View Full Version : Ohio shooting
Very little info right now.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/multiple-people-reportedly-shot-in-dayton-ohio
BPTactical
08-04-2019, 06:04
9 dead, 26 wounded.
AR used.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist but.....
I'm not a conspiracy theorist but.....
My first thought after WTF.
I thought this was going to be about the time the National Guard killed people exercising their 1st Amendment rights.
9 dead, 26 wounded.
AR used.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist but.....
Agree, these shootings are very suspicious. Somebody's pulling puppet strings.
https://www.foxnews.com/health/ohio-citys-ban-on-hiring-smokers-vapers-could-be-slippery-slope-some-fear
Maybe he was denied a city job for smoking...
BPTactical
08-04-2019, 07:22
NRA imploding, gun lobby is weak right now
Dems have shitty candidates and debates have been dismal, none are capable of ousting Trump
Force Trump to act on substantial gun control, he will lose a marked portion of his voting bloc
2 shootings (Gilroy & El Paso) utilize virtually identical weapons (WASR 10, underfolder and fixed)
El Paso shooter travels 600 miles to do his deed and leaves anti immigrant manifesto
Ohio shooting takes place less than 24 hours after El Paso incident
Once is an occurence
Twice is a coincidence
Thrice is fucky
You know what they say about threes.....
They're terrible.
(inappropriate time for a dad joke, I know)
I think we can drop the repeat conspiratory rhetoric, can't we? Unless we're trying to get our entertainment from Irving.
As with any other ill founded realm of tin foil, ask yourself: How much human resources would it take to undertake such a thing, and how much risk would they be exposed to by doing it?
Remember, two people or more working on something and you're guaranteed some millennial's going to blab about it on twitter. The risk they would be exposed to would be the total, permanent loss of their platform. Nope, it's not a conspiracy.
Simple mathematics (even ignoring the psychology of copycats etc.) will inevitably result in any random numerical set exhibiting some clustering. And ever day of the year is close to another day of the year, and things have to be scheduled on days. Who knew.
I wish everyone would stop politicizing these and we'd just repeatedly brain-scan the surviving shooters until they got stage 4 cancer.
BPTactical
08-04-2019, 08:38
^^^
Dont you dare throw logic and rational reasoning into this!
I just went to Sam's Club and got 5 rolls of heavy duty Reynolds Wrap for $2.
NRA imploding, gun lobby is weak right now
Dems have shitty candidates and debates have been dismal, none are capable of ousting Trump
Force Trump to act on substantial gun control, he will lose a marked portion of his voting bloc
2 shootings (Gilroy & El Paso) utilize virtually identical weapons (WASR 10, underfolder and fixed)
El Paso shooter travels 600 miles to do his deed and leaves anti immigrant manifesto
Ohio shooting takes place less than 24 hours after El Paso incident
Once is an occurence
Twice is a coincidence
Thrice is fucky
1) NRA's own fault. Once they started wading into the culture war bullshit more than absolutely necessary they turned themselves from a disliked lobbying group that democratic politicians in more moderate areas had to be wary of and pay some lip service to (or at least lip service to gun rights) into an enemy that will cost them votes and donations if they're seen as cozy with at all.
2). Your opinion. I'm guessing if you asked a lot of democrats they're liking some of their options. Remember how insane the 2016 republican primary was before writing them off.
3) Trump has already unilaterally taken anti-gun action and has made repeated anti-2A comments when it suits him. "Take the guns then due process", silencers, bump stocks, etc. Gun voters seem perfectly fine to write this off and keep supporting him.
4) AKs and ARs are generally what people use for these massacres for the same reason they (and their descendants or variants) are used for military, law enforcement, and home defense. We can pretend all we want that this guy could do the same thing with an SKS or one of those old semi-auto Remington hunting rifles, but any nefarious action or even normal three gun competition shows that the AR/AK platforms are what someone would be most successful with. Claiming this as a conspiracy point would be similar to making a point if the three shooters drove a Camry, a Corolla, and an Accord, when they're some of the most common vehicles on the road.
5) Wonder if the last several years of increasingly demonizing immigrants (especially on the southern border), blaming them for our societal ills, and using them to inspire fear as a way to deflect someones base away from unconformable other topics might have something to do with a similarly minded nutjob driving hours to a border town to carry out his murder spree rather than doing it in his community?
I'm using this as a place for a general discussion rather than anything personally directed. It's much easier for people to believe there is some massive democratic/conspiracy rather than that there are people, some of whom take inspiration from a political movement you may or may not support, that need very little pushing to do something truly evil. Truth is, democrats don't need more shootings to pass gun laws where/when they take power. We've done an absolutely terrible job as gun owners with outreach or trying to keep guns as their own thing rather than just something to be lumped in with abortion, tax cuts, and other republican issues. If they have the support to get elected, they have the support to get the bills passed.
hollohas
08-04-2019, 09:09
Something being connected doesn't mean it has to be a "massive" conspiracy. A half dozen people who have never met but communicate in a private online chat room could plan to do something bad without anyone else ever knowing they discussed it. Did it happen here? Maybe not likely but we'll never know. The point is it does happen.
Look at the flash mobs that rob Walgreens? Dozens of kids show up to rob the place at the same time. No one knows it going to happen and I've never heard of anyone figuring out who was the master minds. Happens somewhat frequently. Why is it so hard to believe that murders just might plan together too?
You really think the nut job in El Paso never chatted with like minded individuals online? Do you really think it's unlikely he never said "I'm going to do something about it" to his group of like minded individuals? Do you really think it's impossible he never said "you should too" to those same people? Do you really think there aren't people somewhere online saying "let's do this, it will force changes"...? There are people just like him out there.
Connected doesn't mean conspiracy.
Are these connected? Who knows. But it shouldn't be so easily dismissed.
An observation as well: Per capita, the rates of mass casualty incidents* in Asian countries is substantially lower than our own. Their rate of anti-personality disorder is also substantially lower. So do Asians have the best jeans? Well, some of them look pretty nice in jeans, but no. When the same Asian people(s) live in America, they have the same rate of anti-personality disorder we do.
To that degree, it can be attributed almost entirely to differences in broad culture. And I STRONGLY recommend people research for themselves the differences between US and CH culture as an example, because it cannot be not boiled down to "those red bastards" nor can it be called inferior. Here's some examples:
In China:
1) They have incredibly strong familial bonds with their parents, which exceed all other relationships. If I give you a scenario, and say "a van full of your parents, siblings, and your beautiful wife veers off a bridge and into a river. Who do you save first?".
The American answers "my spouse"
The Zhōnggu? r?n answers "my mother" and is disgusted by the American's response.
2) They have no retirement system, you depend on your kid(s) for retirement. That is the driving force for their educational drive and prowess, and the parents invest everything they can muster for their kids success. Conversely, In America, school is mostly about independence, fashion and friends.
3) Parents can sue their children if their children fail to visit or provide that support.
3) Chinese people don't give trophy's for participation (unless the kid is some special member of the communist party). They don't value "self esteem" and "ego". They value collectivism, e.g. "what can you do for (your village) or (your country)."
4) They also don't screw around. For instance, a U.S. tourist's camera was stolen while aboard a train. They stopped the train, searched passengers until they found the camera, and then pulled the suspect off and shot him.
5) Yet, on the side note, they also overlook almost everything. Laws prohibit all kinds of stuff in china, including the way most of their commerce and shops presently operate. Low level scams are far more abundant there than here, and there's little enforcement or even reporting.
Obviously, not all of the differences are good, #3 is probably the biggest influence for reduced rates of the types of disorders that produce psychopaths. It's likely that they have the same genetic rates, they just present differently because their culture doesn't value entitled narcissists and shitheads very much. Here, we idolize that type as the perfect example of the American dream.
Something being connected doesn't mean it has to be a "massive" conspiracy. A half dozen people who have never met but communicate in a private online chat room could plan to do something bad without anyone else ever knowing they discussed it. Did it happen here? Maybe not likely but we'll never know. The point is it does happen.
Look at the flash mobs that rob Walgreens? Dozens of kids show up to rob the place at the same time. No one knows it going to happen and I've never heard of anyone figuring out who was the master minds. Happens somewhat frequently. Why is it so hard to believe that murders just might plan together too?
You really think the nut job in El Paso never chatted with like minded individuals online? Do you really think it's unlikely he never said "I'm going to do something about it" to his group of like minded individuals? Do you really think it's impossible he never said "you should too" to those same people? Do you really think there aren't people somewhere online saying "let's do this, it will force changes"...? There are people just like him out there.
Connected doesn't mean conspiracy.
Are these connected? Who knows. But it shouldn't be so easily dismissed.
Even that can be relatively well dismissed. There's little doubt that online activity can "radicalizes" the extremist of all types, but not in a tight conspiracy way. The probability of any kind of computer activity eventually getting discovered - at least after the fact - is almost all but guaranteed. I'm only aware of a single example of a suspect that could be alleged to have the skill and resources to pull off the digital work necessary to go dark (the Las Vegas shooter). It's not easy. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but yeah, it means that for 99.9999% of the public, if you do something, they will have your search history going back to 1995, together with pretty much all your online activity, and will be able to track the Nigerian scammer down that messaged you in 1998 if they want to.
Great-Kazoo
08-04-2019, 09:20
You know what they say about threes.....
They're terrible.
(inappropriate time for a dad joke, I know)
I think we can drop the repeat conspiratory rhetoric, can't we? Unless we're trying to get our entertainment from Irving.
As with any other ill founded realm of tin foil, ask yourself: How much human resources would it take to undertake such a thing, and how much risk would they be exposed to by doing it?
Remember, two people or more working on something and you're guaranteed some millennial's going to blab about it on twitter. The risk they would be exposed to would be the total, permanent loss of their platform. Nope, it's not a conspiracy.
.
Simple mathematics (even ignoring the psychology of copycats etc.) will inevitably result in any random numerical set exhibiting some clustering. And ever day of the year is close to another day of the year, and things have to be scheduled on days. Who knew.
I wish everyone would stop politicizing these and we'd just repeatedly brain-scan the surviving shooters until they got stage 4 cancer.
Actually i'll disagree with this. You can get an antifa mob within an hours time . Between tweets, and other social media, it happens when the opposing team is waiting for the call. IMO it's pre-planned and takes off from there. Look at these spontaneous anti trump protest after the election. Full color posters, pink hats etc. There's an overt attempt to unseat the administration as well as push as tough a gun confiscation as possible. before the 2020 election
Hell the antifa crowd is ready to rock in Tx as we type. They've issued a call to action nationwide. Under the banner of Stop Racism and Facisim.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-lt-gov-warns-antifa-080400708.html
[snip]
5) Wonder if the last several years of increasingly demonizing immigrants (especially on the southern border), blaming them for our societal ills, and using them to inspire fear as a way to deflect someones base away from unconformable other topics might have something to do with a similarly minded nutjob driving hours to a border town to carry out his murder spree rather than doing it in his community?
[snip]
ILLEGAL immigrants have been openly discussed in a negative way since the 1980s. Probably earlier but I'm not old enough to recall.
Don't fall for that "immigrant hate" narrative. It's always been illegal immigrants because they do have a profoundly negative impact on the US and a greater negative impact on economically fragile communities. They create a subclass that is economically and politically exploited--don't even think for a second this is humanitarian. And you'd be dishonest to try and dispute any of this.
Mexican nationals shopping at a Walmart here is fine. American nationals shopping in Mexico is fine. No serious person is upset about that.
The Left's plan to through open the borders and replace US citizens is the difference. Never before have we had major mainstream candidates openly state there should be no borders, social programs for all (using our paychecks), and actively work to defraud Americans of "democratic" self-determination. Those same people want the ideas that wrecked these home nations here in the US, imposed on all of us. This is why there is no effort to integrate and assimilate.
Legal = assimilation
Illegal = no assimilation
How does anyone address this and keep it all positive?
I don't personally blame illegals, btw. I blame the politicians/judges (birthright citizenship).
An observation as well: Per capita, the rates of mass casualty incidents* in Asian countries is substantially lower than our own. Their rate of anti-personality disorder is also substantially lower. So do Asians have the best jeans? Well, some of them look pretty nice in jeans, but no. When the same Asian people(s) live in America, they have the same rate of anti-personality disorder we do.
To that degree, it can be attributed almost entirely to differences in broad culture. And I STRONGLY recommend people research for themselves the differences between US and CH culture as an example, because it cannot be not boiled down to "those red bastards" nor can it be called inferior. Here's some examples:
In China:
[snip]
Yes, culture/values.
But China isn't a good example of what I'd want. 60,000,000 people murdered, forced abortions, buried-alive/left for dead baby girls, prison organ harvesting (alive)... Yeah, I can call that inferior.
Japan is interesting but then they have the suicide problem and associated "lost generation." And let's not forget WWII and our protection since.
You want strong families and high investment in children, you don't have to look to Asia. We had that here in the US until the Boomer Libs' sexual revolution. We had guns over the mantle, in the back of pickups. We had guns for sale in the hardware stores, no age limits/BGCs. We didn't have mass shootings.
Most families (of all backgrounds) sat in the pews on Sunday. Dad worked a solid week. Mom was always there. No fault divorce wasn't a thing. Drug war wasn't a thing. We fought and won two world wars with that culture. Industrial revolution, creation of middle class, even the founding of this nation as a Republic, all with that culture.
I find it hard to compare the US to any contemporary nation that isn't facing a long-running demoralization effort by Libs now using an outgroup. This is fairly unique to us as it's been going on for decades. Usually, in history, it comes to blows and is recorded as a revolution/civil war (depending on the outcome). Someone loses, someone wins, and it's settled.
Every generation pulls at the mores of the earlier. I doubt there hasn't been a time in the last two thousand years that the status quo hasn't been under attack by the equivalent of "liberals". I also don't elevate Chinese culture, beyond our own, but awareness beyond our border helps to better understand what's wrong, and it's not just mere liberals. I think even down to the foundation way we do early learning is highly flawed. The way we teach children is screwed from the inset, based on ancient crap logic. [Don't do bad things, cause the god/santa/elf/NSA is watching you!] as opposed to developing, you know, empathy. And I'm not attacking religion there, it can coexist with an empathy strategy, but almost nobody teaches it in that fashion. It's rather bizarre that we teach children here not to be bad because they might get caught. When they test it, and find out they don't get caught, well... there goes that strategy.
How many Americans even know what critical actions in early child development form empathy? I'm pretty sure less than 1%.
It's also easy to get nostalgic and think things were better in the past, but we still had mass killings and much of the underlying issues then (they just didn't guarantee as much media infamy, so the occurrence was slightly less often, and fewer shitheads had the idea). Things weren't better in the "good ol days" nor have they ever been, it's just different. Every generation waxes and wanes with new problems.
ETA: To answer the empathy question, I intend to do a long writeup in the future. In a TLDR way: Expressing empathy to babies and young toddlers is very, very, very important. I cannot express it enough. They learn to mimic it from you and then it becomes real after that. What some people think is "babying" or spoiling is a key component to the earliest child developing independent empathy, and once the milestones pass, the ability to develop real empathy (e.g. also a well developed conscience) largely goes away and becomes impossible. Babies that have very little human contact in infancy or get their attachment screwed up end up with huge cascading effects in their lifetime, a large reason why a lot of adopted kids from certain places are never "right". If your marriage sucks when you have a newborn, SUCK IT UP BUTTERCUP. People think it's okay to divorce around young babies because they won't remember it. yet, it's the period of their life (attachment) that it'll actually f' them up the most.
So, if you want good kids, don't bother with elf-on-the-shelf bullshit. Baby the crap out of them when they are babies, give them exaggerated emotional support for their owies and tears when they're little, and then exaggerate your owies so they mirror and express the same for you. BOOM. There's a kid that will never murder someone else, and they're on the road to being very polite and caring with almost no effort on your part.
This is obviously very, very complex and I can't just sum it up in a paragraph, but just passing it along for parents with very young kids who aren't aware of this now.
ETA 2:) Also with very young babies, I'm not an advocate of letting them "cry it out" unless absolutely necessary (e.g. parent is running on bare threads). Sure, they develop some empathy with some attachment and some empathy expressed to them. So no, letting them cry it out isn't going to make them start whacking people indiscriminately. But because the window to develop this is so freaking small, and the period is so important, why not maximize the opportunity and mileage in developing their empathy. Giving them comfort and support when they are crying is how they learn to feel. Don't worry about spoiling, psychologically, it's impossible to spoil a young baby. You can use the cry-it-out stuff and other techniques when they are just a little older.
People will always find a way. Immigrants in Germany and all over the UK are killing people almost daily. Just yesterday I saw one where there was an argument from roommates, the Syrian guy took a huge sword (like the style you see in the movie Aladdin) stabbed the roommate multiple times in the street then hacked his arm off and fled.
Knife attacks are up in huge numbers there.
Or people getting pushed in front of trains.
It’s the mental state of people who somehow think this stuff is ok or justified
People will always find a way. Immigrants in Germany and all over the UK are killing people almost daily. Just yesterday I saw one where there was an argument from roommates, the Syrian guy took a huge sword (like the style you see in the movie Aladdin) stabbed the roommate multiple times in the street then hacked his arm off and fled.
Knife attacks are up in huge numbers there.
Or people getting pushed in front of trains.
It’s the mental state of people who somehow think this stuff is ok or justified
Sometimes I think the mental state of those people is that the consequences really just don’t matter or apply to them.
spittoon
08-04-2019, 10:22
Agree, these shootings are very suspicious. Somebody's pulling puppet strings.
AGREE
Firehaus
08-04-2019, 10:35
You know what they say about threes.....
They're terrible.
(inappropriate time for a dad joke, I know)
I think we can drop the repeat conspiratory rhetoric, can't we? Unless we're trying to get our entertainment from Irving.
As with any other ill founded realm of tin foil, ask yourself: How much human resources would it take to undertake such a thing, and how much risk would they be exposed to by doing it?
Remember, two people or more working on something and you're guaranteed some millennial's going to blab about it on twitter. The risk they would be exposed to would be the total, permanent loss of their platform. Nope, it's not a conspiracy.
Is this cognitive dissonance or what you tell yourself so you can sleep better at night?
There?s wearing the tinfoil hat to keep them from reading your thoughts, and there is wearing the tinfoil to keep out anything that causes cognitive dissonance.
Have you ever researched when the term ?conspiracy theory? became widely used in the english language?
How many people work at the military, fbi, cia, nsa, etcetera without leaking classified info?
What are the odds of being in one mass shooting event, let alone people being present in multiple mass shooting events in different states? Or even in the same city at the same time of an event to be interviewed about it?
Shooters in therapy / on psychotropic drugs?
Ever pay attention to what else is going on in the news cycle politically that they might want to distract from?
There?s more to some of these events than just coincidence.
Good & Evil are real.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
BushMasterBoy
08-04-2019, 10:37
Facebook and Instagram are reporting extreme outages of processing ability.
Facebook and Instagram are reporting extreme outages of processing ability.
I'm surprised by the overwhelming anti-gun control comments on the local news channel's pages on these stories. Anti gunners are being attacked with logic.
Maybe because FB is for old out of touch white men now?
How many people work at the military, fbi, cia, nsa, etcetera without leaking classified info?
What are the odds of being in one mass shooting event, let alone people being present in multiple mass shooting events in different states? Or even in the same city at the same time of an event to be interviewed about it?
Shooters in therapy / on psychotropic drugs?
Ever pay attention to what else is going on in the news cycle politically that they might want to distract from?
There?s more to some of these events than just coincidence.
Good & Evil are real.
You know those times when you don't want to say something out loud because you know it sounds insane and its not grounded in any logic at all, but you just "feel" like it's correct? And then you say it out loud?
First, select aspects of my response is obviously tongue in cheek, such as one out of two. [facepalm]If there is any connection, it will come out. It's almost impossible for the average "citizen" to go dark online. They don't have the skills. The mathematical chance of there being any connection is ever so slightly above zero. Every time you guys come out of the wood works swearing its a conspiracy, just as the left comes out of the wood works swearing its about guns. The ratio of both sides being correct is about 0%, thus far. And no, even on the national level, we don't keep secrets terribly well. Some individuals do. Some don't. Example A: Congress. Most of the ones that do leak it obviously don't run to the press, they share something with someone close to them. It's still a leak. It just doesn't "escape". The difference is, when stabby McStab Stanley leaks something to someone else, and he goes and stabby stabs a bunch of people, those people are pretty motivated to share information. Via one method or another.
And on the level of millennial aged angst shooters? Yeah, sure, a whole group of them can totally maintain better secure comms than the US Gov' and resist investigative manipulation better than our trained agents without any education or personal experience. Those skills just pop out of nowhere. Can you people hear yourselves?
As far as your chances, 12.7% of the US population took SSRI's in the last month, by example. If we take a mass shootings at a large music festival..say like the one in Las Vegas with 22,000 people in attendance, that is 1:14,363 American's that was "at" that single mass shooting. If there was only one other shooting in the history of our country, and it was also a music festival; on average between one to two people would have been at the prior "mass shooting". In reality, because people who like things tend to do those things more often than other people who don't like those things, you'd probably see 10-15+ people from the prior "mass shooting" at another "mass shooting" of a music festival that size. I'm not going to spend my life debunking the rest of your mathematical assertion because it's not grounded in any logic. Between hundreds to many thousands of people "are part", e.g. witness each shooting, so yes, several of them will statistically be involved in others.
Some people have also survived two helicopter crashes in under 24 hours. But yet, your odds of your helicopter crashing are phenomenally low. CONSPIRACY
Good & Evil are real.
It's ironic that almost every mass killer thinks they are "good" in their minds eye. Each side of a war generally thinks they are the "good" guys.
Maybe "Good" and "Evil" are just concepts, hmm?
Personality disorders are real.
Empathy is real.
Kindness is real.
Murder is real.
"Good" and "Evil" are not "real", they are mere concepts in the eye of the individual beholder and the judge; to which segments of society often roughly agree on what constitutes "good" and "bad".
You know those times when you don't want to say something out loud because you know it sounds insane and its not grounded in any logic at all, but you just "feel" like it's correct? And then you say it out loud?
First, select aspects of my response is obviously tongue in cheek, such as one out of two. [facepalm]If there is any connection, it will come out. It's almost impossible for the average "citizen" to go dark online. They don't have the skills. The mathematical chance of there being any connection is ever so slightly above zero. Every time you guys come out of the wood works swearing its a conspiracy, just as the left comes out of the wood works swearing its about guns. The ratio of both sides being correct is about 0%, thus far. And no, even on the national level, we don't keep secrets terribly well. Some individuals do. Some don't. Example A: Congress. Most of the ones that do leak it obviously don't run to the press, they share something with someone close to them. It's still a leak. It just doesn't "escape". The difference is, when stabby McStab Stanley leaks something to someone else, and he goes and stabby stabs a bunch of people, those people are pretty motivated to share information. Via one method or another.
And on the level of millennial aged angst shooters? Yeah, sure, a whole group of them can totally maintain better secure comms than the US Gov' and resist investigative manipulation better than our trained agents without any education or personal experience. Those skills just pop out of nowhere. Can you people hear yourselves?
As far as your chances, 12.7% of the US population took SSRI's in the last month, by example. If we take a mass shootings at a large music festival..say like the one in Las Vegas with 22,000 people in attendance, that is 1:14,363 American's that was "at" that single mass shooting. If there was only one other shooting in the history of our country, and it was also a music festival; on average between one to two people would have been at the prior "mass shooting". In reality, because people who like things tend to do those things more often than other people who don't like those things, you'd probably see 10-15+ people from the prior "mass shooting" at another "mass shooting" of a music festival that size. I'm not going to spend my life debuning the rest of your mathmatical assertion because it's not grounded in any logic. Between hundreds to many thousands of people "are part", e.g. witness each shooting, so yes, several of them will statistically be involved in others.
Some people have also survived two helicopter crashes in under 24 hours. But yet, your odds of your helicopter crashing are phenomenally low. CONSPIRACY
I?m old enough to remember Operation Fast and Furious. I think a lot of us knew what was up with that story as soon as it broke, or at least our guts did. That story was widely reported on, and still was swept under the rug. You?d have a hard time convincing me that some of the most public individuals in this country didn?t engage in a conspiracy to enact gun control by creating a problem of gun violence to be publicized and politicized.
The thing with talk about conspiracy theories is that one day, there WILL be something that fits the mold and is found out. Statistics work that way as well. All it takes is the validity of a single event to cast all others into doubt. That's all fine and well, except it isn't, because it distorts how people look at what's really happening, and distracts from ever making a real attempt at getting to the root of what is going on.
I think that we've unfortunately entered a period in history where indiscriminate shooting of the public has become a popular fad. Everyone is too busy trying to pound these events into their own special mold to use as propaganda to drive the political changes that they want, that the actual issue, and whether it can even be remedied, is being completely ignored.
Nothing, nothing , is ever black and white, so any suggestion that begins with, "It's simple, just do X and Y won't happen." Is irresponsibly lazy and an insult to the problem itself and especially those affected by it. That goes for immigration, public shootings, vaccines, NASA, climate change, etc.
I?m old enough to remember Operation Fast and Furious. I think a lot of us knew what was up with that story as soon as it broke, or at least our guts did. That story was widely reported on, and still was swept under the rug. You?d have a hard time convincing me that some of the most public individuals in this country didn?t engage in a conspiracy to enact gun control by creating a problem of gun violence to be publicized and politicized.
Just on face value, creating a gun problem to help a political gun control campaign by giving guns to another country seems like quite the long way around. Like selling China all our top secret coal mining Intel to influence environmental policies at home.
The thing with talk about conspiracy theories is that one day, there WILL be something that fits the mold and is found out. Statistics work that way as well. All it takes is the validity of a single event to cast all others into doubt. That's all fine and well, except it isn't, because it distorts how people look at what's really happening, and distracts from ever making a real attempt at getting to the root of what is going on.
I think that we've unfortunately entered a period in history where indiscriminate shooting of the public has become a dad. Everyone is too busy trying to pound these events into their own special mold to use as propaganda to drive the political changes that they want, that the actual issue, and whether it can even be remedied, is being completely ignored.
Nothing, nothing , is ever black and white, so any suggestion that begins with, "It's simple, just do X and Y won't happen." Is irresponsibly lazy and an insult to the problem itself and especially those affected by it. That goes for immigration, public shootings, vaccines, NASA, climate change, etc.
I could apply almost all of those points to the fall out from my last romantic relationship...
I’m old enough to remember Operation Fast and Furious. I think a lot of us knew what was up with that story as soon as it broke, or at least our guys did. That story was widely reported on, and still swept under the rug. You’d have a hard time convincing me that some of the most public individuals in this country didn’t engage in a conspiracy to enact gun control by creating a problem of gun violence to be publicized and politicized.
There is a lot of systematic corruption inside our government, as in any other. However, when considering whether or not to give a conspiracy theory any credibility, one needs to consider the human capital needed to invest into it, against the possibility of leaks, against the risk if it is leaked.
Fast & Furious involved many several law enforcement professionals under a directive to let firearms be smuggled into Mexico to try to track and take out higher levels of the smuggling operation. That is an objective that even a lot of conservative law enforcement professionals are REALLY familiar with. You let some drugs get passed around the community and don't arrest the informant on the corner, because you want the big guys. That objective could have masked a second, tertiary political motive.
Now, lets talk about some secret democrat conspiracy to brainwash young adult millennial with angst. How do they know the dudes going to go through with it? Shit, now they're going to need a suicide vest, because if he gets captured, he's not trained in investigative techniques and will tell them about Nancy Palosi's hidden underground bunker where they were in padded cells with speakers repeating "kill kill kill ar ar ar kill kill kill ar ar ar". And what is the risk if they get found out? Oh shit, the entire democratic party wouldn't survive that conspiracy!
It's also a lot harder to get people reliably behind "hey lets randomly get people and kids murdered". Funny, how that works.
Yeah. Can we stop. Use your heads. Why do I have to explain this? You people should be able to rule it out all by yourselves.
1) How much human capital would have to be invested.
2) What would be the possibility of leaks.
3) What other weaknesses would the conspiracy necessarily entail.
4) What would be the fallout if it's leaked.
5) How long could it go on before it's likely leaked.
Cognitive dissonance is believing this shit BECAUSE you want to believe it, BECAUSE it aligns with what you want to be true. Modifying your reality so you dismiss all logic and facts that disagree with your presumption. E.g. "well, people have TSC's, so clearly it's possible to have a huge conspiracy that's kept secret murdering people randomly".
Critical thinking is analyzing your initial thoughts, logically, as above.
I can't fix flawed logic any more than someone can fix a psychopath with a defective frontal cortex. So, for the people that don't get it.. [beatdeadhorse] sorry, not going to beat the horse anymore. And I do feel sorry for people who can't think beyond the confines of their presumptions.
Anyway, we're struggling so hard to even process what is happening that I had to go and click on the original article I posted for updates of what even happened.
Sounds like around 1am a guy was denied entry to a bar so he went and got a gun and stayed shooting people outside. Sounds like he tried to get into the bar but was stopped at the door, gun taken from him, and shot. I don't know the specifics but it seems like that's what people are reporting.
Rucker61
08-04-2019, 11:31
An observation as well: Per capita, the rates of mass casualty incidents* in Asian countries is substantially lower than our own. .
Perhaps interestingly, Asian-Americans have lower violence rates than the rest of America, but on demographic basis they are over-represented in mass shootings.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/
I think the point, if there is any, is:
A) Stop trying to find all the reasons you can rely on to believe what you innately agree with.
B) Instead, consider the reasons, facts, and perspectives about why you shouldn't believe what you innately agree with.
Here, it seems like the innate thought would stray away from conspiracies, but that's not how the human mind works. You don't like the idea that people just up and murder people just like you, for no reason, and no warning. Even if you know it's true.
But you DO LIKE THE IDEA OF IT DEMONIZING THE OTHER GUYS.
Until people get good at the latter (B); they'll always been manipulated sheep, just of a different color than THE OTHER GUYS.
Perhaps interestingly, Asian-Americans have lower violence rates than the rest of America, but on demographic basis they are over-represented in mass shootings.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/
7 out of 113 in that? Asians are 5.6% of the population, that data set shows they are involved in 6.1% of the USA* based events in that list. On such a low set, I don't think the half a percent is of significance, but if it ever appeared in a larger set it would be of sociological interest.
BPTactical
08-04-2019, 11:44
Just read an unconfirmed report that a 223 AK was used in Ohio.
Conspiracy?
Maybe, maybe not.
But I do feel that there is a certain faction of society that will stop at nothing to attain control and further their agenda.
I put nothing beyond them.
Firehaus
08-04-2019, 12:34
The ratio of both sides being correct is about 0%, thus far. And no, even on the national level, we don't keep secrets terribly well. Some individuals do. Some don't.
0%? Are you sure about that?
Example A: Congress. Most of the ones that do leak it obviously don't run to the press, they share something with someone close to them. It's still a leak.
Your view on leaks not coming directly from politicians seems to be very naive.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/10/john-podesta-emails-wikileaks-press-214367
Can you people hear yourselves?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190804/672f50d5fc36dab155e3f8c27445c3bd.jpg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dude murdered his sister
https://kdvr.com/2019/08/04/ohio-shooters-sister-among-9-victims/
BPTactical
08-04-2019, 12:46
The weird is off the charts
JohnnyDrama
08-04-2019, 12:57
Actually i'll disagree with this. You can get an antifa mob within an hours time . Between tweets, and other social media, it happens when the opposing team is waiting for the call. IMO it's pre-planned and takes off from there. Look at these spontaneous anti trump protest after the election. Full color posters, pink hats etc. There's an overt attempt to unseat the administration as well as push as tough a gun confiscation as possible. before the 2020 election
Hell the antifa crowd is ready to rock in Tx as we type. They've issued a call to action nationwide. Under the banner of Stop Racism and Facisim.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-lt-gov-warns-antifa-080400708.html
MoveOn and WomansMarch started laying the groundwork before the election. I've had a falling out with my associates connected to these organizations but I have a strong suspicion these and similarly minded organizations have only ramped up their rhetoric since January 2017. Think "prayer chains" on social media.
It's ironic that almost every mass killer thinks they are "good" in their minds eye. Each side of a war generally thinks they are the "good" guys.
Maybe "Good" and "Evil" are just concepts, hmm?
Personality disorders are real.
Empathy is real.
Kindness is real.
Murder is real.
"Good" and "Evil" are not "real", they are mere concepts in the eye of the individual beholder and the judge; to which segments of society often roughly agree on what constitutes "good" and "bad".
There are a lot of people out there in very dark places. They know they are in dark places. They have largely given up on trying to find a way out of these places and have come to embrace the darkness.
Just read an unconfirmed report that a 223 AK was used in Ohio.
Conspiracy?
Maybe, maybe not.
But I do feel that there is a certain faction of society that will stop at nothing to attain control and further their agenda.
I put nothing beyond them.
At this point in time I don't think a "conspiracy" in the terms we think of is required. There are enough unhinged people out there that with just the right triggering by different social media groups somebody will go and do something very bad. These people are isolated and feel their only connection with others is through Facebook, Instagram, etc. As for the "certain faction of society" mentioned above, they don't care how many people get hurt or on "who's side" they are.
Facebook and Instagram are reporting extreme outages of processing ability.
See the above reply.
DavieD55
08-04-2019, 14:49
I?m old enough to remember Operation Fast and Furious. I think a lot of us knew what was up with that story as soon as it broke, or at least our guts did. That story was widely reported on, and still was swept under the rug. You?d have a hard time convincing me that some of the most public individuals in this country didn?t engage in a conspiracy to enact gun control by creating a problem of gun violence to be publicized and politicized.
That's a very good point!
It isn't all that difficult to see all the deliberate anti-American propaganda that is being used to whip up all the constant hysteria and the tensions they are manufacturing with their propaganda through the main streram media, social media, and their entertainment.
The left and some of their leaders have been consistently calling for their useful iditos to go out and engauge in acts violence against normal people for a while now. Some of them are at it on an almost daily basis incase y'all haven't noticed.
Just a conspiracy theory my a$$...
conspiracy theory (noun) Merriam
:a theory that explains an event or set of circumstances as the result of a secret plot by usually powerful conspirators
Oxford
:"the theory that an event or phenomenon occurs as a result of a conspiracy between interested parties; spec. a belief that some covert but influential agency (typically political in motivation and oppressive in intent) is responsible for an unexplained event"
Allegations that each side are openly fomenting hate towards each other which results in violence isn't a conspiracy theory.
It's partly, and even possibly largely a result of certain nation states who really like investing a lot of assets in our "free press" and elsewhere to manipulate both sides towards hate; it's an insanely cheap form of asymmetric warfare that we can't retaliate, because all of their press is state controlled under an iron fist. And there's little doubt it has some influence on some fraction of these shootings, such as the El Paso one if the "manifesto" is even true.
So, it's not just a LIBERAL problem. The more we let ourselves be conditioned to absolutely vilify and hate "the other guys".... the more we are mere sheep of a different color. Letting Russia and China herd us around.
Dude murdered his sister
https://kdvr.com/2019/08/04/ohio-shooters-sister-among-9-victims/
Could be the motive. Sis pissed you off...
Firehaus
08-04-2019, 16:27
... such as the El Paso one if the "manifesto" is even true.
Are you alluding that it might be part of a conspiracy?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
eddiememphis
08-04-2019, 16:31
https://drudgereport.com/flashtx.htm
El Paso nutbag's manifesto
Are you alluding that it might be part of a conspiracy?
https://media.makeameme.org/created/oh-no-5c0886.jpg
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/004/905/Get_20to_20the_20Choppa.JPG
I wish that manifesto was fake.
eddiememphis
08-04-2019, 16:46
"My opinions on automation, immigration, and the rest
predate Trump and his campaign for president. I put
ting this here because some people will blame the
President or certain presidential candidates for the attack. This is not the case. I know that the media
will probably call me a white supremacist anyway and blame Trump’s rhetoric. The media is infamous
for fake news. Their reaction to this attack will likely just confirm that."
He was spot on with this point.
However, the boy's got more loose screws than a hardware store.
Snips throughout
Every generation pulls at the mores of the earlier. I doubt there hasn't been a time in the last two thousand years that the status quo hasn't been under attack by the equivalent of "liberals". I also don't elevate Chinese culture, beyond our own, but awareness beyond our border helps to better understand what's wrong, and it's not just mere liberals. I think even down to the foundation way we do early learning is highly flawed. The way we teach children is screwed from the inset, based on ancient crap logic. [Don't do bad things, cause the god/santa/elf/NSA is watching you!] as opposed to developing, you know, empathy. And I'm not attacking religion there, it can coexist with an empathy strategy, but almost nobody teaches it in that fashion. It's rather bizarre that we teach children here not to be bad because they might get caught. When they test it, and find out they don't get caught, well... there goes that strategy.
How many Americans even know what critical actions in early child development form empathy? I'm pretty sure less than 1%.
The 1960s-early 70s were profoundly different for America and correctly called a "revolution." It wasn't just young people testing the waters but for the first time a generation in complete rebellion. The decent Boomers here can easily recall more than I can explain. It was a dark time for this country and the social damage irrepable. It wasn't until decent hard working Boomers established themselves in the 80s that we began to recover, but only by necessity (we could no longer afford Lib politics).
And for the first time, narcissists could openly hate the country and work to destroy it from the inside. Previously such things would have been dealt with swiftly. This counter-culture got us abortion, STDs, Iran/ME crisis, critical race theory, and environmentalism. It provided the genesis for collectivist thought and so many modern collectivists still pull from that period.
Not even the Confederacy sought to do what American Libs tried to do in the 70s.
Who "educated" Millennials and Zers? You think they educated children to know right from wrong or demoralized them and introduced moral relativism? And since moral absolutes were eliminated, how did they deal with exceptional behavior? These can't be moral failures or "the system" is at fault, so there had to be something medically wrong with humans; SSRIs to the rescue!
Xers got a mix of this in ed and that's why many of us just want to be left alone. We don't want to control others and we don't want mandated failure. This was my generation's mistake--believing we could see what was happening, think for ourselves, and just be left alone. We're to blame here too.
It's also easy to get nostalgic and think things were better in the past, but we still had mass killings and much of the underlying issues then (they just didn't guarantee as much media infamy, so the occurrence was slightly less often, and fewer shitheads had the idea). Things weren't better in the "good ol days" nor have they ever been, it's just different. Every generation waxes and wanes with new problems.
The thing that gives gun control advocates credibility is that they have been able to cherry-pick one specific kind of "gun violence" (mass shootings) while keeping larger facts about guns hidden from the public.
Overall, gun violence has been decreasing. And it hasn't been safer to be an American in my lifetime. High schoolers haven't been safer since 1994.
That focus on mass shootings shows a significant increase in frequency and number of causalities. We can't ignore this. Yeah, of course it happened but not like today. Columbine (again, transition from Xers to Millennials) opened the floodgates and it's no coincidence that many killers cite Columbine as part of their motivation.
So no, we didn't have these kinds/frequency of mass killings/shootings until a generation raised by Boomers came of age.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Total_deaths_in_US_mass_shootings.png
https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2015/07/55.png
Were there other problems in the past? Sure. They didn't manifest this way.
Even now there are people struggling with mental health issues, depression, etc... I've had friends/family with issues. Why aren't all of them picking up guns and murdering people? What makes people different?
Let's talk about racism... Is anyone seriously suggesting that racism hasn't existed in the US in the past? Why didn't the racists of the past turn into mass shooters?
Same on the "violent video games" angle..... Millions of kids have and will play violent first-person shooter games. Why aren't they are shooting up a Walmart?
"Incels?" Okay, why aren't they all turning into white supremacists looking for brown people to murder?
It comes down to resistance against Progressivism and maintaining objective morality. I think a lot of that comes from church/religion but it doesn't necessarily have to given good parenting.
Zundfolge
08-04-2019, 17:00
I wish that manifesto was fake.
Yeah, its beginning to look like the El Paso manifesto its real.
That said, the Ohio shooter is a leftist and atheist that hated Trump so the media will clearly state he's a white supremacist, trump supporting NRA member too. Its not like they're going to tell the truth if a lie will fit their agenda better.
https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/connor-betts/
DavieD55
08-04-2019, 17:06
How convenient. Perfect timing.
FBI: Conspiracy Theories Are Now A Domestic Terrorism Threat
By Tyler Durden 8/1/2019 - 18:15
Do you believe in an elite cabal of untouchable oligarchs guiding the course of history via false flags, perpetual war, and covertly funded militant groups? Do you share these beliefs online?
You might just be engaging in domestic terrorism according to the FBI.
A May 30 intelligence bulletin posted by the bureau's Phoenix field office describes "conspiracy theory-driven domestic extremists" as a growing threat, reports Yahoo News (https://news.yahoo.com/fbi-documents-conspiracy-theories-terrorism-160000507.html).
Does the Trump-Russia conspiracy theory peddled by leading Democrats and amplified by the MSM for over two straight years count?
Apparently not, as the document singles out QAnon - "a shadowy network that believes in a deep state conspiracy against President Trump, and Pizzagate, the theory that a pedophile ring including Clinton associates was being run out of the basement of a Washington, D.C., pizza restaurant (which didn?t actually have a basement)," according to the report.
(Except they do (https://zh-prod-1cc738ca-7d3b-4a72-b792-20bd8d8fa069.storage.googleapis.com/s3fs-public/inline-images/download%20-%202019-08-01T130257.216_0.jpg) according to a quote from the owner, James Alefantis, in this 2015 Metro Weekly article (http://archive.is/mjMKG))
The report points to the case of Edgar Maddison Welch, who opened fire in the Comet Ping Pong pizza restaurant at the center of Pizzagate. Welch, who worked for his father's film company - "Forever Young Productions" - walked through the door with an AR-15, "shot off the lock to an inside door, sending a bullet into a computer tower," and told authorities he was there to 'rescue children' (by shooting at a door they might be behind) according to the Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/alleged-gunman-tells-police-he-wanted-to-rescue-children-at-dc-pizza-shop-after-hearing-fictional-internet-accounts/2016/12/05/cb5ebabc-bae8-11e6-ac85-094a21c44abc_story.html).
"The FBI assesses these conspiracy theories very likely will emerge, spread, and evolve in the modern information marketplace, occasionally driving both groups and individual extremists to carry out criminal or violent acts," reads the FBI document, which adds that conspiracy theory-driven extremism is likely to increase during the 2020 presidential election cycle.
The FBI said another factor driving the intensity of this threat is ?the uncovering of real conspiracies or cover-ups involving illegal, harmful, or unconstitutional activities by government officials or leading political figures.? The FBI does not specify which political leaders or which cover-ups it was referring to.
President Trump is mentioned by name briefly in the latest FBI document, which notes that the origins of QAnon is the conspiratorial belief that ?Q,? allegedly a government official, ?posts classified information online to reveal a covert effort, led by President Trump, to dismantle a conspiracy involving ?deep state? actors and global elites allegedly engaged in an international child sex trafficking ring.? -Yahoo News (https://news.yahoo.com/fbi-documents-conspiracy-theories-terrorism-160000507.html)
Nevermind that 'global elite' hobnobber Jeffrey Epstein is currently sitting in a jail cell, accused of literal child sex trafficking, and may have been the subject of an attempted hit (https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-07-30/epstein-danger-being-murdered-powerful-people-his-trial-says-victims-lawyer) last week.
Full Article From ZeroHedge
(https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-08-01/fbi-conspiracy-theories-are-domestic-terrorism-threat)
Not trying to hijack the OP just adding another angle
Good post skip. In case anyone isn't keyed in, I was broadly referring to problems changing, e.g. not limited to the field of guns or mental health.
It's easy to think of the "good" things of the good'ol'days, but we forget the bad. And who knows what influence that bad had on society either way.
Remember how everyone had a "drunk angry dad" and domestic violence against kids/spouses was pretty common place? Remember when teen pregnancies was at an all time high, and sexual abuses were never reported?
Some will say that the lack of "beating kids" is the problem now, but that arguments made with the blinders on.
I would say a problem that a lot of kids have is that they lack a guide for emotional range, because they haven't experienced real problems. Whether or not that correlates into this bigger issue I'm not going to presume; but it sure does elevate the level of Histrionics and psuedo histrionics, and annoying bitching about things. I CANT FIND A PARKING SPOT WAAAA.
Basically we're all capable of the same emotional range, if a person hasn't ever experienced real problems in 20+ years of existence to compare their future problems against, then their emotional range skews from 1:100 over retarded garbage. They can act and feel like their kid just died if someone casually and politely rejects them on a date, for instance.
So ironically, what if one of the causes of these increases in issues isn't due to us being worse than the past, but actually... being better?
Davie:
Sort of on point, but not exactly responding to that, I'm reasonably sure that a large part of Qanon is one of the foreign nation injections I've been talking about. As is a small part of ANTIFA and BLM.
Good post skip. In case anyone isn't keyed in, I was broadly referring to problems changing, e.g. not limited to the field of guns or mental health.
It's easy to think of the "good" things of the good'ol'days, but we forget the bad. And who knows what influence that bad had on society either way.
Remember how everyone had a "drunk angry dad" and domestic violence against kids/spouses was pretty common place? Remember when teen pregnancies was at an all time high, and sexual abuses were never reported?
Some will say that the lack of "beating kids" is the problem now, but that arguments made with the blinders on.
I would say a problem that a lot of kids have is that they lack a guide for emotional range, because they haven't experienced real problems. Whether or not that correlates into this bigger issue I'm not going to presume; but it sure does elevate the level of Histrionics and psuedo histrionics, and annoying bitching about things. I CANT FIND A PARKING SPOT WAAAA.
Basically we're all capable of the same emotional range, if a person hasn't ever experienced real problems in 20+ years of existence to compare their future problems against, then their emotional range skews from 1:100 over retarded garbage. They can act and feel like their kid just died if someone casually and politely rejects them on a date, for instance.
So ironically, what if one of the causes of these increases in issues isn't due to us being worse than the past, but actually... being better?
I think a hallmark of good parenting is producing children that are "well adjusted." Which I take to mean can handle most of life's challenges in spite of not having experienced that specific challenge. 100 years ago kids were getting married at 16, promptly having children, and supporting them with work. They weren't trained for all those challenges and didn't break.
We sent 17+ year olds into battle with 11lbs bolt guns to face gas and arty attacks. How many came back as mass shooters?
And that's the remarkable thing and a great point... I've talked to people who hate God because of the horrible things that have happened in their lives. I don't agree but understand their anger/grief. They still aren't mass shooters.
These kids are inexplicably lost, or intentionally destroyed, mostly without significant challenge. In some cases evil has filled a vacuum.
Another thing to consider... When a human takes a course of action to achieve a stated goal, that is not necessarily mental illness. If a racist murders people of the background he claims to hate, that is not mental illness. That is a rational behavior according to his values.
If someone has committed a mass shooting in hopes of advancing gun control or gaining notoriety, again, perfectly rational behavior.
It's evil.
Tomorrow I think Trump will try to frame this as mental illness and a lot of people will support that but I'm not sure that does anything for us. There is simply too much to be gained from mass shootings for a variety of people for this trend to stop unless we start fighting back (CCW, eliminate GFZs, etc). If he calls for gun control, it will be the same as calling for more mass shootings.
https://imgur.com/Xp04yZx.jpg
Sorry, not reading multi page posts.
Spent 9 years outside of Dayton. Spent some time in the Oregon District. Even wrote a term paper on the historic district. What does this have to do with the egg prices in Hungry? Nothing.
It's sad that family and friends are going home minus someone they love because of some narcissistic, cowardly useless asshole. Plant him face down in a shallow grave.
You guys are working way too hard at this. It was in the first article linked in the thread. It's Trump's fault.
DenverGP
08-04-2019, 19:23
Not a fan of his, but this tweet is pretty accurate. And he's getting ripped apart for it.
https://i.imgur.com/aI8FqNH.jpg
Bailey Guns
08-04-2019, 19:39
I've mostly decided to not even say anything about any of these types of incidents. Not because I don't have anything to say, but because no one really cares for the most part. But, it's kind of cathartic for me when there's really nothing else I can do about things like this that are upsetting. So...
I don't believe this shooting, the one in El Paso, or any of the others are anything more than what they appear to be...the end result of a madman run amok.
Personally, I think these incidents are the result of a hatred so deep (the target of the hatred doesn't matter) that it basically just consumes the person. Combined with the hate is a remarkable lack of any sort of coping mechanism or any sort of logical thought process that might help with problem solving. It's a personal, mental flaw that is so profound it's difficult for "normal" people to process and understand. Frankly, I think that's why the conspiracy theories pop up and the blame game starts. It's a way for people to try to make sense of the non-nonsensical.
Does it really matter if the person is an Obama lover or a Trump hater, a republican or democrat, black or white? I don't think so. I don't think it matters a bit except it provides a convenient excuse for others to foment actions and emotions sympathetic with their pet cause.
It's just sad it comes to this with a small number of people. But the reality is it's always been this way with mankind. The weapons and the scale and the victims and the "cause" may change but the outcome is always the same.
There was another... (back on July 13th)
‘TRAGEDY AVERTED’: Feds Say They Have Thwarted a Mass Shooting Plot In Lubbock, Texas
https://breaking911.com/tragedy-averted-feds-say-they-have-thwarted-a-mass-shooting-plot-in-lubbock-texas/
Mr. Williams later gave officers consent to search the room he’d rented at the hotel, where officers found an AK-47 rifle, seventeen magazines loaded with ammunition, multiple knives, a black trench coat, black tactical pants, a black t-shirt that read “Let ‘Em Come,” and black tactical gloves with the fingers cut off. Mr. Williams told officers he had laid out his weapons on the bed so that law enforcement could take custody of them.
Eight days later, ATF received the firearms transaction form (form 4473) that Williams had completed on July 11, when purchasing the AK-47. On the form, Mr. Williams listed his relatives’ address, where he no longer resided. Agents discovered that although Mr. William’s driver’s license showed the family members’ address, Mr. Williams was actually living with a roommate at a different address, following eviction by his relatives. He had allegedly misrepresented his current address on the firearms transaction form.
kidicarus13
08-04-2019, 20:23
Looks like the shooter's AR had a 10.5" barrel along with a stabilizing brace. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190805/2826d0fd09afb1e12087639f711d0cc8.jpg
hollohas
08-04-2019, 20:53
Looks like the shooter's AR had a 10.5" barrel along with a stabilizing brace. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190805/2826d0fd09afb1e12087639f711d0cc8.jpg
Sent from my SM-G973U using TapatalkOh boy...
hollohas
08-04-2019, 20:56
There is surveillance video here. Shows people running, bullets apparently hitting pavement and police stopping him.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7320897/Police-release-footage-moment-Dayton-gunman-shot-dead-cops-chases-screaming-passersby.html
PS - VERY impressive police response. Really great job.
The "eyewitness" account that a bystander was able to take his rifle and the BG transitioned to a pistol were inaccurate. He still has it in his hands when he went down.
I've mostly decided to not even say anything about any of these types of incidents. Not because I don't have anything to say, but because no one really cares for the most part. But, it's kind of cathartic for me when there's really nothing else I can do about things like this that are upsetting. So...
I don't believe this shooting, the one in El Paso, or any of the others are anything more than what they appear to be...the end result of a madman run amok.
Personally, I think these incidents are the result of a hatred so deep (the target of the hatred doesn't matter) that it basically just consumes the person. Combined with the hate is a remarkable lack of any sort of coping mechanism or any sort of logical thought process that might help with problem solving. It's a personal, mental flaw that is so profound it's difficult for "normal" people to process and understand. Frankly, I think that's why the conspiracy theories pop up and the blame game starts. It's a way for people to try to make sense of the non-nonsensical.
Does it really matter if the person is an Obama lover or a Trump hater, a republican or democrat, black or white? I don't think so. I don't think it matters a bit except it provides a convenient excuse for others to foment actions and emotions sympathetic with their pet cause.
It's just sad it comes to this with a small number of people. But the reality is it's always been this way with mankind. The weapons and the scale and the victims and the "cause" may change but the outcome is always the same.
I like this.
I think there are other things, possibly, in play as well that help shape what we're seeing now. Just a rough idea floating around in my head that isn't fully fleshed out, so bare with me. Essentially we, as a species, are having a difficult time adjusting to the internet and how it now allows us to interact and communicate with the entire world. With the internet, anyone and everyone can have a voice. This leads to people thinking that because they can have a voice, that they should have voice. You can see this with how comment sections on videos and news articles and whatever just turn into a cesspool. Everyone is saying something, just to be part of the conversation, regardless of if what they are saying merits any consideration or not.
I think what I'm trying to say is that in combination of what Bailey posted above about people taking an emotional roller coaster ride straight into the darkness, with no real coping mechanisms, this acting out might be an extension of spewing out garbage in a comment section, just to be heard. Of course not for every type of shooting. The guy who shot up his work probably wasn't trying to influence national politics, nor was the guy in Ohio who got denied from a bar. But people like the El Paso shooter who wrote a manifesto and thinks he's got the answers, but if only someone would listen to him, definitely. Which is sad because his manifesto is a mess and just reading it you can tell that he should be washing dishes and not trying to tackle national economic policy.
I would not dare lay the sole blame on anyone thing (well except the person pulling the trigger), but I feel like there is a long list of things that influence and nudge people to do things like this.
- The media churning out garbage click bait articles/stories/pieces, etc to keep up with a 24-hour news cycle.
- Politics that have degraded so far that candidates are taking the social pulse of society to try and win elections like a popularity contest instead of actually ever trying to solve anything.
- The news cycle constantly highlighting how bad everything is to the point that no one feels like the government is capable of solving any problem at all, so people better act on their own.
- The government not being capable of actually solving problems.
And for the first time, narcissists could openly hate the country and work to destroy it from the inside. Previously such things would have been dealt with swiftly. This counter-culture got us abortion, STDs, Iran/ME crisis, critical race theory, and environmentalism. It provided the genesis for collectivist thought and so many modern collectivists still pull from that period.
Those were all reactions to other bad things though. STDs have been around since the beginning of time for instance. The reason powdered wigs were even created was because of an STD. Critical Race Theory sounds like a reaction to Eugenics. Environmentalism a reaction to hundreds of years of no regulation in pretty much any industry. Between things like strip mining doing irreparable harm to the natural land that we rely upon and doing things like mass poisoning animals to prop up the domestic sheep industry (that barely even exists today anyway), Environmentalism seems a pretty natural reaction.
I'm not trying to defend any of those concepts, especially where some of them are now, just trying to make the point that none of those things just appeared out of whole cloth by people trying to ruin the country.
hollohas
08-04-2019, 21:22
Both the Ohio and the El Paso killers were wearing hearing protection. Anyone recall any other massive shootings that the BG wore hearing protection??? Seems so weird to wear hearing protection when you are expecting to die.
I thought the same thing. I'm not sure what to think about that. Sure helps the case for premeditation though.
In a completely messed up way though, it could be argued that people are taking general gun safety more seriously in general. Like people committing vehicular homicide while wearing a seat belt.
Like your post BG.
Another aspect that I think comes into play is the encouragement into activism for kids growing up. Whether it's 'saving the planet' or a political agenda, we have young individuals that think they have the answers, but don't have enough life experience to understand the realities.
Rucker61
08-04-2019, 21:59
Not a fan of his, but this tweet is pretty accurate. And he's getting ripped apart for it.
https://i.imgur.com/aI8FqNH.jpg
The data doesn't support the narrative or the emotional response. Ask a gun control advocate if "assault weapons" used in mass shootings is our biggest concern with gun violence, and when they say "of course", ask them why the 20 year annual average of less than twenty dead mass shooting victims is more of a priority than the 1000 black teens and children murdered by other Black people, or the 22,000 suicide victims every year?
The great minds of our time have spoken:
Celebrities Demand Gun Control Amidst Multiple Shootings: ‘It’s About Life and Death’ (https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/celebrity/celebrities-demand-gun-control-amidst-multiple-shootings-its-about-life-and-death/ar-AAFkiVx)
Both the Ohio and the El Paso killers were wearing hearing protection. Anyone recall any other massive shootings that the BG wore hearing protection??? Seems so weird to wear hearing protection when you are expecting to die.
To be completely honest, I'm surprised that crazy's haven't figured out the advantage before.
Do you ever train without hearing protection? Probably not. The second you take them off, the anticipation of the hearing-damage level DB can start to affect your accuracy, especially if you keep doing it. On top of that, your awareness will become limited as the "pressure" builds in your ears and your hearing temporarily dampens. Digital ear muffs... might look silly, but there's sadly no disadvantage to it.
It's also entirely possible the second one saw pictures of the first one. And there's some real possibility that the quick succession is motivated by crazy on the knife edge, who realized the opportunity the press would give them to stack the infamy more than they could do independently.
The data doesn't support the narrative or the emotional response. Ask a gun control advocate if "assault weapons" used in mass shootings is our biggest concern with gun violence, and when they say "of course", ask them why the 20 year annual average of less than twenty dead mass shooting victims is more of a priority than the 1000 black teens and children murdered by other Black people, or the 22,000 suicide victims every year?
It's not difficult to figure out why indiscriminate shootings are scary to people. It's the indiscriminate part. Like all things, there are narratives attached to all kinds of events. Suburban white people assume that black people getting killed by the thousands are, at worst, asking for it by running with the wrong crowd and/or living a life of crime, or, at best, trapped in a desperate social situation/location where they are unfortunate victims of the first reason.
Suicides are people with problems that couldn't be overcome, were missed by loved ones, etc, etc, but either way are an indication of a personal problem.
With indiscriminate shootings, your own well balanced, socially adjusted, non-criminal kid could still be shot down by someone else, even when you did all the things right.
Also, indiscriminate shootings are largely carried out by white shooters in areas that aren't necessarily high crime areas.
Statistics stop mattering when you become one. Very few people are struck by lightning each year, but you sure bet people still try to avoid it whenever possible.
I like this.
I think there are other things, possibly, in play as well that help shape what we're seeing now. Just a rough idea floating around in my head that isn't fully fleshed out, so bare with me. Essentially we, as a species, are having a difficult time adjusting to the internet and how it now allows us to interact and communicate with the entire world. With the internet, anyone and everyone can have a voice. This leads to people thinking that because they can have a voice, that they should have voice. You can see this with how comment sections on videos and news articles and whatever just turn into a cesspool. Everyone is saying something, just to be part of the conversation, regardless of if what they are saying merits any consideration or not.
I think what I'm trying to say is that in combination of what Bailey posted above about people taking an emotional roller coaster ride straight into the darkness, with no real coping mechanisms, this acting out might be an extension of spewing out garbage in a comment section, just to be heard. Of course not for every type of shooting. The guy who shot up his work probably wasn't trying to influence national politics, nor was the guy in Ohio who got denied from a bar. But people like the El Paso shooter who wrote a manifesto and thinks he's got the answers, but if only someone would listen to him, definitely. Which is sad because his manifesto is a mess and just reading it you can tell that he should be washing dishes and not trying to tackle national economic policy.
I would not dare lay the sole blame on anyone thing (well except the person pulling the trigger), but I feel like there is a long list of things that influence and nudge people to do things like this.
- The media churning out garbage click bait articles/stories/pieces, etc to keep up with a 24-hour news cycle.
- Politics that have degraded so far that candidates are taking the social pulse of society to try and win elections like a popularity contest instead of actually ever trying to solve anything.
- The news cycle constantly highlighting how bad everything is to the point that no one feels like the government is capable of solving any problem at all, so people better act on their own.
- The government not being capable of actually solving problems.
To help you flesh out your theory, we are not biologically engineered to communicate non-visually. Normal communication involves the constant sub conscious analyzing of the body language of the person you are talking to in response to each statement. If they start to display indications of hostility, oops, we modify our conversation. If a sudden change in body language is observed, we naturally adapt our conversation. If body language display heightened interest, we keep going. If their eyes are wandering, and they are turned away from us, we realize they are bored. If they display indications of sexual interest, we fuck it all up and they end up walking away.
Okay, some people are slightly better than others at it, but the point is: we are biologically engineered to see the ramifications of our communication.
To top it off, when we are in a situation of face to face communication, we also imply risk: If we piss someone off enough, they are not powerless. They can cry, invoke the hostility of others, or even hit us.
When people are on the internet, it's no different than when they are in a vehicle. They no longer see someone's face, no they no longer see any consequences, they are not connected to their biological subconscious communication system. The boil over and delve into "fuck you" and "you stupid fuckers". They do things they would never do in a face to face context. They get racist, sexist, violent, hostile.
You are right in the internet being a huge contributing factor in peoples loss of social skill and an increase in loneliness, and the above ^^ is the precise reason.
ETA/PS: That subconscious communication system is a part of an advanced empathetic reaction. A lot of people mistake "empathy" for "sympathy", Empathy is merely being able to "feel" what other people "feel", even if you hate them for it. Most of it is under the hood. As people spend less time in face-to-face conversations when they are younger, their empathy is underdeveloped - and this is seen in broad, national surveys that span about three decades - there is a significant decrease in empathy observed in teens since the widespread rise of social media; and an increase in narcissism.
ETA 2: For your reading, referring to the long analysis: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn/201401/why-is-narcissism-increasing-among-young-americans
BushMasterBoy
08-04-2019, 23:05
Toxicology report should be interesting. Wonder if we even get to see it. If he didn't get a head wound maybe a CAT scan too.
GilpinGuy
08-05-2019, 01:09
Gun homicides have been declining since the mid 90's. Obviously more gun control is the answer. Oh wait.....the media claims it's at an all time high. [facepalm]
If anti 2a folks were smart, they would use these stats to try to (unsuccessfully) show a correlation between stricter gun control and a lower gun homicide rate. Except this would come up:
An interesting correlation with the drop in firearm murders is the incredible expansion of private firearm ownership. In other words, the number of privately-owned firearms was increasing at the same time that the number of firearm murders was plummeting.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/07/21/betcha-didnt-know-firearm-homicides-plummeted-over-last-25-years/
hollohas
08-05-2019, 05:52
Well, he opened the door...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190805/fdf803732e17fb9c63753156a2bf57a5.jpg
Rucker61
08-05-2019, 06:14
Well, he opened the door...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190805/fdf803732e17fb9c63753156a2bf57a5.jpg
What can you expect from a New York Democrat?
Why dont these morons (politicians) understand that background checks dont work, nor will ever work at stopping any future criminal? They only look back, but can see future acts. So z potential criminal with a clean record will pass everytime.
It's nothing more than a feel good pat on the back to say they "care" and did something.
I'm waiting for the day we have AI evaluating all recordings from these devices spying on us that we voluntarily placed in our homes. Then if the AI predict that you are about to commit a crime, you are rounded up and sent to jail for a crime that never occurred. Yes...minority report could be coming but using tech instead of psychics.
hollohas
08-05-2019, 06:29
What can you expect from a New York Democrat?It's exactly what I've been expecting since his primary.
If he goes down this road, he WILL lose the election, no doubt in my mind.
He's always seen guns as a bargaining chip. Trade guns for the border. It's not going to work...
By using the argument for 'background checks' as an answer to control people misusing tools, just require background checks for heroin, fentanyl, and other opioids that are misused by people. The opioid epidemic is solved. [Sarcasm2]
People break. There have always been broken people. It's a difficult problem to fix, and removing the human threat from society has become passe and the institutions to deal with them have been dissolved.
This expectation of safety is a modern concept and is outside the structure of nature.
We protect predators among the flock, then act all surprised when they start killing the sheep.
hollohas
08-05-2019, 07:20
The Ohio killer was a confirmed super leftist so we can be sure all the attention will be focused on El Paso.
www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-08-05/dayton-shooter-was-pro-satan-leftist-who-supported-warren-sanders-antifa-and
Side Note: As these recent issues arose, I kept being reminded how little we still know about the Las Vegas massacre.
BPTactical
08-05-2019, 07:46
Side Note: As these recent issues arose, I kept being reminded how little we still know about the Las Vegas massacre.
Nothing happened there, move along now citizen-pick up that can!
Just on the news...In light of the 2 recent shootings, an announcement is coming from the White House soon.
...better break out the KY.
With the media coverage and highlighting of the killers in the media, the next event should occur in 3...2....
ChickNorris
08-05-2019, 08:07
I want a back rub first.
I bet we don't even get a reach around. Prez is talking now.
ETA: Blaming the Internet, violent video games, identifying and acting on warning signs - promoting Red Flag laws ("rapid due process", whatever the hell that is)...takes credit for banning bump stocks.
We must seek real bi-partisan solutions...
Video of the event:
http://youtu.be/oWIzBxkHsqE
Martinjmpr
08-05-2019, 08:36
I've never liked Trump much but I wonder if his linking any proposed gun control to immigration reform is a way to "poison pill" any proposed legislation.
After all, immigration is Trump's signature issue. If the Dems give any ground on immigration, not only does it threaten to bust up their fragile coalition and incur the wrath of "the squad", it also lets Trump declare a victory, which is something the Dems cannot do in the run-up to the 2020 election.
OTOH if they tell him they will not accept anything less than gun control without a link to immigration, he can tell them to get stuffed (and they don't have the votes to get it through without him) and he can then point to the Dems and say "they said they wanted gun control but they'd rather help illegals stay in the country than protect your children."
Either way, the Dems lose.
Understand, I'm not trying to argue that Trump is any kind of friend to the 2nd Amendment. What I am saying is that Trump is all about helping himself and by linking any proposed gun control to immigration reform, he is driving a wedge right into the heart of the current Democratic party.
It says something when even a lefty like Bill Maher sees the self-destructiveness of the Democratic presidential candidates:
https://news.yahoo.com/bill-maher-democrats-blowing-open-073400386.html;_ylt=AwrEwhU9Pkhdu.kAqw1XNyoA;_ylu= X3oDMTExdDhkYnBjBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMzBHZ0aWQDREZENl 8xBHNlYwNzYw--
"All the Democrats have to do to win is to come off less crazy than Trump and, of course, they're blowing it," Maher said in his closing monologue during his HBO show, "Real Time with Bill Maher."
Democrats are "coming across as unserious people who are going to take away all your money so migrants from Honduras can go to college for free and get a major in 'America sucks,'" he said.
I bet we don't even get a reach around. Prez is talking now.
ETA: Blaming the Internet, violent video games, identifying and acting on warning signs - promoting Red Flag laws ("rapid due process", whatever the hell that is)...takes credit for banning bump stocks.
We must seek real bi-partisan solutions...
Video of the event:
http://youtu.be/oWIzBxkHsqE
What a piece of shit. Yeah, the problem has to be that we have too many rights including due process, video games manufacture murderers, and nothing was done to stop the Parkland shooting because there were no tools available (as opposed to proven political corruption).... yeah..
The left is all over Trump in not coming right out and banning "assault weapons". "Get the guns, get the guns, get the guns...." Cory Booker stating that assault weapons are used by white supremacists while we know the vast majority of them are being used for self-defense and other legal uses. I heard a BS statistic about how great the Clinton ban was a few minutes ago. In reality, there was an inability to tell if the Clinton ban had any effect at all.
We have politicians making statements for political leverage before there's an understanding of any details and the bodies are still warm.
This is a mess and a political football.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/governmentdemotivator.jpeg
Side Note: As these recent issues arose, I kept being reminded how little we still know about the Las Vegas massacre.
Can you help me understand this comment?
After every shooting, there is plenty of blame towards the media for wall to wall coverage, providing names, not letting the story die, etc. But at the same time, every time, the Vegas Shooting gets brought up with people demanding to know more.
Why the dichotomy?
It doesn't seem like the issue with Vegas is the media. It seems that the government is restricting the details. There were firearms in the murderer's room that had bump stocks and others that didn't. We still don't know the details, but we had governmental action to take firearm furniture to the level of being a "machine gun".
We certainly don't know as much about the Vegas killer as we know within a day of these recent attacks. Maybe it was just due to his age/lack of social media participation, but I don't know. This morning I'm hearing about the Ohio killer having a 'kill list' and a 'rape list' and being kicked out of high school.
We've seen mass murders where legal restricted magazines were used, but the focus is a need to take away "high capacity magazines". Life experience has taught me that mass murder occurs without the use of firearms, but the political focus is to remove arms from the general public.
I just heard from the police chief in Ohio about the loose ammo in the killer's backpack, magazine capacity whether full or empty, to make the point that there could have been 250 victims (41 empty cartridges were recovered). The weapon was "modified to function as a rifle". I imagine this was a pistol with a brace where the brace was held to the shoulder, but no details yet.
"These are weapons of war." "There is no purpose for these types of firearms to be available to the public."
I see the implied messaging, being poured on while emotions are high, and it's targeted (no pun intended). I'm even hearing it on Fox News this morning as Islamist terrorism is being identified as "mental illness". 'Anybody that wants to kill a lot of people based on race is mentally ill." (Islamist terrorists don't give a rat's ass about "race", but this stuff is difficult for talking heads in the media.)
"Restricting access" is the mantra.
From what I can see, the Constitution is dead and our society is swirling the bowl.
So we want information, but once we have it, then the news can move on and let us mull over it privately at our leisure.
Bailey Guns
08-05-2019, 11:03
...takes credit for banning bump stocks.
Well see? The bump-stock ban worked. Since the ban was enacted no one has used one to commit a mass shooting. It's like having an "EASY" button.
Wonder what these CongressCritters will try and come up with during their month long recess.
But during that time I’m sure there will be plenty more things the president does or says that will infuriate the democrats.
I do agree with Martinjmpr, I see any proposal that Trump would be willing to sign or not sign a huge failure for the Democratic Party. Either he gets full funding for a border wall, deporting illegals, revamping the immigration process and curtailing illegals voting and use of our welfare/Medicare/social security, or they will do nothing to stop future mentally ill folks from the senseless attacks. Either way the democrats have their back against the wall.
So we want information, but once we have it, then the news can move on and let us mull over it privately at our leisure.
The MSM doesn't even need to be involved, but you knew that already.
Well see? The bump-stock ban worked. Since the ban was enacted no one has used one to commit a mass shooting. It's like having an "EASY" button.
Yep. The ban of bayonet lugs during the Clinton ban also eliminated bayonet crime.
That should work with essentially everything deemed undesirable. Just ban it. Something must be done!
Ahh, nothing like the circular logic of fans, convincing themselves that Trump is some super genius who, despite being a NY Democrat, has their best interests in mind regarding firearms even as he says the opposite, and everything is a big scheme to piss the democrats off.
Pretty sure Trump could say he outright thinks maybe it's time to "ban all guns" and some fans would still be trying to convince themselves its just a big scheme to "piss of the democrats", which I'm not sure what that accomplishes in the first place.
SMDH
Martinjmpr
08-05-2019, 12:28
Ahh, nothing like the circular logic of fans, convincing themselves that Trump is some super genius who, despite being a NY Democrat, has their best interests in mind regarding firearms even as he says the opposite, and everything is a big scheme to piss the democrats off.
Pretty sure Trump could say he outright thinks maybe it's time to "ban all guns" and some fans would still be trying to convince themselves its just a big scheme to "piss of the democrats", which I'm not sure what that accomplishes in the first place.
SMDH
If you are referring to my post then you lose points for reading comprehension.
I DON'T believe Trump is a friend to the 2nd amendment. In fact, I don't think Trump is a friend to anybody except Trump. Trump is about Trump, first, last and always.
Guns are not a winning issue for anybody in this electoral scheme. Those that are anti-gun aren't going to win more votes by being more anti-gun and those who are pro gun aren't going to win votes by being more pro-gun. There simply is no room for movement on the gun issue. Another million votes in California, Illinois or New York (or Colorado, for that matter) don't matter in our electoral setup because those states go blue no matter what the people think about guns.
Immigration, by contrast, IS an issue that can win or lose an election. In order to win, Trump needs to get mid-west voters to vote for him. He was able to do this in 2016 largely on the basis of immigration. If he holds firm he is likely to win re-election.
That's why linking gun control to immigration is a shrewd move. Dems desperately WANT gun control, and they desperately DO NOT WANT any kind of immigration enforcement. Trump linking gun control to immigration puts Dems in a bind: Do they give in on immigration to get their gun control bill? If they do then millions of their hard-lefty supporters will desert them because being pro-immigration is pretty much all they have.
But if they don't then Trump can tell the mid-west voters (for whom immigration is still a deciding issue) "I'm fighting for you and the democrats not only want to keep flooding the country with illegals, they also want to take away your guns." That's win-win for Trump and lose-lose for the dems.
Even on the slight chance that the Dems might actually support an immigration reform bill in order to get their gun control, Trump STILL gets to call it a win because he can say "I got this immigration reform bill for YOU, Mid-west Americans."
As I said, I don't think Trump cares one whit about guns. But he's happy to use the gun control issue to drive a wedge between the "mad moms" and the crazy left wing open borders types on the Dem side.
Martinjmpr
08-05-2019, 12:58
Continuing my thought from above...it seems to me that gun control is a nullity as a political issue.
With so many of our political contests running neck-and-neck, nobody on either side can afford to alienate any part of their base. We see it on the Democrat side with the socialists and the open-borders crowd basically driving the Dem party into the dirt. But the dems can't let them go because so many elections are now decided by single-digit percentages. You can't afford to piss off part of your coalition when the difference between winning and losing is 2 or 3 percent. All they have to do is fold their arms and do nothing and you lose to the other side.
For Republicans it's the same thing. Switching sides on gun control buys them nothing. It's not like someone who is pro choice and pro immigration and pro-socialism is all of a sudden going to cross the aisle and vote for a Republican simply because that Republican supports gun control. So for Republicans to support gun control would (a) anger a big portion of their base and at the same time (b) gain them nothing valuable in terms of voters.
Going from the Republican party down to Trump himself it's the same thing: People who hate Trump aren't going to start voting for him if he supports gun control. And on the flip side, those who are Trump supporters because of things like illegal immigration and jobs aren't going to suddenly switch to the Dem side just because Trump DOESN'T support gun control.
That's why in political terms, gun control is a non-starter. Politicians love to bloviate and talking heads love to wag their fingers and 'demand' that something be done. But in the end, it's politically "safer" for Republicans in particular to just stand pat and wither the criticism, because the people who vote them into office are the only ones that matter - not the talking heads on TV or on the other side of the aisle.
By the same logic, by combining gun control with a minor immigration bill, it might convince enough republicans to break party and vote for gun control (esp in areas where their constituents aren't terribly pro-gun) so they can claim they did it for immigration.
Maybe it's not that brilliant eh? There's no chance of much passing without it. But by combining the two, you might guarantee bi-partisan passage. As much as Democrats pretend to love "undocumented" they don't care, it's just buying votes. But they REALLY HATE GUNS. Don't think for a second that a ton of liberals won't vote for a comprehensive "border bill" if it got them, say, an AW ban. Then all you need is a couple pubs' that REALLY want that immigration bill.
Yeah, it's not super-genius, it's stupid.
First disarm them. Then do whatever you want to them.
I've seen it mention a few times now. Rifle caliber pistols being banned. Including the pistol brace buttstocks.
Martinjmpr
08-05-2019, 14:40
By the same logic, by combining gun control with a minor immigration bill, it might convince enough republicans to break party and vote for gun control (esp in areas where their constituents aren't terribly pro-gun) so they can claim they did it for immigration.
That might be true if the level of commitment on the anti-gun side was equal to the level of commitment on the pro-gun side, but it's not. If it was we would have seen strict gun control laws in the first two years of the Obama presidency when the Dems controlled both houses of congress and the white house. But we didn't because "health care reform" was more important to them and they spent all their political capital on that.
As much as Democrats pretend to love "undocumented" they don't care, it's just buying votes. But they REALLY HATE GUNS.
I would say you've got it backwards. "Hating guns" might please a few of the "mad moms" but it doesn't buy the dems one single vote or put one cent into their pockets, so it doesn't help them in any tangible way.
Identity politics, pitting one constituent group against another, and using the power of government to take $$ from disfavored groups and put it into the pockets of favored groups, is where the Dems heart and soul is. That's their source of power.
The last time the Dems went "all in" on gun control, they got shellacked. They haven't forgotten the beating they took in 1994 which still affects their party even today.
The Dems are playing the long game. They know they can't get their program through until they get themselves a veto-proof majority in both houses. They do that by getting as many people as possible to vote for them, and if they're poor and brown, so much the better because people who are poor and brown tend to vote overwhelmingly Democrat and they know that.
In that equation, gun control helps them not a bit, and just makes the "red" states dig their heels in that much harder.
On the Republican side, giving in on any kind of widespread gun control is guaranteed to cost them votes and buy them nothing from the Dem voters who will hate them no matter how they vote on guns. So there's no up-side to Republicans supporting anything other than very marginal gun laws that don't really affect anybody who would vote.
DavieD55
08-05-2019, 14:54
I think we're going to see the red flagging really intensify to an insane level and it will just become the vehicle for all-out gun confiscation under the lie and guise of safety and security. The red flag laws have the potential to eventually be abused and used in such a way for collective punishment.
People could at some point be targeted by the leftists and goons for minor shit such as an opposing political view on a bumper sticker.
Not saying it will go like this for sure, but the potential for that type of abuse is certainly there considering the political climate in today's society.
Hope I am completely wrong this.
Those were all reactions to other bad things though. STDs have been around since the beginning of time for instance. The reason powdered wigs were even created was because of an STD. Critical Race Theory sounds like a reaction to Eugenics. Environmentalism a reaction to hundreds of years of no regulation in pretty much any industry. Between things like strip mining doing irreparable harm to the natural land that we rely upon and doing things like mass poisoning animals to prop up the domestic sheep industry (that barely even exists today anyway), Environmentalism seems a pretty natural reaction.
I'm not trying to defend any of those concepts, especially where some of them are now, just trying to make the point that none of those things just appeared out of whole cloth by people trying to ruin the country.
The idea I'm trying to communicate isn't there weren't problems, it's that solutions by previous generations were constructive rather than destructive. Even the bad solutions were attempted in good faith. Not so with Boomer Libs who made damn sure to poison the well at every opportunity. And yes, they were intent on either radically transforming the country or overthrowing the government. They just didn't have the physical courage in their youth to do it.
Take racial issues as an example...
Civil Rights Act = constructive, ratified equal treatment in all states, attempts to solve a problem (resolution)
Critical race theory = destructive, never ending racial strife, identity politics, affirmative action, self-segregation
And no one can credit Boomers with the CRA because they were teens/young adults. It was the Greatest that ran that one over the finish line.
Protecting natural resources is also good and necessary. "Anthropogenic climate change" as political/social/economic warfare isn't. Could the issue be addressed without using it as a political weapon? Sure! But the Boomer Libs can't do that because everything takes them back to their often veiled hatred of this country and its citizens.
Again, we're seeing Boomer's best efforts realized in Millennials/Zers. WTF has happened? And it's not just guns/mass shootings... Suicides too.
---
I'm going to have to wait and see what comes from Trump's statements this morning. I think it's too early to judge.
The problem with "white supremacy" is that the Left has called everyone a racist simply for disagreeing with them. This has not only given actual white supremacists cover, but the media has gone looking for them and given them a platform to try and link to Trump. CNN recently had Richard Spencer on, for example.
So rubber stamp the "white supremacy" narrative and suddenly 60,000,000 Americans are white supremacists responsible for murder. Or take the label back from the Left and make it meaningful.
"Better background checks" sounds ridiculous and we all know why. National red flag with due process... Ok but how does that work in terms of logistics and funding? Take the guns but leave the crazy/evil people in society? Not a fan.
It's seems like Trump is just being defensive politically and saying the things that heads off typical media criticisms.
I think we're going to see the red flagging really intensify to an insane level and it will just become the vehicle for all-out gun confiscation under the lie and guise of safety and security. The red flag laws have the potential to eventually be abused and used in such a way for collective punishment.
People could at some point be targeted by the leftists and goons for minor shit such as an opposing political view on a bumper sticker.
Not saying it will go like this for sure, but the potential for that type of abuse is certainly there considering the political climate in today's society.
Hope I am completely wrong this.
I read elsewhere this is exactly how the USSR dealt with dissidents, abusing "mental health." I was all ears when they called Christians mentally ill for this very reason.
Kicking in the doors of people who have committed no crime, because of their beliefs and exercising of a civil right, will make things very interesting, very quick.
In case anyone wants insight on the "white supremacist" angle...
https://twitter.com/rezaaslan/status/1158160628592209920
https://imgur.com/clYXCod.jpg
He's trying to say "eradicate" isn't a call for democide/mass murder after being called out but I think it's obvious that's what he's saying should happen given the subject.
This was in response to Conway saying "Working as one to understand depraved evil & to eradicate hate is everyone?s duty. Unity.
Let?s do this."
https://twitter.com/KellyannePolls/status/1158030724856811522
Maybe people can just be sent to camps where they pray the white supremacy out of them.
*That's just a joke of history, not trying to insinuate anything else.
That might be true if the level of commitment on the anti-gun side was equal to the level of commitment on the pro-gun side, but it's not. If it was we would have seen strict gun control laws in the first two years of the Obama presidency when the Dems controlled both houses of congress and the white house. But we didn't because "health care reform" was more important to them and they spent all their political capital on that.
Oh boy. I respect your opinion, but respectfully disagree and point to history over my shoulder. The funny thing about divisive two party politics is the thing people fear generally happens when they aren't watching, and it doesn't cost any political capital to the politicians they are already comfortable with. Rabid anti-gun bills were introduced in every session during Obama. They simply would've cost too much political capital because all the pro-gun folks were foaming mouth-militia-flag-waiving RABID because "Obamas gunna' ban muh guns!" If OBAMA introduced a gun compromise bill that cost us nothing (congress introduces, but bear with me we are talking about Americans here) pro gun folks would've been RABID because it had his name on it. OBAMA COULD NOT HAVE EVEN "BANNED" BUMP STOCKS.
And yet, when a conservative takes office, that's when your risk your major anti-gun bills go through. Case in point: Ol' Ronald Regan. Case in point: People on this site who think Donnie has a strategy or it all works out. It's far, far easier to get your costly bills through when your opposition isn't office, believe it or not. Because your "supporters" have no other choice, it's not like they'll go and vote for democrats. It's why I sold what firearms I had during the Obama admin in mid panic. I wasn't even a tiny bit worried about "bans". And lo and behold, I was right - but I have been around awhile. But, I am worried about bans now.
Race issues are not actually getting worse during this session, and all the SJW are foaming at the mouth rabid. But surprisingly, they did get worse under the Obama administration by leaps and bounds, and the SJW were relatively quiet.
When people should be MOST guarded is when the party they are comfortable with is in power.
Mark my words: Donny won't veto a ban on just about anything. If congress votes for something, he'll back it and try to get his smiling doofus thumbs-up endorsement publicized and claim it was all his idea. Yes, even an AW ban. Problem with narcissists is they only care about winning, so if he gets an immigration bill to pass, he doesn't care if everything else burns for it, it's a "win" in ol' Donny's book.
In case anyone wants insight on the "white supremacist" angle...
https://twitter.com/rezaaslan/status/1158160628592209920
https://imgur.com/clYXCod.jpg
He's trying to say "eradicate" isn't a call for democide/mass murder after being called out but I think it's obvious that's what he's saying should happen given the subject.
This was in response to Conway saying "Working as one to understand depraved evil & to eradicate hate is everyone?s duty. Unity.
Let?s do this."
https://twitter.com/KellyannePolls/status/1158030724856811522
Aspects of all of this reminds me of the french revolution.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qRZcXIODNU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQmjXM4VK2U
Maybe people can just be sent to camps where they pray the white supremacy out of them.
*That's just a joke of history, not trying to insinuate anything else.
Like, a summer camp or something?
More...
https://imgur.com/uTogLNB.jpg
https://imgur.com/7CSGOJt.jpg
BPTactical
08-05-2019, 17:58
In case anyone wants insight on the "white supremacist" angle...
https://twitter.com/rezaaslan/status/1158160628592209920
https://imgur.com/clYXCod.jpg
He's trying to say "eradicate" isn't a call for democide/mass murder after being called out but I think it's obvious that's what he's saying should happen given the subject.
They are not even attempting to hide it anymore.
They would happily march you into a ditch ala Babi Yar.
https://youtu.be/vdL7QowDR8M
Scanker19
08-05-2019, 20:23
I think it’s funny that many people still think that any new firearm legislation will happen. By that I mean actual legislation house—->senate——>whitehouse. Instead watch them rupture some colons by simply regulating, such as they did with bump stocks, “Sorry boys Mr. Pen says they’re now NFA items.”
I think it’s funny that many people still think that any new firearm legislation will happen. By that I mean actual legislation house—->senate——>whitehouse. Instead watch them rupture some colons by simply regulating, such as they did with bump stocks, “Sorry boys Mr. Pen says they’re now NFA items.”
Yeah, when people aren't on guard and like "their guy" that's when its by far, the easiest.
Presently, there's more than enough support in the house to get it through. And they only need to flip four republican senators (out of 53) to get passage. Donny, who is a NY democrat who seeks adoration, will sign it.
So, if it's not combined with anything, nah, not much to worry about. Maybe Donny *actually* wants to get some of those 53 senators to flip, so he can brag about bipartisan results. He wants to combine it with something that if passed, will let republicans who vote for it save face in the name of immigration.
How confident are you that 7% of "republican" senators - including some from liberal states, like ours - won't vote for something like an AW bill especially if it's package with immigration. Because the left WILL bite the bullet on immigration to get the candy they really want. The loss of that tiny, thin little line - any four guys or gals out of 53 - will get you an AWB. And what do you bet that more than 7% of republicans in the senate personally vilifies "AW". If more than 7% of the gun owning public is a fudd, what does that say for the senate, of whom, even a lot of the republicans don't own firearms?
But yeah, don't be concerned or anything. All the gun bans already happen under Obama, when everyone is watching, the "right" is unified, the NRA is strong, and people are threatening all out war. Yup, that's when they did all the banning.
Great-Kazoo
08-05-2019, 20:57
Yeah, when people aren't on guard and like "their guy" that's when its by far, the easiest.
Presently, there's more than enough support in the house to get it through. And they only need to flip four republican senators (out of 53) to get passage. Donny, who is a NY democrat who seeks adoration, will sign it.
So, if it's not combined with anything, nah, not much to worry about. Maybe Donny *actually* wants to get some of those 53 senators to flip, so he can brag about bipartisan results. He wants to combine it with something that if passed, will let republicans who vote for it save face in the name of immigration.
How confident are you that 7% of "republican" senators - including some from liberal states, like ours - won't vote for something like an AW bill especially if it's package with immigration. Because the left WILL bite the bullet on immigration to get the candy they really want. The loss of that tiny, thin little line - any four guys or gals out of 53 - will get you an AWB. And what do you bet that more than 7% of republicans in the senate personally vilifies "AW". If more than 7% of the gun owning public is a fudd, what does that say for the senate, of whom, even a lot of the republicans don't own firearms?
But yeah, don't be concerned or anything. All the gun bans already happen under Obama, when everyone is watching, the "right" is unified, the NRA is strong, and people are threatening all out war. Yup, that's when they did all the banning.
They can ban all they want. I know who knows how many people with lathes, mills, welders, etc. When an afghan goat herder with maybe a kindergarten reading level can sit in the mountains cranking out rifles that will stop you out to maybe 800+ yards. Using nothing but his hands, feet and good hot coals. What do you think somebody with a generator and tooling can do.
Hell all you need is a router and tool bits, to do ones hobby in their garage or tool shed.
I'm beyond giving fuck who cries over what and how many legislators need to be flipped for sensible gun laws. You think 2 A sanctuary cities are a blip now. Just wait.
Rucker61
08-05-2019, 21:46
Yeah, when people aren't on guard and like "their guy" that's when its by far, the easiest.
Presently, there's more than enough support in the house to get it through. And they only need to flip four republican senators (out of 53) to get passage. Donny, who is a NY democrat who seeks adoration, will sign it.
So, if it's not combined with anything, nah, not much to worry about. Maybe Donny *actually* wants to get some of those 53 senators to flip, so he can brag about bipartisan results. He wants to combine it with something that if passed, will let republicans who vote for it save face in the name of immigration.
How confident are you that 7% of "republican" senators - including some from liberal states, like ours - won't vote for something like an AW bill especially if it's package with immigration. Because the left WILL bite the bullet on immigration to get the candy they really want. The loss of that tiny, thin little line - any four guys or gals out of 53 - will get you an AWB. And what do you bet that more than 7% of republicans in the senate personally vilifies "AW". If more than 7% of the gun owning public is a fudd, what does that say for the senate, of whom, even a lot of the republicans don't own firearms?
But yeah, don't be concerned or anything. All the gun bans already happen under Obama, when everyone is watching, the "right" is unified, the NRA is strong, and people are threatening all out war. Yup, that's when they did all the banning.
They'll trade immigration for gun control, then "fix" immigration when they plan to win everything in 2020.
Great-Kazoo
08-05-2019, 21:46
What about barrels?
what about them? They run under $100 for an other than tier 1 nitride unit. But who doesn't have a pile o goodies from when everyone thought it was HILLARY BY A LANDSLIDE .
I don't have any spare barrels, they're all attached to uppers. Which are attached to lowers.
I'm trying to understand the strategy. There is an absolute sense of urgency in gun confiscation that is being openly discussed, even knowing it would cost lives and the legitimacy of gov. For years I've been reading and hearing the strategy is "Sundown at Coffin Rock." But that's doesn't line up with what's being discussed.
Making all black rifle owners "white nationalists" (RACISTS!!!) isn't a way to achieve disarmament. It only polarizes and creates resistance. Simultaneously telling people you want to eradicate them while demanding they disarm isn't strategic if you want to accomplish a long-term, multi-generational goal. The Left's narratives on white people and race traitors (minorities who don't fall in line) are beyond alarming. Some are calling this a de-humanization campaign and I'm not sure I disagree, it just doesn't have clear boundaries.
Remember, Trump got pounced for saying people who hate America should go back? There are Progs saying certain people shouldn't exist. I remember Clinton using the word "irredeemable." They are fine with this language and these ideas.
It's like the Left wants chaos and uncertainty but not the perception that they did it and the resulting accountability.
Some profiling I found elsewhere...
https://imgur.com/XqIjgjK.jpg
"Ban eyeglasses! It enhances the accuracy of rogue murderers!"
Yeah, "white males" are the problem if you follow the MSM.
The first 2 look like brothers.
...and I still refuse to refer to these killers as "shooters".
"Ban eyeglasses! It enhances the accuracy of rogue murderers!"
Yeah, "white males" are the problem if you follow the MSM.
The first 2 look like brothers.
...and I still refuse to refer to these killers as "shooters".
Yeah, I say shooters sometimes too. It's the lexicon and intentional.
I was more interested in the expression and dead eyes. The lights don't seem to be on.
They look soft and the first two look generally worthless. The Dayton shooter at least manages a smile.
Info on his family...
https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/connor-betts-family-parents-mother-father/
1. Betts? Dad, Steve Betts, Who Works in Technology, Urged a ?Rational Discussion? on Guns the Day after Sandy Hook
2. Betts? Mother, Moira Cofer Betts, Filled Her Facebook Page With Family Pictures & Advocated for Looking at Each Other With a ?Kinder Eye?
5. Connor, Who Still Lived With His Parents, Showed Warning Signs Back in High School & Was in a Pornogrind Band
https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/bettspicture.jpg?quality=65&strip=all&w=780
http://scontent.fapa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/68550633_2791760754186225_1899726415125807104_n.jp g?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQmRrALJjiiPBcXwcRbxD_B6meTEavXqa0Rq8FOXHHg B9wbxUp0gYkwnzKx-IhigHOtgOJbH7dXVEaSjoUEz_rJr&_nc_ht=scontent.fapa1-2.fna&oh=18818e4e9fefdbe7ef005b68cc6901cf&oe=5DE7DB01
Ohio shooter was a self described "leftist" that supported Elizabeth Warren for president...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7326491/Dayton-shooter-Connor-Betts-socialist-wanted-oil-executives-beheaded.html?fbclid=IwAR0J_IlRf1K76zmjDZOx4xROtcE xTaw2o_Y2QYMyErSPkL6LGVopsYrgB-I
Dayton shooter Connor Betts described himself as a 'leftist' who hated Trump, wanted Elizabeth Warren for president and was PRO-gun control, his now-suspended social media accounts show
Connor Betts, 24, described himself as a 'leftist', according to his suspended Twitter account
The account was removed on Sunday shortly after he gunned down nine people, including his sister, in Dayton, Ohio
The Twitter account regularly retweeted extreme left-wing posts and bemoaned the election of President Donald Trump
His social media posts often showed support for Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren as he called for a 'revolution' against the rich
Just hours before the Dayton shooting, he retweeted posts in support of gun control and liked several tweets about the massacre in El Paso, Texas
JohnnyDrama
08-07-2019, 17:44
http://scontent.fapa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/68550633_2791760754186225_1899726415125807104_n.jp g?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQmRrALJjiiPBcXwcRbxD_B6meTEavXqa0Rq8FOXHHg B9wbxUp0gYkwnzKx-IhigHOtgOJbH7dXVEaSjoUEz_rJr&_nc_ht=scontent.fapa1-2.fna&oh=18818e4e9fefdbe7ef005b68cc6901cf&oe=5DE7DB01
Bad guys, 1892....
78584
At some point during this post, "Beer for my Horses..." started going through my head.
KevDen2005
08-07-2019, 23:07
^^^^^^^Dalton Gang?
http://scontent.fapa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/68550633_2791760754186225_1899726415125807104_n.jp g?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQmRrALJjiiPBcXwcRbxD_B6meTEavXqa0Rq8FOXHHg B9wbxUp0gYkwnzKx-IhigHOtgOJbH7dXVEaSjoUEz_rJr&_nc_ht=scontent.fapa1-2.fna&oh=18818e4e9fefdbe7ef005b68cc6901cf&oe=5DE7DB01
But I was told they were all white men... lots of color in those faces. But I'm sure they are white-AA men, white-latino, white asian, ect...
Has this story already fallen out of the news cycle?
KevDen2005
08-11-2019, 16:12
Has this story already fallen out of the news cycle?
Haven't you heard? Epstein took himself by surprise and is now dead.
Great-Kazoo
08-11-2019, 21:18
Haven't you heard? Epstein took himself by surprise and is now dead.
So's Generalissimo Francisco Franco.
Rucker61
08-12-2019, 09:03
http://scontent.fapa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/68550633_2791760754186225_1899726415125807104_n.jp g?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQmRrALJjiiPBcXwcRbxD_B6meTEavXqa0Rq8FOXHHg B9wbxUp0gYkwnzKx-IhigHOtgOJbH7dXVEaSjoUEz_rJr&_nc_ht=scontent.fapa1-2.fna&oh=18818e4e9fefdbe7ef005b68cc6901cf&oe=5DE7DB01
If we've had 250 mass shootings so far this year, the arrest rate is pretty poor.
Rucker61
08-12-2019, 09:03
So's Generalissimo Francisco Franco.
Still?
http://scontent.fapa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/68550633_2791760754186225_1899726415125807104_n.jp g?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQmRrALJjiiPBcXwcRbxD_B6meTEavXqa0Rq8FOXHHg B9wbxUp0gYkwnzKx-IhigHOtgOJbH7dXVEaSjoUEz_rJr&_nc_ht=scontent.fapa1-2.fna&oh=18818e4e9fefdbe7ef005b68cc6901cf&oe=5DE7DB01
So many do not fit the narrative. Nothing to see, move along. [Shake]
I think they should change the verbage from mass shooting to indiscriminate shooting, because they mean different things and people are only afraid of one of those. No one cares if a guy murders 12 people if it's his own family, or a bunch of rival gang members because they aren't likely to be in his family or the rival gang.
The picture is a cutsie way to catch anti-gun people in a trap using their own vocabulary.
The media will never let that go. It's "mass shooting" no matter the circumstance. 5 guys break down your door and invade your home and you shoot 4 and the 5th runs away ------> "mass shooting". It may go unreported just because it was the defensive use of a firearm, but I bet it's still a statistic.
This is just Chicago this year:
78632
78633
www.heyjackass.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.