View Full Version : Job Interview: Appropriate Attire?
Bailey Guns
06-25-2019, 19:19
I haven't had a job interview since 1997. I've applied for a low-level state job in Lewiston and have been asked to interview.
I feel like an idiot even asking this question. I've looked around and found differing opinions online about appropriate attire. This is an office job, lots of public contact. The office setting is business/casual. Not shorts and flip flops casual, but maybe nice jeans and polo shirt casual.
I'm thinking I'm just going to wear a nice pair of slacks (something like Dockers) and a nice button-down long sleeve shirt to the interview. Am I way off base here? Should this be a suit/tie kind of thing? It's Lewiston, ID, after all.
I'd like to know what some of you think. Mrs BG seems to think my choice is appropriate for the job/location and she's usually pretty on top of stuff like that.
Batteriesnare
06-25-2019, 19:25
Dress to impress, you'll have plenty of time for casual but one shot at a first impression.
thedave1164
06-25-2019, 19:26
Sounds like you got it covered
I was all set for my first interview in CO, suit, tie, black wing tips. HR called me the day before the interview and asked how I was planning on dressing, I told her, she suggested dockers and a polo shirt, said the people I would be interviewing with might be in shorts, tank tops and sandals. They were.
Got the job too :)
Rucker61
06-25-2019, 19:31
Sounds like you got it covered
I was all set for my first interview in CO, suit, tie, black wing tips. HR called me the day before the interview and asked how I was planning on dressing, I told her, she suggested dockers and a polo shirt, said the people I would be interviewing with might be in shorts, tank tops and sandals. They were.
Got the job too :)
How long have you been with HP?
AirbornePathogen
06-25-2019, 19:38
I would go slacks, dress shirt, and tie personally. Better to overdress a little than underdress.
thedave1164
06-25-2019, 19:39
How long have you been with HP?
That was a dot com, In 2000, HP was in 2004
Zundfolge
06-25-2019, 19:45
I would go slacks, dress shirt, and tie personally. Better to overdress a little than underdress.
QFT
BushMasterBoy
06-25-2019, 19:46
Last time I bought a suit it cost 115 bucks at kohls. Dark grey jacket and matching pants. Wear a white long sleeve shirt and a conservative tie. Dark socks and black shoes. Dress to kill. Just my .02 cents
ChickNorris
06-25-2019, 19:48
I would go slacks, dress shirt, and tie personally. Better to overdress a little than underdress.
This^^^
Though I would wear a blazer rather than a tie & darker slacks not khakis. It's an interview, not the daily business casual, not formal & not golfing.
Good luck.
You only have one chance to make the first impression so why not at least add a tie to your planned outfit.
If you get the job then you can adopt the company business casual approach.
It does zero harm to your candidacy to be the best dressed individual in the room.
Today I was dressed in a pair of tan dress pants, dress shirt, tie, navy blazer. I could quickly dump the blazer as needed and be ok. My interviewers ranged from polo and slacks to dress shirt w/cuff links and dress pants.
I’d definitely add a tie in.
Also, it can’t hurt to ask HR.
Bailey Guns
06-25-2019, 20:23
Also, it can’t hurt to ask HR.
Yeah, it could. I've tried calling the HR dept in Boise. I can't imagine childbirth being more painful. Took half a day to get to the person I needed.
Appreciate the perspective from all of you. I'm leaning towards adding a sport coat and foregoing the tie.
Honestly...a clean pair of jeans and a shirt in MOBU and I'd probably be the best-dressed guy there.
ChickNorris
06-25-2019, 20:25
I think a tie absent a jacket is silly, but that's just me.
So I'll revisit my earlier post & suggest you wear a blazer & a tie.
Just harder to ditch the tie...
Bailey Guns
06-25-2019, 20:27
And here I thought you were squared away. Geez...
ChickNorris
06-25-2019, 20:29
Psstt... blazer & no tie.
Bailey Guns
06-25-2019, 20:31
Now you're just F'ing with me.
It'll be your fault now if I don't get the job. I'll be so stressed over blazer/tie or blazer/no tie I'm sure to bomb the interview.
ChickNorris
06-25-2019, 20:31
Rofl
Blazer no tie, while a casual look, seems inappropriate for an interview vs a tie and no blazer. Why not compromise with a bolo tie? :D
Grant H.
06-25-2019, 20:46
Having been through this "recently", I would suggest you follow the sound advice above.
This is your one shot to impress.
If the place doesn't fit the idea of a suit, then I would go with dark slacks, button down shirt, tie, appropriate socks and dress shoes.
ChickNorris
06-25-2019, 20:48
Dont get me started... i will start critiquing from the spread of the collar & go all the way down to where the fall is on the hem of the pant... I'm more of the 'banker casual' conservative audience when it comes to business attire for men my age & older.
I suspect small town Idaho government office is more traditional & is going to be of like mind.
Regardless, you'll own whatever you wear so wear it.
Call and ask, don’t try to guess. Everything else is a crap shoot.
Little Dutch
06-25-2019, 20:51
Better over dressed than under, but I also don?t expect what I wear to be the deciding factor in an interview. My advice is to dress nice, whatever you?re comfortable in. I pretty much stick to nice suits, but that?s me.
I work with a guy who showed up in a clean colored t-shirt for his interview. He was a good fit for the job.
emiller35
06-25-2019, 20:51
When I used to coach interviewees for our staffing agency I always went with the philosophy of its better to be over dressed then under. It?s easier to make a suit look more casual then most people think. Wearing a patterned or designed shirt or not wearing a tie ?dresses you down? while still being dressed up.
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Little Dutch
06-25-2019, 20:57
When I used to coach interviewees for our staffing agency I always went with the philosophy of its better to be over dressed then under. It?s easier to make a suit look more casual then most people think. Wearing a patterned or designed shirt or not wearing a tie ?dresses you down? while still being dressed up.
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A colored button up under a sport coat is a classy look. Can be paired with a new set of blue jeans and boots in a pinch for a clean business look while being causal.
Bailey Guns
06-25-2019, 20:58
Call and ask, don’t try to guess. Everything else is a crap shoot.
I think this is a solid recommendation. I'm kinda leaning to the whole jacket/tie thing. Better go by the local Goodwill to see what kind of blazers are available. After having lived here almost 4 years the thought of what type of blazers/suits might be hanging out at the local thrift store is pretty frightening. But I'll likely never wear it again. True story...I own two shirts with buttons. And I bought them both today! Mrs BG is just giddy.
You might say I'm not one for following the latest fashion trends.
Little Dutch
06-25-2019, 20:58
Also, good luck. We’re all pulling for you.
Bailey Guns
06-25-2019, 21:02
Wearing a patterned or designed shirt or not wearing a tie ?dresses you down? while still being dressed up.
A colored button up under a sport coat is a classy look.
I agree. I like those approaches.
Bailey Guns
06-25-2019, 21:02
Also, good luck. We’re all pulling for you.
Thanks!
Only thing I would add is a sport coat.
Good luck! Although I doubt you'll need it.
Sounds like you've gotten good advice so far so no further input needed.
I have a couple of good to to stories for interviews if they come up. If you're end asked about difficult customer service issues, I fully expect you to talk about how you got stabbed in the face with a screw driver. As a kicker I'd end the story with how you still got 9's across the board on the survey the perp filled out afterwards, but that's just me. ;)
Good luck
http://roadtripmemories.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/lawyer-court-order-fashion1.jpg
Given the time of year, and the normal office apparel, I'm going with dress shirt, tie, and slacks.
They say if you get nervous at a job interview just imagine yourself naked speaking to everybody. Or is it imagine everyone naked. I don't remember what I was talking about, but I'd suggest wearing nothing but suspenders. You'll have to be creative on the attachment. It cinches the outcome better than anything else, so you don't have to wonder if you got it or not. Nobody likes that kind of suspense. But people like suspenders.
Great-Kazoo
06-26-2019, 00:35
Idaho State job .
Casual jeans, long sleeve plaid shirt, sleeves slightly rolled up off the wrist and a Red Green ball cap.
But since you border WA and Oregon state. Perhaps a, Say NO to Liberal Bias cap.
thedave1164
06-26-2019, 05:50
Forgot to tell you to cover your tats and piercings
1st in person Interview was full blown suit...future boss was wearing shorts. He commented that suits were not required. I assured him he would NEVER see me in a suit again...he hasn't for the past 13 years.
Fentonite
06-26-2019, 07:19
I’m late to the thread, sounds like you’ve gotten what you need. I typically dress nicely for an interview, in a manner which conveys that getting the job is important to me. I don’t think you should dress like the prospective employers do, because you’re not “one of them” yet. Wash your face, comb your hair, and wear a coat and tie. It shows respect, and seriousness about getting the job (which may foretell how you can be expected to perform at the job). Good luck!
Late to the party as well but I would like to mention that I always try to dress appropriately for the job I?m interviewing for.
I have actually seen people who were passed over for basically coming in to an interview overdressed.
For example, if I were interviewing for a position in the oil or gas industry I would likely just wear nice jeans, good shoes or boots, and probably a nice polo shirt. Unless you were applying for a position in upper management, a suit and tie might give the impression that you might not be a good fit.
Office type work and I would think nice slacks and a nice dress shirt should suffice.
BladesNBarrels
06-26-2019, 08:46
I?m late to the thread, sounds like you?ve gotten what you need. I typically dress nicely for an interview, in a manner which conveys that getting the job is important to me. I don?t think you should dress like the prospective employers do, because you?re not ?one of them? yet. Wash your face, comb your hair, and wear a coat and tie. It shows respect, and seriousness about getting the job (which may foretell how you can be expected to perform at the job). Good luck!
I just saw this, so the interview may already be history.
I agree with Fentonite. It is like wood working - you can always remove more material, but you can't put it back.
Same with first impressions. You can always convey you are serious about the job, but you can't replace an impression that you couldn't even dress nice for first interviews.
I also am rooting for you - Good Luck with getting the job!
Scanker19
06-26-2019, 08:55
My rule of thumb is always one level higher than what you’d wear at work, but stop at the tux.
7825878258
You can never over dress, but you can under dress. I suggest wearing a suit, but that's just me.
They say if you get nervous at a job interview just imagine yourself naked speaking to everybody. Or is it imagine everyone naked. I don't remember what I was talking about, but I'd suggest wearing nothing but suspenders. You'll have to be creative on the attachment. It cinches the outcome better than anything else, so you don't have to wonder if you got it or not. Nobody likes that kind of suspense. But people like suspenders.
If one goes with the stirrup version of shirt stays they can just hook them... never mind.
My rule of thumb is always one level higher than what you?d wear at work, but stop at the tux.
[snip]
Stop at tails and that means stop at nothing. Top hat and cane are good accessories.
cableguy11
06-26-2019, 14:09
Tie and a shirt, slacks, haircut and clean shaven. You could also walk into the office and see what the current personnel are wearing..peek in the offices where the management might be.
RblDiver
06-26-2019, 14:22
I think the rule of thumb I'd go by is "Dress 1 level better than the person interviewing you." So, for example, if the office is "business casual," I'd recommend "business formal," suit (or at least a jacket), tie, etc. Of course, if the office were business professional, there's not much to advance to unless you did black/white tie, so in that case still being business pro would be the way to go.
I know that when we're interviewing people, clothing isn't the most important aspect that we look at, but we DO look at it. If you dress like you don't care, then we think (even if somewhat subconsciously) that you don't care, so why should we hire you?
Even if you?re not wearing a suit, make sure your appearance makes you look like you tried to look nice. Ironed shirt and slacks. Clean haircut and shave.
I would wear my Sunday best.
When interviewing, I connect sloppy dress with sloppy work. Dress like you care about getting the job.
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Ok... I'll chime in.
Go through this thread with Mrs BG. Her opinion will matter.
Since you stated this was an indoor/office job, and not a field job, you're likely not going to be hurt by being dressed smartly.
Another thing to consider, based on your maturity/experience/demographic (you get my point) you will be expected to present yourself in a more respectable manner than, shall we say, someone fresh out of their 6th of college with no degree. It's not right, but it's perception.
And that's because they assume those are learned values, not that you are trying to out dress the competition.
Sent from somewhere...
When is the interview?
Did you win?
Grant H.
06-26-2019, 18:49
Better over dressed than under, but I also don?t expect what I wear to be the deciding factor in an interview. My advice is to dress nice, whatever you?re comfortable in. I pretty much stick to nice suits, but that?s me.
I work with a guy who showed up in a clean colored t-shirt for his interview. He was a good fit for the job.
That would be the hope, that clothes don't become the deciding factor, but it certainly can and does. Especially in a situation where two similarly skilled candidates have applied.
Having been involved in the hiring process many times, with a properly written job description, it comes down to perception and presence. Dress is a large part of that.
Grant H.
06-26-2019, 18:50
When is the interview?
Did you win?
Agreed.
We want to know!
A friend of mine recently interviewed for a job where he'd be working remote (from home, tech job, he's always worked remote), never interact with clients except by phone and online. He bought a suit for the interview, got the job. The suit might not have been needed but he wanted to have his bases covered.
Break your rule and go with what Mrs. BG said. You'll at least be right the other 16 hours of each work day.
Bailey Guns
06-26-2019, 22:32
Well...didn't get the job. The panel said it looked like I got dressed by a bunch of hillbillies on a gun forum.
Bailey Guns
06-26-2019, 22:33
[Coffee]
Interview is tomorrow afternoon.
Shoulda held off on the screwdriver story. They were probably worried about the insurance liability of an employee taking out an active shooter barehanded instead of pissing themselves prior to death.
ETA: Just saw your second post. Tell the screwdriver story!
Bailey Guns
06-26-2019, 22:42
If I tell the screwdriver story I'm saying I got all 10s on the post-arrest review...not 9s. But should I ask if they wanna see the scar?
jreifsch80
06-26-2019, 22:58
My advice for a state job interview....
Option 1 Wear a light yellow button up shirt, a brown tweed sport jacket with suede elbow patches, a navy knit neck tie and brown flat front slacks that are a lighter brown than your sport jacket.
Option 2. Starched and stacked wranglers, black cherry or black cowboy boots (leather sole of course) a pressed western shirt and a western cut dress vest.
In my industry (livestock nutritional consulting) my dress clothes are option 2 with either a dress vest or a western cut sport jacket.
GilpinGuy
06-27-2019, 00:00
For the love of all that is holy, don't bring up IKEA during the interview.
I interview LOTS of people in my industry. Those who are dressed very well stand out, it's just a fact.
I had a guy show up to a dealing job in shorts and flip flops years ago. I told him he can't be serious and told him that the interview was cancelled. Moron.
Just dont wear those damn sponge bob square pants pajama pants you wear everywhere.
Bailey Guns
06-27-2019, 18:25
It's over. Typical dress for the office is very business casual. I wore a navy slacks, navy jacket, nice shirt, no tie. The jacket was probably overkill. I was overdressed but it wasn't a big deal. I even joked about stressing over what to wear because I've worn uniforms since 1979 and didn't own any "real" clothes.
Probably the most laid back interview I've ever had. Only two people on the panel...the manager and a supervisor. They were upfront about going off-script for the interview. Apparently the state gives them a list of questions to ask. They ignore the list and conduct the interview more like a normal conversation.
Next step is a secondary interview on 7/16, hiring notification on 7/17. She said if I hadn't heard anything by the 16th I didn't make the cut. So, pretty much it for now. Thanks for all the input. I appreciate the help.
I bet you get it. I hope you do!
I count it as a plus when interviewers ask questions off the script. I've even requested it. Good luck. Put a picture of me up in your cubicle if you get the job.
Awkward...
I hope things work out for ya' BG! Do I need to point out that Mrs. BG was on the money? [Sofa]
Fentonite
06-28-2019, 00:12
I bet you get it. I hope you do!
Ditto.
Bailey Guns
06-28-2019, 06:14
Do I need to point out that Mrs. BG was on the money? [Sofa]
Not really. She pretty much has that covered.
ChickNorris
06-28-2019, 06:27
: )
I forgot to mention the sense of wearing an Eagles jersey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNCdy0hCDnE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2yLAV6bHXY
... I wore a navy slacks, navy jacket, nice shirt, no tie...
Sounds like a crackerjack outfit... [Coffee]
BladesNBarrels
06-28-2019, 08:16
Sounds like a crackerjack outfit... [Coffee]
https://i.imgur.com/xdTsKi4.jpg
It's over. Typical dress for the office is very business casual. I wore a navy slacks, navy jacket, nice shirt, no tie. The jacket was probably overkill. I was overdressed but it wasn't a big deal. I even joked about stressing over what to wear because I've worn uniforms since 1979 and didn't own any "real" clothes.
Probably the most laid back interview I've ever had. Only two people on the panel...the manager and a supervisor. They were upfront about going off-script for the interview. Apparently the state gives them a list of questions to ask. They ignore the list and conduct the interview more like a normal conversation.
Next step is a secondary interview on 7/16, hiring notification on 7/17. She said if I hadn't heard anything by the 16th I didn't make the cut. So, pretty much it for now. Thanks for all the input. I appreciate the help.
If you were the best dressed one in the room, you dressed correctly.
I count it as a plus when interviewers ask questions off the script. I've even requested it. Good luck. Put a picture of me up in your cubicle if you get the job.
When I go off script it is because:
I am interested in the candidate
or
I think they have BSed something and I will pull it out.
If it is the latter, it will be much shorter off script.
If the person is a "no" I wont waste more time than the script
If I think they they are BSing but could also be good, 1st see if they are BSing before continuing. It is normally easy. Give them a topic I know is completely false but they feel compelled to know it. Instead say "I dont know" or "that cannot be done" etc, they continue on...
If the interview goes a while, I am interested.
I cringe at what passes for interviews these days. With an interview like that, if you struck common ground and felt that they liked you, then you?re probably in the running. If so, good for you.
A good interviewer puts people at ease so that they are more open with their answers. Being that they skipped interview scripts, I wouldn?t give them that much credit. A good interview script protects the interviewer and the agency from discrimination claims, uncovers more relevant knowledge of the candidate, and reduces the effects of bias.
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Bailey Guns
06-28-2019, 19:10
I think they didn't use the canned questions because they come from Boise. It's one of those situations where what works in Boise doesn't necessarily work in the more rural parts of the state. And she even said the state questions were called "suggestions". Frankly, I think that's probably a sign that she knows better how to run her office in Lewiston than bureaucrats in Boise do.
Grant H.
06-28-2019, 19:51
I cringe at what passes for interviews these days. With an interview like that, if you struck common ground and felt that they liked you, then you?re probably in the running. If so, good for you.
A good interviewer puts people at ease so that they are more open with their answers. Being that they skipped interview scripts, I wouldn?t give them that much credit. A good interview script protects the interviewer and the agency from discrimination claims, uncovers more relevant knowledge of the candidate, and reduces the effects of bias.
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It depends entirely on what position is being hired for.
In basic roles, yes, scripts are generally useful. In anything more advanced, more technical, etc, a script will never work.
I would agree with BG in that a decent manager may very have skipped BS script questions in order to get a better understanding of the folks in the area that she is filling from.
It's a job interview. Wear the best you have.
-John
In basic roles, yes, scripts are generally useful. In anything more advanced, more technical, etc, a script will never work.
The script has to be tailored to the role, I agree. I hire for advanced technical positions and our scripts do a great job of weeding out people who don?t have the right qualifications. Anyone can tell you the right answer to a question. I want specific examples with thought process, actions, and outcomes.
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The script has to be tailored to the role, I agree. I hire for advanced technical positions and our scripts do a great job of weeding out people who don?t have the right qualifications. Anyone can tell you the right answer to a question. I want specific examples with thought process, actions, and outcomes.
That sounds familiar. We were hiring another desktop engineer. Our primary management tool is Microsoft System Center Configuration Manager (SCCM). The candidate said they had SCCM experience, but we weren't getting that vibe. We asked him, "You listed SCCM experience on your resume. What is SCCM the abbreviation for?" He made up a name. Somebody wasn't honest on their resume, so why should we trust them about anything?
In the IT world, making stuff up is dangerous. Admitting that you don't know and making the effort to educate yourself is the correct answer. It is not a weakness.
If they do seem like they know their stuff, we ask for them to whiteboard how they would address a certain scenario. It can tell you a lot about how someone analyzes, breaks down and processes the information.
I'm obviously way late to the party but for future reference in case anyone wants it, I have done a lot of interviews between school and work. I've competed against 500 people for school acceptance and against about 5 to 10 and against just 1 other person. I've been in low level interviews and management interviews. Government interviews and corporate interviews. I have also hired around 15 to 20 people myself. I would ALWAYS recommend dressing to the nine unless you know for certainty they're hipsters that will think you are too uptight. If any doubt, wear the best you have. It's never failed me and the likelihood of someone thinking you are over dressed vs under dressed is unbelievably small. I've hired for six figure jobs and 12 an hour jobs. I wouldnt think someone was over dressed for the 12 an hour job in a full on suit. In fact I would appreciate how serious they are taking it.
That sounds familiar. We were hiring another desktop engineer. Our primary management tool is Microsoft System Center Configuration Manager (SCCM). The candidate said they had SCCM experience, but we weren't getting that vibe. We asked him, "You listed SCCM experience on your resume. What is SCCM the abbreviation for?" He made up a name. Somebody wasn't honest on their resume, so why should we trust them about anything?
In the IT world, making stuff up is dangerous. Admitting that you don't know and making the effort to educate yourself is the correct answer. It is not a weakness.
If they do seem like they know their stuff, we ask for them to whiteboard how they would address a certain scenario. It can tell you a lot about how someone analyzes, breaks down and processes the information.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx4NGQorzhM
But in all seriousness, I have found in a lot of cases that I use products everyday and refer to their acronyms without knowing what those acronyms mean, or at least forgetting (cus I had to know for CCNA Security).
Examples: Cisco's ACS and ISE.
I add MAC addresses, import devices to the systems and needed Identity Groups (both individually and in batches through a CSV file), troubleshoot authentication rejections, create logical seal breaks in ACS for RADIUS and TACACS+, etc. I can walk a monkey through doing any of that, but please don't ask me what ISE means cus I don't care unless I need to care, and then I'll Google it. [facepalm]
However, I know a guy who interviewed for a TS/SCI cleared position with an Alphabet for SCCM admin. His entire interview consisted of him saying, "I don't know." He got the job because he had the clearance. Easier to teach someone a system than get them a TS. lol
ChadAmberg
06-29-2019, 20:15
Last interview I dressed khakis, button up shirt, with a tie and sport jacket. The folks interviewing me were the shorts, jeans, tshirt level, but that's fine. I then met with a higher up that was dressed nicer, and you could tell she appreciated I dressed nicely.
I was thinking about it and my last job I didn't even interview, just started working. The one before that I pestered the local manager until he had me meet him at a Mexican food restaurant for lunch.
GilpinGuy
06-30-2019, 22:45
I was thinking about it and my last job I didn't even interview, just started working. The one before that I pestered the local manager until he had me meet him at a Mexican food restaurant for lunch.
That means something. Maybe word of mouth from an old coworker/networking thing, or they were desperate for people. No offense if it was the latter. Good people get hired that way.
For my current gig, I never applied or even knew the position was open. I got a call and was asked "Would you be interested in running this poker room?" from a former superior who obviously knew I was a stellar candidate. [Flower]
Aloha_Shooter
07-02-2019, 11:55
I was going to agree with the people who said one step above the people doing the interview and figured a dress shirt, slacks and tie would work but sounds like things went well.
The last 3 times I had interviews it was with people who already knew me well (once was a position for a site commander with a colonel who I'd already worked for the previous 2 years, the second and third were with people I'd known for 9-20+ years) so the interviews were somewhat comical. The colonel asked me if I had anything to say about my leadership style and I just said he'd seen my leadership in other situations for a couple years so I didn't think so but would be happy to answer any questions he had about decisions I'd made or situations that had come up). The second time, was more of a chat and the third time, they seemed pretty excited until the point they asked why I wanted the position and I said I really didn't but thought they needed some more candidates to pick from. I got the job the first two time but not the last. ;-)
I had an interview today and like you it’s been years. I wore a suit and tie. After introducing himself the PM actually thanked me for wearing a suit and putting effort into it.
BladesNBarrels
07-03-2019, 08:29
I had an interview today and like you it’s been years. I wore a suit and tie. After introducing himself the PM actually thanked me for wearing a suit and putting effort into it.
Dang, an interview with the Prime Minister - you applying for a Cabinet Minister position?
DocMedic
07-03-2019, 09:21
This is just my opinion and shouldn't be held with any authority but in the past 3 months I've probably interviewed over 50 people. How someone dress is really on the bottom of my list of what I care for, what I'm looking for is 1 are they bullshitting me with their experience that they posted on their resume, and 2, are they able to critically think through the questions that I'm asking and not just give me a candid response. The ones that can hold my interest for more then one minute are usually the ones that get hired on.
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