Handgun or Pistol Defense Against Bear Attack

[GilpinGuy]

Link: https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/handgun-or-pistol-defense-against-bear-attack-73-cases-96-effective/

I almost posted this in in the Hunting forum, but it applies to anyone in the forest.

Interesting, but hopefully I never have to test this.

[Irving]

I think the way that he handled the information was well done. You hear about people not being able to effectively use guns in a moment of panic, which is understandable, but not really the guns fault or evidence of the efficacy. Good find.

[encorehunter]

https://sangrechronicle.com/raton-man-attacked-by-bear/

I will leave this here. It doesnt mention in the article that the bear died while still clamped down on his leg, or the fact they had to cut the bears head off and transport it with him to the hospital.

[Bailey Guns]

The article certainly doesn't "prove" anything but it does provide some interesting data.

I was especially surprised at the effectiveness of the .22 in the cases mentioned.

Good stuff to think about.

[Gman]

I was scanning through the article and was a bit miffed that they weren't talking about what type of bear. A black bear is not the same as a brown or polar. I'm glad they included the bear species in the details at the bottom.

[glocktoberfest]

why not just use bear spray? i'm no Davy Crockett but supposedly it's way more effective than a firearm. Btw, i do carry a 10mm pistol as the backup to the bear spray

[Irving]

Bear spray has problems when it's windy. Just like pistols have problems when your buddy is in the way, like in the bear's mouth.

[Ramsker]

Bear spray has problems when it's windy. Just like pistols have problems when your buddy is in the way, like in the bear's mouth.

This is why I always try to hike with a slower friend.

[ChickNorris]

... because 9 year olds run pretty slow.

[ray1970]

Bear spray has problems when it's windy. Just like pistols have problems when your buddy is in the way, like in the bear's mouth.

If I?m ever being eaten by a bear you have my permission to take the shot. Hopefully you?ll hit the bear and not me but at that point does it matter to me either way really?

[spqrzilla]

why not just use bear spray? i'm no Davy Crockett but supposedly it's way more effective than a firearm. Btw, i do carry a 10mm pistol as the backup to the bear spray

The advice that bear spray is more effective is always sourced to people who care more about bears than you.

[ChickNorris]

The advice that bear spray is more effective is always sourced to people who care more about bears than you.

Hear hear

[Circuits]

I was especially surprised at the effectiveness of the .22 in the cases mentioned.


22LR will absolutely kill just about anything that walks, crawls, slithers, flies, slides or swims on this planet. Just gotta get that shot placement right.

[Bailey Guns]

I think the example given of the guy with the Ruger was an example of killing the bear with lead poisoning. Sounds like it took two magazines but fortunately for him two rounds found their mark on vitals.

All the .22 examples were with black bears, too. I'm curious what the outcome might've been against an 800 pound Grizzly as opposed to a much smaller black bear.

I know a .22 will kill a black bear. Mrs BG and I found a dead black bear just outside the fence line of our Bailey property. Cause of death wasn't obvious. I searched the carcass with my metal detector and found one .22 LR LRN slug. Really pissed me off that someone shot that bear with a .22 and left it to die what was most likely a slow and painful death.

[Bailey Guns]

... because 9 year olds run pretty slow.

Especially when they "fall"...

[Bailey Guns]

I suppose that's kinda not funny after hearing of the kid attacked by a mountain lion in Bailey last night.

[glocktoberfest]

The advice that bear spray is more effective is always sourced to people who care more about bears than you.

so to be clear, are you saying this is not accurate?

[Irving]

The world record largest brown bear was liked with a .22lr IIRC.

[Gman]

I think the example given of the guy with the Ruger was an example of killing the bear with lead poisoning. Sounds like it took two magazines but fortunately for him two rounds found their mark on vitals.

All the .22 examples were with black bears, too. I'm curious what the outcome might've been against an 800 pound Grizzly as opposed to a much smaller black bear.

I know a .22 will kill a black bear. Mrs BG and I found a dead black bear just outside the fence line of our Bailey property. Cause of death wasn't obvious. I searched the carcass with my metal detector and found one .22 LR LRN slug. Really pissed me off that someone shot that bear with a .22 and left it to die what was most likely a slow and painful death.
There was an unsuccessful defense against a polar bear with a .22:

3. 1 September, 1995, Norway, Svalbard Island, .22 rimfire, Failure Polar Bears: Proceedings of the Twelfth Working Group (https://books.google.com/books?id=H5hjuhGwfDoC&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=The+two+tourists+defended+themselves+with+a+.22 +calibre+pistol+which+proved+ineffective.&source=bl&ots=lwIYypNzPk&sig=ACfU3U3Izo69pJEkCHCHyfvep1xO9Kbdrw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjL-NKrqsngAhVBuZ4KHd61D6YQ6AEwAHoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=The%20two%20tourists%20defended%20themselves%20w ith%20a%20.22%20calibre%20pistol%20which%20proved% 20ineffective.&f=false)
On 1 September, 1995, two male tourists were attacked by an adult male bear on a remote island in eastern Svalbard. The two tourists defended themselves with a .22 calibre pistol which proved ineffective. One man was killed, the other injured. Police later shot the bear.

[Bailey Guns]

Police later shot the bear.

Now you're assuming the local po-po was using something larger than a .22LR. That's as bad as assuming someone's gender.

[Coffee]

[Gman]

I never assumed that at all. I think the po-po were smart enough to use whatever it took.


http://youtu.be/QrFTZohQObw

[GilpinGuy]

Now you're assuming the local po-po was using something larger than a .22LR. That's as bad as assuming someone's gender.

[Coffee]

That is funny shit right there.

[MED]

The advice that bear spray is more effective is always sourced to people who care more about bears than you.


so to be clear, are you saying this is not accurate?

This was an interesting article, and given where i live and my time in the back country something I've spent time pondering. I would say its just the difference between lethal and nonlethal force. Bear spray's effectiveness will be determined by environment (wind) accuracy as well as the bears determination and recovery for a subsequent attack; the bear is temporarily incapacitated so the threat is still present. Additionally, bear spray would prove unwise to deploy once the attack is on you; chances are you would get hit with some of it. A firearm is lethal force; and if used correctly by somebody with appropriate skills and tools, will eliminate the threat. A combination of both depends on reaction time, so if you deploy bear spray in the short effectiveness window, you may or may not have time to deploy a firearm before the attack is on you. I think ultimately, the use of nonlethal force really comes down to are you OK with the threat still being present or do you want the threat eliminated. Whichever is fine as long as you are aware of the possible outcomes and are prepared for whatever you choose to do. Like anything security related preparedness and situational awareness are key.

[Irving]

I disagree with the idea that it would be unwise to deploy spray during an attack. I'll post the podcast that goes indepth to a lady's grizzly attack to support my position when I get home.

[Gman]

What about bear flares? [Peep]

[ray1970]

So, I'm reminded of two things by the posts in this thread.

First, images from a 1979 movie called "Prophecy" come to mind.

Second, (in response to the comments about a 9 year old) I was reminded of the video where a family is attacked by a buffalo and the parents bail and leave their daughter to face the wrath of the buffalo.

[ChickNorris]

So, I'm reminded of two things by the posts in this thread.

First, images from a 1979 movie called "Prophecy" come to mind.

Second, (in response to the comments about a 9 year old) I was reminded of the video where a family is attacked by a buffalo and the parents bail and leave their daughter to face the wrath of the buffalo.

Bingo

[glocktoberfest]

My knowledge of bears basically comes from internet videos, but i'm starting to head into the rockies on a regular basis with my sons. So i feel like I need to ramp up fast on what really works and what doesnt. If a bear was charging at me, i wouldn't try bear spray, I'd be mag dumping the 10mm. What i'm imagining with all these 22 bear shootings in the OP is a little black bear looking for food and getting shot in the eye. Some of them seem like big lazy animals -- not charging grizzlies like the one in that movie Revenant. If a curious bear came up to my campsite, I would probably spray first and shoot second. Hopefully, i'll never have to find out how effective bear spray is.




This was an interesting article, and given where i live and my time in the back country something I've spent time pondering. I would say its just the difference between lethal and nonlethal force. Bear spray's effectiveness will be determined by environment (wind) accuracy as well as the bears determination and recovery for a subsequent attack; the bear is temporarily incapacitated so the threat is still present. Additionally, bear spray would prove unwise to deploy once the attack is on you; chances are you would get hit with some of it. A firearm is lethal force; and if used correctly by somebody with appropriate skills and tools, will eliminate the threat. A combination of both depends on reaction time, so if you deploy bear spray in the short effectiveness window, you may or may not have time to deploy a firearm before the attack is on you. I think ultimately, the use of nonlethal force really comes down to are you OK with the threat still being present or do you want the threat eliminated. Whichever is fine as long as you are aware of the possible outcomes and are prepared for whatever you choose to do. Like anything security related preparedness and situational awareness are key.

[MED]

My knowledge of bears basically comes from internet videos, but i'm starting to head into the rockies on a regular basis with my sons. So i feel like I need to ramp up fast on what really works and what doesnt. If a bear was charging at me, i wouldn't try bear spray, I'd be mag dumping the 10mm. What i'm imagining with all these 22 bear shootings in the OP is a little black bear looking for food and getting shot in the eye. Some of them seem like big lazy animals -- not charging grizzlies like the one in that movie Revenant. If a curious bear came up to my campsite, I would probably spray first and shoot second. Hopefully, i'll never have to find out how effective bear spray is.

A couple years ago, I walked out my front door with a black bear pretty close on my driveway. My GSD let out one loud bark, and that thing was running so fast to the other end of my five acre lot that I barely had time to get a pic after it was almost out of sight. Black bears really want nothing to do with people and especially dogs unless they have been desensitized with trash, food, and other crap that people leave out for them to rummage through. I have bear scat all over my lot, and I really don't see them that much. They absolutely stay away from large dogs...don't want any part of that so if you have one (especially two), they will stay away from you. They are dangerous in the spring when they are hungry especially the early springs when there is no food. My neighbor had a lama taken down by one in the early spring, which was pretty impressive and they have left deer kills on my lot in the spring. They are the most dangerous when you enter a sow's territory where she has her cubs. I think situational awareness is your best tool. You can clearly see when you are in their territory if you are looking. All the years I lived up here in bear, mountain lion, and bobcat territory I've never had an issue with the kids and GSDs hanging out on my lot or campsite during the day...however, evening time come in the house. My only close call in the back country was seeing fresh cat tracks along the river bank from a cat that I scared off before I saw it; that could have been a bad situation. Brown bears are far more confident and very powerful animals; stay vigilant in their territory because they will absolutely challenge you if they see you as a threat or if you have something they want like a fresh kill. My niece has a cabin up by Leadville; her biggest encounter at this point hiking the trails up there was with another dog attacking her dog causing a lot of damage. She carries bear spray to protect her dogs, and her CCW to protect herself.

[Irving]

A couple years ago, I walked out my front door with a black bear pretty close on my driveway. My GSD let out one loud bark, and that thing was running so fast to the other end of my five acre lot that I barely had time to get a pic after it was almost out of sight. Black bears really want nothing to do with people and especially dogs unless they have been desensitized with trash, food, and other crap that people leave out for them to rummage through. I have bear scat all over my lot, and I really don't see them that much. They absolutely stay away from large dogs...don't want any part of that so if you have one (especially two), they will stay away from you. They are dangerous in the spring when they are hungry especially the early springs when there is no food. My neighbor had a lama taken down by one in the early spring, which was pretty impressive and they have left deer kills on my lot in the spring. They are the most dangerous when you enter a sow's territory where she has her cubs. I think situational awareness is your best tool. You can clearly see when you are in their territory if you are looking. All the years I lived up here in bear, mountain lion, and bobcat territory I've never had an issue with the kids and GSDs hanging out on my lot or campsite during the day...however, evening time come in the house. My only close call in the back country was seeing fresh cat tracks along the river bank that I scared off before I saw it; that could have been a bad situation. Brown bears are far more confident and very powerful animals; stay vigilant in their territory because they will absolutely challenge you if they see you as a threat or if you have something they want like a fresh kill. My niece has a cabin up by Leadville; her biggest encounter at this point hiking the trails up there was with another dog attacking her dog causing a lot of damage. She carries bear spray to protect her dogs, and her CCW to protect herself.

Agree with this all the way.

Here is the podcast about a grizzly attack: https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-167-mauled-by-a-grizzly
This one is good and covers a lot of things. These guys have a two part podcast covering the time their group was attacked by a grizzly when they were hunting with Remi Warren as well.

Here is Remi's short version and general bear tips podcast. https://www.themeateater.com/listen/cutting-the-distance/ep-2-the-bear-attack-on-afognak-being-safer-in-bear-country

[glocktoberfest]

i'm glad to hear this. i really have no desire to see let alone shoot a bear. Or a lion.


A couple years ago, I walked out my front door with a black bear pretty close on my driveway. My GSD let out one loud bark, and that thing was running so fast to the other end of my five acre lot that I barely had time to get a pic after it was almost out of sight. Black bears really want nothing to do with people and especially dogs unless they have been desensitized with trash, food, and other crap that people leave out for them to rummage through. I have bear scat all over my lot, and I really don't see them that much. They absolutely stay away from large dogs...don't want any part of that so if you have one (especially two), they will stay away from you. They are dangerous in the spring when they are hungry especially the early springs when there is no food. My neighbor had a lama taken down by one in the early spring, which was pretty impressive and they have left deer kills on my lot in the spring. They are the most dangerous when you enter a sow's territory where she has her cubs. I think situational awareness is your best tool. You can clearly see when you are in their territory if you are looking. All the years I lived up here in bear, mountain lion, and bobcat territory I've never had an issue with the kids and GSDs hanging out on my lot or campsite during the day...however, evening time come in the house. My only close call in the back country was seeing fresh cat tracks along the river bank from a cat that I scared off before I saw it; that could have been a bad situation. Brown bears are far more confident and very powerful animals; stay vigilant in their territory because they will absolutely challenge you if they see you as a threat or if you have something they want like a fresh kill. My niece has a cabin up by Leadville; her biggest encounter at this point hiking the trails up there was with another dog attacking her dog causing a lot of damage. She carries bear spray to protect her dogs, and her CCW to protect herself.

[Mtneer]

Good article pointing out that bear spray has been oversold based on one study.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2401248/does-bear-spray-work

[Irving]

Bad reporting of studies is bad news from every direction. Bear spray could be 98% effective, but we wouldn't know because of the inadequacies of the study. Seems like to either place ones trust in a product that doesn't work, or not use a product that does work because you're gun shy due to bad reporting and misleading marketing are equally as bad.

[SA Friday]

There are multiple documented cases where a brown bear sprayed with OC will come back in a hour or so to the spot it occurred. They roll around in the remnants of the spray. I did a short paper on it in college. If you use OC/CS bear spray, prepare for them to come back.

[ray1970]

There are multiple documented cases where a brown bear sprayed with OC will come back in a hour or so to the spot it occurred. They roll around in the remnants of the spray. I did a short paper on it in college. If you use OC/CS bear spray, prepare for them to come back.

If I pepper spray a bear and it comes back an hour later I won?t have to worry about it finding me as I?ll be long gone. Probably be heading for the house to change my dirty underpants from the initial encounter.

[Irving]

Same thing for arsonists.

[waffles]

There are multiple documented cases where a brown bear sprayed with OC will come back in a hour or so to the spot it occurred. They roll around in the remnants of the spray. I did a short paper on it in college. If you use OC/CS bear spray, prepare for them to come back.

Yep, when I was in Alaska the forestry/similar industry guys would always stick to a 15 minute rule as far as packing up camp and getting the fuck out of dodge.

[Bailey Guns]

Same thing for arsonists.

Very few of them will eat you when they come back to the scene, though.

[ChickNorris]

Very few of them will eat you when they come back to the scene, though.

Might depend on how thick the smoke ring is or if you're charred.

[Irving]

Might depend on how thick the smoke ring is or if you're charred.

Joke stealer!

[Bailey Guns]

Note to self: Beware of arsonists carrying around fava beans and a nice chianti.

[Gman]

...and now we've made a full transition into cannibalism. Country style.

ETA: ...and now Italian.

[ChickNorris]

Now I want to make a joke about corn on the cob, but someone will likely confuse it & make inference with one of my siglines.

[ChickNorris]

Wait. . . whut?

[Bailey Guns]

Lettuce not go there.

[ChickNorris]

We shallot then.

[Bailey Guns]

You butter not be making fun of me.

[ChickNorris]

Why, you saying it'd be a missed steak?

[Bailey Guns]

No...there are just some things I'd rather not taco bout.

[ChickNorris]

Ah, the path of yeast resistance.

[ChickNorris]

What if i get jalapeno business?

[Bailey Guns]

With this many food puns it's gonna be hard for the others to ketchup.

[Bailey Guns]

That would be a berry bad mistake.

[ChickNorris]

That would be a big dill then eh?

[ChickNorris]

Maybe even a salt with a deadly weapon?

[Bailey Guns]

I'm feeling like you might beet me at this game.

[ChickNorris]

Peas full resolution?

[Bailey Guns]

Sure...I guess it could've ended wurst.

[Irving]

Bert will be proud.

[Bailey Guns]

I relish the thought of making Bert proud.

[ChickNorris]

It ain't over lentil fat lady sings.

[ChickNorris]

Bert, have I met herbivore?



*ducking*

[Bailey Guns]

You've left me wonton more puns.

[ChickNorris]

: D

[ChickNorris]

Something will turnip for you

[Bailey Guns]

Dammit... Now I need to think of smore.

[Gman]

No, you donut.

[ChickNorris]

We've all bean there before BG.

[Bailey Guns]

Oooh... Olive donuts.

[ChickNorris]

Oooh... Olive donuts.

Wheat a second, isn't that just a bagel?

[Gman]

Cereal?

[Gman]

Omelet myself out of this scramble.

[Bailey Guns]

OK...with Gman out we're back to just the pear of us.

[ChickNorris]

You're going to kale it quits eh?

[ChickNorris]

OK...with Gman out we're back to just the pear of us.

Two peas in a pod.

[Bailey Guns]

I think so. But I did enjoy it a waffle lot.

[Bailey Guns]

I cannoli do this for so long.

[ChickNorris]

Im going to pudding one more.

[Gman]

Orange you glad I left?

[Bailey Guns]

I yam too.

[ChickNorris]

Rye don't we get back to the bears now.

[Gman]

Berry good idea.

[Bailey Guns]

That's nacho best effort.

[Bullythekid]

I have had a bear encounter before while hunting for deer and elk, but the bear had no idea I was there and walked past at about 26 yards. I wasn't in a ground blind or a stand, just sitting in a small chair. It walked the direct path I was hoping the deer would so I could get a shot off. The bear had no idea I was there and just passed right by, one of the most beautiful sightings, but I will also be the first to admit it did get my blood pumping pretty quick.

If I were attacked by a bear while out hunting I would hope to get some shots off, let alone some accurate shots after being dumped with an insane amount of adrenaline. I would hope that in a situation where I was hunting with a buddy and I was being attacked my hunting buddy would start shooting. I would much rather take a bullet via collateral damage and try to fix my wounds up by throwing a tourniquet on or packing some gauze than trying to maintain ripped flesh and limbs that would be flopping around. I would image the survival percentages are much higher taking a bullet.

[ray1970]

I think people who get overly concerned about bear attacks in Colorado probably should find something better to worry about. I think there have been maybe three people killed by bears in Colorado in the last hundred years or so.

In the last fifty years or so there have been over 300 people killed by lightning in Colorado. You are 100 times more likely to be killed by lightning in this state than a bear but almost nobody dives into protection from lightning strikes like they do from bears.

[Irving]

Part of gun culture seems to be constantly making up reasons why you need one at all times. If it wasn't bears, it'd be mountain lions, or coyotes, or Rainbow Family people, or cartel grows, or people with green cards, etc.

[Jer]

I think people who get overly concerned about bear attacks in Colorado probably should find something better to worry about. I think there have been maybe three people killed by bears in Colorado in the last hundred years or so.

In the last fifty years or so there have been over 300 people killed by lightning in Colorado. You are 100 times more likely to be killed by lightning in this state than a bear but almost nobody dives into protection from lightning strikes like they do from bears.

I suspect that three number to be a bit on the light side. Also, dying isn't the only thing that can result from a bear attack. The alternatives can also screw up your day to say the least. There was a little kid nearby that was recently attacked by a black bear as he was running to the neighbor's house. Last I heard he was pretty messed up.

[FoxtArt]

Part of gun culture seems to be constantly making up reasons why you need one at all times. If it wasn't bears, it'd be mountain lions, or coyotes, or Rainbow Family people, or cartel grows, or people with green cards, etc.

Don't forget zombies. For most of us, it's a joke, but some people don't take it so jokingly.

All the scenario stuff is way overplayed. I mean, it's not like I have a "break glass in case of zombies" emergency kit or anything. *looks around nervously*.

But seriously, it's about 10,000 times more likely you have to deal with a serious medical for you or someone else out in the boonies than anything else. Nobody practices those scenarios in their head, though.

ETA: I would feel differently if we lived in Grizzly country.

Colorado bears...
...are as dangerous as a 12 year old girl. Pretty sure the later has killed more people than the bears here have.

[Gman]

Part of gun culture seems to be constantly making up reasons why you need one at all times. If it wasn't bears, it'd be mountain lions, or coyotes, or Rainbow Family people, or cartel grows, or people with green cards, etc.

Guns just happen to be the best tool we have right now for self-defense. Doesn't matter the threat.

[MED]

I thought I would relay an incident that just happened over the weekend. My manager, who is an extremely experienced hunter and woodsman, was out bow hunting Elk. He used his pack to take out an animal the day before with his hunting partner. It guess a 400-500lbs boar black bear stalked him likely because he smelled the recent elk kill on him. The bear came out and confronted him closing to about a distance of 4-5 feet away; crazy, he was holding out his bow to maintain separation, while the bear was trying to circle around him. My manager left his sidearm and only had bear spray that he couldn't deploy without it coming back from the wind, and he had a hard time reaching for it where he had it located on his belt. Fortunately, another pair of hunters saw it going down and raced to his aid with their UTV and chased off the bear.

Edit: I should probably note the UTV was OK because he was hunting on private property with owner permission.