CCW Question [Archive] - Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums

RCCrawler

12-04-2009, 18:21

I have my CCW and have had it for the last year or so.

Last week I was driving home late at night, like 12:30 am or so. I just got off the highway after doing 70mph for an hour, and hit a 35mph zone, needless to say I got busted doing 54 in a 35.

I have no problem getting a ticket, and handling that. I was in the wrong, and will suffer the consequences.

My question comes in here:

When the officer came up to my truck I already had all my paperwork out and handed it to him.

When he came back up to my car he gave me my stuff back, and then while I was taking my ass chewing I started to put my ID into my wallet. As I did this he saw my CCW permit and asked what it was.

When I told him what it was, he started yelling at me and told me I was required to tell him right when he pulled me over that I was a CCW holder. I told him I was not carrying my weapon at the time, but if I would I for sure would have let him know.

He told me that it doesn't matter if I have my weapon or not, I am required by law to inform him that I have a CCW.

He even went as far as to tell me that he could take it from me right there on the spot for not informing him.

I thought 2 things, 1. They knew we were CCW holders the minute they ran our info, and 2. We only had to tell them if we were actually carrying.

What say you?

TFOGGER

12-04-2009, 18:52

In Colorado:

You are not required to tell the officer you are a permit holder, and technically there isn't supposed to be a database that tells them when they run your Driver's license(sometime they know, sometimes they don't), but! it is considered to be the courteous thing to do to inform them before they find out on their own. Other states(notably Utah) have different requirements as far as notification, including in some cases specific wording and actions that you are required to perform.

My policy has been to hand the CCW permit to the officer along with my DL, registration, and insurance card, and verbally tell him "I have a concealed carry permit, and I am(or am not, as applicable) armed. How would you like for me to proceed?" while keeping my hands in plain view. NEVER use the words gun or weapon, as the cop may revert to training, and react unfavorably. Usually, they will ask where you are carrying, and may choose to disarm you for the duration of the contact (within their rights), but usually they relax a bit, as they have some idea what kind of background checks you had to go through to get your permit, and you are unlikely to be a bad guy.

pickenup

12-04-2009, 18:52

Just another cop that does NOT know the law.
He is WRONG on two accounts.

Text of the law.....

(2) (a) A permittee, in compliance with the terms of a permit, may carry a concealed handgun as allowed by state law. The permittee shall carry the permit, together with valid photo identification, at all times during which the permittee is in actual possession of a concealed handgun and shall produce both documents upon demand by a law enforcement officer. Failure to produce a permit upon demand by a law enforcement officer raises a rebuttable presumption that the person does not have a permit. Failure to carry and produce a permit and valid photo identification upon demand as required in this subsection (2) is a class 1 petty offense.

Colorado law does NOT require that you inform an officer that you are carrying.

(b) A peace officer may temporarily disarm a permittee, incident to a lawful stop of the permittee. The peace officer shall return the handgun to the permittee prior to discharging the permittee from the scene.
Notice the word.........temporarily.............

Hoosier

12-04-2009, 18:52

http://cbi.state.co.us/ccw/relatedstats.asp

http://cbi.state.co.us/ccw/Statutes/18-12-214.asp

Not sure if 214 is the only section discussing LEO's or not.

GhostRider

12-04-2009, 18:53

There is no legal requirement to inform an officer that you have a CCW permit or are lawfully carrying. There has been much debate as to whether someone should do this. I think it depends on the situation. If the encounter is incidental and consensual, i.e. no criminal activity involved, then I don't think it necessary to inform the officer. If there is actually a lawful stop, it might be wise to inform the officer that you are a licensed concealed handgun permit holder and have a firearm on your person. That will accomplish two things that will immediately tell the officer you are not a threat--you TOLD him you have a gun and that you are licensed.

This was taken from another forum as it says it better than I would have. I always tell an officer that I am carrying so he doesnt see it when I move or something. I do not tell them not am I required by the law to tell them that I have a permit and not carrying. I think that you might want to get a hold of that officers Sgt. and have him inform the officer of the correct law requirements and how to best deal with the public on this.

Bailey Guns

12-04-2009, 19:58

First, the officer was absolutely wrong with regards to notification requirements as others have stated. Find his name on your summons, call his department and ask for a supervisor. Explain to the supervising officer what happened and your understanding of the law (which is there is no requirement to inform).

My opinion on LE contacts is not to volunteer the information on "routine" contacts such as traffic stops. If it's something a little more involved, I agree that telling the officer you have a permit and are armed is the way to go.

Kudos for admitting you were actually speeding. When I was on the job, honesty would almost always get people out of a traffic ticket...at least the serious offenses (I might stop someone for speeding but write them for not wearing their seatbelt, for example).

Colorado Luckydog

12-04-2009, 20:45

Just another Cop on steroids.

Irving

12-04-2009, 20:51

Someone needs to publish the stats on just how many CCW holders have used their weapons in unlawful manners, then pass it around to all the police departments, just like they pass around info on what to do with people with Ron Paul stickers.

GunTroll

12-04-2009, 20:58

two shoes

12-04-2009, 21:05

Irving

12-04-2009, 21:08

I know that some of the more news worthy shooting sprees had CCW holders like Virginia Tech and the guy who shot up the Aerobics room at his gym, but I consider those premeditated and entirely in a different class.

Irving

12-05-2009, 01:29

This is one of those ideas I've had that I preach but have been bad at doing myself.

Since you have to carry your CCW with you at all times anyway, might as well make a small note card the same size and list some statute numbers on it to use as reference. "I don't mean to be argumentative, but the law says nothing about me being required to inform you of anything. I've got the statute numbers right here if you want to check the law in the book that's in your car right now. I'll wait."

Another example of ideas like this, is putting the non-emergency number to a few local PDs in my cell phone. I still haven't done that yet. I guess I'll do it right now.

gnihcraes

12-05-2009, 09:57

in our ccw class, we were told to print out the El Paso county application and keep a copy in our cars. It contains all the statute information in it.

This should be the link to it in PDF form.

http://shr.elpasoco.com/NR/rdonlyres/B999F2B8-570B-42A8-9B0B-6109DB267BB8/0/ConcealedHandgunPermitInfoApplicationPacket011309. pdf

motorep

12-05-2009, 10:22

I've had a few occasions to give my paperwork to an officer. Two where people ran into me, and a few where they needed to tell me I was going too fast. I hand them my permit with my driver's license and tell them "here, I don't want you to be alarmed when this comes up on my driver's license report". And it does. In every case, I've received a "thank you". In two cases,the officer asked where I was carrying, and in two cases, where I was expecting, and deserving, a multi-point ticket, the officer handed my paperwork back to me with "have a nice day".

I started doing this back before "shall issue". I was stopped by a young officer. Gave him my paperwork, he went back to his car. A few minutes later he backed his car away from mine, he had called for backup. He had never seen CCW, or concealed weapon come up on a report before. His sergeant showed up, got out of the car with a smile on his face, walked up to my window. "Sir, do you have a concealed weapons permit?" Yes, I do. "Would you please show it to this young officer, he's never seen that report before?" Sure. The young officer was suitably embarrassed, so he gave me a ticket for 10 over, which I was doing. When he handed me the ticket he said "Mr. Jones, do you mind if I ask what you're carrying?" No, I don't mind. Combat Commander .45 with a J-frame backup. Big smile, "Nice!" and a thumbs-up from the officer.

My point is-put the officer at ease, you're not a bad guy, and they deal with enough of those as it is.

BadShot

12-05-2009, 10:26

The fact of the matter is that the Officer in this case was out of line and misinformed. I agree that you should contact the supervisor and ask that the officer in question be educated correctly and that you don't appreciate the threatening, demeaning and ignorant fashion that the officer conducted himself in.

I've been stopped once once since I had my CCW, engaged in 2 other minor instances where Arapaho county deputies were involved. In 2 of those cases, I dealt with the same asshat deputy. In neither instance did I feel compelled to inform the asshat that I was armed as neither situation required it. The remaining instance, it's the first thing I informed the officer of. Mostly because I knew that there was a good chance that as I became more animated in my arm expressions that my holster might become exposed from under my jacket. The officer in question just said thanks for letting me know and we continued the discussion at hand.

We have an obligation to both follow the law, know the law and where we said such significant failures by law enforcement, to ensure they are properly educated as best as possible. In this case, that would be contacting the supervisor.

I agree with the idea of keeping the statute numbers somewhere on your person or on your phone (if you have a smart phone like many of us do) along with a few lawyers numbers and relevent non-emergency numbers for the local PD/Sherrif's offices. Just smart things to have.... now.. where the hell did I leave my phone, I gots some things to add [ROFL1]

sniper7

12-05-2009, 12:27

sucks this guy was un-informed of the requirements we are supposed to follow.
I had a similar situation driving to the airport at about 4:30 am. pulled out by adams county sherrif (where my permit is issued), I am in uniform(pilot). I was speeding, no denying it. He asked for my drivers license etc. I wasn't carrying since I was going to work. he gets on his loud speaker..."
Mr Sniper7 are you carrying a firearm?" I shake my head no, he comes back in a big huff and proceeds to chew me out for not telling him.

just another example of them not being informed. I understand from their point of view that they would like to know...but they aren't going to know when a real bad guy is armed and he certainly isn't going to tell them.

the only good thing about telling them is it puts them at ease, and usually saves you a ticket. After that I decided I will tell them about it no matter what. It is a nice common courtesy.

TFOGGER

12-05-2009, 12:38

It's ironic that we go out of our way to know the exact letter of the law, because we're carrying a firearm, and many cops feel like they don't need to know the actual law, because they're carrying an firearm. [Stooge]

pickenup

12-05-2009, 13:11

Was pulled over a couple years ago while out for a putt.
(speeding, gravel truck that was loosing gravel was trying to pass in the fast lane, I was in the slow lane. I was not going to let him get in front of me...again)
Anyway, while getting my drivers license out he saw my CCW. Asked me if I was carrying, I said, yes. Asked where, I said "right hip" he told me to keep my hands away from it. I said "yes sir" That was it. NO overblown paranoia, no threats, no nothing. He was a professional about it.

I asked him if "HE" would ride behind a gravel truck that was loosing gravel (he was on a scooter too) he said that he wouldn't.
I still got a ticket. [Rant1]

The Extractor

12-05-2009, 13:42

I have had it both ways. I was on the border town with kansas at 1 am or something and and couldnt find a store to buy window washer stuff. I parked by the post office cuz it had good light and a police rolls up and asks to run my stuff. I drifted a couple corners in the 1.5 of snow cuz it is fun and someone was awake and called, whatever. He goes and runs my stuff and comes back and is standing at my open door ,my truck was off and he didnt want me to start it to put the window down. The report is coming back on his radio and he staps back and unsnaps his gun. Then asks me if I am carrying , I say yes. Turns out ok. I was being dumb. Oh well.

Another instance, I had my plate off the back of my truck(another long story) Statie pulls me over for that, asks for my info, I give him my permit first and tell him as a courtesy I am giving it to him. That makes him happy and says thank you. We continue , no ticket even though I cant find any of my stuff.

Another time local pd pulled me over I did the same thing he was indifferent. no ticket no biggie.

Irving

12-05-2009, 14:40

For the people who want to notify in all situations. Let's say you are driving clients to lunch or from a business meeting or something? I've heard people telling me that sometimes the officer will ask for licenses on all the people in the car, and will ask the CCW guy if he is carrying right in front of everyone. I would be upset about this and explain to the officer that if I had wanted people to know I was carrying, I'd just open carry and not even bother with a permit in the first place. I'd rather an officer ask me to step out of the car, ask me quietly behind the car, and let me make up a lie to the co-workers in the car on my own. Just something to think about.

The Extractor

12-05-2009, 14:46

I never have anyone else in my truck,usually. if there is someone 99 % of the time it is someone I know that already knows.

Graves

12-05-2009, 14:58

iamhunter

12-05-2009, 16:07

http://vpc.org/studies/ccw2009.pdf

I don't see how this could help us.

I don't see how it should't 56 CCW related fatalities over the last two years.

You know how many TOTAL gun related homicides there was for those three years? Over 11,000. So less than .5% of all gun related homicides involve a CCW holder.

that seems like pretty favorable statistics to me.

Elhuero

12-05-2009, 17:53

The cop was wrong, period.

When I'm carrying and get pulled over, I tell the officer first thing.

When I'm not carrying, I don't mention it.

Had I been in that position, I would have told the cop to go ahead and take it, you're gonna look real stupid.

Hellboy

12-05-2009, 18:33

In my CC class our instructor told us that some counties put that you are a CCW permit holder others don't. And that the counties that do can word it differently, supposedly Arapahoe puts it in as "person of interest"[Eek3] that was about 2 years ago so hopefully they have changed it.

two shoes

12-05-2009, 18:39

http://vpc.org/studies/ccw2009.pdf

I don't see how this could help us.
That report is biased at best. To use the word slain is not an objective study...

Graves

12-05-2009, 18:45

That report is biased at best. To use the word slain is not an objective study...

You really think so?!!? [Stooge]
Of course it is, it was made by the VPC - total ant firearm group. Who else would you expect to take the time to compile a list like that?

rhineoshott

12-07-2009, 15:45

Somewhere I heard that police are only able to see if you have a permit if your CCW was issued in Adams county. They say Douglas county is one of the best to get your permit from (you have to live there when you get it)

Bailey Guns

12-07-2009, 15:59

Most sheriff's do, though there is no statutory requirement to do so, report their list of persons to whom permits have been issued to be entered into the CCIC database. This is from the County Sheriff's of Colorado website:
__________
DATABASES:

Each Sheriff shall maintain a list of permit holders. Information may be shared with another criminal justice agency upon request by that agency for law enforcement purposes or for the purpose of determining the validity of the permit.

Permit holders may be entered into a CCIC database. This database is searchable by name and only available to law enforcement personnel. This file has no criminal implications but will identify a permit holder who comes in contact with a law enforcement agency to facilitate notification of the issuing Sheriff in the event of any misconduct or concerns regarding the permit holder.
__________

I don't think it really matters which county you get your permit from.

rhineoshott

12-07-2009, 16:05

Ahhh. I didn't know that. Thanks

Bailey Guns

12-07-2009, 16:19

I think the RMGO website also has a list of sheriff's who submit their list of permit holders to the CCIC. I'll see if I can find that.

Bailey Guns

12-07-2009, 16:24

Looks like it was last updated on 03/07...but here's the link. It may have changed a bit since 07:

http://www.rmgo.org/ccwguide/CCIC.shtml

two shoes

12-11-2009, 19:52

http://vpc.org/studies/ccw2009.pdf

I don't see how this could help us.
Just sitting here thinking... how many incidents where bystanders are shot by LEOs in the line of duty. I know it is horrible to think about, and may be a difficult subject. I know they spend hours training.
DO NOT GET ME WRONG... I am just looking for a comparison here....
I am NOT knocking our LEOs in any way, shape or form.... I truly appreciate and admire the work they do everyday.

If I wasn't too old, (or too fat) I would love to be involved in LE.

Just wondering....

Asbestos undies are on... just in case...

two shoes

12-11-2009, 20:01

I think the RMGO website also has a list of sheriff's who submit their list of permit holders to the CCIC. I'll see if I can find that.
Larimer County does. I spoke to Sheriff Alderden about this... he said it was in case of "Howling at the Moon" Where an individual was drunk, or drazed, causing trouble, they would know if he was armed.

Bailey Guns

12-11-2009, 20:05

I'll have to look it up but I read a statistic not too long ago from either a Kopel or Kates study that said police officers shoot the wrong person at a rate 6.5 times higher than armed civilians in certain types of confrontations/disturbances.

It's not because cops suck at their jobs...it's most likely caused because they are thrust into so many unknown situations where people, good guys and bad, are waving guns around.

In other words, if you've (as an armed citizen) been robbed and are holding a bad guy at gunpoint, there's no doubt in your mind who the bad guy is. But when the cop shows up and everyone's got guns, it's sometimes hard to sort out who is a threat and who isn't.

Irving

12-11-2009, 21:56

I thought it was a given that you are much more likely to be shot by the police than a ccw holder. However it is just a numbers thing since there are so many more police responding to crimes than private citizens. Could you imagine if we had volunteer police like wr do fire fighters?

Posted from my Wii. heh