Inconsistencies in ammo pricing from various sources

[.455_Hunter]

THIS IS NOT A GENERAL AMMO COMPLAINT THREAD!

Right now, ammoseek is showing 9mm at a minimum of approximately $0.60 per round for brass case. SGAmmo is listing brass case for about $0.70 cheapest rate. Many LGS are well stocked at $0.80 per round. One would think that this is the nominal going rate for ammo.

HOWEVER, when one is fortunate enough to catch some FMJ 9mm brass case on the shelf of a big box (like Sportmans or Cabelas) or even Midwayusa, the price can range from $0.24 to $0.36 per round.

What is the story?

It is not surprising to expect a price increase due to COVID and manufacturing bottlenecks, but what is that REAL number?

Have wholesale prices jumped 25-50% or have they jumped 200%?

How can the big boxes sell newly produced and received ammo at only a mild mark-up if the true price is much higher? Pre-existing delivery contracts with locked-in cost and quantity from manufacturers?

If the true wholesale price is only inflated 25 - 50%, where is the extra profit being taken? Distributors? I don't think its the LGS- they are paying through the nose too.

Just saying its "supply and demand" does not explain the above. It almost seems there are two different pricing realities co-existing right now.

[Grant H.]

It may also have to do with contract purchasing. Big retailers may have their price locked in via contract so they don't have to raise prices to cover the cost of the next box. (I spent a HS summer working big box store BS and got to be friends with a GM that shared a lot of interesting info).

It also has to do with the fact that some LGS/Online is pretty well proven to be willing to screw folks to make the extra buck whenever possible.

[beast556]

Grant hit the nail on the head.

This seems to happen every 5 years with guns and ammo for one reason or another. You need to stack ammo deep when times are good to weather these bad times. One other way to ride these shortages out it to learn to reload, I just started reloading a little over a year ago and it has been great. In the last year I have paied for my reloading set up five fold with my reloads and have no worries of how much ammo we are buring up every weekend at the range.

[.455_Hunter]

If it is contract deliveries, then I guess we could expect all ammo sources to jump to the nominal market level once those have been fulfilled, whatever that level might be at the time.

[MrPrena]

Support small business saturday regardless of 9mm cost 1.99/rnd or 2.99/round for 223!

^this hypothetical statement is a boarder line commie talk. Some will even say ammo surcharge is perfectly ok or restaurants nickel and diming customer without disclosure is perfectly fine.

you go ahead and spend $200 per box, and surcharge $5 on your small shop meals.

People will stick to ones that doesn't, and will reward competitive prices.


Eta: grant was right on the money with his comment.


https://arkvalleyvoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Small-Business-Saturday-Photo-Courtesy-of-abc57.jpg

[Aloha_Shooter]

If prices are consistent everywhere, you can bet someone is fixing the prices somewhere in the supply chain.

[Great-Kazoo]

If prices are consistent everywhere, you can bet someone is fixing the prices somewhere in the supply chain.

Just like gasoline pricing ?

[.455_Hunter]

If prices are consistent everywhere, you can bet someone is fixing the prices somewhere in the supply chain.

Double Tap

[.455_Hunter]

If prices are consistent everywhere, you can bet someone is fixing the prices somewhere in the supply chain.

In a normal world, let say a 50 round box of quality Winchester 9mm NATO ball averages $15, ranging from $9.99 at an online discounter, $13.99 at Sportman's, $15.99 at the LGS, and $19.99 at the indoor range. That would be a pretty reasonable price distribution.

The distribution right now is huge.

[Mtneer]

MarksmanTV on YouTube gives excellent insight into the gun business as an LGS. On his most recent "Weekly Used Gun Review," he mentioned his wholesaler doubled the price of 9mm.

[Martinjmpr]

If prices are consistent everywhere, you can bet someone is fixing the prices somewhere in the supply chain.


Just like gasoline pricing ?

Yes, that's why if we all make a pact to not buy ammo on Tuesday the prices will go down. ;)

[MrPrena]

About 6mo ago, I was saying we should import more ammo to stabilized price, but some said "no way made in usa!!!"

Hell. I love made in usa too, but sure ain't gonna pay 300% increase due to supply shortage for ammo.
US ammo manufacturers just became Duopoly after acquisitions.

[flamingo]

[20X11]

Those who didn't stock up when prices were cheap will pay the price now. Those of us that have been around for the past couple of cycles of this BS don't have to worry...we have plenty.
What????...You thought prices would be cheap forever and didn't buy enough to carry you through retirement AND Now you're whining...SHAME ON YOU!!!!

PS...what is a gun without ammo? A poorly designed CLUB.

[.455_Hunter]

Some people are missing the point of this discussion about wholesale and retail price discrepancies.

[20X11]

Wholesale vs Retail doesn't matter if everyone who bought a gun spent 2-3 times the price of the gun for ammo it would shoot. Buy a $1000 gun...spend $50 on 2 boxes of ammo...WTF are people thinking?

[beast556]

Some people are missing the point of this discussion about wholesale and retail price discrepancies.

Were not missing the point, what were saying is this happens pretty routinely. People and businesses are greedy and capitalize anytime they can. Sucks but that's the way it is especially with guns.

[MrPrena]

Some people are missing the point of this discussion about wholesale and retail price discrepancies.

Whole sale - assuming price is materials and labor is constant for now, my projection is that it will only go up in teen % due to recent M&A.

Retail- there will be 2 price as grant stated.
I believe big box store will be more elastic to the small price increase from whole sale, but they will be out of stock in short run due to high demand in ammo.

Small shops... we all know that it will be triple digit increase.

[hollohas]

Big box stores do buy much of their stock based on contracts. Sometimes those contract prices are good for a certain qty. Sometimes for a certain timeframe. Sometimes both. It stabilizes their retail price to the consumer. That's the same reason their prices don't go down much in times of decreasing prices. (Unless they work out a temporary "sale" with their vendors or decide they need to move dead inventory and reduce their margin).

Not long ago SGAmmo could beat midway, cabela's or walmart any day of the week. That's because they weren't locked into a contract price. It benefited them not to have a contract when wholesale prices were low. Their prices fluctuate.

Now wholesale prices have gone up. So retailers without contracts are subject to those increases while big box stores still get their good 'ol regular price they worked out previously. When wholesale prices go up, big box stores benefit from having the contract prices. Their prices are stable.

Many LGS don't even buy wholesale. They buy retail and mark it up. Or even slightly discounted retail from places like Primary Arms that will setup reseller accounts. Even if they buy wholesale from distributors they don't get nearly the same pricing as larger volume retailers like SGAmmo. And then there are some that will increase their retail price to make sure they profit enough to be able to buy at even higher prices next time. And others simply use the opportunity to make a higher margin. I'm sure every LGS has a different strategy.

Same thing is true of other industries as well. For example, romex wire at places like Home Depot is pretty stable. It fluctuates very little because they have huge, long term contracts. Local electrical suppliers are much more susceptible to market fluctuations in copper prices. They may use contracts, but they are smaller and shorter. Either way, when copper prices go down, they can beat the big box stores. When they go up, they can't come close.

Edit to add: at some point contract pricing runs out and needs to be renegotiated. If the contract is long enough it may outlast the high wholesale pricing and can be renegotiated at a similar price point as before. If it expires during the high demand, even big box stores may see their price go up that much. Timing is everything with contracts. (PS - the copper example effects the ammo manufacturers as well. They have contracts on copper that help stabilize their material costs for the period of the copper contract. )

[Aloha_Shooter]

Just like gasoline pricing ?

I see rather large variances (over 20%) in gasoline pricing when I use GasBuddy. Prices can be pretty consistent within a chain like Kum-and-Go but there are large variances within other chains like Chevron much less between chains or sources.

[.455_Hunter]

Were not missing the point, what were saying is this happens pretty routinely. People and businesses are greedy and capitalize anytime they can. Sucks but that's the way it is especially with guns.

And that is not the point of the discussion.

[.455_Hunter]

Big box stores do buy much of their stock based on contracts. Sometimes those contract prices are good for a certain qty. Sometimes for a certain timeframe. Sometimes both. It stabilizes their retail price to the consumer. That's the same reason their prices don't go down much in times of decreasing prices. (Unless they work out a temporary "sale" with their vendors or decide they need to move dead inventory and reduce their margin).

Not long ago SGAmmo could beat midway, cabela's or walmart any day of the week. That's because they weren't locked into a contract price. It benefited them not to have a contract when wholesale prices were low. Their prices fluctuate.

Now wholesale prices have gone up. So retailers without contracts are subject to those increases while big box stores still get their good 'ol regular price they worked out previously. When wholesale prices go up, big box stores benefit from having the contract prices. Their prices are stable.

Many LGS don't even buy wholesale. They buy retail and mark it up. Or even slightly discounted retail from places like Primary Arms that will setup reseller accounts. Even if they buy wholesale from distributors they don't get nearly the same pricing as larger volume retailers like SGAmmo. And then there are some that will increase their retail price to make sure they profit enough to be able to buy at even higher prices next time. And others simply use the opportunity to make a higher margin. I'm sure every LGS has a different strategy.

Same thing is true of other industries as well. For example, romex wire at places like Home Depot is pretty stable. It fluctuates very little because they have huge, long term contracts. Local electrical suppliers are much more susceptible to market fluctuations in copper prices. They may use contracts, but they are smaller and shorter. Either way, when copper prices go down, they can beat the big box stores. When they go up, they can't come close.

Edit to add: at some point contract pricing runs out and needs to be renegotiated. If the contract is long enough it may outlast the high wholesale pricing and can be renegotiated at a similar price point as before. If it expires during the high demand, even big box stores may see their price go up that much. Timing is everything with contracts. (PS - the copper example effects the ammo manufacturers as well. They have contracts on copper that help stabilize their material costs for the period of the copper contract. )

Thanks! Good information that contributes greatly to the thread.

[.455_Hunter]

Whole sale - assuming price is materials and labor is constant for now, my projection is that it will only go up in teen % due to recent M&A.

Retail- there will be 2 price as grant stated.
I believe big box store will be more elastic to the small price increase from whole sale, but they will be out of stock in short run due to high demand in ammo.

Small shops... we all know that it will be triple digit increase.

Thanks!

[.455_Hunter]

It sounds like pre-existing delivery contracts are what is keeping prices respectable at a few "big box" locations- either brick and mortar (Sportsmans) or virtual (Midway). Probably only allowed a certain % increase or decrease from the negotiated price.

[MrPrena]

Big corporate box stores might have a short term price contract, but I do not think it is more than a year. I might be wrong.
In terms of contracts like corporate derivatives , ammo probably wont qualify. However, they probably might do some kinda promissory type of future contracts?

Whoever leveraged their inventory with lots of ammo probably made huge $$$$$$$$ even at current market price (not crazy gouging price).

for reference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance)

[.455_Hunter]

I think it was Southwest Airlines who locked like 2-3 years worth of fuel just before the 2008 / 2009 price explosion. They were flying cheap while everybody else had to pay through the nose.

[Circuits]

Small stores and spot markets reflect the price they think they can charge for an item, which someone will still pay. It's also true that when they're out, and their distributors are out (due to increased demand), they can't get anymore, which only drives market prices up further due to scarcity.

Big box retailers have uniform pricing policies, based on a fixed markup over their cost. The big boxes are still getting their allocation at the old price, so they charge the old price. The amount they are charging is less than the market will bear, so some people stock up and others neckbeard it to resell - this is what a free market does, prices generally rise to reflect increased demand over fixed supply, and when they don't, the lower-priced places quickly sell out.

[MrPrena]

I think it was Southwest Airlines who locked like 2-3 years worth of fuel just before the 2008 / 2009 price explosion. They were flying cheap while everybody else had to pay through the nose.

Yup. I think that was a derivatives they contracted.
Delta went even beyond and bought themselves a refineries in PA.

Not a lucrative now but I am sure it was when oil was near 80-100 barrel.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-delta-idUSBRE83T17P20120501?feedType=RSS

[MAP]

Edit to add: at some point contract pricing runs out and needs to be renegotiated. If the contract is long enough it may outlast the high wholesale pricing and can be renegotiated at a similar price point as before. If it expires during the high demand, even big box stores may see their price go up that much. Timing is everything with contracts. (PS - the copper example effects the ammo manufacturers as well. They have contracts on copper that help stabilize their material costs for the period of the copper contract. )

I work in the industry on the retail side. All of the fixed price contracts for 2020 were altered by the ammo manufactures to increase pricing. Nothing close to 100% increases. Deliveries on orders placed in January pre Covid have about a 20% delivery rate. Orders placed during Covid are looking at 12 months for delivery. Some manufactured will not take any 2021 orders.

There is definitely some in the industry, at all levels, taking advantage of the situation while others are holding the same margins. I was in Sheels twice this week. They had Winchester 5.56 for .50 per round and Federal 9mm at $15.99 per 50. Certainly not 2019 pricing and considering the dumpster fire of 2020 not too bad.

Some retailers are paying $19.99, or more, for a box of 9mm. That cost increase gets passed along to the consumer.

[izzy]

I think in some cases the price may be based off what the retailer will pay to replace the stock and not based on what they paid for it. I'm pretty sure this is how a gas station works.

[roberth]

I work in the industry on the retail side. All of the fixed price contracts for 2020 were altered by the ammo manufactures to increase pricing. Nothing close to 100% increases. Deliveries on orders placed in January pre Covid have about a 20% delivery rate. Orders placed during Covid are looking at 12 months for delivery. Some manufactured will not take any 2021 orders.

There is definitely some in the industry, at all levels, taking advantage of the situation while others are holding the same margins. I was in Sheels twice this week. They had Winchester 5.56 for .50 per round and Federal 9mm at $15.99 per 50. Certainly not 2019 pricing and considering the dumpster fire of 2020 not too bad.

Some retailers are paying $19.99, or more, for a box of 9mm. That cost increase gets passed along to the consumer.

Good info, thanks.


I think in some cases the price may be based off what the retailer will pay to replace the stock and not based on what they paid for it. I'm pretty sure this is how a gas station works.

Yes, replacement value.

[colorider]

Based on what was said earlier, replacement value would be unobtonium. Manufacturers are not even taking 2021 orders. So the replacement costs may one Beeeeeeeeeeelion dollars. LOL.

[MrPrena]

Based on what was said earlier, replacement value would be unobtonium. Manufacturers are not even taking 2021 orders. So the replacement costs may one Beeeeeeeeeeelion dollars. LOL.

LOL. those Duopolies would be having a field day. They probably raised price in terms of wholesale/manuf price, and not many will complaint about it.


In non-international economics, we will be panicking. As I stated about 6mo back, we should have starting importing MORE ammo to avoid this.

[Martinjmpr]

Isn't this a self-correcting problem though?

I mean, as long as people are paying outrageous prices I don't see why the stores should stop charging it. Ammo is a "want" not a "need" so if you don't like the price you don't have to buy. If that curtails your recreational shooting, then so be it.

Gun ranges that lost business due to COVID closures who then thought they might make up some lost revenue by jacking up ammo prices haven't realized that they're cutting their own throats (although maybe "shooting themselves in the foot" would be a better metaphor.)

So, serious question: How many of y'all are actually BUYING ammo vs. just looking at the exorbitant prices, shaking your head and moving on? Seems to me that SOMEBODY is paying crazy prices, otherwise you'd expect to see the store shelves stocked with overpriced ammo gathering dust.

[MrPrena]

Isn't this a self-correcting problem though?

I mean, as long as people are paying outrageous prices I don't see why the stores should stop charging it. Ammo is a "want" not a "need" so if you don't like the price you don't have to buy. If that curtails your recreational shooting, then so be it.

Gun ranges that lost business due to COVID closures who then thought they might make up some lost revenue by jacking up ammo prices haven't realized that they're cutting their own throats (although maybe "shooting themselves in the foot" would be a better metaphor.)

So, serious question: How many of y'all are actually BUYING ammo vs. just looking at the exorbitant prices, shaking your head and moving on? Seems to me that SOMEBODY is paying crazy prices, otherwise you'd expect to see the store shelves stocked with overpriced ammo gathering dust.

Oh yeah. People here most likely deal with this issue at least once.
I am sure most are stocked, but probably not enough to get into range as often or compete as often.

Price will probably drop temporarly from hoarders unloading it on the market. Then it will increase a little and stabilize.

Almost same equation as fundamental physics swinging door with certaain % of critical dampage.

Only difference is that I think when it stabilize later , I believe we will see 15% ish or more price increase from 2019 prices. (Material, 2 manufacturers, crazy inflations)

https://instruct.math.lsa.umich.edu/lecturedemos/ma216/docs/images/3_3soln_graph_sc.png

Similar to graph above.
(Funny I am comparing a phys equn for a market)
https://instruct.math.lsa.umich.edu/lecturedemos/ma216/docs/3_3/

[Martinjmpr]

I am sure most are stocked, but probably not enough to get into range as often or compete as often.


Right, which is what makes me wonder if the high price of ammo is causing "downstream" effects of people shooting less which in turn means they may be less likely to buy more guns, holsters, accessories, etc.

Or even more significantly, some shooters may decide that shooting is too expensive a hobby and find some other way to occupy their time.

I think one of the things that prolongs these kinds of price surges is the fact that everyone's "must buy" price is different.

So let's say, for example, that some desirable caliber of ammo gathers dust on the shelf at $0.30/round. For all we know, there may be a bunch of shooters who, when it drops to $0.22/round, will say "OMG I HAVE TO STOCK UP!" and buy up existing stocks which creates demand and prices jump back up to $0.30. Repeat again and again each time prices drop just a little and you can see why these cycles can last so long.

For me at least, as far as .22lr goes, my "Must buy" price is usually around $0.07/round ($3.50/box of 50 or $35.00 for a brick of 500.) Even though I'm old enough to remember the days (they weren't that long ago) when .22lr was "penny a pop" (I have one or two bricks I bought in North Carolina in the 90's that have $5.50 price tags.)


Price will probably drop temporarily from hoarders unloading it on the market.

But if the "hoarders" overpaid they'll be unlikely to want to sell it for less than what they paid. I would guess that unless they are dead broke and desperate, they would prefer to hang onto the ammo they have in the assumption that if they wait long enough it will go up in price. This, in turn, keeps it off the market which keeps prices high.

[Martinjmpr]

So the more I think about this the more the question occurs to me: I see a lot of ammo being advertised for various high prices, but I wonder how much is actually selling?

Like right now I'm on GB and I'm seeing, for example, 9mm FMJ going for ~$40 for a box of 50

Now I'll admit to being a cheap ass, but there's no way in hell I'd pay that much for FMJ.

(I tend to compare ammo prices "by the box" just because I can generally remember what I paid "per box" for various ammo and it's easier doing a "price per box" than a cents-per-round comparison in my head.)

And I'm seeing steel-cased, non-reloadable Wolf and Tula ammo going for more than $25/box. This is ammo that a few years ago was available on the shelf at Wally World for around $8 - $9. And 9mm "range ammo" (brass case, reloadable FMJ or LRN) was generally $11 - $15/box just a few years ago as well. It was rare to see 9mm for more than $20/box, usually for that price you were getting some nice HP ammo.

So I'll ask the group: Are you all actually BUYING at these prices? Or are most of you just biding your time and waiting for prices to come back down?

I'm not but maybe I'm the outlier? :confused:

[00tec]

Tula .223 was $4.97 or $5.97 at most Walmarts for a long time (before they stopped selling it.

I have a bunch of 45acp ball that I could unload, but I don't want to be that asshole that charged too much, nor do I want to lowball myself. Cheapest price on ammoseek is $.64 for Tula. I have brass and aluminum

[.455_Hunter]

I have not bought anything at more than mild price jump ($2-3).

[FoxtArt]

To answer the question of "who is buying it"..

It doesn't really move at the high prices. But it's available if you really, really need it. If people were buying it at normal rates it wouldn't be stocked. The high prices drive tremendously lower sales which then buffers supply, in time.

[MrPrena]

So the more I think about this the more the question occurs to me: I see a lot of ammo being advertised for various high prices, but I wonder how much is actually selling?

Like right now I'm on GB and I'm seeing, for example, 9mm FMJ going for ~$40 for a box of 50

Now I'll admit to being a cheap ass, but there's no way in hell I'd pay that much for FMJ.

(I tend to compare ammo prices "by the box" just because I can generally remember what I paid "per box" for various ammo and it's easier doing a "price per box" than a cents-per-round comparison in my head.)

And I'm seeing steel-cased, non-reloadable Wolf and Tula ammo going for more than $25/box. This is ammo that a few years ago was available on the shelf at Wally World for around $8 - $9. And 9mm "range ammo" (brass case, reloadable FMJ or LRN) was generally $11 - $15/box just a few years ago as well. It was rare to see 9mm for more than $20/box, usually for that price you were getting some nice HP ammo.

So I'll ask the group: Are you all actually BUYING at these prices? Or are most of you just biding your time and waiting for prices to come back down?

I'm not but maybe I'm the outlier? :confused:


All we can do is speculate and guess most of variables by comparing to the past market data.
Only difference is that there seem to be much more new buyers than 2008. I've seen many new buyer surge that time, but 2020 is probably significantly more new buyer.
That being said I think the drop in price might not be as heavy as 2008, 2012.

As for me, I ve sold more stuff this year than a purchase.
Oh. Although I am kinda thin on ammo, there is no way I would buy at this price. I will just wait. :)

Last shooting session, I've shot many 243win and other not as popular self defense rounds which still have many available on store shelves.

[Martinjmpr]

but 2020 is probably significantly more new buyer.

Ah, that's a good point. New buyers may be more willing to pay higher prices just because they don't know that $25 for a box of cheap, steel-cased Tula is an egregious rip-off. To them it may just be the cost of ammo. Also, if they are buying guns because they're panicking about Covid or riots or zombies or whatever, they likely don't worry about price because they're probably only buying a couple of boxes anyway.


Oh. Although I am kinda thin on ammo, there is no way I would buy at this price. I will just wait. :)

Last shooting session, I've shot many 243win and other not as popular self defense rounds which still have many available on store shelves.

During the post-Sandy Hook ammo panic of 2013, I noticed that while the "common" calibers (.223, 9mm, .45ACP, .308) were scarce and expensive, the less common calibers were readily available. Even 7.62x39 was reasonably available and not terribly expensive.

[Grant H.]

Price gouging is hitting more than just ammo too...

I've seen several used 1050's and 1100's sell for $3-5K on ebay recently. Apparently the delay in shipping from Dillon is driving people to spend whatever it takes to "get it now"...

[roberth]

It isn't "gouging" when both parties agree on a price.

You people need to stop thinking like "command economy communists" and start thinking like free market capitalists.

[Grant H.]

[facepalm]

If Dillon raised their prices due to increased demand, then a commensurate increase in resale value is expected.

A 2-3x increase in resale, with no external drivers beyond greed, is gouging.

Nowhere, in any of my comments, have I mentioned, implied, or hinted at a command economy. I certainly don't believe that would be a good thing. That being said, we don't live in a free capitalist market...

[roberth]

If Dillon raised their prices due to increased demand, then a commensurate increase in resale value is expected.

True. Also, if Dillon raised their prices because their operating costs went up, that is another excellent reason.


A 2-3x increase in resale, with no external drivers beyond greed, is gouging.

Wrong. Market scarcity is one driver, among others. How do you know his price is propelled by greed? Do you know him, his situation? Who are you to say he is greedy?

Besides, if another party, that after looking at the market and other considerations, pays his price, what business is that of yours. The transaction is complete, both parties are satisfied.

Oh but you're unhappy with the price, well cry me a river.


Nowhere, in any of my comments, have I mentioned, implied, or hinted at a command economy. I certainly don't believe that would be a good thing. That being said, we don't live in a free capitalist market...

You, as a third party, are trying to set the price of someone else's private property. You're doing what the gov't does when the gov't sets the minimum wage.

That is straight out of Marx.

[Grant H.]

Where did I try to set their price?

For that matter, where did I say I was unhappy with the price that others paid?

Since I really don't care if you respond or not at this point, I will tell you that I did neither of those things.

The end result is you have taken umbrage at the word "gouging" and apparently equate that to Maxism/Communism and somehow decided that minimum wage is a good comparison...

Per Merriam-Webster, Price Gouging is simply defined as charging a customer too much money. $3-5K is too much for used Dillon 1050/1100, when they can be had brand new for $2k. This is my personal opinion. If someone else is good with paying that $3-5K, then I guess more power to them. "A fool and his money are soon parted"...

Your personal opinion is that gouging is only used by communists who don't the like the price... As this is America, you are welcome to your opinion.

[Martinjmpr]

I wouldn't use the term "gouging" for two reasons:

First of all it's a subjective term: One man's "gouging" is another man's "hey it's a free market, if you don't like the price don't pay it."

Second, as I previously stated, guns and ammo are not a "necessity." So nobody is being "forced" to overpay for firearms or ammo.

If one person control the only water well in town and charges everybody an exorbitant price just because he CAN, that's a better example of "gouging" Same thing for people who stock up on building supplies when a hurricane is headed their way with the express intention of re-selling those supplies at extortionate prices after the hurricane goes through. Because in that case you are talking about "necessities" that people are going to buy regardless of price.

[Grant H.]

I wouldn't use the term "gouging" for two reasons:

First of all it's a subjective term: One man's "gouging" is another man's "hey it's a free market, if you don't like the price don't pay it."

Second, as I previously stated, guns and ammo are not a "necessity." So nobody is being "forced" to overpay for firearms or ammo.

If one person control the only water well in town and charges everybody an exorbitant price just because he CAN, that's a better example of "gouging" Same thing for people who stock up on building supplies when a hurricane is headed their way with the express intention of re-selling those supplies at extortionate prices after the hurricane goes through. Because in that case you are talking about "necessities" that people are going to buy regardless of price.

True. "Necessity" vs "want" does play into this conversation quite a bit.

However, the real root of the problem is that we are arguing personal connotations of the word "gouging".

And this is the internet...

[MrPrena]

price gouging
[ prahys-gou-jing ]SHOW IPA

noun
an act or instance of charging customers too high a price for goods or services, especially when demand is high and supplies are limited:
The law prohibits price gouging during weather emergencies such as snowstorms.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/price-gouging


my 2centavos

I am perfectly fine with people (incl myself) using the word gouging. Literary definition fits. (not too sure about economic term, just like using a word insane/crazy in psychology)
Usually ,the term gouging is used for price inelastic good and services such as insulin, gas price, oil, phone and internet services. Very reason government regulates natural monopoly. Or, anyone can charge $4,000 for insulin, or $600.mo on internet services.

Very reason people rarely say diamond/jewelry stores are gouging engagement prices.

Some can argue that ammo and firearms are necessities and must have for self defense, so it can be very price inelastic. Whatever it cost to defend my family.

[Martinjmpr]

Now that I think about it, another factor that can weigh in is how much ammo people are buying. "Panic buyers" who are getting their first gun (or maybe getting back into having a gun after doing without for many years) are likely only buying a box or two of ammo. In that circumstance, the difference between $15/box and $35/box really isn't that great. After all, if you're spending $600+ on a Glock or Springfield, an extra $20 for a box of ammo isn't really noticeable.

The people that are going to notice are the ones who are buying 200 - 300 rounds at a time, and doing that every week. But anybody who shoots that much likely has a good stockpile already, so they don't need to buy at "panic" prices either.

It's kind of like gasoline. I have a 4x4 truck with a 36 gallon tank (F-150) and a motorcycle. When I fill the truck, I damn well make sure I'm finding the cheapest fuel I can because I'm buying a lot.

But when I'm on the bike? I literally don't even look at the price of fuel. I'm buying probably 2 1/2 gallons at a time so even a $.50 increase in fuel cost isn't going to cost me more than a buck or so, not enough to worry about.

[VolksDragon]

It's kind of like gasoline. I have a 4x4 truck with a 36 gallon tank (F-150) and a motorcycle. When I fill the truck, I damn well make sure I'm finding the cheapest fuel I can because I'm buying a lot.

But when I'm on the bike? I literally don't even look at the price of fuel. I'm buying probably 2 1/2 gallons at a time so even a $.50 increase in fuel cost isn't going to cost me more than a buck or so, not enough to worry about.

This is a pretty good comparison. The difference under the supply / demand curve changes dramatically when the scale of the commodity is considered. If I had bought 10 cases of 9mm from Natchez at $155 back in early 2019 and sold them today for $500 apiece, that's a 322% difference worth $3450. If I only bought 200 rounds, it's still 322%, but it might not register as objectionable or unreasonable to the buyer who...and follow along here, folks...DEMANDS it.

This is all just craziness to many of use who have weathered the last 3 panics and are sitting on Red-Flag levels of ammo supplies, but to new gun buyers, they just don't know any better. I like to think I learned a little in 2008, and quite a bit in 2012, and then started building my ammo fort around my TP castle which houses my lowers. Gators for the moat are getting as scarce as M855, so those are on back order.

[Mtneer]

Good insight into the LGS business.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqeG-pUH9UU

[Great-Kazoo]

Good insight into the LGS business.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqeG-pUH9UU

sounds like the small stores around here. When even the 410 single shots are not available. It's basically the buyer, grabbing anything they can. He mentioned J&G. while they do have some decent prices. Their sales staff is horrendous. Picture walmart or home depot, when looking for a sales associate.

[Bailey Guns]

I finally got around to getting my clearance to get on the air base at Altus. Went over to the BX and discovered that's the nicest gun shop in the entire area. Well stocked with tons of guns and some ammo...tho they only allow 1 or 2 boxes of any caliber to be bought at one time. I wound up buying 2 guns...a Ruger LCP II .22 and a Ruger 57. And ammo for both. I didn't need the .22 but for $2.49 a box I figured why not? It's a pain in the ass to follow all of their rules, but no sales tax takes some of the hurt away.

[JohnnyDrama]

Good insight into the LGS business.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqeG-pUH9UU

That was an interesting video. At those margins its a wonder gun stores can stay in business. I went to a couple places that sell firearms yesterday. They seemed relatively well stocked - with firearms that is. Ammo supply was pitifully small. I think the gun market around here is likely saturated. Anyway, cool video.

Thanks for sharing.

[ray1970]

Got an email from CDNN saying they had ammunition in stock. Rather than price it and sell it they have it listed on gunbroker up for bid. I looked at some 1200 round cases of 9mm they had listed and two of them were bid over $800 and one was creeping up on $700. Crazy.

[MrPrena]

Some of the firearm prices are start to get normalize.

I just picked up brand new glock 1x FS for $530.

Sadly I am not qualified for blue label anymore.

[callerys]

Been looking for .22 and .22 mini mag but nowhere to be found for under .25/round. Any other options besides ammoseek?

[Eric P]

Been looking for .22 and .22 mini mag but nowhere to be found for under .25/round. Any other options besides ammoseek?

Cabelas right now. 500 rds less than $50

[.455_Hunter]

Midwayusa's fixed or nearly fixed ammo contracts must have been fulfilled, because ammo that they had been selling at ~$18 per box pretty recently is now ~$35 per box.

[Sawin]

The demand is slowing down, finally. I’m seeing stuff on the shelves a little bit longer than a month or two ago at least.