View Full Version : 9news magazine limit investigation
Seeing ads about why you can buy mag repair kits.
Saw it 3 times so far, but havent caught the date.
Rap sheet was upset over a loophole.
Soon to come, complete ban with no grandfathering?
hurley842002
11-10-2019, 23:51
Saw this also, was about to post something. Some fruitcake looking investigative reporter all over this story.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Saw it as well, suppose to be tonight at 9 and 10pm.
Dems in control, now they just need a "crisis" to stick it to the flyovers.
So 9 news delivers a pre planned script, cue sad crying mother, cue Moms Demand some actions Sharon. Council member will see it and be deeply moved by the sad plight, and outraged by blatent disregard of the law!
Prewritten Bloomie/Soros laws will be introduced, some local shop with few resources will be prosecuted, and then they wait until the next "crisis".
How am I doing so far?
Erni, just exposed their play book.
Great-Kazoo
11-11-2019, 12:34
Dems in control, now they just need a "crisis" to stick it to the flyovers.
So 9 news delivers a pre planned script, cue sad crying mother, cue Moms Demand some actions Sharon. Council member will see it and be deeply moved by the sad plight, and outraged by blatent disregard of the law!
Prewritten Bloomie/Soros laws will be introduced, some local shop with few resources will be prosecuted, and then they wait until the next "crisis".
How am I doing so far?
You forgot the grassroots protest outside gun stores. Holding 3x4 full color signs.
This is an obvious expose that I don't think should surprise anyone. This isn't some dubious plot, my only question is why it didn't happen sooner.
Just out of curiosity, the only way to tell if a mag is legal or not is on the plastic mags (Magpul) where they print the date of manufacture on it right?
Has anyone ever seen a metal mag with a date or other identifying marks on it?
.455_Hunter
11-11-2019, 14:26
Just out of curiosity, the only way to tell if a mag is legal or not is on the plastic mags (Magpul) where they print the date of manufacture on it right?
Has anyone ever seen a metal mag with a date or other identifying marks on it?
My Brownells AR GI mags have date stamps, along with the factory mags that came with my Stag.
My Brownells AR GI mags have date stamps, along with the factory mags that came with my Stag.
Interesting... I have never noticed dates on metal mags before. Are they on the inside or outside?
It blows me away that they are surprised this law is not working. They were told a million times that it is unenforceable and would not work at the hearings.
I guess this was part of the plan though. Started at 10 rounds then upped it to 15 so it would gain enough support, now complain it's not working because everything was grandfathered in. I think this was the plan all along.
beast556
11-11-2019, 14:41
It blows me away that they are surprised this law is not working. They were told a million times that it is unenforceable and would not work at the hearings.
I guess this was part of the plan though. Started at 10 rounds then upped it to 15 so it would gain enough support, now complain it's not working because everything was grandfathered in. I think this was the plan all along.
This is my thoughts also, Democrats and leftists are in it for the long game.
beast556
11-11-2019, 14:44
Interesting... I have never noticed dates on metal mags before. Are they on the inside or outside?
Depends on manufacture I have seen bolth inside and outside date stamps. I have a bunch of okay usgi mags that are date stamped on the inside and outside. Most pistol mags dont have any markings.
Gcompact30
11-11-2019, 15:01
Prison is over crowed and people being let out so I dont think anyone especially a law abiding citizen with no criminal history going to jail over a dam magazine.....just my opinion.......and mine only....we have to vote all these idiots out of office....
Rucker61
11-11-2019, 15:28
It blows me away that they are surprised this law is not working. They were told a million times that it is unenforceable and would not work at the hearings.
I guess this was part of the plan though. Started at 10 rounds then upped it to 15 so it would gain enough support, now complain it's not working because everything was grandfathered in. I think this was the plan all along.
I was watching the proceedings when the change from 10 to 15 was made. There was already enough support on the Democratic side to pass with 10 rounds; I have no idea why they upped to to 15 other than to suggest a compromise.
Rucker61
11-11-2019, 15:29
Just out of curiosity, the only way to tell if a mag is legal or not is on the plastic mags (Magpul) where they print the date of manufacture on it right?
And for some reason Magpul puts the date code right where the decorative stippling goes.
kidicarus13
11-11-2019, 15:35
Just out of curiosity, the only way to tell if a mag is legal or not is on the plastic mags (Magpul) where they print the date of manufacture on it right?
Has anyone ever seen a metal mag with a date or other identifying marks on it?D&H AR mags have exterior date stamps.
I was watching the proceedings when the change from 10 to 15 was made. There was already enough support on the Democratic side to pass with 10 rounds; I have no idea why they upped to to 15 other than to suggest a compromise.
I thought there was a D on the committee (maybe from Durango) that said 10 was a bridge too far and he wouldn't go there . . . but would be ok with 15. So Fields said . . . ok, 15 then?
I thought there was a D on the committee (maybe from Durango) that said 10 was a bridge too far and he wouldn't go there . . . but would be ok with 15. So Fields said . . . ok, 15 then?
This is what I remember too. There was someone who put up a stink about it on the blue side. I think they basically said 10 was too much too fast and if you want this thing to stick you have to do 15 first.
Rucker61
11-11-2019, 17:01
This is what I remember too. There was someone who put up a stink about it on the blue side. I think they basically said 10 was too much too fast and if you want this thing to stick you have to do 15 first.
My memory, which certainly isn't infallible, is that someone was just tossing the Rs a bone. Amazing that the initial bill submitted by Rapsheet said that ten was necessary to protect lives, yet they all agreed to 15. I call HB 13-1224 the "five more dead kids is okay by us" law.
.455_Hunter
11-11-2019, 17:06
Interesting... I have never noticed dates on metal mags before. Are they on the inside or outside?
Outside on the body.
My memory, which certainly isn't infallible, is that someone was just tossing the Rs a bone. Amazing that the initial bill submitted by Rapsheet said that ten was necessary to protect lives, yet they all agreed to 15. I call HB 13-1224 the "five more dead kids is okay by us" law.
That was my thought too. "We are ok with 15 dead kids but not one more than that!"
I do remember hoping at one point that they would go the other way and try and get it down to 5 or something. Was thinking that would be much harder to pass.
After this gets aired, life goes on. Store will have parts and buyers need to fix their mags with spare parts.
EOM.
eddiememphis
11-11-2019, 18:21
After this gets aired, life goes on.
OK, Boomer.
This will be the expose that will finally solve all crime involving evil guns forever!
.455_Hunter
11-11-2019, 20:42
and here it is...
https://www.9news.com/mobile/overloaded
Pretty clear what the new focus will be.
That it took them this long to figure out what was going on shows how disconnected they are with the citizens of CO.
SideShow Bob
11-11-2019, 20:43
OK, Boomer.
This will be the expose that will finally solve all crime involving evil guns forever!
You have not been in this forum long enough to insult Mr.Prena in such a manner...... Now apologize. !
SideShow Bob
11-11-2019, 20:46
Back on topic.... All the gun shops that exploited this grey area to the point of advertising to the general public has brought any more severe laws upon all of us.
spqrzilla
11-11-2019, 21:06
Nonsense
and here it is...
https://www.9news.com/mobile/overloaded
Pretty clear what the new focus will be.
That it took them this long to figure out what was going on shows how disconnected they are with the citizens of CO.
I'm sure the Weld County sheriff's discussion with the LGS owner will be "hey, dummy . . . I don't really GAF about the law but don't tell your employees to be so openly brazen about it using my name".
Stupid, ineffective law. The fact that it's being openly scoffed and CO is as safe as it ever was is proof that it's pointless.
There is no loophole. Mag repair "kits" as sold in stores are illegal under the existing law. The lack of prosecution does not equate to a loophole.
However, all the gun owners calling it a loophole invite even stricter laws to close "holes" that non existent to begin with. Too bad they don't say "No, it's not a loophole, but we don't give a shit".
Instead, you have 50,000 bubbas with zero legal experience whom are all suddenly experts on the topic as soon as the law passed. [dig] It's legal, cause bubba said it's a loophole. Now bubba never figured out how to tie his shoes or read, but that's irrelevant to his expertise on the law.
All these cited gun store "experts" in the report are disgusting. "how its written, see, is that"... FFS, could you try reading it, first?
Progressives don't need an "invitation" to seek out and pass gun control laws. It's what they believe in their core.
Much easier when bubba gump, gun store employee can be quoted as a legal expert the general public will believe.
DireWolf
11-11-2019, 22:27
There is no loophole. Mag repair "kits" as sold in stores are illegal under the existing law. The lack of prosecution does not equate to a loophole....
Just like the existence of a law which is not a law and can only be enforced by the barrel of a gun is an abomination, and truly antithetical to the principles and legal structure of our Nation.
"All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void."
GilpinGuy
11-11-2019, 23:34
Didn't practically every Sheriff in the State of Colorado say this mag limit is bullshit and wouldn't even try to enforce it? Maybe I'm mixing things...CO has become so fucked up I can't keep up with the bizarro shit that goes down.
Didn't practically every Sheriff in the State of Colorado say this mag limit is bullshit and wouldn't even try to enforce it? Maybe I'm mixing things...CO has become so fucked up I can't keep up with the bizarro shit that goes down.
Nope...you remember things correctly. They actually gathered together and challenged it in court.
Will1776
11-12-2019, 03:50
CBS Denver put out a similar video in 2014
Geeze, when I was in Oklahoma last month, I could have bought all the 30rd mags I wanted. And there was a Post Office right there.
Alas, I already have more than I can carry.....
Didn't practically every Sheriff in the State of Colorado say this mag limit is bullshit and wouldn't even try to enforce it? Maybe I'm mixing things...CO has become so fucked up I can't keep up with the bizarro shit that goes down.
[Awesom]
BPTactical
11-12-2019, 08:11
Oooooooh, Rap Sheet Rhonda.....she mad now.
Funny how a gash of a legislator who cannot themselves lawfully possess a firearm due to being a "Prohibited Person" (Larceny & Forgery) can dictate what law abiding citizens may purchase, own & possess.
I would not be the least bit surprised to see CO Legislation go full press on "Gun Safety" this next session.
I?ve been in Oklahoma now since late July and still haven?t bought standard cap mags or done a Face to Face gun buy. I?m a failure.
It would be interesting to see some of the store security videos of the "undercover" crew.
Great-Kazoo
11-12-2019, 08:35
I?ve been in Oklahoma now since late July and still haven?t bought standard cap mags or done a Face to Face gun buy. I?m a failure.
I know, same for AZ. The few gun shows they have in this area ( 3 per yr) usually see mags for $10 per.
Of course there's the usual fuktards to try telling you. Well those mags you're asking about have become hard to get.
Crossing state lines does not decrease the number of ripoff's at a gun show. It did lower the number of beef jerky tables by 80% That's a plus
Form the 9news article:
Hick, the guy who wouldn't take personal responsibilty for signing the bill into law, says if he were still governor...
"Obviously, I would go to the legislature and say, 'this is not the intention of what we worked so hard to get passed, and let's go back and try and find what that loophole is, where the language is not sufficient and improve it,'" Hickenlooper said.
Pandering for votes much, you worthless POS?
I?ve been in Oklahoma now since late July and still haven?t bought standard cap mags or done a Face to Face gun buy. I?m a failure.
Getting settled in a new place is just a bit time and finance impacting. [Coffee]
3beansalad
11-12-2019, 09:28
Seen on the book: The law is doing what it was intended to do. It's whittling away at the rights of society under the pretext of safety by claiming it will stop the actions of a schizophrenic who should have and could have been committed under existing law just like many other cases.
I'm guessing that the Denver gangster's are hoping this "loophole" gets closed and soon because it's hurting their bottom dollar. Their business is to run weed east into Neb. and sell and then buy a bunch of high capacity mags. to bring back west and sell. Rinse and repeat. But right now, the demand for mags. is a little low, so they are hoping Fields will help them out a little. [ROFL2]
KevDen2005
11-12-2019, 18:18
OOOHHHH Just In Time
https://www.9news.com/article/news/crime/shooting-northeast-denver-near-kittredge-block/73-334ee988-6f67-47e7-800c-fb59e27fdc39?fbclid=IwAR3D3D0ZVGZ0xdYHW8YIE5s_vQPZ 4kehu58DHL7ib-dUsqPq_N-afpgp0x8
BPTactical
11-12-2019, 19:03
Just in time?
How about the fact that the CO Supreme Court will hear the case against the magazine ban tomorrow.
Nah, cant be..
colorider
11-12-2019, 23:20
Only 10 and sometimes 11 rounds of .458 socom rounds fit into a standard capacity magazine and can be used in the .458 socom rifle/pistol Therefore, the magazines meet the 15 round limit. [Beer]
Martinjmpr
11-13-2019, 09:22
Is there anyone who DIDN'T see this coming? I think it was 5 years ago I first saw the "magazine repair kits" for sale at a LGS. Another LGS sold 15+ mags quite openly, with some kind of statement that they were "only to be sold to those who resided outside CO."
Really, did anyone think they would be able to get away with this for very long? The only thing that surprises me is that it took this long for someone in the news media to notice.
BladesNBarrels
11-13-2019, 09:49
I?ve been in Oklahoma now since late July and still haven?t bought standard cap mags or done a Face to Face gun buy. I?m a failure.
Did you start open carry on Nov 1, when it became legal in OK?
No. I conceal carry as the law provides for both. But it?s not Constitutional Carry by any means, as there are still restrictions which CCW folks don?t have.
i still have my CO card but I figure it?s no longer valid since I moved. I plan to get an OK card so I?m not subject to the stupidity which slipped in the permitless carry law.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1QRlM9qIe4&feature=youtu.be State SC hearing on mag ban. My math shows 5 of 7 justices appointed by democrats.
SamuraiCO
11-13-2019, 14:52
The MSM missed the big question. The ban was put into affect to decrease gun violence. Since the "law" was passed it was apparent the law did nothing to stop us from purchasing these products. The law did nothing to affect said gun violence. Nothing changed drastically either direction which means there is no coloration between magazine size and amounts of gun violence. It is society and those willing to act with evil, the firearm is just one of the tools.
eddiememphis
11-13-2019, 17:16
I can't find any date stamps on the magazines I own. That makes enforcement of the law difficult.
I?ve been in Oklahoma now since late July and still haven?t bought standard cap mags or done a Face to Face gun buy. I?m a failure.
[ROFL1] The first thing I did when I moved down here was buy mags
https://i.imgur.com/tJ3rbJmh.jpg
Will1776
11-13-2019, 23:51
I can't find any date stamps on the magazines I own. That makes enforcement of the law difficult.
Or you could have cracked your magazine body and needed to replace it. Colorado failed to define which part of the magazine is the magazine so some might say it's ok to replace all the broken parts you want (not necessarily me). In NY back when they allowed preban mags, I believe they defined the magazine body as the magazine so it couldn't be replaced with a newer magazine body, but you could freely replace all other parts like the spring and follower from what I remember.
GilpinGuy
11-14-2019, 00:46
And my guess is that the majority of LEO's will simply continue to not enforce this, so who gives a shit in the end except the deranged fringe left? The news poo-spewers can spout off all they want. An unenforceable law is just that.
And date stamps can inadvertently be ground, ooops I mean worn off by repeated use, shuffling around in ammo cans, etc., right?
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-14-2019, 01:38
The Chuckle head CO AG said that he couldn't comment because of a pending court hearing about CO mag law that was to happen on 11-13. Anyone know where that was being heard and what the outcome was?
Great-Kazoo
11-14-2019, 01:44
The Chuckle head CO AG said that he couldn't comment because of a pending court hearing about CO mag law that was to happen on 11-13. Anyone know where that was being heard and what the outcome was?
They postponed the trial, so the D judge could watch the impeachment hearings.
newracer
11-14-2019, 09:30
The Chuckle head CO AG said that he couldn't comment because of a pending court hearing about CO mag law that was to happen on 11-13. Anyone know where that was being heard and what the outcome was?
The hearing occurred, we won't hear the decision for a few months.
The hearing show session occurred, we won't hear the decision that the law was upheld for a few months.
FIFY
O2
Or you could have cracked your magazine body and needed to replace it. Colorado failed to define which part of the magazine is the magazine so you can replace all the broken parts you want. In NY back when they allowed preban mags, they defined the magazine body as the magazine so it couldn't be replaced with a newer magazine body, but you could freely replace all other parts like the spring and follower from what I remember.
How many times have you been to court? How many legal briefs have you written? Ever read the law in question? Ever read any applicable opinions regarding possession of parts? Let me guess, you were one of the experts the news team interviewed.
spqrzilla
11-14-2019, 11:06
Good lord. [dig][dig]
Apparently stating a response in the presence of the forum legal "expert" could result in a hostile response.
Will1776
11-15-2019, 04:49
How many times have you been to court? How many legal briefs have you written? Ever read the law in question? Ever read any applicable opinions regarding possession of parts? Let me guess, you were one of the experts the news team interviewed.
Just giving my opinion like everyone else on here. Not a legal expert or a lawyer. Edited my previous post to make this clear. Regardless of what the correct interpretation of the law is, it's good to see many of our sheriff's don't enforce it and many shops don't care. Gun owners in other states aren't as willing to stick it to the statists in charge.
Great-Kazoo
11-15-2019, 10:01
Just giving my opinion like everyone else on here. Not a legal expert or a lawyer. Edited my previous post to make this clear.
neither is he. A court case or two with wins doesn't mean he's perry mason. But what do you expect from a cluster B personality ;)
Gun owners almost never present it as an opinion, they present it as affirmative fact.
You can make an AR-15 fully automatic just by unlocking the switch to the third position! This is why all the schools get shot up by assault rifles.
Would the above quote bother users here, if proffered as fact by a coworker, family, or another in passing? What if you knew they were a gun owner?
Should we ignore ignorance? Most of the time, yes. Yet, when gun owners en mass explain their assumptions of "loopholes" of law as facts to non-gun owners.... what happens? Is it really much different than when progressives talk about the "shoulder thing that goes up" as they write affirmative legislation dealing with things they've never touched or seen, but think they know fully about. The end result is akin to a bushman writing legislation about driving standards.
The end result is akin to a bushman writing legislation about driving standards.
Now you?re stereotyping people. Based off of the jack wagons I see on the road every day I would venture to guess the bushman you mentioned above is probably just as qualified to write laws about driving as someone who actually drives.
Now you?re stereotyping people. Based off of the jack wagons I see on the road every day I would venture to guess the bushman you mentioned above is probably just as qualified to write laws about driving as someone who actually drives.
Probably. And that's kind of the point. Just like a lot of progressives are just as qualified as a lot of people who shoot.... maybe even better (if we ignore which "side" they are on), because many are aware of their ignorance. It's a basic Dunning-Krugar effect and part of the natural psyche - people think A) I can shoot (or drive) and B) I can read, and conflate the two to a massivly inflated self-estimation of knowledge on the regulation/laws on either, even if they have no actual knowledge/experience of laws or regulation in any real kind.
PS, Sorry for being harsh, Will. Also, I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once.
Ah. The old Dunning-Krugar affect. Pretty sure the wife and I pulled that move in the bedroom once.
Effect?
(Pardon my illiteracy)
Effect?
(Pardon my illiteracy)
Nope, you just think you can spell better than you actually can. There's a name for that, but I can't remember what it's called.
spqrzilla
11-15-2019, 12:50
Beer, its called "Beer".
hollohas
11-15-2019, 15:40
How many times have you been to court? How many legal briefs have you written? Ever read the law in question? Ever read any applicable opinions regarding possession of parts? Let me guess, you were one of the experts the news team interviewed.
So, was Will wrong or not? Did they define which part is legally the magazine in the CO law?
That's a whole bunch of pointed questions and one smug accusation but not a smidge of insight. If you're suggesting that was wrong, please enlighten us.
The Great Oz has spoken...how dare you question him.
http://youtu.be/CvQ6aiTBWhc
"Citation reference book for backyard non-attorney on colorado magazine law."
By
__________
wctriumph
11-15-2019, 17:54
I owned all of my magazines before July 1, 2013.
The law is stupid and should be struck down or repealed.
So I can buy more of them.
Before they are banned again.
Great-Kazoo
11-15-2019, 20:04
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LrSrf0_0G4
Can't you understand? That if you take a law like evolution and you make it a crime to teach it in the public schools, tomorrow you can make it a crime to teach it in the private schools? And tomorrow you may make it a crime to read about it. And soon you may ban books and newspapers. And then you may turn Catholic against Protestant, and Protestant against Protestant, and try to foist your own religion upon the mind of man. If you can do one, you can do the other. Because fanaticism and ignorance is forever busy, and needs feeding. And soon, your Honor, with banners flying and with drums beating we'll be marching backward, BACKWARD, through the glorious ages of that Sixteenth Century when bigots burned the man who dared bring enlightenment and intelligence to the human mind!
-John
Very powerful, thanks, Kazoo.
-John
Reminds me of what they are doing to Donald Trump today.
-John
So, was Will wrong or not? Did they define which part is legally the magazine in the CO law?
That's a whole bunch of pointed questions and one smug accusation but not a smidge of insight. If you're suggesting that was wrong, please enlighten us.
My earlier post was terse: there is no loopholes of this kind anyway, people assume a lack of prosecution *must* be for a reason. The law, as written, doesnt provide nor imply repairs, much less of a magazine body.
But what people REALLY fail to grasp is regulation/law isn't a technical juggling act of trying to invent technicalities in a law. No jury or judge has said "oh shit, he's guilty as sin, but he got us on that technicality!" ... never happens. There is millions of pages of precidence, almost all of which is contradictory, so a judge can justify just about anything they please. They often know how they will rule before your opening arguments. If there is a grey area, it is NOT a loophole and will not ensure your safety: rather it's a politisized door that lets judges inconsistently apply the law...you might get off, or you might get two years of jail time. One judge decides it, based on their personal belief. and you wont have a real appeal if you disagree, with the appeal court 1) deferring to discretion and 2) refusing to consider any argument you didn't make originally.
The rule for law is simple, really: if you want to be assured of winning (safe), the law has to be SO CLEAR that even if a judge is opposed to your existence, there are no "gaps" open to interpretation. The problem with "repair kits", is unless you get an appointed judge who owns ar's himself, not only do you have an uphill battle against inherit disagreement, you're trying to credibly convince a judge (and possibly a jury) that 35 magazines of your that they can show. - can even be run-over without being damaged - all had cracked bodies, and you replaced them all, but can't otherwise prove it. There's nothing in the law that you can point to that says "you can fix it", so that road of gimmicky argument would lead to successful prosecution most of the time
.... If it were ever pursued.
The point people need to get is it is NOT a technical gimmick, and that virtually never succeeds. The people who win, win the people. If you're looking at a law and saying "well, the intent is clearly x, but they forgot to define y, so I can do Y..." You're opening a barn door and there's nothing that will protect you except the sheer chances of having the right "people" hear it..
Which you have little to no say in who they are
As far as arguments go, almost all of COs judges are progressive appointments at this point, with many many years between our last conservative governor. There is plenty of case law re: constructive possession and the sum of parts = whole thing, which they are likely to do. There's also some case law that is contradictory, but again - the mistake people make is they read a legal opinion they agree with, without zooming out into the macro and realizing.... Virtually any position, no matter how illogical, can be justified with valid case law if an attorney or judge is skilled enough. Cite to one you agree with, the judge cites to one they agree with, you lost, appeal defers to their discretion. Law simply does what the people enforcing it want, so long as they don't get overboard or heavy handed (e.g. illegal seizure). With rare exceptions.
The only "loophole" is a simple fact that out of six jurors, at least one is likely to want or own hi caps, and the burden is near impossible to prove if your date stamps aren't over July 13 and you use your fifth.
Great-Kazoo
11-16-2019, 09:07
The rule for law is simple, really:You're only as guilty or innocent, as the lawyer you can afford. if you want to be assured of winning (safe), the law has to be SO CLEAR that even if a judge is opposed to your existence, there are no "gaps" open to (Everything is Open to Interpretation) interpretation. The problem with "repair kits", is unless you get an appointed judge who owns ar's himself, not only do you have an uphill battle against inherit disagreement, you're trying to credibly convince a judge (and possibly a jury) that 35 magazines of your that they can show. - can even be run-over without being damaged - all had cracked bodies, and you replaced them all, but can't otherwise prove it. There's nothing in the law that you can point to that says "you can fix it", There's nothing in the law that say's you cannot.so that road of gimmicky argument would lead to successful prosecution most of the time
.... If it were ever pursued. Most are resolved with plea bargaining. The average person with no outside financial support, with a 1/2 ass lawyer Plead Out to a lesser charge. Out here discharging a firearm in city limits, is a Class 6 Felony. They do that so the ones they want hit hard get the felony charge. Others are plea bargained down to a misdemeanor, with a slap n the wrist fine. They call that LEVERAGE.
You forget. The burden of Proof, is upon the prosecution to prove. BEYOND a REASONABLE DOUBT. That's not open to interpretation,or is it. :)
While you base everything on IMO your experience[s]. My spouse having sat on 3 juries, where 2 of those were murder cases. What you're saying and what happens behind the closed doors of the jury deliberation, are 2 different things .
Hell a decent portion of jurors (even though they say no) have their minds made up by the second day.
It takes at least 1 juror to question what they heard to convince the others to reconsider their guilty, or not guilty stance.
Then you have the juror who after the 2nd or 3rd day wants a quick ending, so they can get back to work, family, or their email.
IMO. The movie 12 Angry Men is a documentary, of the average jury.
Throw in finding a truly Unbiased juror. Who has lived in a cave as a Luddite with no means of reading ANYTHING happening with current events.
12 Angry Men and Inherit the Wind... Do you have TCM or do the libraries in AZ have a good selection of classic movies?
We just watched It Happened One Night the other day. Frank Capra's movie, shot in four weeks, starring Claudette Colbert and Clark Gable. The movie earned five Academy Awards in 1935. The budget for the film was $350,000 and Colbert was paid $50,000 for her work, which apparently doesn't figure in the equal pay arguments being made today in Hollywood.
My experience with juries is everyone in the justice system knows they are a crap shoot. They take too long for an uncertain income and the best way of maximizing profits for all of the lawyers involved in the judicial system is to settle. Since someone will lose and someone will win, why not settle and charge your clients as much as possible without having to put the outcome in the hands of the 12 schlubs (non-lawyers) who couldn't figure out how to avoid jury duty, or even worse, people who wanted to serve on a jury.
As if anyone with two or three extra brain cells actually believe 16 round magazines are more deadly than a 15 round magazine. Progressives aren't stupid. They know that the best route to getting rid of all magazines is limit them by 5 rounds per legislative opportunity.
Be safe.
You forget. The burden of Proof, is upon the prosecution to prove. BEYOND a REASONABLE DOUBT. That's not open to interpretation,or is it. :)
While you base everything on IMO your experience[s]. My spouse having sat on 3 juries, where 2 of those were murder cases. What you're saying and what happens behind the closed doors of the jury deliberation, are 2 different things .
Hell a decent portion of jurors (even though they say no) have their minds made up by the second day.
It takes at least 1 juror to question what they heard to convince the others to reconsider their guilty, or not guilty stance.
Then you have the juror who after the 2nd or 3rd day wants a quick ending, so they can get back to work, family, or their email.
IMO. The movie 12 Angry Men is a documentary, of the average jury.
Throw in finding a truly Unbiased juror. Who has lived in a cave as a Luddite with no means of reading ANYTHING happening with current events.
I generally addressed that on my last post - the only loophole is the "luck" in 1/6 jurors (it is a misdemeanor here) refusing to find; still that's not in any way a safe assurance though - most jurors are lead hook and mouth by the judge, even if they fundamentally disagree with the instructions "bu-bu-bu dah judge said we couldn't consider that, and so even though I think he shouldn't be guilty, I got no choice..." (happens quite often - scopes monkey trial comes to mind as a quick example) and that's to say nothing of the funds/time lost that will never be replaced even if you win - which often far exceeds the potential punishment - lose/lose if they are going to prosecute, a result of many pleas.
I also covered the "burden of proof" in the last post. So, I won't reiterate that exactly. Most defendants screw themselves in that regard so it's often not that hard to prove - you even see it here (people constantly explaining how they will prove their innocence). By the time of an arrest, most of the time the officer alone has enough circumstantial evidence to get a case closed - with at most, obtaining enough information to prove one single lie made by the Def. - even unrelated. People are highly likely to do something dumb like say "See, I Bought all dees mags in June of 2013, from Sportsmans Warehouse!" Now, all they have to do to convince a lot of jurors is just get your bank statement from June 2013, which has nothing from Sportsmans - which may be enough to convince some you're a BIG FAT LIER, even if you were telling the truth and paid in cash. (rough example) people don't have the sense to leave the obligation of proving its case to the prosecution.
There's no question that jurors (and judges) have their minds made up a looong time before any deliberation. Many have an innate bias of "well, they got arrested for a reason". What is absent from the jury experience, though, is how much the judge leads the jury in the decision - very rarely does a jury and a judge disagree. In advance of trial, the judge can throw out claims, throw out evidence, deny discovery to defendants, deny the jury from seeing evidence, direct the jury to ignore evidence and testimony (ofc, not all do), instruct the jury "how to think", direct the jury to rule innocent (regardless of if, say, the jury believes the defendant paid the judge), and in almost every case, it is all left undisturbed on appeal to their "discretion" - the judge can even overrule any jury verdict after the fact, save only if the jury finds for innocence - lets also not forget the process starts with sequestering, essentially demanding the jury not undertake any independent investigation or research.... or see or think anything that the judge doesn't personally consent to.
PS: Some is work experience, some is personal experiences (of which people only know a tiny fraction thereof, most I'm not at great liberty to discuss yet), some is also studying the problem. E.g. 96-97% of cases are pled out depending on the jurisdiction, with federal being the worse. 180,000 pages of U.S.C. and 250,000 pages of C.F.R. compared to what, 1,200 pages in a bible? And then, the hidden overwhelming bureaucratic force is the case law, which nobody can count, beyond millions and millions of pages. This is why if anyone ever claims to be a comprehensive legal expert, they're a moron, even if they have a license to practice. There's not a single person alive that can comprehend the scope of even 5% of the laws applicable to us as citizens, and even the Gov't itself can't so much as even count them all after spending many years. (Fed gov't once tried, in the 1980's)
What I find curious is that, at least in my opinion, the early middle ages had a much better system. The jurors were tasked to go out with independent investigation and fact finding; the judge had little to no control. Some jurors were selected because they had personal knowledge, at some times, it was required. (biased jurors would obviously be an issue). The later renaissance system which we adopted, is often described as judges appointed for life being the mere political extension of the king, and juries being consistently lead to stamp the decision of the judge - e.g. a political process merely designed to impress some degree of fairness that doesn't actually exist. That's exactly the system we adopted. (Governors appoint judges in CO, for all intents, for life, as it is nigh impossible to not have a successful retention vote) - and why I call it the "kings court" - judges are politically appointed, and generally follow the whims of the "party", so in our case with e.g. a magazine ban, a defendant would probably be screwed.
I see 9 news is still back slapping themselves in bringing this to light. Wonder what the next story will be, "9 news discovers that people can simply cross the state line and buy and bring back all the high capacity mags. that one can carry, circumventing the law."
Someone needs to point out just how dumb the law is, and how dumb 9 news is for thinking they really found something news worthy.
People don't kill people, full capacity magazines do.
I see 9 news is still back slapping themselves in bringing this to light. Wonder what the next story will be, "9 news discovers that people can simply cross the state line and buy and bring back all the high capacity mags. that one can carry, circumventing the law."
Someone needs to point out just how dumb the law is, and how dumb 9 news is for thinking they really found something news worthy.
The reporter is a California transplant, so it's no surprise he'd make a big deal about this.
And where we're heading:
https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/illegal-knives-easy-to-buy-UK.mp4
O2
And where we're heading:
https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/illegal-knives-easy-to-buy-UK.mp4
O2
Look at the sheep in terror....
KevDen2005
12-05-2019, 17:23
Look at the sheep in terror....
Oh crap, that bracelet knife is at least an inch and a half long....
But more importantly when do we hear what the State Supreme Court says about magazine limits?
But more importantly when do we hear what the State Supreme Court says about magazine limits?
Probably will be a few months before the court issues a ruling. Seems the higher up the courts things go the longer it takes for a decision.
And where we're heading:
https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/illegal-knives-easy-to-buy-UK.mp4
O2
She'd have kittens if she saw some of my kitchen knives.
The Sun: ATTACK SURGE (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9549180/machetes-used-in-almost-400-crimes-per-month-as-blades-become-weapon-of-choice/)Machetes used in almost 400 crimes per month as blades become weapon of choice (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9549180/machetes-used-in-almost-400-crimes-per-month-as-blades-become-weapon-of-choice/)
Great-Kazoo
12-05-2019, 19:37
Oh crap, that bracelet knife is at least an inch and a half long....
But more importantly when do we hear what the State Supreme Court says about magazine limits?
Don't hold your breath, for a ruling coming down in favor of gun owners.
Any RBG sightings lately? I've heard she's just about Weekend at Bernie's status.
JohnnyDrama
12-05-2019, 23:19
Look at the sheep in terror....
She sounded more like she was getting turned on.
Kind of an ammosexual but for blades.
She sounded more like she was getting turned on.
Kind of an ammosexual but for blades.
If she likes them thin with a big belly, than I'm just what she ordered!
Great-Kazoo
12-05-2019, 23:49
just so you folks know. We're a 2A sanctuary household . Just saying.
Are you getting some kind of commission from the AZ Chamber of Commerce and Industry?
just so you folks know. We're a 2A sanctuary household . Just saying.
Hmm. So if a sanctuary household is anything like a sanctuary city then that means I can crash at your place for free and if I choose not to contribute to the household in any way then you?ll take care of me financially and I can pretty much do whatever I want with no fear of consequences?
buffalobo
12-06-2019, 08:50
Hmm. So if a sanctuary household is anything like a sanctuary city then that means I can crash at your place for free and if I choose not to contribute to the household in any way then you?ll take care of me financially and I can pretty much do whatever I want with no fear of consequences?
Probably not, but your magazines can.
Great-Kazoo
12-06-2019, 09:02
Are you getting some kind of commission from the AZ Chamber of Commerce and Industry?
Not yet
Hmm. So if a sanctuary household is anything like a sanctuary city then that means I can crash at your place for free and if I choose not to contribute to the household in any way then you?ll take care of me financially and I can pretty much do whatever I want with no fear of consequences?
of course you can. You're an adult, do what ever you like.
Just remember our secure vehicle storage has some very reasonable storage fees.
Nah, it's a 2nd Amendment Sanctuary house. That's different than a sanctuary house, where "undocumented" immigrants are given drivers licenses and immunity.
A 2nd Amendment Sanctuary just means if the local law enforcement likes you, they won't cite/arrest you. But if they don't like you, they'll still stack on all those charges anyway. So basically, it's how it always works, but with a conservative virtue signaling sign attached to it.
(E.g. if Mr. Bad guy drives through a 2A Sanctuary City with a trunk full of drugs, do you think they aren't going to also stack on magazine charges? )
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