View Full Version : Don't know what to think - Polymer80 raided by ATF
powerstroke79
12-11-2020, 06:45
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/ghost-gun-company-raided-by-federal-agents-11607670296
(https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/ghost-gun-company-raided-by-federal-agents-11607670296)
(https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/ghost-gun-company-raided-by-federal-agents-11607670296)
Don’t know either, have to subscribe to see the article.
Guess we shall see how this plays out in court.
I guess the raid and the (lack of) logic behind it fits in nicely with all of the other B.S. going on in 2020.
Now off I go to purchase a couple of 80% pistol frames. Just in case.
kidicarus13
12-11-2020, 08:25
U.S.
Ghost-Gun Company Raided by Federal Agents
ATF suspects Polymer80 of breaking firearms laws, a sign that law enforcement is looking closer at makers of DIY gun kits
[https://images-wsj-net]
Ghost guns on display at the San Francisco Police Department headquarters in 2019.
PHOTO: HAVEN DALEY/ASSOCIATED PRESS
By
?
Zusha Elinson
Updated Dec. 11, 2020 7:40 am ET
Federal agents on Thursday raided one of the nation?s largest manufacturers of ghost-gun parts, a sign that federal law enforcement is cracking down on kits that allow people to make weapons at home.
The raid target, Nevada-based Polymer80, is suspected of illegally manufacturing and distributing firearms, failing to pay taxes, shipping guns across state lines and failing to conduct background investigations, according to an application for a search warrant unsealed Thursday after the raid took place.
The probe focuses on Polymer80?s ?Buy Build Shoot Kit,? which includes the parts to build a ?ghost? handgun. The kit, which Polymer80 sells online, meets the definition of a firearm, ATF investigators determined according to the warrant application. That means it would have to be stamped with a serial number and couldn?t be sold to consumers who haven?t first passed a background check.
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Polymer80 chief executive David Borges didn?t return phone calls or texts seeking comment Thursday evening.
Agents seized records and other evidence in Thursday?s raid in Dayton, close to Carson City, a law-enforcement official with knowledge of the investigation?said. No Polymer80 employees were arrested and no charges have been filed.
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The raid by agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives comes after ghost guns have been used more frequently in high-profile attacks. In September, two Los Angeles County Sheriff?s Department deputies were shot while sitting in their patrol vehicle by a man using a handgun built from Polymer80 parts, according to the documents. Last year, a 16-year-old?killed two fellow students and wounded three others?at Saugus High School in Southern California with a homemade handgun.
Thursday?s raid is the most significant action against a ghost-gun company to date, according to the law-enforcement officials, and suggests the federal government is scrutinizing the growing industry.
Homemade ghost guns have?grown in popularity in recent years?and can?t be traced in criminal investigations because they lack serial numbers. Law-enforcement officials say they appeal to people who can?t pass background checks.
When people buy fully made guns from dealers, the weapons have serial numbers and purchasers must go through a background check.
Approximately 10,000 ghost guns were recovered by law e nforcement in 2019, according to the warrant application. As part of the investigation, the ATF identified multiple Polymer80 customers who were prohibited from buying guns because of prior criminal convictions.
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The starting point for building a ghost gun is an ?unfinished receiver,? a metal or polymer piece that houses the firing mechanism. It can be purchased without a background check, because the ATF doesn?t classify the part as a firearm. Buyers can finish the receiver with a drill press or a computerized metal-cutting machine and then add the remaining pieces to complete the gun.
The ATF previously gave Polymer80 permission to sell unfinished receivers. But the Buy Build Shoot Kits, which are advertised as having ?all the necessary components to build a complete...pistol? weren?t submitted to the agency for approval, according to the application for the search warrant. These kits can be ?assembled into fully functional firearms in a matter of minutes,? the warrant application says.
Write to?Zusha Elinson at?zusha.elinson@wsj.com
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Happened 6 years go, too. What's old is new again...
ATF RAIDS ARES ARMOR, COLLECTS GUN BUYERS’ LISTS (https://gunowners.org/aler3212014/)
It's seizing the customer information that's chilling...
O2
I wonder if the ATF provide speech therapy to their agents to speak out both sides of their mouth so efficiently and consistently.
They plainly state that that the actual 80% portion of the kit don't fall under the definition of a firearm in the determination letter.
It's absurd to think that the same item determined to not be a firearm is suddenly a firearm when packaged with other stuff. ATF has also told manufacturers in the past not to send samples of every individual product when the basic determining factors are present as previously noted to be compliant. This is the same tactic they're trying to use with SB Tactical over the SBA3, etc.
https://www.polymer80.com/CMS-Images/ATF-DetLetters.pdf
(https://www.polymer80.com/CMS-Images/ATF-DetLetters.pdf)
Whats next, raiding microcenter and getting records for everyone who bought a 3d printer?
Abolish the ATF. They are a virtually useless agency. A & T should be the domain of the states. The F is a constitutionally guaranteed right that needs zero regulation.
Nothing else to say. Here?s a link: https://www.guntalk.com/post/polymer80-raided-by-atf
You could have just posted that in the existing thread. Just saying.
(Although, in your defense, the other thread is poorly titled.)
BushMasterBoy
12-11-2020, 12:40
"failing to pay taxes"
This bit of information from the article you linked is garbage.
?Their build kits are easy to assemble after you legally acquire the remaining 20-percent. ?
Wtf? So they sell you 80% of what you need and all you have to do is acquire the remaining 20% and assemble?
And they think of themselves as gun people.
"failing to pay taxes"
I did see that line and wondered if the whole raid had more to do with that than selling parts.
So updated info I saw elsewhere is that they made no arrests and filed no charges. That they simply took customer data.
Are there separate taxes on guns vs non-firearm parts?
If they erroneously consider these guns and not mere parts, then not paying gun taxes on not-guns-but-guns would make "sense".
I don?t think it matters too much what kind of taxes allegedly weren?t paid.
Just ask Al Capone about that crap.
You could have just posted that in the existing thread. Just saying.
(Although, in your defense, the other thread is poorly titled.)
I looked through the titles of other threads in General and Legislative and didn’t see one. My bad.
I don?t think it matters too much what kind of taxes allegedly weren?t paid.
Just ask Al Capone about that crap.
Well, it does if they're being accused of not paying gun taxes for selling... not guns.
It was poorly titled. Not only was the title vague, but the original post provided no real information unless you clicked a link.
We can just carry on with this one until the forum gods decide to merge them.
Great-Kazoo
12-11-2020, 13:21
Here's the latest update, from one of their distributors.
On December 10, 2020, ATF agents entered Polymer 80's warehouse in Nevada. They were seeking out their Polymer 80 BBS branded kits. At the time of this email, we are unaware of any kits being seized and JSD Supply has not been contacted in anyway by ATF. ATF is trying to re-classify an 80% receiver as a firearm because of the other parts it is being sold with. We at JSD Supply have taken the precaution of removing the finishing jig from our Polymer 80 Full Build Kits. If you purchase a full build kit and still require a jig, that will need to be added on as a separate item. We will do everything we can to keep you updated with any news we may hear. Please understand that we may have to make changes to our products on the fly and appreciate everything you do to support us and the industry.
Other parts don't make a firearm per the law. Whatever the ATF is on, the DEA needs to investigate.
Grant H.
12-11-2020, 14:15
I'm sure this has nothing to do with it...
https://americanactionnews.com/guns/2020/11/25/bidens-transition-team-meets-with-the-atf/
For the clicky-clicky averse, it's an article talking about Biden/Team talking with the ATF...
BushMasterBoy
12-11-2020, 14:31
I'm sure the taxes are payroll, FICA,Corporate etc.
The computer will flag the company, then the investigation will begin.
The Florida Keys are nice this time of year, so is Hawaii!
Here's the latest update, from one of their distributors.
On December 10, 2020, ATF agents entered Polymer 80's warehouse in Nevada. They were seeking out their Polymer 80 BBS branded kits. At the time of this email, we are unaware of any kits being seized and JSD Supply has not been contacted in anyway by ATF. ATF is trying to re-classify an 80% receiver as a firearm because of the other parts it is being sold with. We at JSD Supply have taken the precaution of removing the finishing jig from our Polymer 80 Full Build Kits. If you purchase a full build kit and still require a jig, that will need to be added on as a separate item. We will do everything we can to keep you updated with any news we may hear. Please understand that we may have to make changes to our products on the fly and appreciate everything you do to support us and the industry.
Here is my suspicion...if you sell a 80% kit it is an 80% kit...but if you add other completed parts to that same kit.......it changes the percentage of how much of the kit is completed. So an 80% lower has 80% completed but if you add a completed upper as part of the kit then 92% of the kit is now completed...
In other words the ATF is going to play semantics with this.
Are there separate taxes on guns vs non-firearm parts?
If they erroneously consider these guns and not mere parts, then not paying gun taxes on not-guns-but-guns would make "sense".
Yes. There's a big add gun tax. So the tax charge was just a freebie of they prove they were making guns
Here is my suspicion...if you sell a 80% kit it is an 80% kit...but if you add other completed parts to that same kit.......it changes the percentage of how much of the kit is completed. So an 80% lower has 80% completed but if you add a completed upper as part of the kit then 92% of the kit is now completed...
In other words the ATF is going to play semantics with this.
But that's not how a firearm is legally defined per federal law, and exactly the opposite of how the ATF determines if something is 80%.
Martinjmpr
12-11-2020, 17:03
Here is my suspicion...if you sell a 80% kit it is an 80% kit...but if you add other completed parts to that same kit.......it changes the percentage of how much of the kit is completed. So an 80% lower has 80% completed but if you add a completed upper as part of the kit then 92% of the kit is now completed...
In other words the ATF is going to play semantics with this.
I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. The 80% refers to the lower receiver, nothing else.
It doesn't matter what else you include, the only part that is considered a "firearm" under applicable Federal laws is the lower so whether you include an upper, stock, etc is irrelevant.
My guess is that Polymer is selling "80% receivers" PLUS all the parts to finish that 80% into a finished receiver (jigs, drill bits, templates, etc.) THAT is what makes it a firearm in the eyes of the ATF.
Is it weak? Maybe, maybe not but agency "interpretations" are given wide latitude by courts.
Rucker61
12-11-2020, 17:41
"failing to pay taxes"
If they are selling gun parts, then there is no excise tax under Section 4181 of the Internal Revenue Code. They feel they are selling gun parts, so they don't pay the excise tax. However, if the government feels that they are selling firearms, then under 4181 they owe excise tax, which hasn't been paid.
I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. The 80% refers to the lower receiver, nothing else.
It doesn't matter what else you include, the only part that is considered a "firearm" under applicable Federal laws is the lower so whether you include an upper, stock, etc is irrelevant.
My guess is that Polymer is selling "80% receivers" PLUS all the parts to finish that 80% into a finished receiver (jigs, drill bits, templates, etc.) THAT is what makes it a firearm in the eyes of the ATF.
Is it weak? Maybe, maybe not but agency "interpretations" are given wide latitude by courts.
I understand that is not how it works...but do you think that will stop the ATF from playing those games?
I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. The 80% refers to the lower receiver, nothing else.
It doesn't matter what else you include, the only part that is considered a "firearm" under applicable Federal laws is the lower so whether you include an upper, stock, etc is irrelevant.
My guess is that Polymer is selling "80% receivers" PLUS all the parts to finish that 80% into a finished receiver (jigs, drill bits, templates, etc.) THAT is what makes it a firearm in the eyes of the ATF.
Is it weak? Maybe, maybe not but agency "interpretations" are given wide latitude by courts.
It’s soy only diet levels of weak. It’s simply not a firearm. And no amount of tutorials, equipment, etc. make it so.
eddiememphis
12-11-2020, 19:09
As always, there is more to the story.
https://carsonnow.org/story/12/11/2020/dayton-based-gun-manufacture-raided-atf-illegally-selling-ghost-guns-among-other-fe
Highlights-
"According to a press release issued by District of Columbia Attorney General Karl A. Racine in June of 2020, a lawsuit was filed against Polymer80 for selling what are described as ?ghost guns.?
?Indeed, Polymer80?s guns have been used in several homicides in the District."
"The District of Columbia Office of the Attorney General alleged in their lawsuit that Polymer80 violated multiple aspects of the Consumer Protection Procedures Act..." including false claims and violating several DC laws.
Sounds like a poorly run business in several aspects.
As always, there is more to the story.
https://carsonnow.org/story/12/11/2020/dayton-based-gun-manufacture-raided-atf-illegally-selling-ghost-guns-among-other-fe
Highlights-
"According to a press release issued by District of Columbia Attorney General Karl A. Racine in June of 2020, a lawsuit was filed against Polymer80 for selling what are described as ?ghost guns.?
?Indeed, Polymer80?s guns have been used in several homicides in the District."
"The District of Columbia Office of the Attorney General alleged in their lawsuit that Polymer80 violated multiple aspects of the Consumer Protection Procedures Act..." including false claims and violating several DC laws.
Sounds like a poorly run government in several aspects.
FIFY.
They’re being raided and punished for: following the “law”. Let that sink in.
eddiememphis
12-11-2020, 19:27
FIFY.
They?re being raided and punished for: following the ?law?. Let that sink in.
"The investigation focused primarily on the company's "Buy Build Shoot Kit", which includes an 80% finished handgun frame and the components necessary to assemble that frame into a complete Polymer80 handgun, according to WSJ, which cited an ATF warrant. The agency determined that the set sold together meets the definition of a firearm and thereby would require a background check for purchasing, WSJ reported."
Obviously they are not being punished for following the law. I'm not an 80% shopper but the few I have seen sell the lower and a jig, not what is essentially an unassembled weapon.
If they were following the law, why were they singled out?
Don't get me wrong- after January, I'm sure the entire 80% industry will be shut down, along with a lot of other negative changes. But to lament this one seems premature and paranoid.
The investigation focused primarily on the company?s ?Buy Build Shoot Kit,? which includes an 80% finished handgun frame and the components necessary to assemble that frame into a complete Polymer80 handgun, according to WSJ, which cited an ATF warrant. The agency determined that the set sold together meets the definition of a firearm and thereby would require a background check for purchasing, WSJ reported.
This is why I think it has to do with the percentages. You buy just the lower and you are getting 80% of a finished gun. If you buy a package deal with the 80% lower and a finished upper you are getting a 92% finished gun.
The investigation focused primarily on the company?s ?Buy Build Shoot Kit,? which includes an 80% finished handgun frame and the components necessary to assemble that frame into a complete Polymer80 handgun, according to WSJ, which cited an ATF warrant. The agency determined that the set sold together meets the definition of a firearm and thereby would require a background check for purchasing, WSJ reported.
How does a not-a-firearm in a box with other not-a-firearms equal a firearm?
This is why I think it has to do with the percentages. You buy just the lower and you are getting 80% of a finished gun. If you buy a package deal with the 80% lower and a finished upper you are getting a 92% finished gun.
80% is not a legal term used by the atf. If its not a firearm, its not a firearm.
80% is just a term that is used in the industry.
eddiememphis
12-11-2020, 19:36
How does a not-a-firearm in a box with other not-a-firearms equal a firearm?
Government.
A rifle with a short barrel and a brace is a pistol yet a pistol with a stock is a rifle.
Bureaucratic nonsense.
And likely to get worse. Pistol grips and bayonet lugs? They are coming back as items to ban.
eddiememphis
12-11-2020, 19:38
From ATF.GOV
"80% receiver," "80% finished," "80% complete" and "unfinished receiver" are all terms referring to an item that some may believe has not yet reached a stage of manufacture that meets the definition of "firearm frame" or "receiver" according to the Gun Control Act (GCA). These are not statutory terms and ATF does not use or endorse them.
Last Reviewed February 6, 2020
BushMasterBoy
12-11-2020, 19:39
An agency interpreting law is a very dangerous precedent. They just want money, not justice.
From ATF.GOV
"80% receiver," "80% finished," "80% complete" and "unfinished receiver" are all terms referring to an item that some may believe has not yet reached a stage of manufacture that meets the definition of "firearm frame" or "receiver" according to the Gun Control Act (GCA). These are not statutory terms and ATF does not use or endorse them.
Last Reviewed February 6, 2020
That may be what is posted on their website as a guide, but 80% is not something that is printed in the legislation.
Government.
A rifle with a short barrel and a brace is a pistol yet a pistol with a stock is a rifle.
Bureaucratic nonsense.
And likely to get worse. Pistol grips and bayonet lugs? They are coming back as items to ban.
You can head over to the orange store and get a piece of black pipe and a few endcaps, then head to sportsmans and pick up some powder and cannon fuse.
If you packed all that into a box, it does not meet the definition of a bomb. It may be seen as constructive possession of a bomb, but it is not a bomb.
Constructive possession of a firearm in this case is not a problem, unless the person in possession is a prohibited party.
eddiememphis
12-11-2020, 19:47
Firearms Act of 1968
" (3) The term 'firearm' means (A) any weapon (including a starter
gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel
a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver
of any such weapon; ..."
Readily converted.
Looks open to interpretation.
ATF has already determined that the piece of plastic is NOT a firearm. It doesn't magically become a firearm because of its proximity to other parts.
My opinion doesn't mean anything, but I interpret "readily converted" to mean assembled, as opposed to manufactured. Assembled without any tools, like assembling a field striped pistol, as opposed to chocking up into a drill press to complete manufacture.
eddiememphis
12-11-2020, 19:54
... it does not meet the definition of a bomb...
Constructive possession of a firearm in this case is not a problem, unless the person in possession is a prohibited party.
Bomb? It may depend on intent. Guys have been arrested for just that, having components.
According to the DC Attorney General, the distributor sold their wares to residents of that fine city, which is prohibited.
We are mixing points here. It seems the company named violated a few existing laws.
Whether those laws are just or not is a different issue.
Is this an abuse of power? I think that's what we are all afraid of.
eddiememphis
12-11-2020, 19:56
ATF has already determined that the piece of plastic is NOT a firearm. It doesn't magically become a firearm because of its proximity to other parts.
Tell that to Beto.
He may be in charge of correcting the scourge of individuals that own firearms.
eddiememphis
12-11-2020, 19:57
My opinion doesn't mean anything, but I interpret "readily converted" to mean assembled, as opposed to manufactured. Assembled without any tools, like assembling a field striped pistol, as opposed to chocking up into a drill press to complete manufacture.
See above.
Do you think any legislator knows the difference between an end mill and a drill bit? Can identify a micrometer, let alone read one?
It doesn't matter what we think, we don't make the laws.
Edit- or executive orders...
Bomb? It may depend on intent. Guys have been arrested for just that, having components.
According to the DC Attorney General, the distributor sold their wares to residents of that fine city, which is prohibited.
We are mixing points here. It seems the company named violated a few existing laws.
Whether those laws are just or not is a different issue.
Is this an abuse of power? I think that's what we are all afraid of.
Yes, because those people were prohibited from possessing a bomb, and the parts were considered constructive possession. If you had those items, but are not prohibited from having a bomb, you don't have a bomb.
I have a incomplete lower receiver out in the garage, it is in a bin with other parts, doesn't make it a firearm
See above.
Do you think any legislator knows the difference between an end mill and a drill bit? Can identify a micrometer, let alone read one?
It doesn't matter what we think, we don't make the laws.
Edit- or executive orders...
I think any legislator knows the difference between an end mill, drill press, and zero tools at all.
eddiememphis
12-11-2020, 20:10
I have a incomplete lower receiver out in the garage, it is in a bin with other parts, doesn't make it a firearm
No you don't. Your wife threw that away when she was helping clean the garage. [tinhat]
No you don't. Your wife threw that away when she was helping clean the garage. [tinhat]
Hah!
She sure as hell doesn't know. She pretty much told me that I couldn't buy gun stuff for a while when we made a large purchase.
She doesn't pay attention to what happens in the shop, or in the gun room (which is why I ship stuff to a friends house, like my 80% GST-9
kidicarus13
12-11-2020, 20:20
She doesn't pay attention to what happens in the shop, or in the gun room (which is why I ship stuff to a friends house, like my 80% GST-9
Don't worry, it'll all be revealed during U.S. v 00tec
I'm making my Free 00tec! signs already.
kidicarus13
12-11-2020, 20:30
I'm making my Free 00tec! signs already.It's a free market... gouge the buyers.
What's the difference between punitive fines and price gouging?
Ain’t no freeing a cadaver. #savethetanneritedogs!
What's the difference between punitive fines and price gouging?
19%
The mistake made here and made often is believing that orders, laws, regulation, etc. are followed by the judicial branch. Reality is, if they want you, there's a myriad of millions of pages of precedence and~300,000 pages of U.S.C. / F.C.R., they will get you. It doesn't matter if you interpret something to be legal. This company was apparently selling tools to complete the gun with the parts, or something to that effect, and they were doing so for a long time, nobody cared. More importantly one of their guns was used to shoot two sheriffs deputies.
The guns were not any more or less legal or illegal before the deputies were shot, various D.A.s reached agreement to take the company out simply because the deputies were shot. They had their objective and then identified "causes" to blame. Now, whether or not those causes are valid, that, in my opinion, is how the majority of shutdowns occur, and it's also very fucked up. There's all sorts of businesses that should be shut down (broad economy) that are not. Instead, resources are determined based on who and what people in power dislike. We may not be as bad as several other countries (companies outright paying cash to police) but we have certain aspects of those systems.
If you find yourself in the sights of D.A.s, it is over. Other manufacturers are probably ok until after the comment period that will inevitably come in a few months.
theGinsue
12-12-2020, 03:16
Late to the party.
Threads merged. Vague title updated (old thread title merged with new thread title).
I left a redirect in the new thread in the General Discussion forum but it will expire in 2 days after which you'll have to come to this forum to see this thread.
Great-Kazoo
12-12-2020, 09:40
The mistake made here and made often is believing that orders, laws, regulation, etc. are followed by the judicial branch. Reality is, if they want you, there's a myriad of millions of pages of precedence and~300,000 pages of U.S.C. / F.C.R., they will get you. It doesn't matter if you interpret something to be legal. This company was apparently selling tools to complete the gun with the parts, or something to that effect, and they were doing so for a long time, nobody cared. More importantly one of their guns was used to shoot two sheriffs deputies.
The guns were not any more or less legal or illegal before the deputies were shot, various D.A.s reached agreement to take the company out simply because the deputies were shot. They had their objective and then identified "causes" to blame. Now, whether or not those causes are valid, that, in my opinion, is how the majority of shutdowns occur, and it's also very fucked up. There's all sorts of businesses that should be shut down (broad economy) that are not. Instead, resources are determined based on who and what people in power dislike. We may not be as bad as several other countries (companies outright paying cash to police) but we have certain aspects of those systems.
If you find yourself in the sights of D.A.s, it is over. Other manufacturers are probably ok until after the comment period that will inevitably come in a few months.
Exactly.
IF an enforcement agency "wants you" doesn't matter how solid your alibi is, how many pieces of evidence one has to show their charges are false.
The guv can tie you up for decades in court. as well has the deep pockets to 1: bankrupt you 2: get to the point you'll plead to a lesser / reduced charge.
ATF has already determined that the piece of plastic is NOT a firearm. It doesn't magically become a firearm because of its proximity to other parts.
...and yet a bump stock is a ?machine gun?.
To Bear Arms
12-12-2020, 10:58
Looks like the ATF is visiting customers now. Wonder how many they plan on visiting.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/12/11/polymer80-kits/
To Bear Arms
12-12-2020, 11:29
Sorry, I think I fixed it.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/12/11/polymer80-kits/
hollohas
12-12-2020, 12:50
Ammoland reported on Nov 10th that the Biden transition team was already in contact with the ATF asking them to go after 80%'s.
And here we are, one month later, the ATF doing just that. Following the policy of an administration that's not even in office yet.
The swamp is deep. No part of the administrative state is our friend.
Sorry, I think I fixed it.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/12/11/polymer80-kits/
Simple test to gauge how compliant citizens will be to confiscation. Taking them away a step at a time.
Too bad our current president isn't stepping in. Guess in the end, it will be up to the citizens to tell the Bureau of Agents Trampling Freedom Everywhere to go pound sand.
BPTactical
12-14-2020, 12:23
"failing to pay taxes"
From what I understand-
In the configuration P80 sells these "kits" they have to pay the Federal Excise Tax on them. They didn't.
Game over.
Also I gather P80 did not get a "Mother May I" letter from the alphabet crew prior to putting these "Kits" on the market.
Game over.
As strange as it sounds I have had to deal with this when buying a "Parts set" for a muzzleloader. The gent selling the parts set provided everything but the lock, which I had to procure on my own. He explained that even though a "replica" firearm if he provided all of the components he was liable for the FET.
But it's NOT a firearm, so is there FET on not-firearms?
Nothing in the kit is a firearm on its own or by federal definition of one when considered together.
Yep 80% of a receiver is not the same thing as 80% of a firearm.
But this is not the first I have heard of that issue. Some companies were
getting 'pinged' that you could not sell the jig at the same time.
Some rules just make you want to go - ahh -ok, bless their little heart...that is until you realize how much it would screw up your life.
If I remember one person got nailed for setting up mentos + 2 liter coke bottle as a "bomb". After I read that story (year + ago) I thought it must have been by the same people who label everything as a weapon of war and a fully semi-automatic device of destruction.
So collect all sales records of the 80% type item and consider them a weapon when it is time to confiscate everything. Even my rusty spoon
Martinjmpr
12-14-2020, 13:52
So collect all sales records of the 80% type item and consider them a weapon when it is time to confiscate everything. Even my rusty spoon
If it's only 80% of a spoon you're OK though.
If it's only 80% of a spoon you're OK though.
What happens in the field stays in the field, man.
Keeping customer records on unregulated goods... bad move P80. Make it painful for the alphabet soups to do thier job at least.
Its also stupid we even need background checks for a constitutionally guaranteed right. Trump was never pro 2A except when begging for votes from certain crowds.
Grant H.
12-14-2020, 17:32
It really is unfortunate that they kept all those records when they didn't have to.
It's been touched on a couple times here, but this comes down to crossing the ATF's "recent" decision that the jig and rails can't be included with the receiver in the same part number. Why does this matter when everyone simply puts the second part number on the order? Who knows... Out of the old saying "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit" they clearly choose bullshit every time.
This also seems very reminiscent of the old "build days" at HPM that got shut down. Too much stuff in one spot and too simple to finish.
VolksDragon
12-14-2020, 18:27
So I was thinking...the fact that I have never been, but am now strongly considering picking up a few of these P80 kits probably means this ATF stunt is going to do phenomenal things for their sales. As most regulatory interference does, I suppose.
VolksDragon
12-14-2020, 18:30
Keeping customer records on unregulated goods... bad move P80.
I mean...doesn't every online merchant do this for the most part, though? I know for certain Amazon, Natchez, SGAmmo, Primary Arms, etc can probably tell me everything I've ever ordered, and I'm sure their CC provider can do the same. Doesn't mean I'm a fan of such record keeping, but I doubt they set out to retain those records nefariously. It probably helped them that they DID have those records, especially since deleting everything all VPN style would look super sketchy.
Grant H.
12-14-2020, 19:47
So I was thinking...the fact that I have never been, but am now strongly considering picking up a few of these P80 kits probably means this ATF stunt is going to do phenomenal things for their sales. As most regulatory interference does, I suppose.
Lots of folks are probably thinking this way too.
Now, they may be looking at the other manufacturers, but this kind of thing is only going to drive sales higher.
I mean...doesn't every online merchant do this for the most part, though? I know for certain Amazon, Natchez, SGAmmo, Primary Arms, etc can probably tell me everything I've ever ordered, and I'm sure their CC provider can do the same. Doesn't mean I'm a fan of such record keeping, but I doubt they set out to retain those records nefariously. It probably helped them that they DID have those records, especially since deleting everything all VPN style would look super sketchy.
If they had, from the beginning, not kept those records then it wouldn't be a problem.
I agree though, if they had been and then decided to delete it, that would have been a whole different problem.
Article.
If ATF Comes A Knocking, Only Surrender Your 80% Frame or Receiver Under Protest!
Joshua Prince, Esq. Joshua Prince, Esq.
.........
"Be aware that the agent may attempt to have you sign an ATF 3400.1 Form ? Consent to Forfeiture or Destruction of Property and Waiver of Notice ? which you should NOT sign under ANY circumstance. In the event that they ask you to sign an ATF 3400.1, inform them that the only ATF form you are willing to sign is an ATF 3400.23 ? Receipt of Property and Other Items, as the ATF 3400.23 does not contain language, wherein you agree to the forfeiture/destruction of your property."
https://blog.princelaw.com/2020/12/14/if-atf-comes-a-knocking-only-surrender-your-80-frame-or-receiver-under-protest/amp/
DireWolf
12-15-2020, 15:54
It's been touched on a couple times here, but this comes down to crossing the ATF's "recent" decision that the jig and rails can't be included with the receiver in the same part number.
Everything I've seen on this so far has mentioned the build & shoot kits, which are the ones that come with everything (slide, bbl, lpk, fcg, etc.)...
Haven't seen anything yet that indicated the basic p80 kits (just frame, jig/bits, and metal rails) were also in the crosshairs, at least currently.
battlemidget
12-15-2020, 16:57
It's not like Polymer80 included a free wall hanger...
Grant H.
12-15-2020, 17:25
Everything I've seen on this so far has mentioned the build & shoot kits, which are the ones that come with everything (slide, bbl, lpk, fcg, etc.)...
Haven't seen anything yet that indicated the basic p80 kits (just frame, jig/bits, and metal rails) were also in the crosshairs, at least currently.
GlockStore and 80Percent had to sell the jig and rails separately.
80Percent is selling kits that include all the parts minus the jig/rails.
Due to recently changed ATF regulations, we cannot legally include the jig or frame rails with the GST-9 frame. The jig and GST-9 frame must be purchased on our website as two separate items. Each jig includes one set of GST-9 frame rails. You will need to purchase one jig for every GST-9 frame you plan to build. Frame rails are ONLY included with the jig, not with the 80% lower itself.
ETA:
The focus on the buy, build, shoot kits is solely driven by the stupid DC court case.
As soon as they successfully take away the BBS kits, without a ton of pushback, I wouldn't be surprised if the confiscation expanded to include frames sold with the rails/jigs after the "regulation" changed.
clodhopper
12-15-2020, 18:52
What court case in DC?
This is messing with my logic base. How is selling all the stuff in one box any different from selling it in two different boxes? It is legal to make your own firearm if you have to jump through hoops to get materials from different vendors, but not if one vendor has all the materials you want? I have never found much about the ATF decisions to be super clear/logical, but this differentiation doesnt make much sense at all. I must be missing something.
Grant H.
12-15-2020, 19:26
What court case in DC?
This is messing with my logic base. How is selling all the stuff in one box any different from selling it in two different boxes? It is legal to make your own firearm if you have to jump through hoops to get materials from different vendors, but not if one vendor has all the materials you want? I have never found much about the ATF decisions to be super clear/logical, but this differentiation doesnt make much sense at all. I must be missing something.
I agree. It makes no sense, but Poly80 was shipping rails/jigs with their frames, and then GlockStore popped up with the SS80 and said that the ATF required them to separate them, and 80Percent followed suit with the GST-9.
80Percent is selling their GST-9 kits with everything except the jig and rails, and thus far they haven't been raided by the ATF.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/district-of-columbia-sues-polymer80-for-selling-ghost-gun-parts-to-dc-residents/
(https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/district-of-columbia-sues-polymer80-for-selling-ghost-gun-parts-to-dc-residents/)
What’s being sold in the BBS kits is not a firearm per any legal definition.
It is not illegal to build one’s own firearm.
Therefore, it doesn’t matter if someone is selling a non-firearm kit to build a firearm.
Why is anyone in this thread trying to play chess with the monkey that is the ATF? Recognize them for what they are: shit flinging morons who want nothing more than to place the heels of their boots upon your neck.
The “well... such and such and blah and blah” folks remind me of what conversations in Poland must have been like weeks before entire villages got wiped off the map.
cmailliard
12-16-2020, 06:53
https://www.ammoland.com/2020/12/stamps-com-authorize-net-rat-out-polymer80s-customers/#axzz6gn3lShDA
Ammoland has the entire warrant request. This was all about the Buy, Build Shoot kits and actions taken in accordance with the BBS kits. The ATF even says there are determination letters for just the P80 frame. They had a CI who is a convicted felon assemble a BBS kit in about 21 minutes with no coaching and using his own tools, he did watch videos. Looks like they used this to apply the "readily be converted" part the the definition of a firearm to classify the BBS as a firearm. Seems they are also using the same logic as the braces. Because one brace had a determination letter, that does not give all braces the same standing. Here it is just because the is a determination letter for the frame, we (ATF) did not give one for the BBS Kit.
P80 did screw up when they sent 15 round magazines with the kit to California address of the ATF, but that does not seem to even be an issue in the warrant. They used Authorize.net and Stamps.com to track buyers addresses, some of whom were addresses who exists only to ship US goods internationally.
The warrant should be read by everyone to understand the mindset and how they look at things. Again it really was only about the BBS kits and "items for a BBS kit arranged close together for shipping". Then all the information around that - shipping, electronic documents, taxes, etc. There is a whole section on destroying evidence and why the raid was done between 0500-0600 when the first employee arrived on site a P80. But it is worth the read.
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