View Full Version : 2.7 EcoBoost for towing? Anybody have one and can comment?
Martinjmpr
07-31-2019, 11:06
I know we have a "general vehicle thread" already so I hope I'm not violating forum etiquette by starting a new thread here, but I know there are a lot of "Truck guys" on the forum so I wanted to post this here:
Wife now says she wants me to get a new truck. We went camping last weekend up by Jefferson and she said she wanted to drive the truck and pull the trailer so I could ride my motorcycle, since she knows I don't get enough "motorcycle time" with all the camping we do.
So she drove the Suburban pulling the 3500lb camper and as soon as I got to the campsite she said "dude, you need a new truck! That one is a dog!" I think it was going up 285 from Morrison or maybe Kenosha Pass that did it for her - 30mph and straining in 1st gear!
This is on top of the transmission taking a dump in Utah in May, which cost us 2 extra days and nearly $4k for a new tranny. So yeah, I need a new truck.
So what is the general consensus on the F-150 2.7 EcoBoost for towing? There are some impressive videos out on YouTube of pulling a 7000# trailer (twice what I pull) up I-70 from Silverthorne to the Eisenhower Tunnel at 70mph with the 2.7. Apparently it's a beast!
Anybody have one? If so, how do you like it? Pros/cons?
One thing I really like about the F-150 is the ability to get a 36 gallon tank. Chevy/GM has already been crossed off my list because all their pickups have the pathetic 26 gallon tank - way too small for me (they have an optional tank but it's only available on the reg-cab models, not the crew cab, which I need.)
Other contender would be the Ram 1500 with the 5.7 V8. A more 'conventional' approach than the EcoBoost but still should do better on gas than my ancient Suburban.
Here's the video I was referring to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQQGYJCG65E
I have a 3.5 EcoBoost. I can tell you that pulling in the mountains or a heavy load will significantly reduce mileage. I got 10 pulling a 3000lb trailer (not very aerodynamic) from Brighton to Albany WY
hurley842002
07-31-2019, 11:19
No personal experience but my wife's Aunt and Uncle have the ecoboost F-150 and have towed a large Airstream camper all over the country, literally from coast to coast (Virginia Beach to LA), and have zero complaints.
ETA: theirs is the 3.5
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Martinjmpr
07-31-2019, 11:28
I have a 3.5 EcoBoost. I can tell you that pulling in the mountains or a heavy load will significantly reduce mileage. I got 10 pulling a 3000lb trailer (not very aerodynamic) from Brighton to Albany WY
10 is about what I get now so that wouldn't be a loss.
My understanding with the whole "ecoboost" deal is that it's either or: Eco OR Boost but not both. Which is fine with me, I'm just tired of struggling to get up the hills. Going up to the Eisenhower Tunnel if there is any traffic at all that keeps me from maintaining a speed of at least 40, my truck ends up dropping down to 1st gear and about 5,000 RPM. Max speed at that point is 35 and the engine is screaming.
I don't think it's so much the engine as the 4 speed transmission. I really need another pair of gears, one between 1st and 2nd (1st is too low and 2nd is too high) and another between 3 and 4.
It's too bad you can't get a half ton truck with a manual transmission anymore, but that ship sailed a long time ago.
I?d look at the 1/2 ton diesel options if you do a decent amount of towing.
I just ordered the new 2020 3500 duramax, 10 speed tranny now!
Slap a turbo or supercharger on it. =) I am debating a wholy impractical suburan conversion with dual turbos.
But for real, coworker put a supercharger on his 2000 suburban and would do 85 up the grapevine in CA while towing his large ski boat.
Sorry. We now return you to your regurarly scheduled thread.
Martinjmpr
07-31-2019, 11:56
I?d look at the 1/2 ton diesel options if you do a decent amount of towing.
I just ordered the new 2020 3500 duramax, 10 speed tranny now!
Diesel doesn't work for me for a number of reasons. This vehicle is also my DD and my short commute is likely to cause problems with a diesel, at least from what I've read.
For my uses, a gasser is better, the only question is to go with the twin turbo V6 or the NA V8.
Martinjmpr
07-31-2019, 12:05
Slap a turbo or supercharger on it. =) I am debating a wholy impractical suburan conversion with dual turbos.
But for real, coworker put a supercharger on his 2000 suburban and would do 85 up the grapevine in CA while towing his large ski boat.
Sorry. We now return you to your regurarly scheduled thread.
Supercharger!
Then I'd be all like....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxhwiAASMH8
Seriously, I kind of think that slapping a turbo or supercharger onto a 15 year old, 186,000 mile motor might not make for the best reliability. ;)
BushMasterBoy
07-31-2019, 12:20
Whatever you decide, if it has an automatic transmission, it needs a larger transmission cooler than the factory one it came with. My 07 Silverado 2500HD was experiencing some really high transmission fluid temps. I added a deep sump cast aluminum transmission fluid pan that increased fluid capacity by 3 quarts. Then I installed a Tru Cool 40,000 BTU cooler in place of the factory cooler. Now the transmission temperature stays at least 50 F cooler than before and I never worry about over heating the trans fluid.
ChickNorris
07-31-2019, 12:22
Reliability schmiability... itd be a whole lotta fun.
colorider
07-31-2019, 13:07
You will have ample power to tow your trailer. Just keep an eye on the engine temps on long climbs. The twin turbos great a ton of heat when spooled up and the intercooler and radiators are a tad shy of being fully effective on some hills. You will be able to easily go the apps limit up all parts of 285 towing that trailer. I have a 2017 3.5 and lug 9000# of toy hauler and bikes every other weekend up 285 to Buena Vista. Just have to watch my temps when I have the AC blasting on hot days climbing the hills. This is my 2nd eco 150. Both have been great trucks and super fun to drive. Especially the 17 w the sport mode and 10 speed tranny.
I assume they resolved the issues in humid climates... something to the effect of the intercooler condensing water, and the intake sucking that water leading to engine failure in the (wrong) combination of climate/speed/load/circumstances. I don't know much about them though, only drove a rental once and liked it quite a bit.
I'm a bit more partial to the 2019 Ram 1500 Crew Cab with the 5.7 Hemi, but I also own one. The Hemi is reliable and does pretty well without having to use tech like GDI to get pretty decent mpg. I recall FLT got worse mpg with the EcoBoost than the V8 Hemi on the Ike Challenge. The space in the back seats is pretty impressive and the floor is flat. Air Suspension may improve handling while towing, if that's important to you.
The ZF 8-speed is an amazing transmission and used by just about every automaker excluding Ford and GM, including Audi, Bentley, Aston Martin, BMW, Jaguar, Lamborghini, LandRover, Maserati, Rolls-Royce, Toyota, and VW.
...and I really love the exhaust note of the V8.
Ram started production of the 2020 trucks this month.
No real world experience with the 2.7 but for such a small engine the numbers are impressive. If it?s in the budget the 3.5 would be the way to go for towing.
Personally, I have a Dodge with the hemi and I love it. My first tow with it was from here to Grand Junction and back. Trailer empty was 3300 and I had three ATVs and some large ice chests and camping gear on it so probably total trailer weight around 4900 or so. Gas mileage was bad but running the posted speed limit (or above) was no issue.
BushMasterBoy
07-31-2019, 14:10
This report says it is finicky about oil type. My basic knowledge says this engine prefers premium gas due to high compression ratio using turbos. Has plastic oil pan. Sometimes prone to head gasket failure. I have read a lot about other Eco Boost failures. I'm a bitch about reliability. Nothing makes me madder than stuck on the side of the road, broke down. eff that...
http://www.motorreviewer.com/engine.php?engine_id=146
I own a 2019 F150, 2.7 EcoBoost, 4x4, XLT, Sport, Crew Cab, Short Bed, but towing is not my main or anticipated usage. I didn't buy any special "Max Tow" packages, or the larger gas tank, etc.
I can confirm that, without towing anything, this thing flies up and over the mountain passes. I'm getting a little over 20 MPG combined city and weekend mountain driving. I have a bit over 2000 miles on it, so it is brand new to me.
My "Payload" sticker is listed at 1600 lbs. which is the total weight I can have in the truck including passengers, cargo, trailer tongue weight etc. This number changes on a truck by truck, feature by feature basis.
Here's a link to the 2019 F150 Towing Guide...
https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content/dam/brand_ford/en_us/brand/resources/general/pdf/guides/19Towing_Ford_F150_Oct25.pdf
It shows that theoretically with my 3.55 Axle Ratio, I can pull up to 7600 lbs. I am sure that is best case, and not mountain driving, etc. but as I understand it the real limiter (besides mountain driving) on what you can pull is the "payload" capacity.
Hope this helps even though I don't tow.
-John
SouthPaw
07-31-2019, 14:55
You'll never go back and say "I wish I went with the smaller engine."
I'll just add that if you look at the Ram option, opt for the 33 gallon tank. You probably don't need the towing package as the towing mirrors will exclude the option of power folding and 360 surround cam (you may not care about those, but I wouldn't go without them). The optional integrated trailer brake controller is all you probably need.
fright88
07-31-2019, 16:12
I have a 17 SuperCab 2.7 and while I haven't towed up the mountains it's towed a trailer with my Jeep and a couple uhaul moving trailers no problem. I really wanted the 3.5 Screw but it just wasn't in my budget. That said I am really happy with my truck and am suprised with the power. Although my last truck was a 05 5.4 that was a dog. I can get 25+ MPG no problem on my trips into town and average over 20 every tank which is kinda saying a lot because my town in tiny most of my drives are through residential streets stopping every block and under 2 miles.
The 3 liter PowerStroke can get 30mpg, although the OP said diesel was not an option. I've not heard great things about the latest little diesels from any manufacturer. They're not the low maintenance 'run it forever' engines that existed prior to these new emissions requirements.
What is the axle gear ratio on your suburban? You might be able to fix your problem with a gear swap. The RPO in your glove compartment starts with an F, let me know. I can look it up. Unless you just really want a new pickup.
...and then you begin affecting highway efficiency when you're not towing, so there are trade-offs. The transmission still would be a concern. The OP didn't mention the model year of the Suburban or the engine. My guess would be 5.3l V8 Vortec. The engines are damn near bullet-proof, but they're not very good for pulling a load, particularly with the older versions. Summit Racing does have a number of performance upgrades for them, but they're not 'cheap'.
...and then you begin affecting highway efficiency when you're not towing, so there are trade-offs. The transmission still would be a concern. The OP didn't mention the model year of the Suburban or the engine. My guess would be 5.3l V8 Vortec. The engines are damn near bullet-proof, but they're not very good for pulling a load, particularly with the older versions. Summit Racing does have a number of performance upgrades for them, but they're not 'cheap'.
It just depends on what he has in it, which is why I asked for the RPO. If it is higher than 3.73s, it won't pull a load for shit with a 4L60 trans.
Martinjmpr
07-31-2019, 18:45
...and then you begin affecting highway efficiency when you're not towing, so there are trade-offs. The transmission still would be a concern. The OP didn't mention the model year of the Suburban or the engine. My guess would be 5.3l V8 Vortec. The engines are damn near bullet-proof, but they're not very good for pulling a load, particularly with the older versions. Summit Racing does have a number of performance upgrades for them, but they're not 'cheap'.
It just depends on what he has in it, which is why I asked for the RPO. If it is higher than 3.73s, it won't pull a load for shit with a 4L60 trans.
Current vehicle is an 04 Suburban 1500 LT, 4x4, 5.3 with 3.73 gears.
Currently at 186k miles. It's in decent shape overall and I've put a lot of work into it (mild lift, 33" tires, dual battery setup so I can run a refrigerator, stereo with Bluetooth and a big TruCool transmission cooler.)
The 5.3 is a reliable engine, no doubt, but in terms of power, it's marginal at best, especially when towing at Colorado altitudes. We camp 14 - 16 times a year and most of those trips require climbing a high pass.
I don't necessarily mind sitting in the slow lane when climbing a pass but when VW buses are whizzing by me it's a little embarrassing.
The 4L60 transmission isn't much help.
Much as I like the 'Burb (and I do), I really think it's time for a new truck. I bought this one 3 1/2 years ago with 136k on it but I really need to get something with low miles and then my plan is to keep it at least until I retire which is about 7 years away (and ideally longer than that.)
As I said, right now it's pretty much between the Ram 1500 with the V8 and the F-150 with the Ecoboost 2.7.
Funny, I used to be a Toyota guy but the Tundra doesn't appeal to me at all. Ditto for the Nissan Titan.
I agree that an aux trans cooler would be a recommended mod. I saw 220 degrees at one point last weekend. It will get a cooler before next trip.
As far as the condensation issues, I believe that any forced induction motor should get a catch can installed, especially the direct injection motors.
Martinjmpr
07-31-2019, 18:47
I'll just add that if you look at the Ram option, opt for the 33 gallon tank. You probably don't need the towing package as the towing mirrors will exclude the option of power folding and 360 surround cam (you may not care about those, but I wouldn't go without them). The optional integrated trailer brake controller is all you probably need.
Dumb question maybe but how can I tell what tank it has? I'm buying used, not new, so I likely won't have a window sticker. GM vehicles have RPO codes that show all the options the vehicle was assembled with, does Ram have anything similar?
BPTactical
07-31-2019, 18:57
There is no replacement for displacement.
Sweating fuel mileage while towing is an exercise in futility.
Force induction the suburban after a set of rings and some new bearings
you didn’t say what year but if its not a LS drop one in then repeat above and make it your tow pig.
Then buy a sporty little ranger with the 2.3 (which aren’t little these days it’s bigger than my taco)
The awesome gas mileage you guys are talking about in these new trucks makes me excited. Until I remember how much they cost.
The awesome gas mileage you guys are talking about in these new trucks makes me excited. Until I remember how much they cost.
Imagine the kind of mileage a new mini van would get.
Only slightly better (28 mpg) but I bet for half the price used.
Anyway, trucks! That a 2.7 can tow 7,000lbs is bad ass.
Dumb question maybe but how can I tell what tank it has? I'm buying used, not new, so I likely won't have a window sticker. GM vehicles have RPO codes that show all the options the vehicle was assembled with, does Ram have anything similar?
I think you can get the Monroney window sticker with the VIN. Most of the sites I'm finding right now want to charge for that. I swear I was able to download a copy of mine, but I can't remember if that was through the dealership website.
Wait. Just found this one and it pulled up my truck's VIN - https://removeandreplace.com/2013/03/24/find-your-cars-window-sticker-online/
The awesome gas mileage you guys are talking about in these new trucks makes me excited. Until I remember how much they cost.
[word]
...but the inside of my Ram pickup is much nicer than my Mercedes Benz was.
snichols28
07-31-2019, 22:40
Spend a little bit more for the 3.5. Yes, a 2.7 will probably do what you need, but a 3.5 will do it a little easier. It's not much more $ when you're looking at the total picture. Ecoboost F150's are very kick ass!
thedave1164
08-01-2019, 05:59
Let me know when the eco boost is regularly making the 300K+ miles that Toyotas are
ChickNorris
08-01-2019, 06:53
Basic info but I thought I'd post anyway.
https://www.cars.com/articles/2017-mid-size-full-size-pickup-fuel-tank-capacities-1420692719238/
https://www.cars.com/articles/2017-mid-size-full-size-pickup-truck-driving-ranges-1420692743551/
My Ram says what size tank in the door jamb.
Martinjmpr
08-01-2019, 08:28
Force induction the suburban after a set of rings and some new bearings
you didn?t say what year but if its not a LS drop one in then repeat above and make it your tow pig.
Then buy a sporty little ranger with the 2.3 (which aren?t little these days it?s bigger than my taco)
Oh, you mean like this one right here?
78527
Yep, had it for 3 years. Great little truck. Here's the deal, though: After almost 7 years of owning two vehicles, my "nice" truck + a "daily driver/beater" I realized that it just wasn't worth it to me to have to maintain, insure and park 2 vehicles.
My commute is 10 miles each way and I work from home 2 days a week so that means my total "commute" each week is ~ 60 miles.
It was fun having two vehicles, but anymore, it's just not necessary and when I sit down and HONESTLY crunch the numbers, it's a net loss.
What's worse, when I had 2 vehicles we lived in Englewood and had a huge driveway that could easily accommodate all our vehicles. Now we're in Columbine with a much smaller driveway on a corner lot which means that any "extra" vehicles would park on the street - just not something I want to have to deal with.
As far as the "upgrade to Suburban" idea, as appealing as it is on paper, in the real world it just wouldn't be a good idea for me. Even with a refreshed 5.3, it would still be an old-tech truck with a miserable 4 speed auto. Short of a full frame-off resto (which I have neither the time nor the skills to do) it's still not going to be as reliable as a newer vehicle would be.
SouthPaw
08-01-2019, 10:19
Force induction the suburban after a set of rings and some new bearings
you didn’t say what year but if its not a LS drop one in then repeat above and make it your tow pig.
Then buy a sporty little ranger with the 2.3 (which aren’t little these days it’s bigger than my taco)
He metioned '04 Suburban with a 5.3L. These LS engines LOVE boost.
Martinjmpr
08-01-2019, 11:51
He metioned '04 Suburban with a 5.3L. These LS engines LOVE boost.
OK, so assuming arguendo (<---- fancy word that means "for the sake of argument" and I like to use fancy words like that because it makes me feel better about still having student loan payments at the age of 57) that I wanted to go this route, some follow up questions:
1. Where would I find a shop that would/could put a turbo or blower on a 15 year old truck with 186 grand on the clock? and
2. What kind of warranty can I expect it to have? and
3. How much "out the door" are we looking at, cost wise?
Oh, and one more thing: Given that I've blown up 2 transmissions already, what are the chances that the new 4L60 in my 'Burb is going to last attached to a turbo or supercharged engine?
DavieD55
08-01-2019, 12:27
If I were seeking to tow anything of lite to moderate weight like 1000-7000lbs on the highways, I would more than likely opt for the 5.7L Toyota Tundra. Now If I were going to tow up in the 8,000-10,000 lbs range I would probably go for a 3/4 or even a full ton turbo diesel.
Martinjmpr
08-01-2019, 12:47
There is no replacement for displacement.
Sweating fuel mileage while towing is an exercise in futility.
With regards to your first point, I don't think that's true anymore. At least in the sense that both turbo boost and hybrid technology can add the benefits of more displacement without the weight penalties of additional displacement.
With regards to the second, sweating fuel mileage while towing is indeed an exercise in futility.
But many tow vehicles (including mine) don't tow 100% of the time - more like 50% or even less. So wanting to maximize MPG for the times when I'm NOT towing makes good sense, as long as doing so doesn't compromise the towing aspect.
That, again, is the benefit of the turbo: It provides power when you need it (and the high fuel consumption required to get that power) but when you don't need it, it goes back to being a mild V6.
Of course, even "improved MPG" isn't the whole story, is it? After all, when we talk about "saving fuel" what we REALLY want to do is save MONEY.
So then I would have to factor whether a boosted V6 that gets better MPG - but requires more expensive premium fuel - is a better deal than an NA V8 that doesn't do quite as well in terms of fuel economy - but that will burn cheap, rot-gun 85 octane.
colorider
08-01-2019, 12:49
First, I would fin for out your total cargo weight and the trailer total weight when being towed. Add for water, batteries, coolers, beer, propane tanks etc for the trailer. Then add up truck cargo such as your motorcycle. Let us know your total weight and that would really help in deciding if the 2.7 eco is a good choice. Just because they say it can tow 7000# doesn’t mean it’s a good idea or it’s going to be a comfortable ride while doing it. 3 of us tow campers and toy haulers every other weekend and we always compare mileage, engine temps etc. I have the 2017 3.5 eco, my buddy has a 2018 GMC Sierra, other has a 2017 dodge hemi. So far the Sierra gets the best gas mileage while towing. The dodge hemi and my eco are equal on mileage and the performance even though I’m towing about 2000# more than him.
BushMasterBoy
08-01-2019, 13:44
This is just my opinion. I Lived out of a camper for 13 years. 454 Suburban and a 19 foot travel trailer. Got pretty much the same MPG, no matter what I did with it. There is nothing like a big motor for towing. Also no comparison to having big tires, brakes, etc. The safety factor can't be ignored.
The feeling when driving, that you have all that power when you need it, is reassuring. And yes it can save your ass. I have a Chevy Colorado 2.8L and it hauled my inboard Chevy powered boat from Florida OK. I was extra cautious though. I'm guessing it was just under a ton. I have a 07 Chevy 2500HD and a 1984 454 dually too. I maintain all these vehicles myself. I also have a project 1984 SRW 1 ton Chevy 454 project truck.
So I have a little experience in towing and maintaining light trucks. Now I live in a house, and the camper just sits.
So after reading your situation and requirements, I would get a full size truck. 3/4 ton minimum. A low mileage older well maintained truck highly discounted due to age. Heavy emphasis on well maintained, fluid changes etc. They can be found and it is a pain looking at all the offerings. I personally feel all these claims of a small high performance engine doing all these heavy towing in extreme conditions are a disservice to buyers. Is a two piece engine block really necessary? Twin turbos that get insanely hot? All this shit sound like a Formula 1 racing engine. Get a big engine and a big truck. The little truck is for towing your motorcycle. Below is an example of a truck I would consider...
https://pueblo.craigslist.org/cto/d/pueblo-95-ford-f250-xlt/6939368518.html
SouthPaw
08-01-2019, 14:46
Excellent questions and I will do my best to answer them. I have researched this for a few years now so a I fairly versed on this topic. The LS series engine is known to hot-rodders all around as they are one tough engine and can hold gobs of power just as they are. You know that saying "well my friend has one?" Well a child hood friend of my builds these things all day. His personal truck held 800hp on a stock engine (stock from intake to oil pan with only supporting fuel mods and trans) that he beat daily before it let go over a previous condition (160K on the clock when he busted it). They also built a early 90's Ford Ranger they swapped with an LS that runs 10 seconds that really didn't cost them that much money. Just a swap, boost and fuel.
OK, so assuming arguendo (<---- fancy word that means "for the sake of argument" and I like to use fancy words like that because it makes me feel better about still having student loan payments at the age of 57) that I wanted to go this route, some follow up questions:
1. Where would I find a shop that would/could put a turbo or blower on a 15 year old truck with 186 grand on the clock?
There is plenty of kits online or you can have a shop custom build your own. I prefer to have the shop put one together for you or you can source the parts yourself. You will definitely get more bang for your buck by building your own vs a boxed kit. On3 is a company that makes a 'bolt on' twin turbo kit that. Their test vehicle was their shop truck (2000-ish GMC 2500HD 6.0L) that had over 200K on the clock before it saw any boost. It is still being used for parts deliveries etc and make over 600hp, closer to 700hp. Any performance shop knows these engines through and through. If you are serious, I can point you a few different directions for you to get quotes on.
2. What kind of warranty can I expect it to have?
Warranty is whatever you decide to do. If you have a shop put it on, I am sure there is some warranty on parts/labor but considering it is a performance mod, I wouldn't expect too much. Magnuson superchargers I believe offer some pretty decent warranty stuff but their kits run about $6500-$7000. They are the original "Magnuson Warranty Act."
3. How much "out the door" are we looking at, cost wise?
I have a 2003 Tahoe 5.3L that I bought with the intentions of putting a turbo on it (may happen one day if I ever get the extra coin). When I had my buddy quote a 'out the door, pick it up and drive away price' it was $5300+/- for a system that would support up to 800hp. If you wanted to shave some of that cost off, you could go with a smaller turbo, cheaper BOV/wastegate and knock off about $1000. That system would be good for around 500hp. These two prices included tuning and all supporting fuel mods needed but no transmission upgrade. 4L80's are a dime a dozen ($500-$1000), couple hundred for a shift kit, $600 for a circle D converter.
Oh, and one more thing: Given that I've blown up 2 transmissions already, what are the chances that the new 4L60 in my 'Burb is going to last attached to a turbo or supercharged engine?
Probably last a lifetime without being abused and driven under regular conditions if you don't have some crazy setup. If your Suburban is a 1500 series, you will want to remove the original 4L60 and replace with a 4L80 (out of the 2500+ series vehicles). With a good shift kit and torque convertor, the 4L80 has been known to hold 600hp with no issues. If/when I do mine, I will be driving with the 4L60 till it let's go. They generally only hold about 400hp before they are start losing gears and what not.
I thought about buying an older truck and swapping in a LS but then thought to myself; why give up all the updated features like AC, power steering, power windows, locks, etc when you could buy a tahoe, suburban, 1500 truck etc for about the same price and it has an LS already in it.
Of course, even "improved MPG" isn't the whole story, is it? After all, when we talk about "saving fuel" what we REALLY want to do is save MONEY.
So you're planning on saving money by buying a $30,000 used truck?
This is just my opinion. I Lived out of a camper for 13 years. 454 Suburban and a 19 foot travel trailer. Got pretty much the same MPG, no matter what I did with it. There is nothing like a big motor for towing. Also no comparison to having big tires, brakes, etc. The safety factor can't be ignored.
The feeling when driving, that you have all that power when you need it, is reassuring. And yes it can save your ass. I have a Chevy Colorado 2.8L and it hauled my inboard Chevy powered boat from Florida OK. I was extra cautious though. I'm guessing it was just under a ton. I have a 07 Chevy 2500HD and a 1984 454 dually too. I maintain all these vehicles myself. I also have a project 1984 SRW 1 ton Chevy 454 project truck.
So I have a little experience in towing and maintaining light trucks. Now I live in a house, and the camper just sits.
So after reading your situation and requirements, I would get a full size truck. 3/4 ton minimum. A low mileage older well maintained truck highly discounted due to age. Heavy emphasis on well maintained, fluid changes etc. They can be found and it is a pain looking at all the offerings. I personally feel all these claims of a small high performance engine doing all these heavy towing in extreme conditions are a disservice to buyers. Is a two piece engine block really necessary? Twin turbos that get insanely hot? All this shit sound like a Formula 1 racing engine. Get a big engine and a big truck. The little truck is for towing your motorcycle. Below is an example of a truck I would consider...
https://pueblo.craigslist.org/cto/d/pueblo-95-ford-f250-xlt/6939368518.html
I really don't understand the need for people to push the limits of 1/2 ton pickups. I like my 6.0 Yukon XL; it does OK on some things, but the experience of pulling anything is vastly superior with my cummins dually. Given the requirements in this thread, I would personally want a minimum of a 250/2500 with a full floater, but people are really into these luxury heavy halfs now so they can use it as a daily driver. I have a flatbed truck that does everything I need a truck to do, and a commuter that gets good fuel economy and is easy to drive....each to their own I guess.
I had the option to buy pretty much whatever I wanted when I bought my last truck. I actually started out looking at diesels. I tow maybe two times a year on average and my trailer fully loaded weighs maybe 2000 lbs. While having power to spare is nice, it didn?t take long for common sense to prevail. The lower initial cost of a gas truck and the lower overall cost of maintenance throughout its life coupled with the fact that 400 or so HP and TQ was probably more than I really needed anyway just made sense for my situation.
I did ask my wife to make sure she wasn?t going to get some crazy idea and buy a huge travel trailer in the foreseeable future before I fully committed to purchasing a gas engine half ton. I?d have been upset if a year or two later she decided to buy something I couldn?t tow with the darn thing.
I had the option to buy pretty much whatever I wanted when I bought my last truck. I actually started out looking at diesels. I tow maybe two times a year on average and my trailer fully loaded weighs maybe 2000 lbs. While having power to spare is nice, it didn?t take long for common sense to prevail. The lower initial cost of a gas truck and the lower overall cost of maintenance throughout its life coupled with the fact that 400 or so HP and TQ was probably more than I really needed anyway just made sense for my situation.
I did ask my wife to make sure she wasn?t going to get some crazy idea and buy a huge travel trailer in the foreseeable future before I fully committed to purchasing a gas engine half ton. I?d have been upset if a year or two later she decided to buy something I couldn?t tow with the darn thing.
I definitely agree that the new diesels with all the new emissions garbage and associated issues makes them only buy if you really need it....definitely not like my old 5.9 Cummins that will last forever.
Even your old Cummins probably costs double to maintain compared to a gasser. What?s that thing hold? Fifteen quarts of oil? Also, I?m coming up on 125K miles and haven?t touched my fuel filter yet. Can any diesel go that long without a fuel filter?
And like you mentioned the newer ones require you to buy special bottled urine to dump in the exhaust. What does that stuff cost?
Martinjmpr
08-01-2019, 20:22
So you're planning on saving money by buying a $30,000 used truck?
Fuel economy is a factor. It's not the most important factor, but it's not unimportant either.
Just by way of reference, I put about 13,000 miles on the truck last year. For a little over half of those miles there was a trailer behind it.
I'd be driving those miles whether I have a new truck or an old beater, so yes, MPG and fuel costs are a consideration.
And you might be tempted to say "just keep what you've got and save the money for gas" - I've said that myself.
Right up to the point where I was stranded by the side of the road, 300 miles from home with a blown transmission.
78535
Contrary to the message on my shirt. I was certainly NOT a "happy camper" at this point. ;)
Best picture ever.
Hey do you think there is a single flat earther who owns/tows a trailer?
Even your old Cummins probably costs double to maintain compared to a gasser. What?s that thing hold? Fifteen quarts of oil? Also, I?m coming up on 125K miles and haven?t touched my fuel filter yet. Can any diesel go that long without a fuel filter?
And like you mentioned the newer ones require you to buy special bottled urine to dump in the exhaust. What does that stuff cost?
The oil changes are more expensive because I use 3x the oil. which I do myself so not that bad...$70ish. Fuel filters are cheap; I change it once a year along with the rest of my vehicles both gas and diesel. The cost isn't that much especially compared to the maintenance costs of timing belt replacements, sensor issues, etc. Over the long haul, the service life on my 5.9 is vastly longer than a gas V8...I'll be dead and buried long before my truck. The new diesel issues really revolve around the EGR (soot recirculation) system, which does a lot of damage to the engine resulting in really high failure rates and high repair costs...really sucks because otherwise they are pretty cool. I would be annoyed about the DEF too; that's a stupid cost. It's no wonder why so many people disable all that junk.
Here is what I did to solve the comute cost and wear and tear. I got a Yaris for commuting, and the $ saved on milage and fuel pays for the yaris. My 05 burb is at 109k right now, tranny is good front end needs love, minor crap needs tlc. But I dont really tow.
I can see wanting only 1 car, and if that is what you want its your choice. I can also see getting a newer car that is posh and nice and quiet and makes long trips seem easy and pleasant. ( the wife and kid have a 201x cars and they rule in the NVH department).
But it sounds like you want to pay to get reliability here, and are tired of maintaining the burb. I get it, I got rid of the 2011 Sienna with a song in my hart, I had enough of buying new run flats every 20k, and brake changes after a panic stop. My dad got rid of his Montana minivan after the trsns soenoid went bad, it was old, he just had all fluids changend and the cooling system serviced and the thing had 70k miles on it, but enough was enough.
But remember this will cost you and assuming 13k mi a year and a couple of tows your new truck will start having issues in 10 years or so, probably sensors or trans.
Your call, your choic, your money. Let us know what you choose.
Well, I think you've already sold yourself on the little engine that could.
I hope it does well for you.
Sort of back on topic. I had a little time to kill one day at a local Ford dealership so found myself browsing the inventory of new F150s. The first thing I noticed was you couldn?t find a window sticker under about $54K. Some of the fancier ones were well into the upper $60k range. Anyhow, this dealership had tons of trucks and I think I saw one of them with the V8. Just about every one on the lot was one of the turbo V6 models. Seems to be the way things are heading I guess.
Sort of back on topic. I had a little time to kill one day at a local Ford dealership so found myself browsing the inventory of new F150s. The first thing I noticed was you couldn?t find a window sticker under about $54K. Some of the fancier ones were well into the upper $60k range. Anyhow, this dealership had tons of trucks and I think I saw one of them with the V8. Just about every one on the lot was one of the turbo V6 models. Seems to be the way things are heading I guess.
You can get into a 5 liter 4x4 supercrew (base) for 38k or so, but they aren't very common. Of 61 trucks on a nearby lot, 2 were the v8.
My 2016 Mercedes GL 450 SUV had a 3.0l bi-turbo V6 that required premium fuel. It made an insane amount of power and torque for the displacement, but the turbo lag wasn't fun and the 7-speed transmission never seemed to be in the best gear for the demand. The best mpg I could get on road trips was about 21 and it had a 26 gallon fuel tank.
I just drove from home to Moab, UT and averaged 23 mpg in my 5.7l Ram 1500. It was comfortable, quiet, and effortless. I pay less to fill my 33 gallon tank since it isn't premium and get better mileage.
Do whatever makes you happy. If the wife is unhappy with the current situation, I think you have your answer.
fright88
08-02-2019, 01:12
Sort of back on topic. I had a little time to kill one day at a local Ford dealership so found myself browsing the inventory of new F150s. The first thing I noticed was you couldn?t find a window sticker under about $54K. Some of the fancier ones were well into the upper $60k range. Anyhow, this dealership had tons of trucks and I think I saw one of them with the V8. Just about every one on the lot was one of the turbo V6 models. Seems to be the way things are heading I guess.
2.7 is cheaper then the 5.0 and the 3.5 has better performance and economy. Also forced induction tends to do better up here in our thin air. Don't get me wrong I am all for displacement, but these ecoboost motors are fun to drive IMHO.
Also FWIW I run 87 in my 2.7 and never have any problems although like I said before I don't tow much and never up the mountains yet.
I miss the turbo Escape company car I used to drive. I miss forced induction altogether actually. Nothing like a turbo in the hills.
Trigger Time 23
08-02-2019, 08:05
I have a 3.5 liter eco boost and pull a travel trailer. The trailer weight is about 20% below the trucks rated capacity. We go about 10-12 times a year, usually in the mountains. It pulls fine, but what I always worry about is coming back down the hill. My buddy pulls with a 3/4 ton diesel with an engine brake. That would be super nice, but then there is all the additional expense associated with diesel. They are more expensive to maintain and repair. I would prefer a 3/4 ton to tow, but my biggest issue is it would not fit in the garage, and I would rather drive the 1/2 ton other 345 days a year.
Martinjmpr
08-02-2019, 10:33
I have a 3.5 liter eco boost and pull a travel trailer. The trailer weight is about 20% below the trucks rated capacity. We go about 10-12 times a year, usually in the mountains. It pulls fine, but what I always worry about is coming back down the hill. My buddy pulls with a 3/4 ton diesel with an engine brake. That would be super nice, but then there is all the additional expense associated with diesel. They are more expensive to maintain and repair. I would prefer a 3/4 ton to tow, but my biggest issue is it would not fit in the garage, and I would rather drive the 1/2 ton other 345 days a year.
I thought the tow/haul mode automatically stepped down the gears to slow you on a long decline? Do you have the 6 or the 10 speed?
WRT the cost/benefit of a bigger truck, I crunched the numbers there too. A 3/4 ton Ram would be more than I need and the thing about a bigger truck is that EVERYTHING about them is more expensive: Tires, maintenance parts, fuel, etc. If I pulled a big 5th wheel or something of course I'd have a bigger truck (funny story, though, last weekend we were camping near Jefferson and I saw an F-150 long-bed crew-cab pulling a 5th wheel. I don't think I've ever seen a half ton pull a 5th wheel before!)
Unfortunately, there's no "perfect" solution. If it was just me I'd still be driving a 4runner and sleeping in the back but I think we all know the saying "happy wife/happy life." Wife wants/needs the trailer to go camping so that's what we have.
Here is what I did to solve the comute cost and wear and tear. I got a Yaris for commuting, and the $ saved on milage and fuel pays for the yaris. My 05 burb is at 109k right now, tranny is good front end needs love, minor crap needs tlc. But I dont really tow.
... Let us know what you choose.
As I said earlier in the thread, I did the "separate daily driver" thing for 6 years from 2011 to 2017. But with my short commute, it just didn't make sense. If I lived in CO Springs and had to commute to Denver every day, it would absolutely make sense but 20 miles round trip x 3 days a week (I work from home the other two) isn't enough driving to justify the "transactional costs" of a 2nd car (much as I'd love to have something with a manual transmission to zoom around in - I guess I'll have to be content with the motorcycles for my manual trans thrills.)
Still on the fence between Ram 1500 Hemi or Ford EcoBoost. The Ram seems to be the more conservative choice and I generally tend to be more conservative with my vehicle picks. That the Ram is cheaper is also a factor, though the flip side of that is whether it will "go the distance" for 10+ years.
Not that I?m a big Dodge fan boy but my dad always drove Dodge trucks. When I was looking and stumbled across the Dodge I currently own I called him because I knew the truck he was driving at the time had a lot of mileage because he was using it to commute to work for years before he retired. I asked him how many miles he had on his truck and what all he had to do to it over the years other than routine maintenance. At 260K miles the only thing he could think of was he had to have the electric cooling fan replaced once. I specially asked to make sure he hadn?t done a water pump, alternator, fuel pump, transmission.... nope.
I went back and bought the one I was looking at and no regrets so far. Bought it used. The original window sticker was in the glove box. It was a $44K truck brand new and I bought it five years old for $20K with 80K miles on it.
An added bonus for the Dodge is no matter how long I own it or how many miles I put on it I?ll never have to replace a turbo.
ChickNorris
08-02-2019, 12:01
My 99 Ram, I've had to replace all that & then some.
Then some more.
& another twice.
thedave1164
08-02-2019, 12:03
I thought the tow/haul mode automatically stepped down the gears to slow you on a long decline? Do you have the 6 or the 10 speed?
WRT the cost/benefit of a bigger truck, I crunched the numbers there too. A 3/4 ton Ram would be more than I need and the thing about a bigger truck is that EVERYTHING about them is more expensive: Tires, maintenance parts, fuel, etc. If I pulled a big 5th wheel or something of course I'd have a bigger truck (funny story, though, last weekend we were camping near Jefferson and I saw an F-150 long-bed crew-cab pulling a 5th wheel. I don't think I've ever seen a half ton pull a 5th wheel before!)
Unfortunately, there's no "perfect" solution. If it was just me I'd still be driving a 4runner and sleeping in the back but I think we all know the saying "happy wife/happy life." Wife wants/needs the trailer to go camping so that's what we have.
As I said earlier in the thread, I did the "separate daily driver" thing for 6 years from 2011 to 2017. But with my short commute, it just didn't make sense. If I lived in CO Springs and had to commute to Denver every day, it would absolutely make sense but 20 miles round trip x 3 days a week (I work from home the other two) isn't enough driving to justify the "transactional costs" of a 2nd car (much as I'd love to have something with a manual transmission to zoom around in - I guess I'll have to be content with the motorcycles for my manual trans thrills.)
Still on the fence between Ram 1500 Hemi or Ford EcoBoost. The Ram seems to be the more conservative choice and I generally tend to be more conservative with my vehicle picks. That the Ram is cheaper is also a factor, though the flip side of that is whether it will "go the distance" for 10+ years.
Nothing is a guarantee, but it is more likely for a Dodge v8 to go 10 years than a Ford eco boost
Just throwing this out there:
Commute via motorbike 90% of the time, on bad days take new truck. Truck economy won't matter then, and you get seat time on the bike.
If we're going to throw outside of the box ideas around, you could buy a plot of land that you love for the price of the truck, then borrow a truck to tow your trailer up there once, or build a little structure. Never have to find a spot in the middle of the night again.
I think someone threw away the box.
I think someone threw away the box.
Pretty sure there's a thread around here on keeping or tossing the boxes.
XC700116
08-02-2019, 22:13
Current vehicle is an 04 Suburban 1500 LT, 4x4, 5.3 with 3.73 gears.
Currently at 186k miles. It's in decent shape overall and I've put a lot of work into it (mild lift, 33" tires, dual battery setup so I can run a refrigerator, stereo with Bluetooth and a big TruCool transmission cooler.)
The 5.3 is a reliable engine, no doubt, but in terms of power, it's marginal at best, especially when towing at Colorado altitudes. We camp 14 - 16 times a year and most of those trips require climbing a high pass.
I don't necessarily mind sitting in the slow lane when climbing a pass but when VW buses are whizzing by me it's a little embarrassing.
The 4L60 transmission isn't much help.
Much as I like the 'Burb (and I do), I really think it's time for a new truck. I bought this one 3 1/2 years ago with 136k on it but I really need to get something with low miles and then my plan is to keep it at least until I retire which is about 7 years away (and ideally longer than that.)
As I said, right now it's pretty much between the Ram 1500 with the V8 and the F-150 with the Ecoboost 2.7.
Funny, I used to be a Toyota guy but the Tundra doesn't appeal to me at all. Ditto for the Nissan Titan.
Honestly, skip the 2.7 and go with the 3.5 or the 5.0 V8. I went with the 5.0 and have zero complaints, plenty of power for normal towing 5-6K (I don't care what the sticker says that's more than enough for a half ton to be towing) , and gets as good or better mileage as the ecoboost motors. I've got 66K miles on my 2016 and have had zero problems with it. Before this I had an 05 with the 5.4 and towed with it nearly every weekend towing a 24ft enclosed trailer with 3 snowmobiles a 55gal drum of race fuel and all the gear for 3 guys to ride and camp all weekend without issue. The new 5.0 will whip it's ass 6 ways to sunday. The new transmissions are very good and the new 10 speed that's in the half tons will make pulling the passes much better. (even the 6 speed in the 14-18 models is worlds better than the old 4 speeds)
Yes tow/haul will downshift to help keep the speed in check BUT if you're pulling too much weight you'll quickly find it revving the piss out of the motor and you're going to be on the brakes. There's only so much drag a naturally aspirated gasser can do to slow a load down going downhill.
I have a 06 5.4 with the 4 speed. Can attest to the above as far as the transmission doing MUCH better in my 14 3.5 eco
BladesNBarrels
08-03-2019, 08:31
....
So she drove the Suburban pulling the 3500lb camper and as soon as I got to the campsite she said "dude, you need a new truck! That one is a dog!" I think it was going up 285 from Morrison or maybe Kenosha Pass that did it for her - 30mph and straining in 1st gear!
This is on top of the transmission taking a dump in Utah in May, which cost us 2 extra days and nearly $4k for a new tranny. ...
Wow, that must be a real dog. I had a '89 Suburban that I used to pull a 30' 5,700 lb cabin cruiser on a 3 axle trailer over Berthoud Pass to Lake Granby.
It was 2-wheel drive with oil and transmission coolers, but it pulled with no problem.
I like the protected storage of the Suburban, but you could do that with a "topper"
Pretty sure there's a thread around here on keeping or tossing the boxes.
This was 'by design'. You get a cookie.
Trigger Time 23
08-05-2019, 14:10
I thought the tow/haul mode automatically stepped down the gears to slow you on a long decline? Do you have the 6 or the 10 speed?
WRT the cost/benefit of a bigger truck, I crunched the numbers there too. A 3/4 ton Ram would be more than I need and the thing about a bigger truck is that EVERYTHING about them is more expensive: Tires, maintenance parts, fuel, etc. If I pulled a big 5th wheel or something of course I'd have a bigger truck (funny story, though, last weekend we were camping near Jefferson and I saw an F-150 long-bed crew-cab pulling a 5th wheel. I don't think I've ever seen a half ton pull a 5th wheel before!)
Unfortunately, there's no "perfect" solution. If it was just me I'd still be driving a 4runner and sleeping in the back but I think we all know the saying "happy wife/happy life." Wife wants/needs the trailer to go camping so that's what we have.
As I said earlier in the thread, I did the "separate daily driver" thing for 6 years from 2011 to 2017. But with my short commute, it just didn't make sense. If I lived in CO Springs and had to commute to Denver every day, it would absolutely make sense but 20 miles round trip x 3 days a week (I work from home the other two) isn't enough driving to justify the "transactional costs" of a 2nd car (much as I'd love to have something with a manual transmission to zoom around in - I guess I'll have to be content with the motorcycles for my manual trans thrills.)
Still on the fence between Ram 1500 Hemi or Ford EcoBoost. The Ram seems to be the more conservative choice and I generally tend to be more conservative with my vehicle picks. That the Ram is cheaper is also a factor, though the flip side of that is whether it will "go the distance" for 10+ years.
It is the 10 speed, and it does step down gears. On the steeper declines though I need to tap brakes more than I would like at times. Maybe I am just a sissy!
Martinjmpr
08-05-2019, 15:23
It is the 10 speed, and it does step down gears. On the steeper declines though I need to tap brakes more than I would like at times. Maybe I am just a sissy!
Can't you just manually shift down? That's what I do now. Drop it from 3rd to 2nd when descending a steep hill.
Can't you just manually shift down? That's what I do now. Drop it from 3rd to 2nd when descending a steep hill.
As long as you remember that you did that. I was down shifting to slow when pulling my little trailer with my Amigo last month coming back from Wyoming. I got distracted and took off from a light and got up to about 60 mph before I realized I was still in second gear. I'm sure a newer vehicle is more user friendly though.
XC700116
08-05-2019, 16:17
Can't you just manually shift down? That's what I do now. Drop it from 3rd to 2nd when descending a steep hill.
Yes you can, but most people don't do it enough ahead of time to and the momentum is already rolling too much to get it slowed down without over-revving so you need to tap the brakes.
I have to manually downshift my company truck going uphill. I was going up highway 85 into a stiff headwind one morning last week and it wouldn?t hold the speed limit in fourth, fifth, or sixth gear. I stuck her in third and it kept it in the meaty part of the powerband at a steady 5500 rpm.
ColoradoTJ
08-07-2019, 07:14
Martin, I wouldn’t hesitate to buy either the 2.7L EB or a new Ram 1500. The weight your pulling, this will not be an issue. A good friend of mine has two 2.7L EB trucks and really likes them for his lighter towing (5k or so).
A diesel for you would be a poor choice from the reasons you pointed out already.
Now if you pulled 10-15k miles and 9-14k lbs like I do all year long, I would have total different options listed out.
SouthPaw
08-07-2019, 12:39
Resale will be better on the 3.5L as well.
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