobs that don’t exist. Bit by bit, our culture reaffirms the misguided belief that a career in the skilled trades shouldn’t be desired. And that lack of enthusiasm has reshaped our expectations of a “good job” into something that no longer resembles work.

[Skip]

The 30,000$ owed is BS. I work at a college and before the students left this year they were talking about how much they owe. I asked each one what they owed and what they were going to do once school ended. The least owed was 80,000 the highest of the groop was 125,000$. 80% had no plans or job lined up for after graduation.

The $30K number is avg which includes community college and state schools. Also includes students who got financial aid and help from family.

If higher ed is operating in a free market, then the higher the debt/cost, the higher the income potential as risk would correlate with reward. If someone has paid $80,000+ for a product designed to increase your life earnings/value, and faces difficulty just getting a job, then that person has bought into factors and values well outside of rational free market beliefs and made a horrible mistake.

But that was his mistake to make.

The disconnect from economics/market principles is why higher ed has gotten so expensive in the first place. Looking at that inflation number... If higher ed were 50% of the cost it currently is, would this still be a "crisis?" Given the values today probably, but $15K in debt is completely manageable.

[whitewalrus]

https://www.mikeroweworks.org/

I like that he is trying to promote the trades which have been really forgotten by many of today?s youth.

I know plenty of tradesman and handyman types that make damn good money and didn?t have to go get a degree to do it.

[Gman]

Yep, and instead of trying to pay off that debt for many years into their careers, they're able to set money aside for retirement. The time value of money is important if you want to grow wealth.

Besides, a lot of the people I know that have a lot of cool toys, and make their own schedules to enjoy them, are in the trades.

Doctors and lawyers need plumbers too. [Coffee]

[Eric P]

All these young video game playing adults could make bank operating construction equipment. These new machines basically have the same controls and require the same hand eye coordination. Sure beats sitting in a cube dungeon 8 hours a day. I wish I could that sometimes, but I lack those motor skills to even type. But I also love the engineering job I have. At least it civil and I get to work outside at times.

[Irving]

Do you have to join a union to be a welder?

[buffalobo]

Do you have to join a union to be a welder?No but some projects may require a union card.

[Irving]

Thanks. Just curious. I remember posting on here back when I was an agent and wanted to get into a trade. Joining a union pretty much killed that idea for me.