View Full Version : Missile attacks target US forces in Iraq
Most likely Iran.
Missile attacks target US forces in Iraq, senior military source says; Iran suspected
Frank Miles By Frank Miles | Fox News
https://www.foxnews.com/world/missile-attacks-target-us-forces-in-iraq-senior-military-source-says-iran-suspected.amp
SideShow Bob
01-07-2020, 18:10
Beat me to posting about this by > < much..
Bailey Guns
01-07-2020, 18:20
I'm glad I'm not in Iran...
I'm glad I'm not in Iran...
I’m glad I’m not in the middle-east...
Please pray for our troops and American Citizens in Iraq.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/missile-attacks-target-us-forces-in-iraq-senior-military-source-says-iran-suspected (http://www.foxnews.com/world/missile-attacks-target-us-forces-in-iraq-senior-military-source-says-iran-suspected)
theGinsue
01-07-2020, 18:39
Methinks shit is about to get real.
{threads merged}
RblDiver
01-07-2020, 18:46
Destroy every Iranian base, every nuclear plant, everything. Don't go out to win hearts and minds, go out to destroy them, and salt the earth behind.
theGinsue
01-07-2020, 18:52
Destroy every Iranian base, every nuclear plant, everything. Don't go out to win hearts and minds, go out to destroy them, and salt the earth behind.
With the mindset of typical middle-easterners (particularly muslim zealots) this is really the only strategy that has a chance of solving the problem instead of a kumbaya/hands-tied drawn out war. Decimate their will and ability to fight.
It may also serve as a clear warning to the next nation state or group who wishes to do harm to the U.S.
mindfold
01-07-2020, 19:06
Destroy every Iranian base, every nuclear plant, everything. Don't go out to win hearts and minds, go out to destroy them, and salt the earth behind.
Then our tax dollars will be used to help the poor people we caused so much harm to.
I have seen this movie before.....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
eddiememphis
01-07-2020, 19:12
Methinks shit is about to get real.
{threads merged}
Doubtful.
Iran pledged retaliation because their philosophy demands it.
They did so and so it will end. They are not idiots. They are well aware a true war with America will result in a loss.
Both sides will put their dicks away and claim victory and the situation will go back to business as usual.
Then our tax dollars will be used to help the poor people we caused so much harm to.
I have seen this movie before.....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nope, no help. Just destroy the threat, dont rebuild it.
Bailey Guns
01-07-2020, 19:13
Destroy every Iranian base, every nuclear plant, everything. Don't go out to win hearts and minds, go out to destroy them, and salt the earth behind.
Awesome idea.
Then our tax dollars will be used to help the poor people we caused so much harm to.
Reality.
eddiememphis
01-07-2020, 19:16
Destroy every Iranian base, every nuclear plant, everything. Don't go out to win hearts and minds, go out to destroy them, and salt the earth behind.
Not going to happen. Too many political ramifications and without a formal Congressional declaration of war, which will never happen, it would be illegal, both domestically (which matters) and internationally (who cares).
It is going to calm down, unless Israel is attacked, which Iran will never do because it is a guaranteed loss for Iran.
eddiememphis
01-07-2020, 19:27
This is a symbolic retaliatory attack.
It is like when your little brother is being a jerk and you hold him down until he stops. He jumps up and calls you a poopyhead and punches your arm and runs off.
Notice the news says missiles were launched at bases in Iraq, no reports of damage or casualties.
kidicarus13
01-07-2020, 19:29
. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200108/0398e1febbd55d303663b8a5a0523921.jpg
I've been following since the news broke. I think the response needs to be gauged by any lives lost or damage done. If it's just a show for their radicals and they don't hit shit, then they've shown the world how ineffective they really are. If they cause a loss of life, then every launch site and nuke enrichment location needs to be a smoking hole.
So far, no Americans have been harmed in the attack.
eddiememphis
01-07-2020, 19:41
79838
Lighten up, Francis.
Send in the EM-50!
TEAMRICO
01-07-2020, 20:27
I’m to old for this one. Gotta sit it out and watch hon TV. I hope the President rains hell down on them.....but that’s just me.
jreifsch80
01-07-2020, 20:30
79838
Lighten up, Francis.
Send in the EM-50!
We're talking about Iran not Czechoslovakia
Their last chess piece is using Strait of Hormuz as a hostage.
Bailey Guns
01-07-2020, 21:41
^^ They tried that once before. Didn't work out too well for them.
BPTactical
01-07-2020, 21:42
Ukrainian 737 just crashed after take off from Tehran airport.
Huh
Ukrainian 737 just crashed after take off from Tehran airport.
Huh
Video doesnt look like it was a survivable crash.
theGinsue
01-07-2020, 22:19
Ukrainian 737 just crashed after take off from Tehran airport.
Huh
Video doesnt look like it was a survivable crash.
No finding this anywhere in my news feeds. Source/link?
ETA: Found it (5th news source I searched) https://krdo.com/news/national-world/2020/01/07/ukrainian-airlines-plane-crashes-in-tehran-shortly-after-takeoff/
Not the ideal source....
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2020/01/ukrainian-airliner-crashes-tehran-iranian-media-200108032720868.html
.455_Hunter
01-07-2020, 22:29
Ukrainian 737 just crashed after take off from Tehran airport.
Itchy trigger finger on the Iranian Air Defense operators?
Martinjmpr
01-07-2020, 22:44
79839
Bailey Guns
01-07-2020, 23:06
Not seeing how anyone could've survived that. Awful.
I wonder if perhaps someone shut off the GPS in Iran? (Ukraine probably uses GLONASS anyway...)
I wonder if perhaps someone shut off the GPS in Iran? (Ukraine probably uses GLONASS anyway...)
Fire going down would seem to be unrelated to global navigation, unless alt was being referenced and something was contacted on takeoff.
http://scontent.fapa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/82580965_2718608434900848_1743191203832135680_n.jp g?_nc_cat=1&_nc_oc=AQmDCgjBfx03JAHs9fAmkUeXwr9GDsEfnBnBSMs3Agk yoJc--T9V2Px8mCGLXTqaGhk7UAYZ1UaWF4_QO-2J-Dm9&_nc_ht=scontent.fapa1-1.fna&oh=5e240a446ca36839ed34faae2e50b35f&oe=5E8FBF42
BPTactical
01-08-2020, 08:32
Itchy trigger finger on the Iranian Air Defense operators?
I will take this for $100.00 Alex....
Pics show pretty clear damage from foreign objects traveling into the airframe ala shrapnel.
I agree. Debris seemed to be pretty spread out. I'm also not a big fan of 'coincidence' relative to the timing of the "crash".
encorehunter
01-08-2020, 09:12
I did not know this interesting fact about Iran. There are no Walmarts in Iran. I guess they only have Targets there...
Charlie Daniels on Twitter yesterday:
I'm surprised that Pelosi, Schumer and Shiff didn't go to Soleimani's funeral.
Then our tax dollars will be used to help the poor people we caused so much harm to.
I have seen this movie before.....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
<nodding head>
Aloha_Shooter
01-08-2020, 10:16
If there were no Americans harmed in the missile attack, our best bet is to stand back and publicly laugh at their retaliation. Block their international monetary trades until they compensate us for any material damage but laugh the every living s--t out of their knee jerk and ineffective missile attack.
BPTactical
01-08-2020, 10:24
I did not know this interesting fact about Iran. There are no Walmarts in Iran. I guess they only have Targets there...
You win da interznets for the day!
Bailey Guns
01-08-2020, 10:40
Sounds like Iran dodged a bullet this time after Trump's speech. Must be some back-channel negotiations going on and probably explains why Iranian missiles only blew up sand. He did say more economic sanctions will be forthcoming but didn't sound like any type of US military response was imminent.
Tightening of the economic noose. That doesn't bid well for those in power in Iran. They've been dealing with public unrest since November. They're dealing with 70% inflation.
Another wasted opportunity.
Wish we would have put warheads on foreheads before the first missile landed.
Reagan shut down Gaddafi in '86 - not with "greater sanctions" on Libya - with bombs on target.
Iran will continue their terror campaigns across the globe, and as soon as they are successful in a substantial attack, they will claim it was the real revenge for Salami's assassination.
Just more kicking the can down the road with the potential for Iran to become more dangerous and have greater defenses when the time comes.
Do you think that Libya was "fixed" by Reagan? Gaddafi was ultimately taken down internally, long after Reagan was dead.
You can't bomb Iran straight. It will require the people of Iran to do it. We will, however, not stand idly by and let them propagate their war of terrorism in the rest of the region. We also won't fund it (Thanks Obama!).
Bailey Guns
01-08-2020, 13:27
I agree it certainly doesn't solve the Iran problem. But did you watch his brief speech? The very first thing he said, even before greeting the nation, as he got to the podium was:
As long as I'm president of the United States, Iran will never be allowed to have a nuclear weapon.
I think that's sending a pretty strong message. He also left the door open for further strikes. He also threw Obama under the bus re: the cash he sent them.
It also helps immensely to keep our people safe over there. Iran obviously didn't want this to escalate because they know we'd hammer 'em. They don't want that. But they do want to save what little face they have left at home, especially with how volatile the social situation is there. They waste a few missiles blowing up dirt, nobody gets hurt, little if any damage to anything, and they don't get their asses handed to them on a plate. We know the whole regime thing doesn't work...it never has. So to what end do we really want a larger scale conflict?
As much as I like to see our military in action I like seeing them kept safe even more. I think this was a pretty darn good move quite frankly. Trump comes across as stable and level-headed and that can only help to build support for us in the future. Believe me...I'd like to see Iran left as a smoking hole in the desert. But that's not gonna happen so this is a pretty good alternative.
Side note: The bottom is falling out on oil prices.
.455_Hunter
01-08-2020, 13:36
Looking at the satellite battle damage pics on Fox, some missiles definitely hit operational areas and damaged equipment/infrastructure. Shifting the impacts 100 yards could have resulted in major damage to aviation assets.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/pictures-iran-attack-on-the-al-asad-air-base-in-iraq
Not sure if lack of casualties was intended or just luck.
Do you think that Libya was "fixed" by Reagan? Gaddafi was ultimately taken down internally, long after Reagan was dead.
You can't bomb Iran straight. It will require the people of Iran to do it. We will, however, not stand idly by and let them propagate their war of terrorism in the rest of the region. We also won't fund it (Thanks Obama!).
No one can fix anyone in the Middle East. But they can break enough of their stuff and scare them enough to keep them quiet for decades - Reagan. They will rebuild and start up again, and you will have to smack the crap out of them all over again, but at least you had a few decades with less concern.
When was the last time Japan caused trouble?
Ultimately, get every last American out of the Middle East and let them kill each other. This proxy-war money-transfer nonsense needs to end.
I did see Trump's speech today. I also saw his statement on Saturday, "if Iran strikes any Americans, or American assets... Iran itself, WILL BE HIT VERY FAST AND VERY HARD."
Well?
Where did they hit any Americans or American assets? Ain Al Assad Airbase is Iraqi. We have some people there, but where's the support for your statement?
The two suspected missile types launched by Iran against US forces, Fateh-110 and Qiam-1, are not "precise" enough to have intentionally avoided causing extensive damage.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7863085/Iran-launches-dozens-precision-guided-ballistic-Fateh-110-missiles.html
Fateh-110 has a 100m CEP (Circle error Probable). Qiam-1 has a 500m CEP.
https://missilethreat.csis.org/country/iran/
Iran did not avoid casualties and damage through intentional precision.
Look at the crater pics and estimate a 500m diameter circle around the impact points to see what could have been hit.
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/01/08/18/23160272-7865559-image-a-31_1578508711371.jpg
As to the bases being Iraqi and therefore no US assets present? You have got to be kidding.
As to the bases being Iraqi and therefore no US assets present? You have got to be kidding.
Well, that evidence is as unassailable as the Democrat impeachment evidence.
It's a huge facility. Where is your support that American assets were damaged/destroyed?
Well, that evidence is as unassailable as the Democrat impeachment evidence.
It's a huge facility. Where is your support that American assets were damaged/destroyed?
Oh, what the hell, I have time to spare for your education.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/01/iran-attack-forces-iraq-200108022159468.html
Ain al-Asad was the second largest American airbase in Iraq established during the US occupation of the country between 2003 and 2011.
The airbase hosted President Trump during the Christmas holidays in 2018. The visit was Trump?s first journey to a conflict zone since taking office in January 2017.
In 2016, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL, also known as ISIS) also launched attacks at the base, which then housed several hundred US troops and advisers training the Iraqi army after the US withdrawal in 2011.
The POTUS disagrees:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/01/05/donald-trump-threatens-iraq-sanctions-expel-us-troops/2821255001/
We have a very extraordinarily expensive air base that?s there. It cost billions of dollars to build. ... We?re not leaving unless they pay us back for it.
As does Iraq and Iran:
https://www.npr.org/2020/01/08/794501068/what-we-know-irans-missile-strike-against-the-u-s-in-iraq
Iraq's military has confirmed that Iran sent a warning shortly after midnight local time that the missile attack was starting or would soon begin, according to the Iraqi News Agency. The warning stated that while the missiles would hit targets on Iraqi soil, they would be aimed only at U.S. military assets.
Oh, what the hell, I have time to spare for your education.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/01/iran-attack-forces-iraq-200108022159468.html
The POTUS disagrees:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/01/05/donald-trump-threatens-iraq-sanctions-expel-us-troops/2821255001/
As does Iraq and Iran:
https://www.npr.org/2020/01/08/794501068/what-we-know-irans-missile-strike-against-the-u-s-in-iraq
I guess you didn't expect me to read your linked articles....
Trump did not specify which air base he was referring to...
As to believing their statement about "aiming", I guess you can claim that anything they hit was a "US military asset". Seems pretty crazy since we're discussing that they couldn't even reliably aim their missiles to miss targets.
I guess you didn't expect me to read your linked articles....
As to believing their statement about "aiming", I guess you can claim that anything they hit was a "US military asset". Seems pretty crazy since we're discussing that they couldn't even reliably aim their missiles to miss targets.
???
I'm done
Not that you can really trust anything coming out of Iran or WaPo...
Missile strike on U.S. bases ‘did not intend to kill,’ says Iranian commander (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/missile-strike-on-us-bases-did-not-intend-to-kill-says-iranian-commander/ar-BBYMEBU)
ISTANBUL —An Iranian military commander said Thursday that a barrage of missiles fired at bases used by U.S. troops in Iraq were not aimed at inflicting casualties, in the latest sign that Iran was seeking to avoid any further escalation of hostilities with the United States.
After more than a dozen missiles crashed down on the bases on Tuesday, both sides for now appear to be stepping back from further conflict.
“We did not intend to kill,” said Brig. Gen. Amir Ali Hajizadeh, the head of the Revolutionary Guards Aerospace Force, according to Iranian state media. “We intended to hit the enemy’s military machinery.” He did, however, repeat the government’s claim that “tens of people were killed or wounded.” U.S. and Iraqi officials said the strikes caused no casualties.
Ukrainian 737 just crashed after take off from Tehran airport.
Huh
US Officials are confident that the plane was shot down by Iranian forces.
ETA: US officials: 'Highly likely' Iran downed Ukrainian jetliner (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-officials-highly-likely-iran-downed-ukrainian-jetliner/ar-BBYLJo2)
WASHINGTON (AP) — Two U.S. officials said Thursday it was “highly likely” that an Iranian anti-aircraft missile downed a Ukrainian jetliner late Tuesday, killing all 176 people on board.
The crash came just a few hours after Iran launched a ballistic missile attack against Iraqi military bases housing U.S. troops amid a confrontation with Washington over the U.S. drone strike that killed an Iranian Revolutionary Guard general last week. The officials, citing U.S. intelligence, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive information. They had no immediate information on intent.
President Donald Trump suggested that he believes Iran was responsible and wouldn't directly lay the blame on Iran, but dismissed their claims that it was a mechanical issue — and denied any U.S. responsibility.'
“Somebody could have made a mistake on the other side.," Trump said, noting the plane was flying in a “pretty rough neighborhood."
“Some people say it was mechanical,” Trump added. "I personally don't think that's even a question."'
THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. AP's earlier story follows below.
The crew of a Ukrainian jetliner that crashed in Iran, killing all 176 people on board, never made a radio call for help and was trying to turn back for the airport when the burning plane went down, an initial Iranian investigative report said Thursday. Ukraine, meanwhile, said it considered a missile strike as one of several possible theories for the crash, despite Iran's denials.
The Iranian report suggests that a sudden emergency struck the Boeing 737 operated by Ukrainian International Airlines early on Wednesday morning, when it crashed, just minutes after taking off from Imam Khomeini International Airport in Tehran.
Investigators from Iran's Civil Aviation Organization offered no immediate explanation for the disaster, however. Iranian officials initially blamed a technical malfunction for the crash, something initially backed by Ukrainian officials before they said they wouldn't speculate amid an ongoing investigation.
The crash came just a few hours after Iran launched a ballistic missile attack against Iraqi military bases housing U.S. troops amid a confrontation with Washington over it killing an Iranian Revolutionary Guard general in a drone strike last week.
The Ukrainian International Airlines took off at 6:12 a.m. Wednesday, after nearly an hour's delay at Tehran's Imam Khomeini Airport, the main airport for travelers in Iran. It gained altitude heading west, reaching nearly 8,000 feet, according to both the report and flight-tracking data.
Then something went wrong, though “no radio messages were received from the pilot regarding unusual situations,” the report said. In emergencies, pilots reach out to air-traffic controllers to warn them and to clear the runway for their arrival, though their first priority is to keep the aircraft flying.
Eyewitnesses, including the crew of another flight passing above it, described seeing the plane engulfed in flames before crashing at 6:18 a.m., the report said. Flight-tracking data for the plane stopped before the crash, which occurred in the town of Shahedshahr to the northeast of the plane's last reported position. That's the wrong direction of the flight plan, bolstering the report's claim that the pilots tried to turn the aircraft back to the airport.
The crash caused a massive explosion when the plane hit the ground, likely because the aircraft had been fully loaded with fuel for the flight to Kyiv, Ukraine.
The report also confirmed that both of the so-called “black boxes” that contain data and cockpit communications from the plane had been recovered, though they sustained damage and some parts of their memory was lost. It also said that investigators have initially ruled out laser or electromagnetic interference as causing the crash.
Oleksiy Danilov, secretary of Ukraine's Security Council, told Ukrainian media that officials had several working theories regarding the crash, including a missile strike.
"A strike by a missile, possibly a Tor missile system, is among the main (theories), as information has surfaced on the internet about elements of a missile being found near the site of the crash," Danilov said. He did not elaborate on where he saw the information on the internet.
Ukrainian investigators that arrived in Iran earlier on Thursday currently await permission from Iranian authorities to examine the crash site and look for missile fragments, Danilov said.
The Tor is a Russian-made missile system. Russia delivered 29 Tor-M1s to Iran in 2007 as part of a $700 million contract signed in December 2005. Iran has displayed the missiles in military parades as well.
Iran did not immediately respond to the Ukrainian comments. However, Gen. Abolfazl Shekarchi, the spokesman of the Iranian armed forces, denied a missile hit the airplane in a comments reported Wednesday by the semiofficial Fars news agency. He dismissed the allegation as "psychological warfare" by foreign-based Iranian opposition groups.
Ukraine has a grim history with missile attacks, including in July 2014 when one such strike downed a Malaysian Airlines flight over eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 people aboard.
Danilov also said other possible causes under consideration included a drone or another flying object crashing into the plane, a terrorist attack or an engine malfunction causing an explosion. However, no terror group has claimed responsibility for the attack and the plane was only 3? years old.
Oleksandr Zaporozhchenko, a mechanic with the Ukraine International Airlines in 2016-2018, said he knew one of the crew members of the plane and had never heard any complaints about the aircraft.
“It is one the most reliable planes out there,” Zaporozhchenko told The Associated Press.
The manufacturer of the plane's engines, U.S.-French firm CFM, declined to comment. French air accident investigators have not been asked to take part in the investigation so far.
The plane was carrying 167 passengers and nine crew members from several countries, including 82 Iranians, at least 63 Canadians and 11 Ukrainians, according to officials. Many of the passengers were believed to be international students attending universities in Canada; they were making their way back to Toronto by way of Kyiv after visiting with family during the winter break.
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy said he planned to call Iranian President Hassan Rouhani about the crash and the investigation.
“Undoubtedly, the priority for Ukraine is to identify the causes of the plane crash,” Zelenskiy said. “We will surely find out the truth.”
The crash ranked among the worst losses of life for Canadians in an aviation disaster. The flag over Parliament in Ottawa was lowered to half-staff, and Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has vowed to get to the bottom of the disaster.
While the cause of the tragedy remained unknown, the disaster could further damage Boeing’s reputation, which has been battered by the furor over two deadly crashes involving a different model of the Boeing jet, the much-newer 737 Max, which has been grounded for nearly 10 months. The uproar led to the firing of the company’s CEO last month.
Boeing extended condolences to the victims’ families and said it stands ready to assist. However, it remains unclear if Iran will allow that amid tensions with Washington, given Boeing is a U.S.-based firm.
If Iran launched a SAM, the US saw it.
The US knows what happened - this is just more political theater playing itself out.
hollohas
01-09-2020, 12:23
WWIII??
I don't think so.
It didn't start when MH17 was shot down over Ukraine. Nobody really seemed to bat an eye about that one.
And now another passenger plane is shot down. And apparently with a RUSSIAN missile just like MH17.
Civilian aircraft shot down using Russian equipment more than once now and nothing will happen. This will be old news before February.
DenverGP
01-09-2020, 12:40
If Iran launched a SAM, the US saw it.
The US knows what happened - this is just more political theater playing itself out.
From the USA today article:
CBS News, citing unnamed sources, reported that U.S. intelligence picked up signals of a radar being turned on, and that U.S. satellites also detected two surface-to-air missile launches shortly before the plane exploded. Federal officials were briefed on the intelligence Thursday, and a source who was in the briefing said it appears missile components were found near the crash site, CBS reported.
The Iranians also grabbed the black boxes right away and...mysteriously...the data is lost. [Dunno]
The left is pushing this WWIII BS. Now the young'uns that get their news from social media are being targeted by selective service scams. Yeah, sure, you need to pay to register. Riiiight.
Martinjmpr
01-09-2020, 13:03
Now the young'uns that get their news from social media are being targeted by selective service scams. Yeah, sure, you need to pay to register. Riiiight.
What is the Emoji string for "Greetings from the President of the United States?" [ROFL1]
It's being reported that the US detected the launch of 2 SA-15 missiles.
Bailey Guns
01-09-2020, 15:57
US Officials are confident that the plane was shot down by Iranian forces.
I kinda figured that would be the finding a day or two after the crash.
It's pretty hard to hide a missile launch these days from satellites and other airborne platforms. Just a matter of time before the info was released.
My guess is somebody f'd up. Wouldn't be the first time a civilian airliner was shot down, intentionally or by mistake. We've done it, too. Coming from Iran as a matter of fact.
Yep, USS Vincennes in 1988. The SA-15 launcher could have been left in automatic mode to fire on anything it identified as a target.
Bailey Guns
01-09-2020, 16:32
I was pretty intimately involved in the information collection during the KAL007 shoot-down in 1983. Even back then it was hard to hide something like that.
I seem to recall that the resources that monitor launches are at Buckley.
Yeah, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckley_Air_Force_Base
Buckley Air Force Base is assigned to Space Operations Command (formerly the Fourteenth Air Force) and serves more than 92,000 active duty, National Guard, Reserve and retired personnel throughout the Front Range community. The host unit is the 460th Space Wing. Buckley AFB supports air operations, space-based missile warning capabilities, space surveillance operations, space communications operations and installation support functions.[2]
Martinjmpr
01-09-2020, 17:53
Yep, USS Vincennes in 1988. The SA-15 launcher could have been left in automatic mode to fire on anything it identified as a target.
Given the timing (shortly after their rocket attack on the US bases in Iraq) the Air Defenders were probably told to expect immediate retaliation from US aircraft or drones and were put on whatever their equivalent of "DEFCON-1" is, i..e. full alert.
However, IIRC ADA systems are supposed to have something called an "IFF" or Identify Friend or Foe transponder system and I thought all civilian aircraft did too. The way I thought it worked was that the ADA system would send out a signal and the transponder would reply instantly with a signal that meant "Civilian Aircraft, don't shoot!"
So it seems that somebody with an itchy trigger finger either disrgarded the IFF or that the system wasn't in use.
Either way it's a terrible tragedy that cost innocent people their lives.
Civilian aircraft have a transponder, but I don't think they are equipped with IFF.
Iran was controlling their attack timing. They should have closed the civilian airport for at least 24 hours.
I was pretty intimately involved in the information collection during the KAL007 shoot-down in 1983. Even back then it was hard to hide something like that.
I will never forget KAL007.
I will never forget KAL007.
Yep. The Soviet pilot that shot it down knew it was a Boeing passenger aircraft, but insisted that he didn't do anything wrong.
RblDiver
01-09-2020, 19:02
Don't know why this camera was looking where he was, but appears to show the airliner getting hit by a missile:
https://twitter.com/livi_kivi/status/1215337006596751360
Check out this video: https://twitter.com/livi_kivi/status/1215412044645748736?s=20
Orange flames, headed to the ground, and hits the ground in a huge fireball.
Don't know why this camera was looking where he was, but appears to show the airliner getting hit by a missile:
https://twitter.com/livi_kivi/status/1215337006596751360
That's the most damning one so far....
Bailey Guns
01-09-2020, 19:31
Pretty damning video...the missile one.
Bunch of stuff here, much of which you can see in preview mode
https://t.me/s/ps752
Aloha_Shooter
01-09-2020, 22:54
The left is pushing this WWIII BS. Now the young'uns that get their news from social media are being targeted by selective service scams. Yeah, sure, you need to pay to register. Riiiight.
Interestingly, my nephew just asked me about this "WW III" BS this evening. I explained the situation and that Iran knows we'd beat the ever-living tar out of them.
Iran really has no allies. I can't see other nations stepping in on their behalf to start spreading this to a WW type of situation.
Iran really has no allies. I can't see other nations stepping in on their behalf to start spreading this to a WW type of situation.
Unless Iran were to attack Israel, and Israel decided to do something significant about it. Then the Arab nations would feel compelled to put aside their differences to deal with "Zionist imperialism", and come to the aid of their "Muslim brothers", whom they would happily have slaughtered the day before.
I think Israel could take care of that on their own.
http://youtu.be/2qGWJI3a-GU
Martinjmpr
01-10-2020, 10:36
Unless Iran were to attack Israel, and Israel decided to do something significant about it. Then the Arab nations would feel compelled to put aside their differences to deal with "Zionist imperialism", and come to the aid of their "Muslim brothers", whom they would happily have slaughtered the day before.
Iran has been attacking Israel by proxy for years, through their support of Hezbollah in Lebanon.
And I think that's the extent of their capabilities right there - hurling some rockets at populated places through a deniable third party. It's not like they have a credible air force or navy.
Sure they can send "wave after wave of their own men (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF3g4Ua5e7k)" to get slaughtered on the ground, but as far as "projecting power" goes, they don't have the means to do so.
As far as their "Muslim brothers" go, the Saudis and Iraqis have hated on the Iranians for decades, so it's not like they're going to do anything more than wring their hands and say "ain't it awful?"
Israel has handed the Arab nations their ass in previous conflicts, but now are armed to the teeth and have some of the best pilots on the planet. This scenario would be over in days if not hours.
colorider
01-10-2020, 11:40
Took an advanced pistol class 2 years ago and one of the attendees was an Israeli soldier. All I can say is they are savage. They have to serve and are trained at a young age. This guy could shoot and his hand to hand combat skills were awesome. Super nice guy too.
Oh, really?
Iran Says It Unintentionally Shot Down Ukrainian Airliner (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/iran-says-it-unintentionally-shot-down-ukrainian-airliner/ar-BBYQdgZ)
Yeah, everyone else is politically motivated, but Iran isn't. Riiight. Can't trust anything out of those shitheads.
After maintaining for days that there was no evidence to show one of its missiles had struck the plane, the Iranian military said it was an accident caused by human error.
Iran announced early Saturday that it had accidentally shot down a Ukrainian passenger jet, blaming it on human error because of what it called the plane’s sharp, unexpected turn toward a sensitive military base, according to a statement issued by the country’s military.
The announcement reversed Iran’s claims that mechanical issues caused the crash of the aircraft, which killed all 176 people aboard. It had persistently denied that Iranian military defenses had downed the aircraft, a Boeing 737-800.
International pressure had been building on Iran to take responsibility. American and allied intelligence assessments have said that Iranian missiles brought down the plane, most likely by accident, amid the heightened tensions between the United States and Iran.
Suspicions that an Iranian missile had brought down the plane began immediately after Wednesday morning’s crash — just hours after Iran fired missiles at two bases in Iraq housing American forces.
Official Iranian news media had cited technical problems as the cause in the hours after the crash. Iran’s Civil Aviation Organization chief, Ali Abedzadeh, doubled down on that assessment on Friday, saying nothing could be determined until the data from the black boxes was analyzed, and he characterized statements made by other nations as politically motivated.
But by late Friday, officials were considering acknowledging that Iranian missiles brought down the jet, according to four Iranians familiar with the deliberations. The government was also weighing whether to blame faulty jet equipment.
An Iranian report released on Thursday said that the plane, bound for the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv, was in flames before it hit the ground but sent no distress signal.
Video verified by The New York Times and published on Thursday appeared to show a missile fired from Iranian territory hitting the plane, Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752. The video showed a small explosion as the plane flew above Parand, a city near the airport — where it stopped transmitting its signal before it crashed. The plane turned back toward the airport before it exploded and crashed, other videos verified by The Times showed.
When Iran began firing missiles early on Wednesday in retaliation for the killing of Maj. Gen. Qassim Suleimani by the United States in Baghdad, international airlines rerouted flights away from Iran, and the Federal Aviation Administration barred American carriers from the airspace in the region.
After the crash, experts raised questions about why Iranian authorities had not stopped flights in and out of Tehran.
In Iran, a debate over how much blame the government bears threatened to destroy the national solidarity that followed the country’s conflict with the United States. Many Iranians said that their anger over the lack of accountability at the highest levels of government had quickly returned.
On Friday, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said that the United States and its allies had intelligence showing that the passenger jet had been shot down.
“We do believe that it’s likely that the plane was shot down by an Iranian missile,” Mr. Pompeo said at a briefing at the White House announcing new sanctions against Iran. “We’re going to let the investigation play out before we make a final determination. It’s important that we get to the bottom of it.”
Mr. Pompeo was the first American official to publicly confirm the intelligence assessments.
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau of Canada, citing a preliminary review of the evidence, called for a full investigation “to be convinced beyond all doubt.” The jetliner was carrying 57 Canadians among its 176 passengers and crew.
“We recognize that this may have been done accidentally,” Mr. Trudeau said at a news conference in Ottawa. “The evidence suggests very clearly a possible and probable cause for the crash.”
President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine made clear on Friday that Western governments had not initially shared the evidence underpinning their assessments that Iran had brought down the Ukrainian jet, though later a spokeswoman said that American officials had handed over more information.
Ukrainian officials also analyzed the plane’s flight pattern on Friday and determined it had stayed within the normal corridor for flights out of Tehran’s Imam Khomeini International Airport, Ukraine’s foreign minister, Vadym Prystaiko, said at a news conference.
State television in Iran aired footage that it said showed two black boxes recovered from the crash site. Processing their data could take more than a month, and the investigation could take up to two years, Hassan Rezaeifar, the head of the Iranian investigation team, said Friday.
They admit that they did it, but continue to lie about why.
Circuits
01-11-2020, 02:31
Oh, really?
They admit that they did it, but continue to lie about why.
Denial ain't just a river in Africa.
Bailey Guns
01-11-2020, 06:34
They admit that they did it, but continue to lie about why.
Sounds like a lot of democrats...especially those named Clinton.
Originally posted by CS1983 in the other thread, I recommend for anyone that wants a deeper understanding of the complexities over there:
Fascinating article from 2013 on Soleimani.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/09/30/the-shadow-commander
Seems like he was a capable guy who had cut his teeth in a horrible war, and who was a rather worthy adversary.
Seem's everyone in the US is an expert on middle eastern politics anymore, everywhere we go. Yet, many in the U.S. can't hardly place a single country on a map. The link posted by CS1983 is actually quite valuable. The ramifications of the killing are complex. No, we're obviously not going to war and we never were. Iran is not "ran" by idiots, of course they ran stories that they killed U.S. citizens to appease their populace without actually triggering the U.S. One likely ramification of the killing is the U.S. getting pushed out of Iraq - Mahdi was Soleimani & Iran's bitch, not ours, and he was selected by Soleimani. Iran is far more influential in Iraq than we ever were. Iraq is majority Shite, same as Iran. It at minimum, pushes Iraq far closer to Iran; at worst, we are getting booted out, which seems likely in the future. Iraq is already used to evade the Iranian sanctions, and the Quds are pretty much entirely funded through Iraq. Combined with the recent Syria drama, Iran is actually had a lot of "victories" in the middle east this year, and their regional influence is expanding significantly over the last few years, between Hezbollah, now the Kurds, and even deeper support in Iraq.
People can mumble about "nuking them into glass" all they want, it's a fiction that won't happen. The reality is Iran either already has nuclear weapons, or will shortly; and nobody is going to do anything about it beyond the prior attempts to bide time. With their expanding influence, and their fragile economy, it makes the regional situation even more of a complicated, hot mess than it otherwise would have been.
"What does it matter, let em' nuke each other into oblivion" - Take time to learn a bit about international politics before we have knee-jerk reactions either in support or against policy makers. No question, the guy deserved to die, however Iran's entrenched politics and state media are more mature than our own, and it seems they'll be able to get miles of capital and gains from his death; far more value than if he still breathed air. Time will tell what the implications are; I'm not going to join in the praise wagon because it's complicated. Trump himself didn't even know a single thing about Soleimani or the Quds in pre-election interviews, as he's not a reader I doubt he knew anything beyond a cursory briefing prior to ordering the hit.
It won't be a war, it's not going to be a bunch of people killed, but it does seem to make Iran stronger politically; and won't deter them at all from continuing to f#$# with us in the middle east, especially through proxies. Considering all the implications, I have doubts the original decision was one made with wisdom.
[PS: I am not a fan of Iran and view them as one of the biggest sponsors and influencers of terror and radical Islam - I was of an opinion back in the early 2000's that we should've invaded Iran, not Iraq....] However - I am also pragmatic, and live in the land of reality. I know we're not going to formally attack them, and they know it too.
Rucker61
01-11-2020, 11:04
Originally posted by CS1983 in the other thread, I recommend for anyone that wants a deeper understanding of the complexities over there:
Seem's everyone in the US is an expert on middle eastern politics anymore, everywhere we go. Yet, many in the U.S. can't hardly place a single country on a map. The link posted by CS1983 is actually quite valuable. The ramifications of the killing are complex. No, we're obviously not going to war and we never were. Iran is not "ran" by idiots, of course they ran stories that they killed U.S. citizens to appease their populace without actually triggering the U.S. One likely ramification of the killing is the U.S. getting pushed out of Iraq - Mahdi was Soleimani & Iran's bitch, not ours, and he was selected by Soleimani. Iran is far more influential in Iraq than we ever were. Iraq is majority Shite, same as Iran. It at minimum, pushes Iraq far closer to Iran; at worst, we are getting booted out, which seems likely in the future. Iraq is already used to evade the Iranian sanctions, and the Quds are pretty much entirely funded through Iraq. Combined with the recent Syria drama, Iran is actually had a lot of "victories" in the middle east this year, and their regional influence is expanding significantly over the last few years, between Hezbollah, now the Kurds, and even deeper support in Iraq.
People can mumble about "nuking them into glass" all they want, it's a fiction that won't happen. The reality is Iran either already has nuclear weapons, or will shortly; and nobody is going to do anything about it beyond the prior attempts to bide time. With their expanding influence, and their fragile economy, it makes the regional situation even more of a complicated, hot mess than it otherwise would have been.
"What does it matter, let em' nuke each other into oblivion" - Take time to learn a bit about international politics before we have knee-jerk reactions either in support or against policy makers. No question, the guy deserved to die, however Iran's entrenched politics and state media are more mature than our own, and it seems they'll be able to get miles of capital and gains from his death; far more value than if he still breathed air. Time will tell what the implications are; I'm not going to join in the praise wagon because it's complicated. Trump himself didn't even know a single thing about Soleimani or the Quds in pre-election interviews, as he's not a reader I doubt he knew anything beyond a cursory briefing prior to ordering the hit.
It won't be a war, it's not going to be a bunch of people killed, but it does seem to make Iran stronger politically; and won't deter them at all from continuing to f#$# with us in the middle east, especially through proxies. Considering all the implications, I have doubts the original decision was one made with wisdom.
[PS: I am not a fan of Iran and view them as one of the biggest sponsors and influencers of terror and radical Islam - I was of an opinion back in the early 2000's that we should've invaded Iran, not Iraq....] However - I am also pragmatic, and live in the land of reality. I know we're not going to formally attack them, and they know it too.
[applause]
spqrzilla
01-11-2020, 11:23
Those that repeat the reflexive belief that all "Arab" countries will unite against Isreal are decades out of date on the reality of the Middle East. Israel has good working alliances with many other countries in the Middle East, often covert, to protect each other from Iran. Reports exist of large scale military equipment sales as well as other cooperation with Saudi Arabia.
Those that repeat the reflexive belief that all "Arab" countries will unite against Isreal are decades out of date on the reality of the Middle East. Israel has good working alliances with many other countries in the Middle East, often covert, to protect each other from Iran. Reports exist of large scale military equipment sales as well as other cooperation with Saudi Arabia.
That's not a belief that I carry, and it's as naive as most of the rest of the U.S. beliefs on the middle east. I wouldn't go so far as to say they (e.g. Saudi Arabian sect) are allied with Israel in the traditional sense, it is more from a political perspective of the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" as the differences held between some of the ethnic groups of Muslims is in many ways, filled with far more vitriol than their differences with Jews. And Iran is never going to "wipe Israel off the map". There will be an ongoing proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran for probably decades into the future unless some sort of major upheaval happens, and there will be an occasional proxy war between Isreal and Hezbolla for years into the future, as Isreal has it's hands cuffed and can't resolve the underlying issue. Iran has free license to do this proxy bullshit because nobody really wants to start a declared war - with serious implications I'm not droning on about here.
But here's the thing....
Iran might supply a nuke to Hezbolla many years in the future. The only thing holding them back is plausible deniability. If they can achieve that, they'd be likely to do it. The issue with Iran is they have figured out asymmetric warfare to achieve their goals. They'll never declare war on Isreal; but that doesn't stop them from trying to kill a million of them. Even then; a lot of the statements (wipe Isreal off the map) are political ones for state media to appease their populace; the leadership has got a strong pulse on the real politics of the region and may not actually mean it. Someday Ayatolla will croak, and if his replacement is young and dumb, it could seriously destabilize a lot of things, and that may be the only situation that leads to a declared war.
That's not a belief that I carry, and it's as naive as most of the rest of the U.S. beliefs on the middle east. I wouldn't go so far as to say they (e.g. Saudi Arabian sect) are allied with Israel in the traditional sense, it is more from a political perspective of the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" as the differences held between some of the ethnic groups of Muslims is in many ways, filled with far more vitriol than their differences with Jews. And Iran is never going to "wipe Israel off the map". There will be an ongoing proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran for probably decades into the future unless some sort of major upheaval happens, and there will be an occasional proxy war between Isreal and Hezbolla for years into the future, as Isreal has it's hands cuffed and can't resolve the underlying issue. Iran has free license to do this proxy bullshit because nobody really wants to start a declared war - with serious implications I'm not droning on about here.
But here's the thing....
Iran might supply a nuke to Hezbolla many years in the future. The only thing holding them back is plausible deniability. If they can achieve that, they'd be likely to do it. The issue with Iran is they have figured out asymmetric warfare to achieve their goals. They'll never declare war on Isreal; but that doesn't stop them from trying to kill a million of them. Even then; a lot of the statements (wipe Isreal off the map) are political ones for state media to appease their populace; the leadership has got a strong pulse on the real politics of the region and may not actually mean it. Someday Ayatolla will croak, and if his replacement is young and dumb, it could seriously destabilize a lot of things, and that may be the only situation that leads to a declared war.
An expert in law and the middle east. Everyone else that doesn't agree is naive. Is it possible to present your argument without having to label people that don't agree with you?
In my estimation, Israel will prevent Iran from getting a nuke if our leadership doesn't have the balls to do it. They've already made an example of Iraq and their nuclear ambitions.
I admit I got a chuckle when I read this;
Iraq is majority Shite, same as Iran.
Freudian slip, or did you really mean shite and not Shiite? [Coffee]
An expert in law and the middle east. Everyone else that doesn't agree is naive. Is it possible to present your argument without having to label people that don't agree with you?
In my estimation, Israel will prevent Iran from getting a nuke if our leadership doesn't have the balls to do it. They've already made an example of Iraq and their nuclear ambitions.
I admit I got a chuckle when I read this;
Freudian slip, or did you really mean shite and not Shiite? [Coffee]
So you don't actually have much to say in disagreement, but want to insert a straw-man as per usual... Or are you actually arguing the majority of people in the U.S.A. are well informed on the middle east? I'm pretty sure a sizable portion doesn't even know how many states the U.S. has *cough* Obama *cough*, so that would be a compelling argument for you to make. Yet, ask anyone in the U.S. and it's hard to find anyone that doesn't have a strong, unbending opinion one way or another on middle east policy - as I tersely put it before. Nowhere do I proclaim to be an expert; but it is becoming apparent you can't handle differing opinions at all...
As far as Israel... they can and have bought time.They may yet again. That doesn't last forever. Israel can't "nuke" Iran simply for building one, nor can it go to war over it, nor is its abilities boundless.
Apparently you missed the point. Again. I certainly don't call people "naive" because they don't agree with me. You're diverting to the population of the country, but it was a position also held by a member of this forum. It's your opinion or your understanding, but you are not an authority on the subject.
Israel can destroy their infrastructure before they ever get a nuke. They've done it before and I wouldn't put it past them to do it again. When nations threaten to wipe your people and nation off the map, and have ambitions to build a nuke to presumably use against you, you have to take them seriously.
Apparently you missed the point. Again. I certainly don't call people "naive" because they don't agree with me. It's your opinion or your understanding, but you are not an authority on the subject.
Israel can destroy their infrastructure before they ever get a nuke. They've done it before and I wouldn't put it past them to do it again. When nations threaten to wipe your people and nation off the map, and have ambitions to build a nuke to presumably use against you, you have to take them seriously.
Oh, you're point must be lost in unnecessary exaggeration and baiting, and completely fails to make one.
... I was calling the "reflexive belief that is decades out of date" [e.g. all muslim nations rising against Isreal] that spqrzilla mentioned as naive, or in other words, general agreement with him.... (with my opinion only clarifying that it isn't traditional allied relations per se) and yes, that "everyone rises against Isreal" belief is naive; e.g. out of date and inexperienced. I'm not sure if anyone ever made such an argument here in support of it. Nowhere have I said people that disagree with me are naive. Saying that the majority (more than 50%) of U.S. citizens are almost entirely ignorant, e.g. naive on the matter shouldn't offend you, as many of them are on pretty much everything else that isn't pop culture.
And yet, it's incredibly rare to ask someone their opinion and get an answer "I honestly don't know..." or "I'm not sure..." or "I don't have enough information".
PS: You'll note my original post doesn't take a stance, other than e.g. "It may not have been wise... we will see".
My apologies. The wording in your response seemed contradictory. Apparently, I agree with both of you in that not all muslim nations will rise against Israel. The first nation that comes to mind is Egypt, with whom Israel has had a long standing treaty.
The Sunnis and Shiites also can't agree on much.
My apologies. The wording in your response seemed contradictory. Apparently, I agree with both of you in that not all muslim nations will rise against Israel. The first nation that comes to mind is Egypt, with whom Israel has had a long standing treaty.
The Sunnis and Shiites also can't agree on much.
Agreed, they are also all shite, of course [Muaha] - and I see I could have phrased it better.
Interesting...
Protests Erupt in Iran after Military Admits Downing Ukrainian Passenger Jet: "Death to the Dictator" (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/protests-erupt-in-iran-after-military-admits-downing-ukrainian-passenger-jet-death-to-the-dictator/ar-BBYRlhI)
Protesters in Iran are demanding that Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei steps down, after the country's military admitted to accidentally downing a Ukrainian passenger jet, killing all 176 people on board.
Ukraine International Airlines flight PS752 crashed shortly after leaving Imam Khomeini International Airport in the Iranian capital of Tehran on Wednesday. It came days after President Donald Trump ordered adrone strike in Iraq to kill Qassem Soleimani, the head of Iran's Revolutionary Guards Quds Force, on January 3, escalating tensions between the countries.
On Saturday afternoon, thousands of people gathered in Tehran's main squares as meetings organized on social media to mourn the dead transformed into protests against the military's mistake, The New York Times reported. Chants in videos seen on social media by the newspaper included "Death to liars!", "Death to the dictator!" and "You have no shame."
An angry crowd in front of Amir Kabir university in the city appeared to chant "Commander-in-chief (Khamenei) resign, resign" in a video, according to Reuters. The news agency said it could not verify the authenticity of the video footage.
The semi-official Iranian Fars News Agency, which is linked to the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps, demanded those responsible be held accountable, and said the shortcomings of the country's leaders had made the "tragedy twice as bitter," according to The New York Times.
Earlier in the day, angry Iranians took to social media to ask why civilians had become the victims of their country's "harsh revenge," according to The New York Times. Following the death of the top military commander, Iranian officials pledged to exact vengeance against the U.S.. Last week, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei promised harsh revenge against the "criminals" who killed Soleimani, Reuters reported. The Iranian Ambassador to the United Nations Majid Takht Ravanchi made a similar threat in an interview with CNN last week, as did Abdollah Araghi, a senior commander of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps, on Thursday, The New York Times reported citing Iran's Tasnim news agency.
Freelance journalist Mojtaba Fathi tweeted, according to a translation: "They were supposed to take their harsh revenge against America, not the people."
Iran had initially denied reports that one if its missiles hit the aircraft. But on Thursday, U.S. officials told Newsweek they suspected that Iran's anti-aircraft systems had struck the Ukrainian flight, accidentally killing the passengers and crew on board. Of those killed, 82 were Iranian, 63 were Canadian and 11 were Ukrainian, 10 were Swedish, seven were Afghan, and three were German nationals.
On Saturday morning, Iran's military said, in a statement published by the official IRNA news agency that an investigation had revealed it had in fact downed the Ukrainian passenger jet "unintentionally, due to human error."
It explained its airforce defense units were on high alert after Soleimani's death. In "such a sensitive and critical situation" the Ukrainian aircraft had "moved very close to a sensitive military spot" belonging to Iran's Revolutionary Guards. The "altitude and the direction of the flight's movement were like an enemy target," the statement read.
Iranian president Hassan Rouhani tweeted on Saturday: "The Islamic Republic of Iran deeply regrets this disastrous mistake. My thoughts and prayers go to all the mourning families. I offer my sincerest condolences."
buffalobo
01-11-2020, 21:05
Not sure how killing a war criminal is a bad thing. Those waging jihad against America will never stop trying to kill Americans. Don't see how it makes much difference if it pisses jihadis or their countrymen off or anybody else around the world for that matter.
There will always be another to take his place, hopefully with much less success and shorter career, cause never bad thing to eliminate a war criminal.
Not sure how killing a war criminal is a bad thing. Those waging jihad against America will never stop trying to kill Americans. Don't see how it makes much difference if it pisses jihadis or their countrymen off or anybody else around the world for that matter.
There will always be another to take his place, hopefully with much less success and shorter career, cause never bad thing to eliminate a war criminal.
Why not openly assassinate Kim Jong Un then? Possibly no bigger humanitarian criminal alive. Or would the ramifications of that cause more problem then it's worth doing?
Alas.... same in the middle east. Such decisions should be always taken with consideration of the long term cause, effect, cost, and value. This decision might very well have cost us Iraq... but for what benefit? As you've said, there's always another to take their place, so strategically, it doesn't really benefit, other then inducing a fear of "we'll get you individually.... but only after 20+ years of screwing with us".
Future prediction: Trump announces a troop withdrawl from Iraq before the elections - or at least a committed plan in place to do so announced before the elections - taking credit and asserting it to be his idea. (it won't be).
buffalobo
01-11-2020, 21:46
I don't know that Un is a war criminal. Has he or his proxy repeatedly declared war against America? Killed or ordered killed Americans?
As to rest, meh, they have been a threat in the past and will continue to be so in the future.
No need for us to be "in Iraq" for any other reason than spying/intelligence.
Great-Kazoo
01-11-2020, 22:00
Why not openly assassinate Kim Jong Un then? Possibly no bigger humanitarian criminal alive. Or would the ramifications of that cause more problem then it's worth doing?
Alas.... same in the middle east. Such decisions should be always taken with consideration of the long term cause, effect, cost, and value. This decision might very well have cost us Iraq... but for what benefit? As you've said, there's always another to take their place, so strategically, it doesn't really benefit, other then inducing a fear of "we'll get you individually.... but only after 20+ years of screwing with us".
Future prediction: Trump announces a troop withdrawl from Iraq before the elections - or at least a committed plan in place to do so announced before the elections - taking credit and asserting it to be his idea. (it won't be).
Like Obama shutting Gitmo down? Or getting us out of the middle east?
From what I've been able to find, the US intelligence and military took into consideration if Soleimani was killed, would his replacement be better or worse for us. They determined his replacement would not be nearly as effective as Soleimani in killing Americans.
...and that's the key here. Soleimani had been killing Americans. As a bonus, Soleimani had been highly influential in creating unrest all over the mid-east through Iran's proxies. This will likely shake up how effective those proxies will be going forward.
Kim Jong Un may be a humanitarian nightmare for killing his own people, but the UN should be able to take care of that any day now. [Sarcasm2]
RblDiver
01-14-2020, 12:58
Well, that might explain why the guy was aiming where he was. Apparently Iran shot TWO missiles, and the first missed.
https://twitter.com/AlArabiya/status/1217142201974755335
Heard on the news that the President of Iran is saying those that were responsible for the missiles fired at the airliner were to be arrested and prosecuted.
Bailey Guns
01-14-2020, 13:35
^^ Yeah, right. Some mid level officer, a few junior officers and a few enlisted people are about to lose their heads over this. None of them will be the individuals responsible.
Aloha_Shooter
01-14-2020, 15:01
Heard on the news that the President of Iran is saying those that were responsible for the missiles fired at the airliner were to be arrested and prosecuted.
^^ Yeah, right. Some mid level officer, a few junior officers and a few enlisted people are about to lose their heads over this. None of them will be the individuals responsible.
In this case, I expect the mid-grade flunkies really WERE the ones responsible. This shoot-down is sort of on the level of the Abu Ghraib atrocities. Anyone who thinks Bush or Rumsfeld ordered the guards to do what they did is an idiot. Similarly, there was NO reason for the ayatollahs to order the the shoot down of a plane that carried dozens of Iranian college students and Iranian Canadians. The whole thing smacked of people passing orders without realizing the automatic consequences.
Just remember that Iran isn't the first country to shoot down a civilian aircraft:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
O2
In this case, I expect the mid-grade flunkies really WERE the ones responsible. This shoot-down is sort of on the level of the Abu Ghraib atrocities. Anyone who thinks Bush or Rumsfeld ordered the guards to do what they did is an idiot. Similarly, there was NO reason for the ayatollahs to order the the shoot down of a plane that carried dozens of Iranian college students and Iranian Canadians. The whole thing smacked of people passing orders without realizing the automatic consequences.
This is my take on it as well. The Ayatollah will have no problem sacrificing whomever was operating that missile launcher. Many of the citizenry are not happy, they've been having problems with public demonstrations since November, and he's afraid of losing control.
Just remember that Iran isn't the first country to shoot down a civilian aircraft:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
O2
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/176872-Missile-attacks-target-US-forces-in-Iraq?p=2253147&viewfull=1#post2253147
Well, that might explain why the guy was aiming where he was. Apparently Iran shot TWO missiles, and the first missed.
https://twitter.com/AlArabiya/status/1217142201974755335
The new theory is that they both hit. The first damaged the aircraft and knocked out the transponder. The aircraft was hit a second time and then turned to return to the airport but crashed 20 miles short of it.
Ukraine Airliner Hit By a Second Missile Over Iran, New Video Shows (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-airliner-hit-by-a-second-missile-over-iran-new-video-shows/ar-BBYXNl7)
Surveillance video from Iran circulating on social media Tuesday appears to show two missiles hitting the Ukrainian passenger jet downed over Tehran, fired approximately 30 seconds apart, providing new information about the tragedy that killed 176 people on the plane.
The video was verified by Storyful, a social-media-intelligence company owned by News Corp, parent of Wall Street Journal publisher Dow Jones. It raises new questions about how forthcoming Iranian authorities were when, after three days of denial, they admitted they had mistakenly struck the Ukraine International Airlines flight without mentioning a second missile.
It also possibly answers the question of why the Ukrainian airliner’s transponder stopped working before being hit by the missile that apparently brought the jet down last week.
The blurry video shows what appears to be a missile launched from a site near the airport, and hitting an object in the sky, presumably the plane.
About 30 seconds later, a second missile is fired, which hits the plane, this time a little closer to the airport. The jet stays in the air for several minutes and bursts into flames.
The plane appears to circle back toward Tehran’s Imam Khomeini International Airport before crashing roughly 20 miles from it.
A U.S. official identified the weapon used as a Russian-made SA-15 surface-to-air missile system, also known as the Gauntlet.
While Canada and the U.K. said at the time that one missile was fired, U.S. officials told the Journal that the system fired two missiles.
Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps on Saturday admitted it had mistakenly shot the plane down, something Western governments had claimed, taking full responsibility and promising accountability for the perpetrators and compensation for the victims.
The three-day delay in that admission, which Ukrainian officials have said came only after they found evidence of the use of a missile forced Tehran’s hand, fueled anger and protests in the streets of Tehran and other Iranian cities against perceived incompetence and dishonesty by the Iranian leadership.
The revelation that Iran’s military struck a civilian plane not once but twice will likely add fuel to that anger.
Iranian authorities on Tuesday said they had arrested an undisclosed number of suspects in connection with the shooting, with President Hassan Rouhani urging the country’s judiciary to establish a special court to hold to account those responsible for the crash.
“Anyone who should be punished will be punished,” Mr. Rouhani said in a televised speech Tuesday, his first public remarks since the plane was shot down. “The whole world will be watching our trial.”
As a complete lay person to both commercial aircraft, and military arms, I find it pretty fascinating that after taking two missile strikes, the plane kept flying for some amount of time.
It's parallel to shot placement in our world.
The plane wasn't that high so catastrophic decompression wasn't yet an issue.
spqrzilla
01-16-2020, 16:49
Anti aircraft missiles actually have relatively small warheads with proximity fuzing. They are designed to put out a burst of fragments not unlike a scaled up grenade. Between IR seekers and their susceptible to foreign object damage, engines loss are the most common damage. As an example, the Korean 747 shot down by Soviet Su15 in 1983 lost hydraulic systems and took more than 10 minutes to crash.
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