Quality difference among "high end" AR manufacturers?

[kpp80202]

After owning multiple old-school Bushmasters over the years, I keep telling myself that one of these days I'd like to buy a "high end" AR, which to me is a basic 16" LaRue, Noveske, Geissele, or Daniel Defense rifle in the $1800-ish range. For those of you with experience with these brands, is there really any significant quality difference? I've read about DD having better barrels than Geissele, and Geissele having better other parts than DD, but not much else. Please let me know your opinions, thanks! Also, if there are other brands that are "duty-ready/SHTF-worthy," let me know your thoughts on those, too.

[kidicarus13]

Let's get ready to RRUUMMBBLLLEEEEEE!

[kpp80202]

Let's get ready to RRUUMMBBLLLEEEEEE!

Crap, is this a Ford vs Chevy topic? If so I can take it down. No good will come of it...

[funkymonkey1111]

I'll drop the first smug comment--i don't know that $1,800 is "high end" at all.

[kpp80202]

I'll drop the first smug comment--i don't know that $1,800 is "high end" at all.

Ok, then “mid level”. (High end for me...)

[whitewalrus]

Crap, is this a Ford vs Chevy topic? If so I can take it down. No good will come of it...

Yeah for the most part it will turn into that. All the brands that you list are great and you would be happy with any of them.


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[Tim K]

I’ll agree that $1,800 isn’t precisely top shelf, but it’s not bargain basement by any stretch. I’ve not owned any of the brands the op mentioned, but I’ve shot a couple LaRue and DD rifles and I have a DD barrel that is surprisingly good.

OP, you might get better feedback if you tell us what qualities matter most to you. Are you after a certain level of accuracy, dead nuts reliability, minimized recoil impulse, perfect cosmetics, etc? To be perfectly honest, I’d spend those dollars building up a rifle from parts. The mystique of factory built guns is mostly BS. Mostly. Several of the best rifles I own were built by me. I do have one JP (one of several JPs) that is absolutely outstanding, perhaps the best AR I own. The others are just average.

If you’re newish to the game you might not even know what exactly to want. Until you’ve shot a truly outstanding rifle it’s hard to define or describe what “good” means. To my way of thinking, the order of priorities is as follows:

Reliability - it’s gotta go “bang” pretty regularly when I mash the trigger.
Accuracy- Anything less than about 1 MOA and I’m not interested.
Shootability - A made up word encompassing ergonomics and (importantly) recoil impulse. Trigger quality is a huge factor.
Durability- Everything you’re considering should be more than adequate, but it’s a nuanced discussion. For example, dig into JP SCS vs Tubb flatwire springs. Ugh.
Cosmetics - Damn well needs to look cool!

Short answer based on little more than intuition and limited experience with the brands you mentioned, LaRue or DD.

[kpp80202]

If you’re newish to the game you might not even know what exactly to want. Until you’ve shot a truly outstanding rifle it’s hard to define or describe what “good” means.

This pretty much sums it up. And it helps me reframe my question. Reliability is #1, then durability, then accuracy ( at least 1.5 moa), then shootability. The ARs I’ve owned all were reliable and accurate. I can’t comment on durability because they weren’t heavily used. I also can’t comment on shootability because I don’t know anything other than what I’ve used. So I guess at this point in need advice on shootability since I bet durability is implied with any AR at this level.

For background, I’ve been shooting for almost 40 years but have focused on handguns. I’ve owned several ARs, but all in the “basic” level, like early Bushmasters, Rock River, etc. I have owned $2000 plus pistols like the original Sig P210 and Les Baer and Ed Brown 1911s, but I honestly didn’t really think they were that much better - for me - than my existing slightly modified sub-$1,000 pistols, so I sold them all off. But with revolvers, I definitely perceived a difference with my current 1980s era Python (after buying and selling several to find the right one), vs my Pre-lock S&Ws (which I still really like), vs cheaper brands that did not make the cut due to their overall feel and trigger pulls. Like many of you, I collect/accumulate other things, and know the brands and rough price points where you can readily perceive a real difference, like with watches, knives, hand tools, etc. So I guess what I’m saying is I don’t know what I missing by not having tried a step up AR, and don’t know the price point where there is a clear step up. So I guess I’d like to see if any an $1,800-2,000 AR would be meaningfully different than an $800-1,000 AR in all the four factors Tim mentioned.

[ChickNorris]

You're welcome to shoot my rifle for a little custom context if you'd like. Lmk.

[ChadAmberg]

I bought a DD back before there was even a V1, so had it a long time. I've probably shot 15k+ out of it easily, I lost track quite a long time ago. It can still outshoot me, and has been 100% reliable. I even clean it almost every year!

[ray1970]

So I guess I?d like to see if any an $1,800-2,000 AR would be meaningfully different than an $800-1,000 AR in all the four factors Tim mentioned.

Others will disagree with me but when you?re spending money on something like a Noveske or Larue or whatever what you?re mostly paying for is the name. There are solid options for half the price depending what you want out of the rifle.

It?s probably kind of like your pistol comparison above. Sure a Les Baer or Wilson Combat 1911 is a great pistol but does it really offer you anything over a well tuned Colt or Springfield other than bragging rights or pride of ownership?

I prefer to assemble my own rifles so that I can pick and choose the components and features that suit my likes and needs but if I was buying a factory rifle I would be happy with a BCM or Colt or something similar.

[Great-Kazoo]

Well, since you asked. At this point in time. before the end of the year, an $1,800 ish price range AR will be anything. Providing they're not banned, again.

Anyway. Go talk to a few gun stores to see what they have inventory wise. As well as one or two of those competent FFL's who could build you one. To me it's the trigger, bbl and optics that make it perform. The most important item is the one behind the trigger. A proficient shooter with a base AR, can out perform a basic one with a $$$ unit. .

[Tim K]

Shootability for me is driven primarily by the recoil impulse. A rifle with a lightweight BCG, JP SCS, adjustable gas block, and long-for-barrel-length gas system is a real revelation to a lot of guys. Not only is overall recoil reduced, but when it's done right you can't feel the BCG moving. One of my JP's is perfectly tuned and the recoil impulse is almost indiscernible from a bolt gun. Minimizing the recoil impulse makes for faster follow up shots and improves your ability to spot your impacts.

Of course there's a trade off. Dang it. Lightweight operating systems will have less ability to pound through accumulated crud, or at least that's the theory. I've run guns totally filthy. Like disgustingly filthy with no problems.

[Irving]

I wasn't going to chime in because I don't know enough to be helpful, but how come no one has mentioned weight? Seems to me that a light weight gun is pretty comfortable to shoot and lug around. Since we're talking about ARs, there shouldn't be any concerns about recoil.

[SA Friday]

There is quite a list of companies and components that are considered high quality in the AR market, but good luck finding any of them right now. The different companies making really good guns is pretty extreme, well beyond what you listed and what has been discussed in this page already. Just the list of Zev Technology (previously Mega Arms) sub-contracted manufacturers haven't even been mentioned here and I would put all of them over a DD or LaRue for quality and duty use. SOLGW, Triarc, Hodge Defense are three off the top of my head that fall into this category. Additionally Sionics and BCM are both superior to DD and LaRue in overall quality. In some cases, it really comes down to the quality of individual parts. DD barrels are very good, so are many others. Microbest BCGs currently rule the roost for that part, Zev made uppers, lowers for the money are crazy nice with the best upper to lower fit in the industry along with thermal fit barrel mating uppers (BCM doe this also). geissele triggers, Hiperfire triggers, multiple buffer systems of exceptional reliability... Now, ask me how much of this is available at the moment? Very little. There are parts of near equitable quality available if you look crazy hard and be patient, but AR sales are insane right now. If you want something better than a Bushmaster, its doable but it really depends on where you want to go with the gun and how much patience you have for the gun/build.

[izzy]

My personal favorite is the LWRC. I did eventually shoot the rifling out of one of their barrels after ~70k rounds which I think is way more than you'll get out of most rifles. Weight is a factor for me, as mentioned, which is the only reason I'd put the HK rifle below the LWRC. Others I'd put on the list are LMT and KAC.