Rifle OAL Question

[Skip]

(If this is the wrong place, please move)

I am building a Faxon ARAK-21 and do not want it to be an NFA item. So far, I've had some issues with the upper so I'm stalled but working on it with Faxon (longer story). I am wanting to add a Law Tactical folder which would include a standard AR-15 buffer tube and Magpul stock.

Specs...

16" barrel
2" muzzle break (not pinned)
estimated 26.5" OAL while folded including unpinned break
estimated 34.5" unfolded, 38" unfolded with stock fully extended including unpinned break


ATF has a note about fully extending collapsible stocks for OAL measurement of rifles. Nothing I can find on folding stocks (measured folded/unfolded). Pinning the break obviously matters for barrel measurement but I am already at 16" without the break. I want to make sure I don't fall under the 26" OAL rule.

The ARAK can fire while folded with the Law Tactical folder since there is no BCG travel into the buffer.

Should I get the break pinned?


With these estimates, if the break were removed, and the stock folded, it would be 24.5". With the break in place I'm at 26.5".

My initial thinking was Faxon put the 2" brake on to satisfy OAL while folded with a Law folder but then I'm not sure I'm solid in my understanding of measuring rifle OAL.

For visualization, it would look like this...

http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/44437-2/ARAK21_folded_2911web.jpg

[whitewalrus]

OAL should be measured with the stock folded out - rifles are designed to be shoulder fired.

[brutal]

OAL should be measured with the stock folded out - rifles are designed to be shoulder fired.

Yes, for rifle.

For pistol, as I understand, the ATF recently posted a letter stating the opposite for any PISTOL that has a brace. Must be measured collapsed (end of buffer) or folded (end of receiver/folding mount).

https://blog.princelaw.com/2019/07/05/atf-rescinds-prior-methods-to-measure-a-firearms-overall-length-when-equipped-with-a-stabilizing-brace/

[DenverGP]

Because a standard AR pistol can't fire with the buffer tube folded, I'd think the measurement would be the end of the buffer tube.

But I'd still remove any VFG from an AR pistol with a folding buffer tube just in case (since common sense and ATF don't go together)






Yes, for rifle.

For pistol, as I understand, the ATF recently posted a letter stating the opposite for any PISTOL that has a brace. Must be measured collapsed (end of buffer) or folded (end of receiver/folding mount).

https://blog.princelaw.com/2019/07/05/atf-rescinds-prior-methods-to-measure-a-firearms-overall-length-when-equipped-with-a-stabilizing-brace/

[Skip]

Thank guys.


Yes, for rifle.

For pistol, as I understand, the ATF recently posted a letter stating the opposite for any PISTOL that has a brace. Must be measured collapsed (end of buffer) or folded (end of receiver/folding mount).

https://blog.princelaw.com/2019/07/05/atf-rescinds-prior-methods-to-measure-a-firearms-overall-length-when-equipped-with-a-stabilizing-brace/

Yes, this is what got the noodle going and caused me to take out my measuring tape and second guess everything.

I'm never going to put any barrel < 16" on this upper and don't like VFGs so I'm safe there. Lower was bought as a rifle and will always be a rifle.

[brutal]

Because a standard AR pistol can't fire with the buffer tube folded, I'd think the measurement would be the end of the buffer tube.

But I'd still remove any VFG from an AR pistol with a folding buffer tube just in case (since common sense and ATF don't go together)

LAW Tactical will fire one shot when folded.

[Skip]

LAW Tactical will fire one shot when folded.

ARAK will fire as a semi auto with a folded Law.

[def90]

16 inch barrel, doesnt that make it a rifle in the first palce?

[ray1970]

16 inch barrel, doesnt that make it a rifle in the first palce?

Nope.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190706/e09485248c11db98d8809754c4149c1b.jpg

[brutal]

Nope.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190706/e09485248c11db98d8809754c4149c1b.jpg

I keep expecting to see one of those posted with a BANG flag hanging out of the barrel.

[kidicarus13]

You must have missed Post a Picture of Your Latesr Purchase post #13728

[Skip]

Nope.

[snip]

You must have strong wrists. ;)

---

I finally got around to reading the whole letter from SA Friday's post in Legislation...

https://www.ar-15.co/threads/174648-ATF-has-re-interpreted-how-to-measure-(AR)-pistol-OAL-in-reference-to-AOW

https://imgur.com/z8BSxmz.jpg


The article wasn't clear but this paragraph is easy enough for me to interpret. Like whitewalrus said, a rifle is designed to be fired from the shoulder and this one is. Although it will fire while collapsed, like many other folding stocked rifles, that is not the design.

I think for me to get in trouble the ATF would have to say the muzzle device is excluded from OAL AND this gun is not designed to be fired from the shoulder which would be hard since the gun will have a Magpul stock.

Or they could just arbitrarily change the rules on me.

I guess I'll continue with my plans. I really didn't want to pin that break. It's decent but I might want something else some day.

[CS1983]

Just do whatever you want, and if some range nazi wants to see your tax stamp, show them the American flag tattooed on your weenie.

[Wulf202]

There's a separate letter saying you have to measure with the smallest configuration that it can be fired from flat against a wall

[Irving]

Does one shot count? You can fire a single round without a buffer tube at all I imagine.

[brutal]

There's a separate letter saying you have to measure with the smallest configuration that it can be fired from flat against a wall

Please post it up.

That's not how OAL is measured when doing a Form 1.

[Skip]

Yes, please post.

From the wall, I'm fine with my estimates as long as the muzzle device isn't removed. That's where I'm fuzzy. But they could remove any part of a firearm and jam anyone up using that same logic.

The ARAK w/Law can fire folded as a semi-auto. So it can be fired without being on the shoulder but is intended to be fired from the shoulder. I suppose it is like any rifle that could hypothetically be fired in a number ways.

And this is no different from other designs, like the Sig 556 that was available commercially for a couple decades, or folding AKs which I've seen around forever. I'm just not 100% on the specs of those guns other than > 26" unfolded and barrel > 16".

[Wulf202]

Please post it up.

That's not how OAL is measured when doing a Form 1.

I was wrong.

So upon further research that was a comment by an agent about the standard practice of measuring (according to one guy a who's likely retired by now) It was not in a letter but in reference to a letter.


So I looked more for clarification
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-2/download
Page 8 lists a specific example for a folding stock measuring and the aol includes the stock as they say if the folding stock is removed it would not meet the 26" minimum

Another specific example cited by many is the uzi equipped with a 16" barrel and a folding stock is sold commercially and has an aol of 24" folded and able to fire.

Hopefully that makes it clear and sorry for muddying the thread

[SA Friday]

You’re fine. 16” barrel and its measured with the stock locked open. Done.

[Skip]

I was wrong.

So upon further research that was a comment by an agent about the standard practice of measuring (according to one guy a who's likely retired by now) It was not in a letter but in reference to a letter.


So I looked more for clarification
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-2/download
Page 8 lists a specific example for a folding stock measuring and the aol includes the stock as they say if the folding stock is removed it would not meet the 26" minimum

Another specific example cited by many is the uzi equipped with a 16" barrel and a folding stock is sold commercially and has an aol of 24" folded and able to fire.

Hopefully that makes it clear and sorry for muddying the thread

Thanks for that link. I think it confirms that I should be okay. But it sucks sweating such stupid stuff.

[Circuits]

Thanks for that link. I think it confirms that I should be okay. But it sucks sweating such stupid stuff.
It is written that fools rush in where wise men fear to tread - so ignorance is, or is an important component of, bliss.

[Skip]

Well I built it!

And in the meantime I've got my issue sorted but I'm little put off by Faxon's answer. They claim I need to pull a firing pin spring when using hard primer milspec ammo and replace it for commercial ammo. They said there's a risk of slam fire using commercial ammo without the spring.

None of this is in the manual or advised when I bought the upper.

That's easy enough to do, but the idea of having a gun that could slamfire with the right ammo/missing that little spring worries me.

[ray1970]

Hmm. I?ve never had any spring on any of my AR firing pins. Ever. And I?ve never had a slam fire. Ever. I don?t think there?s enough mass in the firing pin to set off a primer without a hammer strike.

[Skip]

Hmm. I?ve never had any spring on any of my AR firing pins. Ever. And I?ve never had a slam fire. Ever. I don?t think there?s enough mass in the firing pin to set off a primer without a hammer strike.

I want to challenge with this and try to get more info.

But in looking at the bolt carrier (which is totally different on the ARAK-21), there is a lot more firing pin travel in the carrier. I'm not sure if that means it's possible or not. Firing pin looks like a standard AR pin/weight.

Maybe it's on me to take some various commercial ammo out next time and see if I can make it happen? Without posting results? ;)

But I can't get that gun to run with the spring in using M855 or M193.

[ray1970]

My bad. I didn?t realize this was a non-standard platform. Had to look it up. It?s one of those things like if an AK and an AR had a baby.

[SideShow Bob]

Hmm. I?ve never had any spring on any of my AR firing pins. Ever. And I?ve never had a slam fire. Ever. I don?t think there?s enough mass in the firing pin to set off a primer without a hammer strike.

Do you have an AR-10 ? They (my Armalites) do.