Idle NFA question....

[Martinjmpr]

I didn't want to post this in the NFA section because I'm not asking a specific question about a specific NFA item, but rather a more general question about how NFA works WRT machine guns and destructive devices.

As I posted earlier, Wife and I went to Dragon Man's this weekend. On the way home she asked a question - how is it legal for him to own all that stuff? I told her that the NFA does allow private individuals to own fully automatic weapons provided they are NFA registered and tax is paid.

However, I also seem to recall that the registry "closed" for private owners with regard to machine guns in 1986, so the only "legal" machine guns in private hands are those that were registered prior to the 86 date.

I'm also aware that DEALERS with the appropriate licenses are allowed to own post-86 machine guns as "dealer samples" with the idea that these dealers are selling to the military, law enforcement, or entities outside the US, and that the machine guns they possess are not necessarily for their (i.e. the dealer's) USE, but rather are "samples" or "demonstrators" that are intended to facilitate that dealers' sales to some entity that CAN legally possess them (which, again, would only be: The military, a bona fide law enforcement agency, or some user outside the US.)

Do I have that right?

If I do, then here are my questions: If someone is licensed as a "dealer" of Class 3 weapons, do they have to show that they do, in fact, DEAL with some government or law enforcement agency? Do they have to, for example, sell X number of items every year to qualify as a "dealer?" Or is simply maintaining their "dealer" license sufficient? And I presume if they have a "dealer" license that allows them to sell to government agencies, that license also allows them to sell to other Class 3 dealers as well?

Again, this is all just idle curiosity. I have neither the time nor (more importantly) the money to pursue any class 3 hobbies. I haven't fired a fully automatic weapon since Uncle Sam was buying my ammo and if I never do again, I'm OK with that.

[Circuits]

No - they just have to have the appropriate FFL and pay the yearly SOT tax for their status (Class 1 importer, Class 2 manufacturer, Class 3 dealer).

Class 3 actually describes the designation of a dealer in NFA firearms, or "Title 2" firearms. It doesn't actually describe a "class" of firearms. "Class 3 dealer" is about like "licensed dealer" - it doesn't mean that the dealer sells "licenses"

Yes, a lot of stuff gets sold between NFA dealers, but you have to have a "demonstration letter" or a purchase order from an authorized entity in order to transfer post-1986 machineguns. The exception arises when a licensed importer or manufacturer goes out of business, they can sell their post-1986 samples off to other NFA importers or manufacturers without requiring the demo letter or purchase order.

Manufacturers also do not require permission to manufacture post-1986 machineguns, and importers do not need permission to import.

[Great-Kazoo]

One needs a letterhead to make post 86 dealer samples/ demos, or they use to . You'd be surprised how easy it is to get a letterhead. As for bernsteins collection. His dad was very well off and he, as well as other members of the family did well, as a result. Keep in mind Mel has been building his collection for decades and may have took advantage prior to the 86 crap, purchased a lot for low dollars. Throw in those who decide to sell their small or large collection to him. Then have bragging rights to say. See that 1/2 track mel has. I sold that to him.


I passed on a few powder springs Mac-10's at that time, mainly due to the fact dropping $850, yes $850, was something i did not have cash flow for. My old employer had his lic and usually offered me and other employees deals on select fire units. Again not something at the time was doable.
Who knew said items are now in the $20K + range. Oh well another short sighted investment, i missed out on.

[BladesNBarrels]

There were approximately 186,000 machine guns registered and taxed before 1986.
Those can be transferred with the payment of an additional tax on a Form 4 between individuals or corporations, and trusts.
The transfer between individuals has to have the signature of the Chief Law Enforcement Official for your location in Colorado.
If you transfer to a corporation or a trust, then you are required to notify the Chief Law Enforcement Official of the transfer, and does not include obtaining their signature.
They are not approving with their signature, which is misunderstood by many of the Sheriffs and Police Chiefs. Many think they are approving the transfer, and are reluctant to sign.
The Form 4 has to be approved by ATFE and the tax paid before you can physically take possession.
The approval is a time consuming process and involves a background check by the FBI of the individual, principal of the trust, or responsible officer of the corporation.
In Colorado, it is easiest to have a dealer facilitate the transfer and do another background check when they receive the approved Form 4.
Several dealers in Colorado are set up to help you - give them a call and ask what is involved and how much they charge.
I am not a lawyer giving any professional advice and I do not play one on TV.
Check with your local dealer.

[Martinjmpr]

There were approximately 186,000 machine guns registered and taxed before 1986.
Those can be transferred with the payment of an additional tax on a Form 4 between individuals or corporations, and trusts.
The transfer between individuals has to have the signature of the Chief Law Enforcement Official for your location in Colorado.
If you transfer to a corporation or a trust, then you are required to notify the Chief Law Enforcement Official of the transfer, and does not include obtaining their signature.
They are not approving with their signature, which is misunderstood by many of the Sheriffs and Police Chiefs. Many think they are approving the transfer, and are reluctant to sign.
The Form 4 has to be approved by ATFE and the tax paid before you can physically take possession.
The approval is a time consuming process and involves a background check by the FBI of the individual, principal of the trust, or responsible officer of the corporation.
In Colorado, it is easiest to have a dealer facilitate the transfer and do another background check when they receive the approved Form 4.
Several dealers in Colorado are set up to help you - give them a call and ask what is involved and how much they charge.
I am not a lawyer giving any professional advice and I do not play one on TV.
Check with your local dealer.

Right, I get all that but I was more curious about all the post-1986 machine guns I see around. Wondering how that all works.

And FWIW I'm not really interested in owning any NFA items. As I said above, I had plenty of opportunity to fire machine guns and automatic weapons when I was in the Army.

My favorite time was when we were running a range up in Guernsey, WY (this was when I was with the COARNG.) I was one of the safety NCOs on the range that day.

Those of you that have worked on military ranges know that returning "live" ammo back to the ASP (Ammunition Supply Point) is a real PITA once you have opened a case because once the seal is broken, you literally have to account for every round (and a case of 5.56 is 1,680 rounds!)

So we opened a case and put most of the company through the range. We had one unopened case and as it was getting late in the day, we were really hoping we could get everyone qualified without having to break open the last case. Well, turns out a few people were having trouble, so we ran out of ammo and had to break open the case for the last 3 or 4 people to qualify.

So, once those people qualified, we now had probably 1200+ rounds that we did NOT want to account for. Unlike conventional units that had M16A2 rifles (which only have semi-auto and 3-shot burst), we had M4A1 carbines that could shoot full auto.

We still had an hour or so before the range closed, so the range NCOIC told us to start loading up 30 round magazines to practice "close quarters" full-auto shooting. There were probably 6 or 7 of us on range detail and we fired those 1200 rounds in about 30 - 40 minutes. The barrel of my M4 was smoking by the time we were done.

This was in 1999 before digital cameras were really a thing but one of the guys had a camera and took this photo of me. You can see at least 3 empty cases flying out of my ejection port:

83150

As much fun as it was, it's not worth the cost, time or hassle to me today.

[Mazin]

Moved to NFA becaise this does contain good Info that people new to the game might not know.

[Circuits]

One needs a letterhead to make post 86 dealer samples/ demos, or they use to .

Never necessary to make or import - only to acquire as a C3 SOT (dealer-only).

[brutal]

Right, I get all that but I was more curious about all the post-1986 machine guns I see around. Wondering how that all works.

And FWIW I'm not really interested in owning any NFA items. As I said above, I had plenty of opportunity to fire machine guns and automatic weapons when I was in the Army.

My favorite time was when we were running a range up in Guernsey, WY (this was when I was with the COARNG.) I was one of the safety NCOs on the range that day.

Those of you that have worked on military ranges know that returning "live" ammo back to the ASP (Ammunition Supply Point) is a real PITA once you have opened a case because once the seal is broken, you literally have to account for every round (and a case of 5.56 is 1,680 rounds!)

So we opened a case and put most of the company through the range. We had one unopened case and as it was getting late in the day, we were really hoping we could get everyone qualified without having to break open the last case. Well, turns out a few people were having trouble, so we ran out of ammo and had to break open the case for the last 3 or 4 people to qualify.

So, once those people qualified, we now had probably 1200+ rounds that we did NOT want to account for. Unlike conventional units that had M16A2 rifles (which only have semi-auto and 3-shot burst), we had M4A1 carbines that could shoot full auto.

We still had an hour or so before the range closed, so the range NCOIC told us to start loading up 30 round magazines to practice "close quarters" full-auto shooting. There were probably 6 or 7 of us on range detail and we fired those 1200 rounds in about 30 - 40 minutes. The barrel of my M4 was smoking by the time we were done.

This was in 1999 before digital cameras were really a thing but one of the guys had a camera and took this photo of me. You can see at least 3 empty cases flying out of my ejection port:

As much fun as it was, it's not worth the cost, time or hassle to me today.

Common practice when I was AD and had to pull range NCO duty. Fun part was shooting it all up and making the qualifiers police all the brass.

[CS1983]

We did that several times when tasked to run ranges for other companies. One time was a night range, so we got to get REALLY comfortable with our Peq-2's and all the absurd positions we could hold the m4 in, and still get hits out to 300 meters.

[Oscar77]

There were approximately 186,000 machine guns registered and taxed before 1986.
Those can be transferred with the payment of an additional tax on a Form 4 between individuals or corporations, and trusts.
The transfer between individuals has to have the signature of the Chief Law Enforcement Official for your location in Colorado.
If you transfer to a corporation or a trust, then you are required to notify the Chief Law Enforcement Official of the transfer, and does not include obtaining their signature.
They are not approving with their signature, which is misunderstood by many of the Sheriffs and Police Chiefs. Many think they are approving the transfer, and are reluctant to sign.
The Form 4 has to be approved by ATFE and the tax paid before you can physically take possession.
The approval is a time consuming process and involves a background check by the FBI of the individual, principal of the trust, or responsible officer of the corporation.
In Colorado, it is easiest to have a dealer facilitate the transfer and do another background check when they receive the approved Form 4.
Several dealers in Colorado are set up to help you - give them a call and ask what is involved and how much they charge.
I am not a lawyer giving any professional advice and I do not play one on TV.
Check with your local dealer.

Not any more, it is a "notification" copy sent to the CLEO, they don't sign anymore even for individuals.........