View Full Version : Welp 36 is down and out
https://www.denverpost.com/2019/07/14/us-36-stretch-collapses/
Well, I want to laugh or make jokes, but what an unfortunate mess! Didn't they use engineered soil? Did the clay just slip out between the layers? Hope that private, non-US, company that owns that road (Plenary Group) is warming up their check books and getting all hands on deck.
On another note, is that really the best/only picture the Denver Post could come up with?
OtterbatHellcat
07-14-2019, 22:29
Local news showed that, bummer for folks that have to go around that to get to work this week. Might be fixed by Wednesday the bit said.
I'm not going to try to drive it any time soon. Driving to Broomfield is bad enough as it is.
Taking I-25 and then Highway 7 into Boulder isn't terrible....when 36 is available.
I stand by my previous statement.
I stand by my previous statement.
Going across the city sucks no matter what. I would rather drive to Fort Collins for work than the Tech Center, and it's twice the distance!
Great-Kazoo
07-14-2019, 23:57
Going across the city sucks no matter what. I would rather drive to Fort Collins for work than the Tech Center, and it's twice the distance!
I did S. Littleton to ft fun for 2 years, 5 days a week, then back home. Doesn't matter where you have to drive the state is never going to widen the roads, or get mass transit up before the next tsunami over takes it.
Well, I want to laugh or make jokes, but what an unfortunate mess! Didn't they use engineered soil? Did the clay just slip out between the layers? Hope that private, non-US, company that owns that road (Plenary Group) is warming up their check books and getting all hands on deck.
On another note, is that really the best/only picture the Denver Post could come up with?
I'm sure it was undercompacted soil built hastily. This was built at a time CDOT was making a change to address this issue. It may have been built with the older requirement. I am sure the soils engineers in my office have been busy all weekend.
At 1sr when I heard cracked concrete, I thought the heat and moisture caused the concrete to thermally expand and buckle.
Similar but smaller soil failure have occurred at I25 & I225 tunnel and on I25 between Colorado and University. COSMIX in Colorado Springs is another example of failed soil.
All these projects were build under Design-Build contracts in haste. CDOT has little control and say in QA. QA failures can still be accepted through "value engineering" buy the designer, who is also the builder. Ultimate Jerry rigging boondoggle. Cant wait to see what C470 and I70 bring after completion.
But I thought some here sabotaged the road to keep crazy in boulder.
Eh. Any Jeep or Subaru should easily handle a road like that. No real need to close it.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190715/ceb562ea5cc7107a738e936ceab84972.jpg
It continues to get worse. They haven't even begun to repair it.
Who pays? Drivers/Taxpayers will continue to pay. I doubt the contractor will be held accountable.
what a mess. The commuters that use that daily will also be in a mess of traffic when they all detour the same way. That is going to take some time to fix, even with crews working 24/7.
The roadway continues to slide. The retaining wall that is supposed to contain the soil under the roadway is bowing dangerously and some of the concrete slabs have fallen off. Won't surprise me if that retaining wall blows out.
How long before the westbound side starts to fail?
They're reporting that it's OK and hasn't moved. If the retaining wall does fail in a significant way, who knows if that will be a problem as it becomes unsupported?
I would also be concerned about the location where the retaining wall is blowing out as it's also a support structure for the overpass over the railroad tracks.
BPTactical
07-15-2019, 08:04
I'm sure it was undercompacted soil built hastily. This was built at a time CDOT was making a change to address this issue. It may have been built with the older requirement. I am sure the soils engineers in my office have been busy all weekend.
At 1sr when I heard cracked concrete, I thought the heat and moisture caused the concrete to thermally expand and buckle.
Similar but smaller soil failure have occurred at I25 & I225 tunnel and on I25 between Colorado and University. COSMIX in Colorado Springs is another example of failed soil.
All these projects were build under Design-Build contracts in haste. CDOT has little control and say in QA. QA failures can still be accepted through "value engineering" buy the designer, who is also the builder. Ultimate Jerry rigging boondoggle. Cant wait to see what C470 and I70 bring after completion.
A little history on that area:
In 1985 two trains collided at a railroad underpass right near there and caught fire, destroying the bridge. The bridge had to be rebuilt and was done so very hastily.
https://www.9news.com/article/news/local/when-colorado-lost-a-major-overpass/427366033
When US36 was widened in the mid 90's I believe quite a bit of fill was brought in from the dredging of Hidden Lake and Sloans lake, I know for a fact this soil was used on I-76 which explains why it is a roller coaster ride from Federal east.
Quality fill material.
Groundwater in the area of the recent failure is also present.
Going across the city sucks no matter what. I would rather drive to Fort Collins for work than the Tech Center, and it's twice the distance!
I commute from centennial to Broomfield, not today though.
newracer
07-15-2019, 11:06
It was reported it is falling 1" per hour.
I heard this morning that the fact that it's still moving is delaying any action on remediation. It would almost be better if it just collapsed, because they could then safely fix it. As it is, getting close to the bowing retaining wall is too dangerous.
[ROFL2] (only because no one was hurt)
If all the roads into Boulder would fail maybe we could right this ship?
ChickNorris
07-15-2019, 12:42
FIM-92
Sorted.
FIM-92
Sorted.
I like yer style.
At 1st it was thought a shear slope failure was occurring at the toe. You may gave noticed crew hauling in dirt and placing it next to the wall. This was extra dead weight to keep the toe from pivoting.
But it's a not a shear slope failure alone. The wall was sinking, and the initial fix plan would not have worked. The soil is overloaded and collapsing from the extra height of the new wall.
This will be a long fix. Complete reconstruction. They are not worried about blame now, so some lawyers will be getting rich.
The toll company will loose 2-3 months of tolls, and reconstruction costs will need to be allocated to the responsible party. The toll company may be 100% responsible.
Fun, fun.
That's what boulder gets for giving us polis
At 1st it was thought a shear slope failure was occurring at the toe. You may gave noticed crew hauling in dirt and placing it next to the wall. This was extra dead weight to keep the toe from pivoting.
But it's a not a shear slope failure alone. The wall was sinking, and the initial fix plan would not have worked. The soil is overloaded and collapsing from the extra height of the new wall.
This will be a long fix. Complete reconstruction. They are not worried about blame now, so some lawyers will be getting rich.
The toll company will loose 2-3 months of tolls, and reconstruction costs will need to be allocated to the responsible party. The toll company may be 100% responsible.
Fun, fun.
That's what boulder gets for giving us polis
Thanks for the details.
I hope the responsible party and the congresscritter(s) they bought go down.
BPTactical
07-15-2019, 19:13
At 1st it was thought a shear slope failure was occurring at the toe. You may gave noticed crew hauling in dirt and placing it next to the wall. This was extra dead weight to keep the toe from pivoting.
But it's a not a shear slope failure alone. The wall was sinking, and the initial fix plan would not have worked. The soil is overloaded and collapsing from the extra height of the new wall.
This will be a long fix. Complete reconstruction. They are not worried about blame now, so some lawyers will be getting rich.
The toll company will loose 2-3 months of tolls, and reconstruction costs will need to be allocated to the responsible party. The toll company may be 100% responsible.
Fun, fun.
That's what boulder gets for giving us polis
See my earlier post regarding groundwater.
When 36 was just 2 lanes of bituminous pavement in each direction CDOT Maintenance battled pavement issues in that area due to groundwater.
But the Engineers never listen to those stupid old Maintenance guys...they dont know nothin...
Funny thing, that lake on the west side of this issue was always a year round lake. It seemed to me that after CDork came in with all the new construction in 2012ish it went to mostly dry except in the spring.
BPTactical
07-15-2019, 19:19
Sorry, duplicate post
See my earlier post regarding groundwater.
When 36 was just 2 lanes of bituminous pavement in each direction CDOT Maintenance battled pavement issues in that area due to groundwater.
But the Engineers never listen to those stupid old Maintenance guys...they dont know nothin...
Funny thing, that lake on the west side of this issue was always a year round lake. It seemed to me that after CDork came in with all the new construction in 2012ish it went to mostly dry except in the spring.
Have friends very close to the area on the west side of 36 and south that have cattails growing in one corner of the property always been very wet
This is a pretty monumental failure of a major roadway system.
The whole 270-36 diagonal seems to have problems.
-John
I'm reading conflicting info on this but seem to recall Hick being really resistant to sharing the details of this deal.
CDOT may have to reimburse tolls during emergency closure of US 36
https://www.9news.com/article/news/local/next/cdot-may-have-to-reimburse-tolls-during-emergency-closure-of-us-36/73-c173956c-5beb-486a-8516-22fbe26ae3df
Plenary Roads Denver, the private company that paid for, designed and constructed half of U.S. 36, currently is under a 50-year contract with the state to collect tolls in an express lane that runs the entire length of highway. The company is also responsible for maintenance and rehabilitation of the roadway, under that contract.
[snip]
Under its contract with CDOT, Plenary can seek reimbursement of average toll revenue if the toll lanes have been temporarily suspended for more than 12 hours. CDOT couldn’t provide an estimate of an average day’s revenue in tolls by the time this article was published.
The company’s spokesman said it was too early to say whether Plenary would seek that sort of reimbursement.
CDOT’s liability for lost toll revenue may all be a semantics issue.
“It appears how US 36 is closed matters,” said Danny Katz, state director of Colorado Public Research Interest Group, COPIRG, who analyzed the initial contract released by CDOT in 2014.
Katz said the contract doesn’t require reimbursement if the lanes are “temporarily ordered to be closed” by law enforcement, a semantic difference that will likely be key as both sides decide financial responsibility for the problem.
Katz INAL AFAIK. The initial closure might be LE mandated (safety) but not the days/weeks/months of rebuilding. This could all be left up to the lawyers (settlement) and I have no idea the scale of this (thousand, millions, ???).
For the state to privatize any portion of a roadway and accept any liability when tolls can't be collected is short bus stupid. Who else gets this kind of deal?
I'm reading conflicting info on this but seem to recall Hick being really resistant to sharing the details of this deal.
CDOT may have to reimburse tolls during emergency closure of US 36
https://www.9news.com/article/news/local/next/cdot-may-have-to-reimburse-tolls-during-emergency-closure-of-us-36/73-c173956c-5beb-486a-8516-22fbe26ae3df
Katz INAL AFAIK. The initial closure might be LE mandated (safety) but not the days/weeks/months of rebuilding. This could all be left up to the lawyers (settlement) and I have no idea the scale of this (thousand, millions, ???).
For the state to privatize any portion of a roadway and accept any liability when tolls can't be collected is short bus stupid. Who else gets this kind of deal?
I also read that CDOT is footing the bill for the repair.
For the state to privatize any portion of a roadway and accept any liability when tolls can't be collected is short bus stupid. Who else gets this kind of deal?
That doesn't seem that uncommon for contracts. I'd don't think any of my contracts have that kind of wording, but they might. I'd have to check.
That doesn't seem that uncommon for contracts. I'd don't think any of my contracts have that kind of wording, but they might. I'd have to check.
I'm saying privatized.
If the road was not privatized, then this would be fine. If I'm a state vendor and you prevent me from doing my job, I'm still getting paid. But if I have a stake in the thing generating the revenue, then I need to make sure I get paid.
I'm saying privatized.
If the road was not privatized, then this would be fine. If I'm a state vendor and you prevent me from doing my job, I'm still getting paid. But if I have a stake in the thing generating the revenue, then I need to make sure I get paid.
I don't understand were you're going. Of course privatized. If you invest in something, your investment partners need to have the responsibility of keeping your investment up and running. I'm looking at this through a pretty narrow focus of what I do, but I can see the parallels. I wish I had more experience with larger privatization projects in which to discuss this, but it doesn't seem unusual to me.
I don't understand were you're going. Of course privatized. If you invest in something, your investment partners need to have the responsibility of keeping your investment up and running. I'm looking at this through a pretty narrow focus of what I do, but I can see the parallels. I wish I had more experience with larger privatization projects in which to discuss this, but it doesn't seem unusual to me.
I'll restate...
The company is also responsible for maintenance and rehabilitation of the roadway, under that contract.
Why should the state have any liability for lost toll revenue to the private company?
If the state took an action that caused lost revenue, I get it.
If the roadway maintenance is the responsibility of the state, I get it. (still a shitty deal for taxpayers, but I get it)
The taxpayer is assuming the liability of lost revenue for an asset that is the responsibility of the company.
Okay, I'm on board. I'm in agreement that I don't understand where the state is liable here, especially since the private company was involved in the construction to boot.
It's called corruption. Private company gets a sweet deal for 50 years, the terms of which are effectively secret, to collect tolls on a road that was built by a "public-private partnership". They are nominally responsible for maintenance, but when something goes wrong, those unpublished contract provisions kick in to ensure they get their money, regardless of their responsibility to rectify the fault. Essentially, they deny responsibility for the repair, as it's not "maintenance", and continue to profit at the taxpayer's expense. Not to mention, the Boulder Turnpike was already paid for once by tolls, and the tollbooths removed, one of very few cases where that actually happened.
Not to mention, the Boulder Turnpike was already paid for once by tolls, and the tollbooths removed, one of very few cases where that actually happened.
The ONLY case where that has ever happened in the US, from what I was told.
Okay, I'm on board. I'm in agreement that I don't understand where the state is liable here, especially since the private company was involved in the construction to boot.
It makes no sense. It's like the company needed to be guaranteed revenue no matter what, even for factors under their control.
It's called corruption. Private company gets a sweet deal for 50 years, the terms of which are effectively secret, to collect tolls on a road that was built by a "public-private partnership". They are nominally responsible for maintenance, but when something goes wrong, those unpublished contract provisions kick in to ensure they get their money, regardless of their responsibility to rectify the fault. Essentially, they deny responsibility for the repair, as it's not "maintenance", and continue to profit at the taxpayer's expense. Not to mention, the Boulder Turnpike was already paid for once by tolls, and the tollbooths removed, one of very few cases where that actually happened.
I'm starting to get more interested in who Plenary Group is. They have a "Plenary Roads Denver" and a website...
https://plenaryroadsdenver.com/
Only contacts are a service center and PR guy. No office in Denver.
SoS has two entities in good standing. Both filed through a local attorney in Denver with principal office listed in LA (CA). So they appear to have no business presence in CO but didn't opt to file as a foreign entity.
The Group website has their management team/leadership...
https://plenarygroup.com/
With a page on 36...
https://plenarygroup.com/projects/north-america/us-36-express-lanes
The operating and maintenance contract is for 50 years which commenced following construction completion in early 2016. The partnership between Plenary Group and CDOT will see the delivery of an efficient, well-maintained multimodal transportation corridor 20 years sooner than originally planned.
It sounds like they come in with capital to displace the mismanaged state funds to complete the project and are then given a stake in the revenue. All of which should be infuriating to taxpayers who aren't relieved of any financial burden and apparently have to guarantee the company's RoI.
Not surprising Hick didn't want to talk about this. And I wonder about the ties to Sr. leadership.
Just imagine what a dysfunctional and corrupt government would do...and you're probably closer to reality than you know.
And here I was just bitching about my commute. You guys rock, seriously I mean that.
My understanding is that the part of the road that failed was designed and built by CDOT on a contract prior to the contract that leased the road for 50 years. Not sure if a CDOT engineer or consultant engineer designed the structure. CDOT does not have warranties on projects, so the contractor that built the structure is off the hook. CDOT tested, inspected and accepted the work of that contractor.
This is why CDOT will be paying for the repairs and reimbursing the toll company for lost revenue. CDOT leased them a defective structure.
No conspiracies, no corruption, just incompetence somewhere in the design, building or inspection of that structure.
This is why CDOT will be paying for the repairs and reimbursing the toll company for lost revenue. CDOT leased them a defective structure.
No conspiracies, no corruption, just incompetence somewhere in the design, building or inspection of that structure.
"CDOT" doesn't pay, the taxpayers do. Way to protect the taxpayers, CDOT. Winning!
I know, I know, but I say CDOT so much it just comes out naturally.
My understanding is that the part of the road that failed was designed and built by CDOT on a contract prior to the contract that leased the road for 50 years. Not sure if a CDOT engineer or consultant engineer designed the structure. CDOT does not have warranties on projects, so the contractor that built the structure is off the hook. CDOT tested, inspected and accepted the work of that contractor.
This is why CDOT will be paying for the repairs and reimbursing the toll company for lost revenue. CDOT leased them a defective structure.
No conspiracies, no corruption, just incompetence somewhere in the design, building or inspection of that structure.
Thank you for clarifying.
BPTactical
07-16-2019, 21:26
You know, CDOT's less than transparent handling of the 36 privatization along with the way this state minimized and disregarded its constituents during the 2012 legislative session were the main factors behind my taking early retirement from "The DOT" in '13.
I just couldn't stomach the way this state was conducting business.
I predict Boulder will be getting rail service in the very near future. Open up your wallets, Jared is hungry.
"No rail transit options exist between Boulder and Denver, though tracks are in place. Similarly, no rail alternative to highway vehicle travel exists between Denver and Colorado Springs. Gov. Jared Polis has said he favors creation of better alternatives to vehicle travel as the state’s population grows."
You know, CDOT's less than transparent handling of the 36 privatization along with the way this state minimized and disregarded its constituents during the 2012 legislative session were the main factors behind my taking early retirement from "The DOT" in '13.
I just couldn't stomach the way this state was conducting business.
Wise.
This isn't true privatization the more I look into it, it seems closer to Corporatism, where a select group gets the profit and the taxpayer gets the risk/losses. I doubt very much the general public understands these deals other than they are being charged to be able to use roadways that they've paid to build (for generations now).
Oh sure, it's just the "express lane," but we all know what that means and how it impacts traffic.
Very different from E-470 but branded the same for the public with ExpressToll.
The only change I would support to TABOR would be to consider "fees" and "tolls" as taxes if they are coming from gov or gov contractors.
It brings me great joy to use the built-in loop hole to enjoy free toll lane usage on 36 especially.
It will cost $20 million to fix massive hole in US 36 (https://www.9news.com/article/news/local/next/it-will-cost-20-million-to-fix-massive-hole-in-us-36/73-4102cf24-00f7-424b-9c62-931eecbb716b)
I predict Boulder will be getting rail service in the very near future. Open up your wallets, Jared is hungry.
"No rail transit options exist between Boulder and Denver, though tracks are in place. Similarly, no rail alternative to highway vehicle travel exists between Denver and Colorado Springs. Gov. Jared Polis has said he favors creation of better alternatives to vehicle travel as the state?s population grows."
Boulder has been paying increased taxes to fund the B line, which CDOT then cancelled. Boulder continues to pay those, despite not getting the transport they were promised when they voted to accept the tax hike.
Cdot did not cancel b line, nor does it build rail. RTD does
I doubt boulder will be getting rail anytime soon.
Okay, wrong department, but the point stands. They've been paying extra taxes to fund a service that was then cancelled.
I had to be in Boulder yesterday morning and seemed to make it on time. The most frustrating part was fighting with Google maps the whole time to get a different route, then once I got it, declining the "faster" route it kept trying to give me. There wasn't too much traffic either, as in it didn't seem like one thousand other cars were doing the same thing.
I always wondered if the Google maps system is currently smart enough to disseminate traffic along slightly different routes that are similar in time/distance just to avoid large back-ups.
I can get to Boulder ten different ways without taking 36 and I doubt there?s more than a fifteen minute difference no matter which way I go.
Just for the fun factor they should just cut out that section of 36 and make ramps on either side and make it a Dukes of Hazard type jump. Just make sure to post a minimum speed limit so people will have enough momentum to clear the gap. It would also be a cool way to rid the world of a lot of inattentive drivers who disregard the minimum speed.
What do you have against Unimogs?
They could leave the road as is and just use the repair money and buy everyone in Boulder a Unimog.
They could leave the road as is and just use the repair money and buy everyone in Boulder a Unimog.
Oh I want a 'mog, that would be fun.
I like all roads to boulder to collapse and shut that place down. Then they can be enlightened.
Been driving 36 all week, no faster/slower than usual.
Been driving 36 all week, no faster/slower than usual.
That's a raving endorsement for how the toll lanes will improve traffic flow. [Sarcasm2]
Build that wall! Build that wall! Build that wall! Build that wall! Build that wall! Build that wall!...
I thought it was closed all the way and have been avoiding. No wonder alternate routes weren't so crowded.
SideShow Bob
07-20-2019, 11:04
Yep,
They took two WB lanes and diverted EB to them like on Monday or Tuesday.
Hence the discussion about CDOT having to reimburse the off-shore contractor that built the toll road due to the loss in tolls.
So, what's the deal with the 10 semi loads of 3x3x6 foam blocks that they have delivered on site? Is the plan to dig out the entire section of road leading up to the bridge and use these blocks as the road base?
SideShow Bob
08-17-2019, 21:23
O
So, what's the deal with the 10 semi loads of 3x3x6 foam blocks that they have delivered on site? Is the plan to dig out the entire section of road leading up to the bridge and use these blocks as the road base?
That?s some the filler for the ?aircrete? to be used in the reconstruction.....
Actually I have no idea.....
On thinking about the wall collapse, I wonder if the same contractor conglomerate that constructed the SH 287 (Federal Blvd.) wall that collapsed between 68th Ave. & 70th Ave at the RR over pass a few years ago also built the US 36 wall that collapsed ?
Found some info on it.. this is what they have stacked up there on site:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geofoam
"Geofoam is expanded polystyrene (EPS) or extruded polystyrene (XPS) manufactured into large lightweight blocks. The blocks vary in size but are often 2 m ? 0.75 m ? 0.75 m (6.6 ft ? 2.5 ft ? 2.5 ft). The primary function of geofoam is to provide a lightweight void fill below a highway, bridge approach, embankment or parking lot. EPS Geofoam minimizes settlement on underground utilities. Geofoam is also used in much broader applications, including lightweight fill, green roof fill, compressible inclusions, thermal insulation, and (when appropriately formed) drainage.[1][self-published source]"
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/08/Geofoam_Rix%C3%B6_5.jpg/1280px-Geofoam_Rix%C3%B6_5.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Terminology-2.jpg
I have so many questions...
I thought styrofoam was the work of the devil and killing the earth? Will the road squeak like a foam cooler every time someone drives over it? [Sarcasm2]
PDF: Lessons Learned from Failures InvolvingGeofoam in Roads and Embankments (http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.502.5692&rep=rep1&type=pdf)
I thought styrofoam was the work of the devil and killing the earth?
Yeah right? Now my fellow Boulderites can travel in horror when they drive their EVs to Denver.
SideShow Bob
08-17-2019, 22:25
I thought styrofoam was the work of the devil and killing the earth?
Except when you impede a tree huggers commute home.
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