View Full Version : Computer hardware issue
I know some folks here are computer gurus so I would appreciate some advice. Mr. Hummer is a BSA but knows little about hardware. Her inclination is to get a new computer but I wonder if it's s simpler, cheaper fix?
It's an HP Pavilion P7-1517cb PC, 6 1/2 years old. A fan (it sounds like a fan but maybe it's the disk drive), turns on and off frequently. It may run for a few seconds or a few minutes, then shut off and maybe turn on again only a few seconds later. On and off, on and off. It implies something is overheating but the cabinet isn't warm anywhere except in the back at the top where there is a fan and vent. Not hot, only warm. This fan runs all the time and is silent. I haven't opened the cabinet, and I'm not sure how to get into it.
Is there another larger fan inside that is failing, or a faulty temperature sensor? Is the disk drive dying? Should I buy another disk drive and replace it myself or take it to a shop somewhere? Suggestions?
Thermal paste on the CPU can dry out over time. Might want to check that. However, if it’s truly overheating you will start to see it shut off entirely. Also, if it’s staying on, you could look at the diagnostics tool for heat, etc. could also run diagnostics from the BIOS (assuming that feature is there).
Could also be the graphic card fan kicking on.
Hard to totally say without looking at it.
Open it up and check for dust first. If caked in it, comps will overheat triggering high fan rpms.
Little Dutch
02-12-2020, 15:57
It might be a heat sink clogged up with crap and can't dissipate heat properly causing the fan to click on or into overdrive. It could be the thermal paste connecting the CPU to the Heat Sink. It could be the graphics card. It could be a spinning drive about to go out.
You'll have to open it up to narrow it down.
Open it up and blow it out with some air (compressed or low psi from an oiless). Leave it open and run it and see if your having the same issues. I assume the computer isn't turning off randomly or your would have mentioned it so i doubt its over heating too bad because you would end up killing your hardware, signs of that would be random shut downs or just acting funky in general. You could have a fan going out but in all honesty that old of a computer i would just get something newer if you can afford it or just hit me up and we can see about you building one yourself (very easy to do and I can help if needed).
It could be the optical drive spinning up and shutting down. Did you leave a disc in the drive?
There's no disk in the drive tray, and the computer isn't shutting down randomly. I keep it clean outside but it could be dust because my desk is next to the firewood storage by the fireplace/woodstove.
With better light tomorrow I will open the cabinet to check it out, vacuum, and blow things off as I can.
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I'll let you know what I find, maybe with pictures. I can buy another computer, may do that and keep this one for storage backup. We did a backup to a seagate external drive last week.
Circuits
02-12-2020, 19:06
Sounds like a plan. Might also check if it could be updates or backups? I've got a number of machines which will spin up or down fans and disks as they execute background tasks, like backing up to my network store.
Open it up and check for dust first. If caked in it, comps will overheat triggering high fan rpms.
This. It's amazing the number and size of dust bunnies (Harvey size....) that accumulate.
This. It's amazing the number and size of dust bunnies (Harvey size....) that accumulate.
Yep. Harvey killed my first graphics card.
When you open it up, make sure to unplug it from power and also hold down the power button to discharge any residual juice. Also, if you can, ground yourself if you?re gonna be sticking your hand inside.
CobaltSkink
02-12-2020, 22:33
And, for the love of God, don't use much compressed air.
I grenaded a fan by overspeeding it; itty bitty little plastic fan blades fell out.
HP didn't sell the fan unit- their fix was to sell me a refurb PC for more than I bought the new PC for.
I Mickey-moused a similar fan installation, but it never ran the same again.
For the mini-tower, I poke a chopstick in the stopped fan, then used compressed air.
That still doesn't get off the dust stuck to the blades.
Sometimes I use a small paintbrush or Q-tip on those.
Don't try to vaccum it out. Just get a can of compressed air from a hardware store and use that. Blow jobs >>>>>> suck jobs.
When temps reach a certain point modern fans usually kick into a high-RPM mode. If you had used the computer in the past for really-intensive things (finalizing an edited video and outputing for an hour straight) it would do that. Simple fact is you've never used it heavy enough, it's always been capable of doing that. At this point, it's just from all the dust. Also don't be afraid, it's not going to shock you. Just touch the case to ground yourself before touching any components so you don't shock anything inside with static, but otherwise it's 100% safe.
Last tip: You probably should insert something like a ball-point pen into a fan before blowing it directly out - to block the blades, so you don't temporarily turn a 100rpm fan into a 2000rpm fan.
ETA - last note: They don't get dusty by being near something, because of their nature, they act like giant air filters and often statically attract dust whenever they are on. Even in a super-clean tile-floor, no pets house, they'll still be crazy full of dust in that timeframe.
Rucker61
02-13-2020, 12:17
And don't blow out the dust in the house.
I like to put a vacuum on the opposite side of where I'm blowing. Don't know if that's advisable though.
Rucker61
02-13-2020, 15:05
I like to put a vacuum on the opposite side of where I'm blowing. Don't know if that's advisable though.
It's got me hot.
battlemidget
02-13-2020, 16:33
Getting the computer off the floor goes a long way towards keeping the dirt buildup down.
I've always kept the unit on the desk where I can easily access the CD drive, USB and SD ports.
I opened the side of the cabinet this morning and found the dust wasn't too bad. I used a combination of compressed air and vacuum for the dust, then alcohol to wipe and Q-tip the surfaces I could reach except the circuit board. There are three fans so I carefully cleaned all the blade s with Q-tips. I'm happy with the results.
I booted up but had previously scheduled a Windows memory diagnostic. No problem so far but it will be a few more hours until it completes. I should know tomorrow whether the cleaning had any effect. More then....
Get an external drive and backup your data. Hard drives are cheap and they all eventually fail.
The case fans are cheap and easy to replace. Power supply is not very expensive and easy to replace.
If you like most of the hardware and have no need for anything better, it is usually simple and cheap to keep it running. At 6.5 years old, you could buy a motherboard/CPU/RAM deal off the Internet or MicroCenter as long as the motherboard form factor will fit into your case. Like getting a new engine in an old car, it only works if you like everything else about the old car.
First thing is knowing what your primary uses will be for the computer. I am very cheap and tend to run Linux on old computers until something significant fails, but I always keep backups of all of my data. It isn't "if" but "when" your hard drive/computer will fail.
Get an external drive and backup your data. Hard drives are cheap and they all eventually fail.
The case fans are cheap and easy to replace. Power supply is not very expensive and easy to replace.
If you like most of the hardware and have no need for anything better, it is usually simple and cheap to keep it running. At 6.5 years old, you could buy a motherboard/CPU/RAM deal off the Internet or MicroCenter as long as the motherboard form factor will fit into your case. Like getting a new engine in an old car, it only works if you like everything else about the old car.
First thing is knowing what your primary uses will be for the computer. I am very cheap and tend to run Linux on old computers until something significant fails, but I always keep backups of all of my data. It isn't "if" but "when" your hard drive/computer will fail.
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I'll let you know what I find, maybe with pictures. I can buy another computer, may do that and keep this one for storage backup. We did a backup to a seagate external drive last week.
Well, it seems that the cleaning has taken care of the fan surging.
Initially I had problems with it booting up but not going to the log in screen. Neither the Logitech keyboard nor the mouse worked. I replaced them last year because the last ones acted up too. Today I moved the receiving units to other USB ports and it it all worked properly. Funny though, I plugged another device into the USB ports the receiving units had been in and the USB port worked. I have had problems with the key stroke delays and skips and only rebooting the computer fixes it. Had the same problem with the previous Logitech keyboard. Goofy. Maybe I need to go wired instead of wireless.
Get an external drive and backup your data. Hard drives are cheap and they all eventually fail.
The case fans are cheap and easy to replace. Power supply is not very expensive and easy to replace.
If you like most of the hardware and have no need for anything better, it is usually simple and cheap to keep it running. At 6.5 years old, you could buy a motherboard/CPU/RAM deal off the Internet or MicroCenter as long as the motherboard form factor will fit into your case. Like getting a new engine in an old car, it only works if you like everything else about the old car.
First thing is knowing what your primary uses will be for the computer. I am very cheap and tend to run Linux on old computers until something significant fails, but I always keep backups of all of my data. It isn't "if" but "when" your hard drive/computer will fail.
We use two external drives for backup but it's time to get another one. I can't afford to lose anything. Critical databases, multiple businesses and Quicken financial records over 35 years, plus countless thousands of photos and correspondence. Still, the computer has 1.4 TB free of 1.8 TB total. I'm happy enough with the computer as is so long as it works, pretty much like my '03 Tundra which ticks on trouble free. I have opened and cleaned other computers but never this one. It's actually the first home PC we've had in 30+ years that isn't government owned, which is an incentive to keep it working.
Again, I appreciate all the suggestions. It kept me focused and helped me avoid problems.
Circuits
02-14-2020, 20:24
we're setting ourselves up for this
I love my SSDs - wouldn't want to live without them after making the switch, but they're mostly doomed to failure through write cycle fatigue after five or six years (depending on usage). Always be multiply backing up, always be looking to upgrade or replace your storage.
On the plus side, storage is cheaper and faster and better than ever, now, than it has ever been before.
I have SSDs that are about 5 years old and they have plenty of life left in them. Mechanical drives are cheaper per GB, but SSDs are pretty tough to wear out unless you're doing a ridiculous amount of writes. If you're really concerned about losing data, setup regular backups to an on-prem NAS or to 'the cloud'.
We use two external drives for backup but it's time to get another one. I can't afford to lose anything. Critical databases, multiple businesses and Quicken financial records over 35 years, plus countless thousands of photos and correspondence. Still, the computer has 1.4 TB free of 1.8 TB total. I'm happy enough with the computer as is so long as it works, pretty much like my '03 Tundra which ticks on trouble free. I have opened and cleaned other computers but never this one. It's actually the first home PC we've had in 30+ years that isn't government owned, which is an incentive to keep it working.
Again, I appreciate all the suggestions. It kept me focused and helped me avoid problems.
$99/year for O365 with 6x1TB accounts (there's a way to nest them together for a larger namespace if needed).
You get all the standard O365 desktop apps, O365 apps for the mobile devices. I tried to get by with OpenOffice and just couldn't stand the lack of real Excel formula/vb code support. Having Excel and word on my personal PC is great.
The sync and versioning is great. Easiest one I've found since Sugarsync (which went pay) to put the Onedrive local folder location where *I* want it, etc.
I back up local and everything critical goes to the cloud as well. I can get to it from anywhere and selectively get data/folders on my work PC, etc.
$99/year for O365 with 6x1TB accounts (there's a way to nest them together for a larger namespace if needed).
You get all the standard O365 desktop apps, O365 apps for the mobile devices. I tried to get by with OpenOffice and just couldn't stand the lack of real Excel formula/vb code support. Having Excel and word on my personal PC is great.
The sync and versioning is great. Easiest one I've found since Sugarsync (which went pay) to put the Onedrive local folder location where *I* want it, etc.
I back up local and everything critical goes to the cloud as well. I can get to it from anywhere and selectively get data/folders on my work PC, etc.
I have O365 as well. My Synology NAS also supports synchronization of files to OneDrive. Even if the house burns down, I can still get to the important stuff.
we're setting ourselves up for this
I love my SSDs - wouldn't want to live without them after making the switch, but they're mostly doomed to failure through write cycle fatigue after five or six years (depending on usage). Always be multiply backing up, always be looking to upgrade or replace your storage.
On the plus side, storage is cheaper and faster and better than ever, now, than it has ever been before.
I have SSDs that are about 5 years old and they have plenty of life left in them. Mechanical drives are cheaper per GB, but SSDs are pretty tough to wear out unless you're doing a ridiculous amount of writes. If you're really concerned about losing data, setup regular backups to an on-prem NAS or to 'the cloud'.
Run the utilities to keep an eye on the wear rates - but of course backups are essential.
We're putting read intensive (= cheap) enterprise SSD with 1 DWPD specs in moderately high transactional server environments and for secondary storage behind traditional backup systems (Commvault, Netbackup, IBM's ProtectTier [which is EOL] etc.) and not seeing wear rates that are cause for concern and fall well outside typical replacement cycles. These are not used in mission critical/healthcare/Fortune 100 of course; those get high end (IBM) FlashCore modules anyway (no drive interface to slow things down) with petabytes of <100us latency systems.
That said, nothing is unbreakable. We had a higher end system go sideways due to crap Samsung RI drive firmware and some half-assed DRAID6 code and spent 2 weeks making the server environment whole again. DR site to the rescue.
I have O365 as well. My Synology NAS also supports synchronization of files to OneDrive. Even if the house burns down, I can still get to the important stuff.
NAS sync - that's cool.
Since losing access to free enterprise "cloud" storage through work changes (company acquisitions), I had been chasing free storage for years and constantly moving platforms. With O365 it just works and the $99/year is so worth it.
With the NAS sync, if you have more than a single account data set, are you able to either nest accounts or use multiple accounts? We're nesting accounts now by sharing 2 other logins to the base account.
Just a heads up I have had funky issues with usb's before as well just before the motherboard goes out. Keep doing you backups and check them. If you start to have HW issues or even driver issues I'd suggest getting a new system.
I just have the one home license, so I haven't had to play with multiple accounts. I did check the Synology CloudSync package and you can setup multiple tasks that interface with multiple providers (22 different cloud storage services), so I would imagine you can create multiple tasks utilizing multiple OneDrive accounts. It also supports OneDrive and OneDrive for Business. FYI, I didn't see any support for iCloud.
Circuits
02-15-2020, 01:08
Of the first five SSDs I bought, going on 8 years ago, 2 have died outright, and others started throwing errors so I nipped them in the bud and replaced them.
SMART can give you clues and reviewing their use logs can let you plan. Just sayin'...
Tape is almost forever, magnetic spinners are very durable, SSD is deliriously fast and potentially short-lived. Even with a system optimized to minimize SSD write operations through proper caching, SSD writes are a known finite quantity. For now, at least.
I have SSDs that are about 5 years old and they have plenty of life left in them. Mechanical drives are cheaper per GB, but SSDs are pretty tough to wear out unless you're doing a ridiculous amount of writes. If you're really concerned about losing data, setup regular backups to an on-prem NAS or to 'the cloud'.
$99/year for O365 with 6x1TB accounts (there's a way to nest them together for a larger namespace if needed).
You get all the standard O365 desktop apps, O365 apps for the mobile devices. I tried to get by with OpenOffice and just couldn't stand the lack of real Excel formula/vb code support. Having Excel and word on my personal PC is great.
The sync and versioning is great. Easiest one I've found since Sugarsync (which went pay) to put the Onedrive local folder location where *I* want it, etc.
I back up local and everything critical goes to the cloud as well. I can get to it from anywhere and selectively get data/folders on my work PC, etc.
Run the utilities to keep an eye on the wear rates- but of course backups are essential.
<snip>
How is this done?
I have O365 as well. My Synology NAS also supports synchronization of files to OneDrive. Even if the house burns down, I can still get to the important stuff.
Fire is a real concern as we're at greater risk here. I haven't used or trusted cloud services but I know it's universal now so I will look into everyone's suggestions. My wife puts certain files on OneDrive from her office. At home our web service is too slow for cloud backup--our cell phone hotspots are our only access (we need them for travel). I suppose I should put one SSD backup in the truck and keep it there.
Just a heads up I have had funky issues with usb's before as well just before the motherboard goes out. Keep doing you backups and check them. If you start to have HW issues or even driver issues I'd suggest getting a new system.
Good advice I'm sure, thank you.
About SSD's, what brands/models do you all recommend? Any that you like best, and maybe more important, any that one should avoid?
80126
A look at the inside of the PC prior to cleaning. Not as bad as I've seen in other units. The fins behind the fan on the circuit board held the most dust and I suspect this was the source of the off and on fan surging.
Notice that there's a 2032 button battery on the circuit board. I wouldn't expect it to hold much juice after 6 1/2 years. What would this be for and should I replace it?
80126
A look at the inside of the PC prior to cleaning. Not as bad as I've seen in other units. The fins behind the fan on the circuit board held the most dust and I suspect this was the source of the off and on fan surging.
Notice that there's a 2032 button battery on the circuit board. I wouldn't expect it to hold much juice after 6 1/2 years. What would this be for and should I replace it?
CMOS battery. It powers the BIOS, which is the initial operating system that loads when you turn the computer on (e.g., not Windows, the power-on-self-test stuff). In short, if the battery dies, nothing happens except it doesn't remember what time it is and will give you a notice to that effect. I wouldn't worry about swapping it, it may outlast your desire to use that computer.
Circuits
02-15-2020, 10:43
That's called the CMOS battery, and maintains your BIOS settings and system clock. If it's dead, your computer clock will need to be reset after a cold boot, and if you changed any BIOS settings from default those changes will need to be remade. It used to be much more important back when you had to manually program your hard disk settings and CPU settings and memory timings and card interrupts in order to boot. That's all automatic now, and if it's network connected the OS can set the clock automatically, too, so the CMOS is basically redundant if you just use standard settings.
Thanks! I won't mess with it....
The fan and fins that had the most dust is the CPU cooler. That's pretty normal to get build up there and cleaning that out will help keep it cool without the sensor sending more RPM to the fan to reduce temps. The higher RPM was probably under load. More work = more watts = more heat.
How is this done?
SMART mentioned above is built into every new HDD and SSD. The vendor will typically include a utility specific to their product to accurately report the drive health and stats. Generic utilities can be used but aren't always accurate across all vendor products.
Fire is a real concern as we're at greater risk here. I haven't used or trusted cloud services but I know it's universal now so I will look into everyone's suggestions. My wife puts certain files on OneDrive from her office. At home our web service is too slow for cloud backup--our cell phone hotspots are our only access (we need them for travel). I suppose I should put one SSD backup in the truck and keep it there.
Good advice I'm sure, thank you.
About SSD's, what brands/models do you all recommend? Any that you like best, and maybe more important, any that one should avoid?
Samsung 850/860 or Crucial MX500 (those are model numbers not size) for internal consumer SSD. Samsung, Seagate or WD, whatever you can get a good deal on for external. I prefer spinning for external but there are pros/cons to each. Environment, longevity, durability, etc.
I've had issue with the Crucial copy software so Samsung may be best for a neophyte.
I catch them when they're on sale. Use camelcamelcamel to check and watch price history.
Once Onedrive is sync'd, there's not so much traffic to be concerned with and you don't have to retrieve files from the cloud to use locally, it just keeps things in sync. It also does versioning so if you do get hit with a virus or cryptolocker, your versioned files in Onedrive should be safe and recoverable.
The Samsung drives are really good. I have 2 x 970 EVO NVMe SSDs in my NAS as read/write cache. Intel drives are also good, but tend to be really pricey. In the corporate PC space, I've also used Crucial and Toshiba, but they typically don't perform as well as the Samsungs.
If you're looking to get a new system, look for NVMe SSD over SATA SSD. NVMe is wicked fast and has lower latency due to not requiring a disk controller between the storage and the system bus.
The Samsung drives are really good. I have 2 x 970 EVO NVMe SSDs in my NAS as read/write cache. Intel drives are also good, but tend to be really pricey. In the corporate PC space, I've also used Crucial and Toshiba, but they typically don't perform as well as the Samsungs.
If you're looking to get a new system, look for NVMe SSD over SATA SSD. NVMe is wicked fast and has lower latency due to not requiring a disk controller between the storage and the system bus.
Lots of Enterprise Flash storage system vendors are using Samsung and Toshiba internals for Tier1.5 flash drives in both SAS and NVMe interface flavors depending on the controller/enclosure supported interface. As insinuated in an earlier comment I made, we recently had a catastrophic failure with some Samsung drives in a DRAID6 array going offline. The vendor replaced all of them with Toshiba drives because Samsung couldn't figure out how to fix the problem quickly enough with a firmware update. This was a critsit with all OEM vendors' code guys on the line. Lowest bidder issue I suspect. That alone doesn't deter my preference for them for PC consumer use.
Honestly, if you don't have massive amounts of stuff to backup, a microSD might be the perfect solution. Like a 128GB card (normally used for digital cameras). Bury it in a can in the yard and update it a couple times a year. Let a family member know where it is too. Good for document scans, photos, etc.
Secondary advantage: MicroSD by itself is already fully immune to even the worst of the worst EMP events, because it's so f%$^ing small that sufficient current can induct.
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