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Gman
07-18-2019, 20:11
You downloaded FaceApp. Here's what you've just done to your privacy. (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/you-downloaded-faceapp-heres-what-youve-just-done-to-your-privacy/ar-AAEtzVE)


When an app goes viral, how can you know whether it's all good fun - or covertly violating your privacy by, say, sending your face to the Russian government?

That's the burning question about FaceApp (https://www.faceapp.com/), a program that takes photos of people and "ages" them using artificial intelligence. Soon after it shot to the top of the Apple and Google store charts this week, privacy advocates began waving warning flags about the Russian-made app's vague legalese (https://www.faceapp.com/privacy). Word spread quickly that the app might be a disinformation campaign or secretly downloading your entire photo album. Leaders of the Democratic party warned campaigns to delete the app 'immediately. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/07/17/faceapp-adds-decades-your-age-fun-popular-russian-owned-app-raises-privacy-concerns/?utm_term=.39a4b46f0677)'

I got some answers by running my own forensic analysis and talking to the CEO of the company that made the app. But the bigger lesson was how much app-makers and the stores run by Apple and Google leave us flying blind when it comes to privacy.

I raised similar questions a few weeks ago when I ran an experiment to find out what my iPhone did while I slept at night. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/05/28/its-middle-night-do-you-know-who-your-iphone-is-talking/?utm_term=.3a9057b12d77) I found apps sending my personal information to all sorts of tracking companies I'd never heard of.

So what about FaceApp? It was vetted by Apple's App Store and Google's Play Store, which even labeled it an ?"Editors' Choice." They both link to its privacy policy - which they know nobody reads.

Looking under the hood of FaceApp with the tools from my iPhone test, I found it sharing information about my phone with Facebook and Google AdMob, which probably help it place ads and check the performance of its ads. The most unsettling part was how much data FaceApp was sending to its own servers, after which - who knows what happens. It's not just your own face that FaceApp might gobble up - if you age friends or family members, their face gets uploaded, too.
https://c-5uwzmx78pmca90x24quo-a-uav-kwux2eisiuiqhmlx2evmb.g01.msn.com/g00/3_c-5eee.uav.kwu_/c-5UWZMXPMCA90x24pbbx78ax3ax2fx2fquo-a-uav-kwu.isiuiqhml.vmbx2fbmvivbx2fiux78x2fmvbqbgqlx2fII Mbff7.quox3fpx3d9844x26ex3d9376x26ux3d4x26yx3d48x2 6wx3dnx26tx3dnx26fx3d0158x26gx3d9037x26q98k.uizsx3 dquiom_$/$/$/$/$? Geoffrey Fowler/The Washington Post FaceApp, which uses artificial intelligence to "age" people, has gone viral. Tech columnist Geoffrey A. Fowler tried it himself - and explored the privacy implications.

In an email exchange, FaceApp CEO Yaroslav Goncharov tried to clarify some of that.

These five questions are basics we ought to know about any app or service that wants something as personal as our faces.
1. What data do they take?

FaceApp uploads and processes our photos in the cloud, Goncharov said, but the app will "only upload a photo selected by a user for editing." The rest of your camera roll stays on your phone. You can also use FaceApp without giving it your name or email - and 99 percent of users do just that, he said.

2. How long do they hold on my data?

The app?s terms of service (https://www.faceapp.com/terms) grant it a "perpetual" license to our photos. Goncharov said FaceApp deletes "most" of the photos from its servers after 48 hours.

3. What are they doing with my data?

Is FaceApp using our faces and the maps it makes of them for anything other than the express purpose of the app, such as running facial identification on us? "No," Goncharov said. Legally, though, the app's terms give it - and whoever might buy it or work with it in the future " the right to do whatever it wants, through an "irrevocable, nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide, fully-paid, transferrable sub-licensable license." (Clear as mud?)

4. Who has access to my data?

Do government authorities in Russia have access to our photos? "No," Goncharov said. FaceApp's engineers are based in Russia, so our data is not transferred there. He said the company also doesn't "sell or share any user data with any third parties?" - aside, I pointed out, from what it shares with trackers from Facebook and AdMob. (Another exception: Users in Russia may have their data stored in Russia.)

5. How can I delete my data?

Just deleting the app won't get rid of the photos FaceApp may have in the cloud. Goncharov said people can put in a request to delete all data from FaceApp's servers, but the process is convoluted. "For the fastest processing, we recommend sending the requests from the FaceApp mobile app using 'Settings->Support->Report a bug' with the word "privacy" in the subject line. We are working on the better UI [user interface] for that,? he said.

Why not post this information to FaceApp's website, beyond the legalese? "We are planning to make some improvements," Goncharov said.

Same question for the app stores run by Apple and Google. Those giant companies make money from a cut of upgrades you can purchase in the app. We're literally paying them to read the privacy policies - and vet that companies such as FaceApp are telling the truth. Why not better help us understand right where we download what's really going on? Neither company replied with an on-the-record comment.

Much better to help us sort through all of this before millions of us upload our faces somewhere we might regret.

Justin
07-18-2019, 20:16
The alt-tech revolution with apps and operating systems that have in-built privacy can't get here fast enough.

Zundfolge
07-18-2019, 21:43
The alt-tech revolution with apps and operating systems that have in-built privacy can't get here fast enough.

There are a few options out there now.
https://lineageos.org
https://unaos.com/
https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/

BPTactical
07-19-2019, 11:05
Just another reason to not do the entire "Social Media" thing...

Irving
07-19-2019, 11:17
Just another reason to not do the entire "Social Media" thing...

Besides here.

Zundfolge
07-19-2019, 11:43
Besides here.

Forums may be sort of a proto "social media" thing, but they are not really anything like what modern social media has become.

This site doesn't require your full legal name ... it doesn't log what you do on other sites ... it doesn't insinuate itself between its users and other sites ... its not tracking your pornhub history and its not trying to manipulate its users.

Irving
07-19-2019, 11:49
But it does own your data.

Skip
07-19-2019, 11:56
Good info/concerns.

But what do you think is going to be done with DMV/passport photos? Finger prints? DNA? Rumors about NSA storing "voiceprints" too. All of this can fake a person or his presence.

Matter of time IMHO.

This is what freaks me out about DNA. It's presented at 99.999999% foolproof but depends on people being honest and lab techs doing their job from start to finish. And no avg Joe can verify it.

This cat isn't back in the bag.

Irving
07-19-2019, 12:02
But it does own your data.

Let me walk that back a bit. People talk about their personal lives, show pictures of their dogs and what they eat, and any ole stranger can come look. Also, there is a limited control of what you post (can't delete a sale thread). I'm not making a judgment call here, just pointing out that what happens here is not all that different from what we distintas about other sites like Facebook.

ChickNorris
07-19-2019, 12:06
Tell Data that Spot is loose.

Zundfolge
07-19-2019, 12:09
This is what freaks me out about DNA.

Use of biometrics in general is frightening because they're simply not secure. If someone steals your Gmail password then worst case scenario you have to create a new account with a new password. But if people hack someone using your biometric identity they have your "username and password" FOREVER. Its not like you can have your DNA re-sequenced.

Justin
07-19-2019, 12:13
Just another reason to not do the entire "Social Media" thing...

This is more than just social media.

The entirety of Android OS is essentially built to be very easy to harvest your personal data.
IOS is only a little bit better.
And Windows has followed suit, starting with Win 7, and has only gotten worse with Win 10.

And then, of course, there is basically every single email provider out there from Comcast to Gmail and Outlook.

Saying "oh, well, I don't facebook so I'm ok" is a very false sense of security.

Justin
07-19-2019, 12:16
But it does own your data.

Unless VBulletin has significantly changed since my admin days, the only data it owns is the data you explicitly type into it.

Evidently VBulletin's secondary way of generating income (other than from software sales) is to wait until a forum gets to a certain size and then buy it out and plaster it with ads.

At least as of a few years ago, VBulletin-powered forums don't dial home and send all of your posts and profile information to VBulletin HQ where it can be analyzed by marketing algorithms.

Justin
07-19-2019, 12:28
Let me walk that back a bit. People talk about their personal lives, show pictures of their dogs and what they eat, and any ole stranger can come look. Also, there is a limited control of what you post (can't delete a sale thread). I'm not making a judgment call here, just pointing out that what happens here is not all that different from what we distintas about other sites like Facebook.

Unless the backend of VBulletin has changed, the major difference between VB and FB is that VB does not centrally store and datamine what gets posted by its users, nor does VB have the ability to see what you're up to on other website. Also, VB gives much finer control to forum owners/admins than FB does, even for groups, and doesn't try to enforce a one-size-fits-all corporate social policy on all of the different sites using their software.

Sure, you can argue there are some similarities; eg the admins here can see what IP you're posting from, just like FB corporate can, and yeah, search engine spiders and archive sites may crawl the page and make records of it, but from the standpoint of being able to effectively scrape site data and feed it into industrial scale databases for analysis and cross referencing, comparing VB to FB is a lot like comparing an infant in a baseball-themed onesie to an MLB pitcher.

electronman1729
07-19-2019, 12:39
Facebook is for chumps

Irving
07-19-2019, 12:58
I'm not trying to compare the software, just the social aspect of the social media.

Gman
07-19-2019, 13:11
There are hooks for the forum that tie into Google Analytics, but the only info here is what you put here. I don't have to login to this forum to get non-related apps to work on my phone, for example.

Skip
07-19-2019, 13:17
Use of biometrics in general is frightening because they're simply not secure. If someone steals your Gmail password then worst case scenario you have to create a new account with a new password. But if people hack someone using your biometric identity they have your "username and password" FOREVER. Its not like you can have your DNA re-sequenced.

Exactly.

Add in the intense political polarization/corruption and I trust this even less.

The thing about selective sampling of suspects DNA is that the population was limited to suspects of an actual crime (time, place). With national/global databases this isn't so. Anyone who has done the DNA services, or had a close family member do it, has probably already had their info shared with LE for searches (without explicit consent or notification).

Aloha_Shooter
07-19-2019, 14:11
This is more than just social media.

The entirety of Android OS is essentially built to be very easy to harvest your personal data.
IOS is only a little bit better.
And Windows has followed suit, starting with Win 7, and has only gotten worse with Win 10.

And then, of course, there is basically every single email provider out there from Comcast to Gmail and Outlook.

Saying "oh, well, I don't facebook so I'm ok" is a very false sense of security.

.. and that leads to some difficult personal decisions. I prefer the customizability and hardware design of Android devices but Google makes its money from data mining while Apple makes most of its profit from overpriced hardware (which works very well and is very convenient) while Microsoft makes its money by charging customers to keep shitty software working (sort of). That overstates each case somewhat ... but only somewhat. Really, Google offers its main products "free" so how do people think it became a multi-billion dollar enterprise?


Facebook is for chumps

Agreed. If anyone comes across a Facebook account claiming to be me, it's a fake.


There are hooks for the forum that tie into Google Analytics, but the only info here is what you put here. I don't have to login to this forum to get non-related apps to work on my phone, for example.

I have google-analytics.com flagged in NoScript as untrusted and it is completely blocked by Ghostery in my browser. Hasn't hurt me on any of the sites I browse.

Irving
07-19-2019, 14:13
Any time I hear from Google about storage space for my photos, videos, drive, I want to tell them to fuck off because I know they are using ten times the space for all my personal data they've collected.

Justin
07-21-2019, 10:14
Facebook is for chumps

Facebook has your data whether you have gone to the effort to set up an account or not.

Their tech is good enough, and tied in to enough other sources of data that it can and will autogenerate a Facebook page for you that you can choose, or not, to claim as your own.

In the meantime, that auto-generated page is nothing more than a public front end hook to get you to sign up. Underneath the hood Facebook already has a bunch of personalized data stored about you in their database.

In short, even if you've never set up a Facebook account, they still have your bits, and they don't care about whether or not you gave explicit consent.

Justin
07-21-2019, 10:20
.. and that leads to some difficult personal decisions. I prefer the customizability and hardware design of Android devices but Google makes its money from data mining while Apple makes most of its profit from overpriced hardware (which works very well and is very convenient) while Microsoft makes its money by charging customers to keep shitty software working (sort of). That overstates each case somewhat ... but only somewhat. Really, Google offers its main products "free" so how do people think it became a multi-billion dollar enterprise?



Agreed. If anyone comes across a Facebook account claiming to be me, it's a fake.



I have google-analytics.com flagged in NoScript as untrusted and it is completely blocked by Ghostery in my browser. Hasn't hurt me on any of the sites I browse.


The problem with all of this is that we now live in a society where using a smartphone is becoming ubiquitous to the point of nearly being a requirement, and that trend is only going to continue.

And the "choice" given to us by BigTech basically boils down to this: either submit to their intrusive data mining in order to reap the rewards of these devices, or you can go live off grid in a cabin somewhere. There's literally no middle choice that allows you to use these devices while maintaining control over your personal data.

DireWolf
07-21-2019, 11:10
This is one of the few areas where the EU is actually on the right path and we would be well served to follow in their footsteps...

Article 17 under the GDPR requires an organization to delete any personal data, including pseudonymised data, when the data subject (individual) removes consent (a few exceptions notwithstanding).

Unfortunately, this doesn't help us much at the moment over here, given the subject residency/applicability of the existing laws, but does give some cause for hope, especially when you consider that GDPR fines related to mismanaging data privacy are starting to be a big deal (just this month, BA got hit with a $230M fine, and Marriot got nailed for $125M, both just pennies compared to how big GDPR fines can get). We just need an equivalent here to start applying foot to social-media ass...

Zundfolge
07-21-2019, 14:34
The problem with all of this is that we now live in a society where using a smartphone is becoming ubiquitous to the point of nearly being a requirement, and that trend is only going to continue.


I've found that not having any cell phone (let alone a smart phone) to be only a minor inconvenience. There is a growing anti-smartphone sentiment growing out there (as is evidenced by the commercial success of the Nokia 3310 and the creation of minimalist dumb phones like the Light Phone). So I'm such a luddite that I'm cutting edge :p

FoxtArt
07-21-2019, 16:58
I think the play store / apple store should be fined for promoting the software. Regulators want to flag Russian media, but our biggest companies that manage our biggest vulnerabilities don't flag software as Russian, which is far more important?

I wonder how many more people the Russians can blackmail now. Now they probably have rudimentary understanding of the interconnected nature of many peoples private lives, plus a lot of their private photos, plus software to recognize them if they ever happen to visit Russia.

Thanks, Google and Apple.

IBCSLRIPATS (In before Celebrities Start Loving Russian In Public All The Sudden)

Gman
07-21-2019, 17:38
These days, in a dumbed-down PC society, any discrimination is BAD.

When you can't perceive the difference between anything, including that which may be harmful, that's not a good thing.

rondog
07-24-2019, 03:41
Who wants to know what they'll look like when they get old? How freaky. Hell, I'm already there anyway.....