Pepper Spray

[Ah Pook]

Did a quick search here but didn't find anything. Looking for a less than lethal deterrent. Gel pepper spray seems like a good option, as I don't want to effect any bystanders.

I work in an "essential" retail environment. We do engage shoplifters and the number of attempts is rising drastically. Can someone give me a quick run down, or point me in a direction, on when the use of pepper spray is lawful? I'm looking for inside the building and outside.

Thought?

TIA

[kidicarus13]

1. Check your company policy as far as using pepper spray. If you do not have a policy, request one so that the company does not hang you out to dry when if/you get sued.

2. https://foxlabs.com/

[FoxtArt]

TLDR:
#1: The use of non-lethal is subject to the same standards as would physical force; e.g. if you would get arrested/cited for punching someone, you'll also get arrested/cited for any non-lethal use of force (pepper spray, taser, etc.)
#2: Colorado permits the use of the minimum level of reasonable force necessary to sustain a citizens arrest if you have witnessed the commission of a crime. That can include physical force, but again, it has to be the minimum level of reasonable force necessary. While unlike some/many/most states, Colorado doesn't explicitly limit that to a felony, I'd still only apply citizens arrest to likely felonies as a personal rule. Note this is the same law which security/retail/etc. detains people. Note that (potentially) lethal force is not permitted to maintain an detainment in any circumstance, you could only use lethal force while detaining if they are actively trying to kill you. This is not the law by which LEO uses to arrest people, security/retail/etc. cannot make use of LEO laws.

Kid's suggestion is also quite wise.

Disclaimer: Of course nothing you read on a public forum is legal advice.

Also for the love of all that's holy, don't deploy pepper spray inside your building. Face even a light a breeze and spray a little bit to get an idea why.

[Great-Kazoo]

Did a quick search here but didn't find anything. Looking for a less than lethal deterrent. Gel pepper spray seems like a good option, as I don't want to effect any bystanders.

I work in an "essential" retail environment. We do engage shoplifters and the number of attempts is rising drastically. Can someone give me a quick run down, or point me in a direction, on when the use of pepper spray is lawful? I'm looking for inside the building and outside.

Thought?

TIA

what ever you choose DO NOT buy a spray. Look for the ones that stream. with even a light breeze that spray will go every where, including back at you. Where those stream ones can go out 20ish feet in a solid stream.

[whitewalrus]

Most employers will likely not allow this...so you should check with your employer before you go down the path of getting some.

I am with GK, if you do get them, get the streams that are designed to shoot further, you don't want this stuff blowing back at you or at someone standing around trying to video the incident with their cell phone.

[ray1970]

If you were my employee I would discourage you from engaging in any kind of physical confrontation with a shoplifter. That?s what insurance is for.

[SAnd]

While you are researching stuff check on how hard it is to get that stuff off of whatever merchandise or equipment it contacts. I heard Deans or Old West Arms or whatever it was was kinda put out of business because the building got contaminated with tear gas that couldn't be removed.

That 'less than lethal' can be more than lethal to someone that isn't young and healthy. If they have asthma or allergies it can be lethal. Same goes with just a whiff of that stuff could really affect someone that has or is recovering from the flu or pneumonia.

While you're at it think of remotely activated door locks. Something like a button under the counter or on your belt that if you see something suspicious you can lock the door without actually going to the door. I don't know if that would be a problem with fire codes though.

I wish you well in your search.

[VDW]

Not legal advice - but I would suggest you only use something like pepper spray only in defense of yourself from physical harm, not to keep someone from escaping. I would highly recommend not using it at all, and as others have suggested not inside - especially with the coronavirus possibly damaging another patron's lungs already. Also, FoxtArt is correct, Colorado law only authorizes a citizen's arrest if you personally witness the suspect committing a misdemeanor or felony. Call LE, and let them handle it if they try to escape. That would be my non-legal advice.

Also, if you do decide to carry pepper spray on the job, I would strongly suggest you be exposed to it in a training session - and keep documentation of that training.

[SpamOnRye]

+1 on Foxlabs
+1 on stream.
None of this is legal advice, however if I were to make a purchase those would be two of my criteria.

[Squeeze]

Pepper spray sucks. Every damn time I was on a call where another officer deployed it, we all got a taste of it. I hated that stuff. Most of us didn't even carry it. In the world of "Asset Protection / Loss Prevention" or whatever it's called these days, I would stay away from pepper spray in day-to-day use. I remember once when we got into a physical altercation with a suspect and my partner had an open-top pepper spray carrier and the top ended up getting damaged in the scuffle causing the pepper spray to expel. We were all coughing, hacking and still trying to get the moron into custody. Not fun. If I were in your shoes, especially in today's society, I would stay clear of going "hands on" with a shoplifting suspect. It just isn't worth it. That merchandise isn't your personal property and you don't make enough money to get injured or God forbid, sued. If they fail to cooperate after initial contact, just let them go.

[Zundfolge]

If you're going to carry the pepper spray against company policy so that you have something to protect yourself from an armed shoplifter, just carry a gun. Either one will get you fired if you get caught with it so might as well go with the more effective tool.

The only less-than-lethal tool that would be useful for forcing compliance (not just personal defense) would be a Taser ... which is also likely against company policy and I understand fraught with as many legal implications as a pistol if used.

Back in the early 80s my mom's cousin was working security for a David's store in Wichita (kind of like a TG&Y or Kmart) and was shot to death by a shoplifter he confronted in the parking lot. He was unarmed and was shot when he yelled at the guy to stop so neither a gun nor pepper spray would have helped, but had he been able to deploy it a gun would have worked a lot better I imagine.

[Irving]

That is terrible advise Zund.


Once I had a bottle of pepper spray in the car. It was laying on the shifter and when I started the car and moved the shifter into drive, it depressed the trigger and the transmission locked into drive, keeping the trigger down. It was like 2:30 in the morning and my wife and I were like, "what is that noise?" and proceeded to look down in between the seats, right into the ongoing blast. That was fun.

[Great-Kazoo]

That is terrible advise Zund.


Once I had a bottle of pepper spray in the car. It was laying on the shifter and when I started the car and moved the shifter into drive, it depressed the trigger and the transmission locked into drive, keeping the trigger down. It was like 2:30 in the morning and my wife and I were like, "what is that noise?" and proceeded to look down in between the seats, right into the ongoing blast. That was fun.


Why? if one is going to defend them self, why not use the most effective tool.
Regarding work, i say let the business eat the loss. We all have read stories how employee X used deadly force, or just displayed a weapon to stop X at work. The company remains in business, while said employee has been terminated.


That pesky Company Policy, as stated in the Company Handbook

[Irving]

For some reason, people just assume that killing people is no big deal and it's easy to live with afterward.

[Irving]

Looking for a less than lethal deterrent.


If you're going to carry the pepper spray against company policy so that you have something to protect yourself from an armed shoplifter, just carry a gun.

-Hey guys, I'm curious about ways to not kill people.

-Oh, just kill people.

Completely missed the point.

[longrange2]

Here is a great article on pepper spray.

https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/pepper-spray-how-to-choose-it-and-how-to-use-it

[Squeeze]

Why? if one is going to defend them self, why not use the most effective tool.
Regarding work, i say let the business eat the loss. We all have read stories how employee X used deadly force, or just displayed a weapon to stop X at work. The company remains in business, while said employee has been terminated.


That pesky Company Policy, as stated in the Company Handbook

Why? Because there is such a thing as "force continuum". Some guy decides to fist fight you over stealing something, doesn't necessarily equate to "deadly force".

[Great-Kazoo]

Why? Because there is such a thing as "force continuum". Some guy decides to fist fight you over stealing something, doesn't necessarily equate to "deadly force".

A fist fight has never gone smooth, for either party. Throw in not everyone is of the same strength, physical capabilities etc. What may work for a healthy in shape person, may not work for one in a wheelchair.

SO while a fist fight may end quickly for scenario #1. scenario #2 has a different outcome.

Include the mindset of..... I was in fear for my life. Then let the attorneys handle it.

There is no cookie cutter, one size fits all way to handle any situation, where physical force is being used upon you.

You see it in a thread where there was a shooting, being discussed. . Everyone's an armchair QB.

[Zundfolge]

-Hey guys, I'm curious about ways to not kill people.

-Oh, just kill people.

Completely missed the point.

If the point is to protect his own life should his job put him in the position where he's facing an armed attacker, killing or not killing the bad guy is irrelevant. Stopping him is. A gun is much much more likely to stop an armed assailant than pepper spray (whether you kill them or not).

If the point is to use a weapon (gun or "less-than-lethal" option) to detain a shoplifting suspect ... well he should stop thinking about that at all unless he intends to become a sworn Law Enforcement officer first and not a humble "Loss Prevention Specialist".

He seemed to be asking about less-than-lethal options because he figured company policy and/or the law would go easier on him in the event he needed to defend his life, not for pacifistic reasons ... so I'd submit that the point missing isn't being done by me here.


Why? Because there is such a thing as "force continuum". Some guy decides to fist fight you over stealing something, doesn't necessarily equate to "deadly force".
More people die every year from fists than from rifles. Punch someone in the head and you might very well have crossed the "deadly force" threshold.

[Irving]

Where did he say anything about company policy?

[BlasterBob]

I?d consider it deadly force (as the victim) in a ?fist fight? due to my age and physical condition so I make it a priority not to piss anyone off. . I have been house bound for exactly six weeks so have not been threatened recently to have the crap kicked out of me. Perhaps I had better just remain house bound. [blaster] [ROFL1]

[StagLefty]

I?d consider it deadly force (as the victim) in a ?fist fight? due to my age and physical condition so I make it a priority not to piss anyone off. . I have been house bound for exactly six weeks so have not been threatened recently to have the crap kicked out of me. Perhaps I had better just remain house bound. [blaster] [ROFL1]

I'm with you Bob !!! The only ones who want to kick my ass are the robocalls that I screw with [ROFL2]

[CS1983]

I?d consider it deadly force (as the victim) in a ?fist fight? due to my age and physical condition so I make it a priority not to piss anyone off. . I have been house bound for exactly six weeks so have not been threatened recently to have the crap kicked out of me. Perhaps I had better just remain house bound. [blaster] [ROFL1]

Given the high potential for a single, well-placed punch to cause death or serious injury, or being knocked to the ground and sustaining a fatal head injury, or the potential for an attacker to go into rage mode and black out and commit actions which they have no true awareness over, I personally consider any use of force as threatening my life. Hence, I do my best to completely avoid such situations.

[Ah Pook]

Thanks for the replies, guys. The owners are not the problem. Most times they are the ones going after the thieves. People are getting desperate and erratic.

[FoxtArt]

Just remember.... you're getting paid $12.95 an hour (or whatever the rate) to do a job description (x), you're not getting paid $12.95 an hour to go above the call and duty and potentially die, for a net benefit of a couple CD-players don't successfully leave the store (or whatever the product).

Crazy people are unpredictable. I've got to get paid a whole LOT more before I'm going to accept that kind of risk, or in the alternate, actually have a societal benefit beyond "profit margin 0.025% higher this quarter".

Stopping bad people is also a bad life motivation (if that is a personal goal) - esp once you realize your government will just catch and releases them with no ramification. Helping good people is much better.

[TFOGGER]

Super soaker filled with red fox urine?