View Full Version : Bill Of Sale
I just sold a gun to someone from co-ar15.com. Should I have got a bill of sale? I didn't think anything of it at the time but my wife asked me if I needed one. So I ask you
Great-Kazoo
12-01-2009, 20:23
no, and no again do a search on this much discussed(to death) topic.
iamhunter
12-01-2009, 20:28
Like the above poster, no, no, no.
People are so unnecessarily paranoid.
Remember. Government for the people, by the people.
They're not your masters and not your babysitters.
Thankfully colorado law reflects this.
68Charger
12-01-2009, 21:26
Legally you don't need one-
as long as you don't believe he was a resident of another state, a felon, planned to use the firearm in a crime (or domestic violence crime), under the influence of alcohol, a habitual drug user, or otherwise forbidden from owning a firearm under federal law... then you can sell to him on a handshake..
figuratively speaking- but it's only polite to shake hands on it.. [Beer]
if you're concerned about something happening later- you have an identity from this website that can be used to trace them if they commit a crime with it... so I wouldn't lose sleep over it.
GoldFinger
12-01-2009, 21:35
I've seen alot of people ask for a CCW, or at least a DL. I supose it shows some diligence on your part to verify if the person is at least on the "grid", local, and maybe should own a weapon.
I've bought a few guns privately, and only showed a DL. The first weapon I bought was kind of like your situation, it just seemed that more should be done - receipt wise - to purchase a fire arm. But as you will no doubt hear from others on this site, it's not necessary.
I just sold a gun to someone from co-ar15.com. Should I have got a bill of sale? I didn't think anything of it at the time but my wife asked me if I needed one. So I ask you
so, you're saying that you've just sold the gun without knowing how legaly sell the guns in this state? LOL
Great-Kazoo
12-01-2009, 22:11
it just seemed that more should be done - receipt wise - to purchase a fire arm
and that mentality is why we now have BG checks at gun shows, pushes for "reasonable" gun laws etc. Major Fail
pickenup
12-01-2009, 22:37
it just seemed that more should be done - receipt wise - to purchase a fire arm
and that mentality is why we now have BG checks at gun shows, pushes for "reasonable" gun laws etc. Major Fail
+1000
GreenScoutII
12-01-2009, 23:18
Speaking for myself and only for myself:
If I want to buy a gun from any of you and you ask to see ID and ask me to sign a bill of sale, cool. I have no problem with it.
If I were to sell a gun to any of you:
A handshake is all I would need. Well, a handshake and CASH of course..[LOL]
There is also a world of difference between a reasonable bill of sale (serial number, price, date) and an unreasonable bill of sale (address, hours when you're not at home, safe combination, dog's favorite treat, etc).
As a more frequent buyer than seller, I freely volunteer that I am a resident of CO and not a prohibited person or any other sort of "bad guy". Wearing a belt and speaking coherently are always good ideas ;)
As much as I bitch about BoS, I'd sign one if it was an unheard of deal.
GoldFinger
12-02-2009, 08:04
it just seemed that more should be done - receipt wise - to purchase a fire arm
and that mentality is why we now have BG checks at gun shows, pushes for "reasonable" gun laws etc. Major Fail
It's not how I feel now that I understanding gun laws and my 2nd ammendment rights better, but I would think this would be a common feeling without having experience in it.
I'd agree in that being naive and uninformed is probably what leads most people to feel we need BG checks and concessions on gun laws. I'm not saying it right, just saying it is.
theGinsue
12-02-2009, 23:56
As Sturtle said, if it was an "unheard of deal", I'd do a BoS, but wouldn't be fond of it as it edges similarity to the paperwork required for a regular FFL transfer. Avoiding paperwork is one of the advantages of Face-to-Face sales.
While I don't mind showing it, one requirement I will walk away from is providing a copy of my drivers license to the seller.
As Sturtle said, if it was an "unheard of deal", I'd do a BoS, but wouldn't be fond of it as it edges similarity to the paperwork required for a regular FFL transfer. Avoiding paperwork is one of the advantages of Face-to-Face sales.
While I don't mind showing it, one requirement I will walk away from is providing a copy of my drivers license to the seller.
Correct. Plus the seller should have to provide the exact same info as the buyer if the deal is going to go to that stupid of a level.
Well, I would not sign a bill of sale.
I do this as a hobby and for fun. It takes all the fun out of it when paperwork is involved. If sellers want BOS, DL or anything like that, I am not interested in dealing with them.
If it was someone I didn't know or had never dealt with, I would not have a problen signing a BOS, and as mentioned I would appreciate the same in return. If it makes someone feel a little more comfortable about the transaction, then no problem. I don't have anything to hide, so I would be happy to do it.
JM2C
iamhunter
12-03-2009, 10:36
I have nothing to hide either, but why encourage the trend of paperwork for guns? Its unconstitutional in the first place, and it's bad enough we have to deal with it in commercial sales.
Why would you want to transfer that to the private sector?
You have no legal obligation to document your weapon sales.
All thats required is that you use your good judgement and, to the best of you discernment, don't sell to felons, or the mentally unstable.
When I go to a store and they ask for my address or phone number, I always ask them why they need it. I really need to just create a fake one of each that I memorize and use for everything.
iamhunter
12-03-2009, 11:09
When I go to a store and they ask for my address or phone number, I always ask them why they need it. I really need to just create a fake one of each that I memorize and use for everything.
Or you can just say no. You're trading money for goods. Your personal information is not part of the deal, and once they try to get it, the exchange becomes unequitable.
I tell them they can either compensate me for the additional value of my personal information.
Or they can stop asking.
I remember when I worked at Radio Shack we had to ask people that stuff, and it always made me uncomfortable doing so. Then during Christmas the president released some special announcement that we no longer had to ask people for that because it was by far the most common complaint that customers had about Radio Shack.
iamhunter
12-03-2009, 12:26
yup. It's annoying and not a good way to win loyal customers.
No BOS for me. I hate the pack I have to fill out a background check every time I go to buy a new gun. I would think by now they would know if I am okay or not.
I ran into this while looking for laws about buying hand guns today. At first I thought it applied to private sales, but soon realized it is under the "Dealers" category.
Go here and scroll down to dealers: http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm
Then you find these links:
http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpext.dll/cocode/2/18cfa/18d61/1b999/1b9b2?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm&2.0#JD_12-26-103
and
http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpext.dll/cocode/2/18cfa/18d61/1b999/1b9ad?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm&2.0#JD_12-26-102
They basically require dealers to keep records of who they sell guns to, and they MUST allow law enforcement to view records at anytime. So I know that the state constitution says that no law enforcement agency may keep a list, but what does it matter if all dealers are required to keep such records and give them to law enforcement at request? A law enforcement record would just be redundant.
I think a bill of sale is great for both partys. The seller, if ever contacted by the police after the previously sold gun was used in a crime can effortlessly send the law in the right direction.
Vice versa for the buyer purchasing a gun previously used in a crime.
Without the bill, you may end up having to prove yourself via court, or multiple interrogations and hope you can provide resonable doubt.
I think a bill of sale is great for both partys. The seller, if ever contacted by the police after the previously sold gun was used in a crime can effortlessly send the law in the right direction.
Vice versa for the buyer purchasing a gun previously used in a crime.
Without the bill, you may end up having to prove yourself via court, or multiple interrogations and hope you can provide reasonable doubt.
they would have to prove motive, let alone disapprove your alibi.
Plus, if you are selling on here there are internet records. you can easily keep a microsoft word list of the guns you bought and sold throughout the years. all you need is the date and the guys phone number. if you have a BOS, that means you have a paper document you have to keep track of. what happens if it is 20 years down the road, 3 moves later and all of a sudden you lost it?
in the end, it is not required by law, it is not constitutional, and if people are doing it already it would be easy for the brady campaign to say it needs to become law. then if you do happen to lose that document, you might go to jail over it. fight for the freedoms you enjoy and exercise them regularly.
newracer
12-03-2009, 21:30
How is asking for a BOS unconstitutional?
iamhunter
12-03-2009, 22:26
How is asking for a BOS unconstitutional?
asking for one isn't. You can ask whoever your selling the gun to for their car keys, address, naked pictures, of their wife, and whatever else you want. I'd imagine you'd get nothing from them, except probably a good right hook to your face.
Asking for a Bill of Sale is not unconstitutional (just stupid, and unecessary). However requiring one by law, is.
You wouldn't have to worry about a stolen or sold gun being traced back to you if the fed didn't require a personal novel about yourself every time you bought one.
Ever thought about that?
I think a bill of sale is great for both partys. The seller, if ever contacted by the police after the previously sold gun was used in a crime can effortlessly send the law in the right direction.
Vice versa for the buyer purchasing a gun previously used in a crime.
Without the bill, you may end up having to prove yourself via court, or multiple interrogations and hope you can provide resonable doubt.
Oh yes, because if you told the police or a jury that you sold the gun without paperwork they wouldn't believe you, but if you showed them a piece of paper with 'Bill of Sale' written at the top, they would accept it without any question at all. Do you actually know anything about how our legal system works?
You people who live in constant fear of the government knocking on your door need to grow a spine. There is no legal requirement for a bill of sale. Learn how to exercise your legal rights, rather than begging the government on your knees not to bother you because you are a willing informant who will gladly offer any information it wants.
iamhunter
12-03-2009, 22:36
Oh yes, because if you told the police or a jury that you sold the gun without paperwork they wouldn't believe you, but if you showed them a piece of paper with 'Bill of Sale' written at the top, they would accept it without any question at all. Do you actually know anything about how our legal system works?
You people who live in constant fear of the government knocking on your door need to grow a spine. There is no legal requirement for a bill of sale. Learn how to exercise your legal rights, rather than begging the government on your knees not to bother you because you are a willing informant who will gladly offer any information it wants.
Amen brother, Amen.
whitewalrus
12-04-2009, 06:12
Bill of sale makes some people feel a bit better. Really the BOS could be faked, so does it really matter?
When I do transactions, normally offer to show my CWP, so they know I am legit, and its their call on a BOS.
EOW, I think you hit the nail on the head.
I said this prviewsly, and I will say it again.
Buyer/Seller already got the name+city+phone number+ email address on an forum PM and/or email for multiple communications prior to sale.
Oh yeah.... buyer/seller also tells you about their vehicle description too.
Sure, Bill of Sale maybe needed for some transction as a buyer and/or seller.
litewavve
12-29-2009, 08:19
So in a private transaction, one can legally sell a gun to anyone else without checking any ID ? That sounds good if you believe that all unqualified buyers are honest and will not own a gun illegally. The problem with this premise is that most unqualified gun buyers are disqualified because they can not be trusted.
I think that it is reasonable for my own conscience as well as protection against potential civil liabilities to ask to see DL and record the DL number of the buyer.
Jumpstart
12-29-2009, 08:34
I think that it is reasonable for my own conscience as well as protection against potential civil liabilities to ask to see DL and record the DL number of the buyer.
I think it is reasonable for my own conscience as well as privacy against potential digressions against me and my family to NOT show DL or have it recorded by the seller. If you want to sell it, do so. If you feel funny, walk away without a sale. Don't compromise me with your own version of BATF, or culivate a communal paperwork mentality on a simple private property transaction as "the norm". I resist. It's un-American.[Rant1]
Happy New Year
iamhunter
12-29-2009, 08:39
So in a private transaction, one can legally sell a gun to anyone else without checking any ID ? That sounds good if you believe that all unqualified buyers are honest and will not own a gun illegally. The problem with this premise is that most unqualified gun buyers are disqualified because they can not be trusted.
I think that it is reasonable for my own conscience as well as protection against potential civil liabilities to ask to see DL and record the DL number of the buyer.
That is YOUR conscience. If I have enough powers of discernment to decide for myself whether or not someone is being honest, then thankfully, the law leaves that decision to me.
If someone really is questioning the legality of selling me a gun, I'm not opposed to showing them my license, but that's where it ends.
You're transfering your property to me in exchange for money. Once my personal information starts coming into play as a bargaining chip, the transaction becomes inequitable, and I become disinterested.
And recording my DL number? That's completely ridiculous. Like I said, that's your perogative, but I for one would never do business with you.
That is YOUR conscience. If I have enough powers of discernment to decide for myself whether or not someone is being honest, then thankfully, the law leaves that decision to me.
If someone really is questioning the legality of selling me a gun, I'm not opposed to showing them my license, but that's where it ends.
You're transfering your property to me in exchange for money. Once my personal information starts coming into play as a bargaining chip, the transaction becomes inequitable, and I become disinterested.
And recording my DL number? That's completely ridiculous. Like I said, that's your perogative, but I for one would never do business with you.
+1
Danceswithwires
12-29-2009, 09:52
So in a private transaction, one can legally sell a gun to anyone else without checking any ID ? That sounds good if you believe that all unqualified buyers are honest and will not own a gun illegally. The problem with this premise is that most unqualified gun buyers are disqualified because they can not be trusted.
I think that it is reasonable for my own conscience as well as protection against potential civil liabilities to ask to see DL and record the DL number of the buyer.
I would never give out my DL # to any private party for any reason. I would not be happy about showing my DL but may (depending on my take on you) with my thumb or finger covering the # in order to show proof of residence. In these days of identity theft people must protect as much of their info as possible. My .02
That is YOUR conscience. If I have enough powers of discernment to decide for myself whether or not someone is being honest, then thankfully, the law leaves that decision to me.
If someone really is questioning the legality of selling me a gun, I'm not opposed to showing them my license, but that's where it ends.
You're transfering your property to me in exchange for money. Once my personal information starts coming into play as a bargaining chip, the transaction becomes inequitable, and I become disinterested.
And recording my DL number? That's completely ridiculous. Like I said, that's your perogative, but I for one would never do business with you.
+1000!
I don't mind having to show my driver's license, just as I don't mind having to show it at every store I use plastic with. Writing info down is ridiculous though. What is the logic involved in that? The LESS you know about someone, the LESS likely you are to get into trouble if they do something bad with the new gun that THEY own. Are you picking up what I'm laying down here?
So, I have a question... say you're in a state that requires you to register handguns, serial number, the whole deal. Then you move to a different state and sell the gun where no regulations are needed. That gun ends up being used in a crime, is discarded, and the police pick it up, identify it as belonging to registered owner through FBI/ATF/NCIS, etc, and come knocking on your door. Does that sort of thing happen? If so, do you just say "I sold it"? Isn't it prudent to have something signed at least by the buyer? (Before the flame wars start, I agree the needing of SSN/DL# etc is a little excessive).
And followup... the state requires you to register but nothing else? No need to call them and tell them you sold it, etc... weird. Who makes the laws in the country?! lol (read with sarcasm)
When they show up at your door, you tell them you sold it. Just because you owned something, doesn't make you guilty of the crime. People tend to forget that they still need to put you at the crime scene, slap you with a motive, etc, etc.
True, unfortunately now-a-days it seems like you're "guilty until proven innocent". HA.
True, unfortunately now-a-days it seems like you're "guilty until proven innocent". HA.
So sad and so true. It seems these days if the govt wants you to be guilty, then you'll be found guilty. Of course if you're blessed with a ton of cash in your wallet, then you'll prob get off even if you are guilty.
As for the whole BoS thing, I agree it's bull and shouldn't even be thought of. Would you require a BoS if you were selling someone a knife or a bow? No. The private sale of firearms should be no different. We need to shrug off this mentality the govt and media are trying to ingrain in our collective brains that firearms are bad and need to be regulated/banned. The moment they get our guns, liberty dies. History as shown us this time and time again.
BPTactical
12-29-2009, 16:58
When I have conducted private sales in the past I have ALWAYS written a bill of sale.
One line I have included is this:
"Is there ANY reason that you are not lawfully able to purchase/own a firearm?"
I have the purchaser initial and or sign next to it.
This shows that you, the seller has taken reasonable means to ensure that you are not selling a firearm to a "Prohibited Person".
It will absolve you of culpability if in fact the purchaser is unable to lawfully own a firearm.
I also include the date and time of the transaction.
A bill of sale just makes good sense. It gives you a bit of CYA if the purchaser decides to make poor choices with the firearm YOU sold them.
[Beer]
Just to play devil's advocate: Do you really think a little hand-written note is going to absolve you of culpability? What if the person lied, had a fake id, etc? The fact you didn't take the time validate this info probably opens you up to other levels of liability hell. Remember, 'reasonable means' is in the eye of the jury selected to judge you.
If you are truly serious about CYA then the only real option is to only sell your firearms on consignment through a FFL holder who will do a background check on the buyer before allowing the transfer. But then that doesn't really make it a private sale anymore and lets the govt intrude even further in our lives.
CO law doesn't require a BoS between private individuals. That should be enough.
PogoManiac7
12-29-2009, 17:28
That little hand written note is also a legally binding contract when signed by both parties. It may not be required but it does give you CYA.
Jumpstart
12-29-2009, 18:04
"CO law doesn't require a BoS between private individuals. That should be enough."
I agree. It is enough. Let's keep that the norm, as IT SHOULD BE!
Some of you here are harshing on my 2nd Amendment buzz. Cut your shit.
theGinsue
12-29-2009, 21:11
That is YOUR conscience. If I have enough powers of discernment to decide for myself whether or not someone is being honest, then thankfully, the law leaves that decision to me.
If someone really is questioning the legality of selling me a gun, I'm not opposed to showing them my license, but that's where it ends.
You're transfering your property to me in exchange for money. Once my personal information starts coming into play as a bargaining chip, the transaction becomes inequitable, and I become disinterested.
And recording my DL number? That's completely ridiculous. Like I said, that's your perogative, but I for one would never do business with you.
Agreed.
We need to shrug off this mentality the govt and media are trying to ingrain in our collective brains that firearms are bad and need to be regulated/banned. The moment they get our guns, liberty dies. History as shown us this time and time again.
Absolutely.
When I have conducted private sales in the past I have ALWAYS written a bill of sale.
One line I have included is this:
"Is there ANY reason that you are not lawfully able to purchase/own a firearm?"
I have the purchaser initial and or sign next to it.
This shows that you, the seller has taken reasonable means to ensure that you are not selling a firearm to a "Prohibited Person".
It will absolve you of culpability if in fact the purchaser is unable to lawfully own a firearm.
I also include the date and time of the transaction.
A bill of sale just makes good sense. It gives you a bit of CYA if the purchaser decides to make poor choices with the firearm YOU sold them.
That little hand written note is also a legally binding contract when signed by both parties. It may not be required but it does give you CYA.
If it gives you a warm fuzzy, go with it, but realize that there are plenty of folks (such as ME) that you'd be cutting out as prospective buyers.
If you are truly serious about CYA then the only real option is to only sell your firearms on consignment through a FFL holder who will do a background check on the buyer before allowing the transfer. But then that doesn't really make it a private sale anymore and lets the govt intrude even further in our lives.
CO law doesn't require a BoS between private individuals. That should be enough.
BINGO! Agree with everything you said.
This exact debate crops up on this site about every six to nine months. I don't recall ever seeing anyone participate in this conversation that wasn't polarized to one side or the other. All I ask is that while we may not agree with the opinions of others, we at least remember to show them respect.
Folks, as a seller you are certainly entitled to set the rules of engagement for the transfer of a firearm or any other item you wish to part with. If you want the buyer to stand on their head while whistling Dixie, that's your choice. Realize that any requirement you set beyond what the law requires will quickly eliminate potential buyers.
Let's just say that you get a BoS from a buyer, then 5, 10, or 15 years down the road that buyer or any subsequent owner (including someone possessing the gun by theft) uses the firearm in a crime. Now, assuming the police are able to trace this back to YOU, you tell them "yeah, I sold it and I have a BoS to prove it". What do you think your chances are that you'll be able to find that BoS? What do you suppose the LEO's will think when you can't produce the BoS that you swore you had?
Personally, I won't sell a firearm to someone that I don't have some prior association with. Sorry in advance to any newbies on this site as I wouldn't even consider you as a potential buyer unless you were either (a) active on this site for at least a couple of months, or (b) you'd been a member here for a couple of years, or, lastly (c) you are an Industry Partner on this site. THIS is the best protection I can imagine for myself.
Again, if requiring a BoS, copy of a buyers DL, pic of buyer, fingerprints, blood, first-born child, etc., gives you a warm fuzzy, go with it. The one thing you MUST abide by is identifying any and all requirements up front when you initially put the item up for sale/trade. If I were to show up to purchase a firearm from you and you sprung any of these requirements on me without warning I'd turn and walk away without another word, come back to my PC and bash the hell out of you over and over again on this site for your dishonesty, and I'd guarantee that I'd dislike and distrust you for life.
litewavve
12-29-2009, 22:05
Can we agree that it is illegal even for private sellers to sell handguns to anybody who is under 21 years of age or not a legal resident of Colorado?
So how can you be certain that the transaction is legal without checking a pictured ID? I am not trying to make this a debate of the constitutional right. Rather, I am trying to find a balance between buyer's privacy and seller's legal cover.
I do recall that the two persons who sold the pistol to Klebold and Harris were convicted in the criminal case.
Would you say you're afraid to live in fear?
Can we agree that it is illegal even for private sellers to sell handguns to anybody who is under 21 years of age or not a legal resident of Colorado?
No we can't, because the legal age is 18, not 21.
GreenScoutII
12-29-2009, 22:07
Would you say you're afraid to live in fear?
You never fail to crack me up Stu...
theGinsue
12-29-2009, 22:30
No we can't, because the legal age is 18, not 21.
?? Someone help me with this. I understood that you could own and possess a handgun at 18yo, but I thought you had to be 21 to purchase a handgun.
Have I misunderstood the law?
ETA (Edit to Add): Harris was 18 (by 12 days), Klebold was 17 and could not legally buy ANY firearms.
You only need to be 21 to purchase from a licensed FFL is the way I understood it.
That's the law, but I've yet to come across someone who will sell to an 18 year-old who they don't know very well.
pickenup
12-29-2009, 22:47
When I am looking to buy something in the "Firearms For Sale" forum, before I pursue the deal, I look to see if a DL or a BoS is required. If so, no matter how interested I am, no matter how good the deal is, I will pass.
Am I trying to hide something.....no.
Would I pass a BG check.....yes. (and have)
Can we agree that it is illegal even for private sellers to sell handguns to anybody who is under 21 years of age or not a legal resident of Colorado?
It's 18 to possess any rifle/pistol. The 21 year thing applies to FFL holders. They cannot sell a pistol to anyone under 21. Ain't it nice how the govt plays regulatory games to deny you your rights?
I do recall that the two persons who sold the pistol to Klebold and Harris were convicted in the criminal case.
The convictions were for knowingly transferring a handgun to a minor. The keyword is knowingly. And I'm pretty sure he was forced to plead guilty to this charge as part of the overall plea deal. I think his real crime was possession of an illegal sawed off shotgun. And don't forget a lot of political pressure was involved in this to blame someone (other than the actual murders and their negligent parents). This poor bastard was going to be guilty of something no matter what.
pickenup
12-29-2009, 22:57
A person 18 years old CAN posses a handgun.
He can not buy it from an FFL. (federal law)
He CAN buy it from a private party.
(if he can find someone who will sell it to him)
There are circumstances where a person UNDER 18 can be in possession of a firearm. (hunting, competition, private property, etc.) But, in the interest of brevity, I will not quote that law now.
Colorado law.......
18-12-108.5. Possession of handguns by juveniles - prohibited - exceptions - penalty.
(1) (a) Except as provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person who has not attained the age of eighteen years knowingly to have any handgun in such person's possession.
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