Posing a Gold Cup NM ammo question

[rl45acp]

I wasn’t sure whether to post here or in the ammo/reloading forum, but this one is general, so what the heck.

As I am quite new here, a tiny bit of back ground info per my 1911 past. I fired my first one at around age 8 or 9. It was my pops boony gun, he carried it every time we went afield. It was an original Colt made for the civilian market in the 40’s. Of course before he let me fire it, he made sure I could completely tear it down and reassemble it,….blind folded,….up hill…..both ways……in 26” of snow…..

But I digress. That started my love affair with the 1911. I have three 1911 style pistols now. I know I should have more, but there are too many other guns out there that need a good home (I know blasphemy!).

I just recently received my, new to me, Colt Series 70 Goldcup National Match. I’m not sure that the guide rod and recoil spring are stock. It has an integral recoil buffer on the rod, and what might be an unoriginal plunger tube. I have also heard that the barrel bushing in Gold Cups have the serial number stamped onto them, mine does not.

I have read that the Gold Cup were tuned/fitted to fire 200 gr SWC’s. So, should I only fire 200gr SWC’s through it, or am I okay feeding it 230gr RN? Is there a way for me to check the recoil spring rate at home (home built apparatus not out of the question, suggestions welcome)?

TIA,
Rob

[Graves]

The NM guns were designed with shooting the lighter target loads in mind. The problem (if you want full power hardball) as I understand is that they were sold with a 10# or 12# spring (can't remember) and had some meat removed from the rear of the slide. I wouldn't worry about trying to figure out what the spring you have in there right now as it more than likely needs to be replaced anyways. If you wanna shoot the heavier stuff exclusively, go with a 16# or 18# spring - they're cheap and easy to come by. Give Wolff Springs a gander.

[Bailey Guns]

I think the Gold Cup pistols all come stock (especially for a 70 series) with a standard GI guide rod setup.

Go to Brownell's and get a standard guide rod, a standard spring plug and a 16 - 18 lb spring (like Graves said). It'll just cost a few bucks and it'll make maintaining your gun much easier. And you can probably shoot anything you like through it.

I just talked to an elderly retired Navy man yesterday who lives in FL. He bought an old 1911 from me...a Colt made in 1915. He said he's had pretty much one of every type of 1911 ever made and his current collection is over 100 1911 pistols, almost all Colt military guns dating back to...1911. He was a fascinating man to talk to. He said in the 60s he had owned a Singer and a North American Arms...said he sold them both sometime in the mid 60s for a $1,000 to buy furnishings for his house and new bride after he got married. I can't even imagine what those two would be worth today.

Then he started talking about the old Harley's he's had...

Sorry for going off topic...he was just a neat old guy to talk to.

[10x]

A Series 70 GCNM has a standard recoil spring guide and a standard weight 16 lb recoil spring. You can fire normal 230 grain ball all you want using the 16 lb spring. I cannot tell you how many I have shot in my Gold Cups.

Some came with two springs, a 12 lb for extremely light loads as well as the 16 lb spring. The 12 lb spring is for powder puff hand loads.
Even a factory WW or Rem, etc, 185 SWC targert round will cycle the Golc Cup with 18 1/2 lb springs.

Get rid of the recoil buffer arrangement, you don't need it and those things can cause reliability problems.

I would suggest that you get a new 16 lb spring from Wolff, Brownells or a gun shop. Besides normal lubrication that is the best thing you can do for your Gold Cup.

The discussion about the slide being lightened applies to pre Series 70 Gold Cup National Match guns. Note that the box says Gold Cup National Match, but the slides on these guns say only National Match. The serial numbers on the frames have five digits followed by the NM letters, 12345NM.

Even with these guns using a 16 lb spring you can shoot 230 grain ball all you want. The rumor about cracked slides was just that. The lightened area is in the rear of the slide under the extractor, no where near the weakest area of the slide, the ejection port. I have never seen or even seen credible evidence of slides cracking on these guns. The only credible report that I have seen was of the slides being battered, not cracked, from shooting a lot of 230 grain ball with a 12 lb spring.

The Series 70 GCNM has a collet (or fingered) bushing. Colt did not stamp the bushings. Who ever told you that was thinking about US military built National Match 1911A1 USGI guns.

[SA Friday]

I guess I have a different opinion on the issue. If what you have in the gun runs reliably, shoot the gun. No need to change out the guide rod for stock parts unless your desire is to have the gun as stock as possible. I would take the buffer off though and see how it shoots without it. I'm not a buffer fan, but if they work in the gun and make is softer shooting, they're not necessarily a bad thing. You just have to change them out regularly.

As for ammo and recoil springs, I have a Colt Govt 5" Series 80 that I had a lot of work done to it and converted to a Series 70. I shoot it competitively on occasion in Single Stack Division USPSA. 230gr reloads are so fricken soft to shoot it feels like cheating. They are much softer than my 200gr reloads. I load for USPSA's major power factor requirements; (vel)bullet weight/1000=power factor. I shoot for around 170 pf, and the heavier bullet equates to less velocity needed. So, I find heavier bullets pushed with fast burning powders equate to much less recoil.

I run a 12.5lb recoil spring with both the 230 and 200 gr rounds. With basic target loads, a 12.5 or 14lb recoil spring will work just fine. The only reason to go heavier IMO is if you are shooting very hot loads with a difficult bullet profile to chamber. Hell, in my STI Edge I run a 10lb spring.

I've done my share of testing with Glocks, 1911's and 2011's in this area. Recoil springs come down to reliable ejection and feeding, and then tuning the gun with the load and the shooter. Everyone thinks about the slide moving back and the effects of the recoil spring, but the more important aspect of the equasion is the slide going forward at the strength of the recoil spring. You have to deal with the reciprocating mass of the slide at this point. Too much spring causes the gun to nose dive (takes longer to get back on target) as it chambers the next round and locks up if you are over sprung. Conversely, too little spring and your round won't chamber and lock.

Springs are cheap. Buy some springs of various weight and test it out. See what works and feels best for your shooting.

[SNAFU]

I'm probably wrong,but,never heard that the Gold Cup could only fire 200grn swc.
Have heard that firing full strength fmj constantly could damage the frame.
I believe that's due to the lighter recoil spring.

Just thinking the swc issue is a carry over of the old S&W 52?

[rl45acp]

Thanks you all. You all got me thinking a little more about this gem.

I wondered about the guide rod, but it almost functions perfectly. The guide rod has an integral buffer installed and I don’t think it comes off. I’ll try to attach a photo of it below. (first time, you know) She stove pipes on the last round; it’s an easy clear, but still a PIA, and most importantly, not right. That says to me that the slide isn’t cycling fully for the case to hit the ejector. Makes me also wonder if the buffer isn’t stopping the side too early, or more likely compressing the spring too tight. I am now going to “borrow” the stock rod, spring and plunger from my brothers Springfield and see how she shoots (although it looks like it might be January before I’ll be able to try it out, brrrrr (the new range opens in Januaryish)). I do reload and cast my own bullets, and I think I’ll add a 200gr SWC mold to my shopping cart. I won’t use the gun for defense, but I want it to be as accurate as possible.

Already I’m learning. And my non-gunny friends think I know about guns:

Nice to have a second opinion on the bushing and guide rod set up, and what’s stock, and what’s not.
I always wondered why one would buy a “set” of recoil springs for their ‘11’s. It never crossed my mind that one could help tune the gun to the shooter and load with springs. There is now a set in my “cart”
And some other things I have forgotten to write down. Oh well.Until the new springs show up I’ll just have to keep abusing the crap out of my Taraus, well I'd be doing that anyway.

Thanks again,
Rob

[10x]

The "stove pipe" on the last round is usually from insufficient extractor tension or a flaw in the extractor. The extractor is not controlling the empty. On earlier rounds the round in the mag keeps the empty up under the extractor. On the last round there is not the upward pressure.

[SA Friday]

You have some weirdness going on in those parts. I've never seen (and it could just be me) a barrel bushing like that; the plunger looks like it's been smashed in to work with the guiderod that looks too thin and that buffer appears to be permanent.

[Backinblackrifles]

The 70 series is a little diferant than other models they work until they break. What you posted is normal in a s70 it all needs to be replaced espescialy the barrel bushing the fingers were made of spring steel and held the barrel in by pressure they dont work the way they were disighned and that is why they were dropped the fingers tend too break of after so many rounds and will completely ruin the gun on the next shot. If you dont want a paper weight replace it all.

[rl45acp]

The gun has only been in my hands for about 50 rounds now, although I bought it from a good friend that I go shooting with a lot. He needed cash and a CC gun, so I traded my Kahr and some cash for it. I remember the day he brought it home, I said, when you decide to sell it, call my first. “Oh, I’ll NEVR sell this thing”.

I should reword my “stove pipe” comment. I know what a stove pipe is, and I should not have used that term. I should have said “upon attempting to eject the last empty case, the case is still attached to the extractor claw and the slide is locked open by the slide release”. So the slide is locked back like it should normally be, but the case hasn’t been removed/released from the extractor on most occasions. So, my thoughts were that the rounds below have been pushing the empties out (in agreement with 10X, just not a stovepipe). Extractor to tight, ejector to short, slide not recoiling fully? Like I said, only 50 rounds, I need to do more investigating with it

This is the first guide rod that I have seen built like this. I am not willing to get rid of the guide rod at this point, if nothing else I like the aesthetics of them. The plunger ID is matched to the OD of the guide rod, the dent is factory (not Colt factory, guide rod manufacture factory). My PT1911 has the same thing, the end of the recoil spring “threads” into the guide using that detent. I am still going to try my brothers spare Springer set up though.

I did a little poking around on the fingers breaking on the bushings. I never knew that that could be a potential problem. I read that some of these bushings were fitted incorrectly in the factory and that’s why they break among other things. I wonder how often this happens, is it 1 in 4000 guns made, 1 in 10? Is this possibly caused by using 230 gr rounds?

Well thanks again,
Rob

[Backinblackrifles]

I have seen quite a few of the fingers break off. It is a problem that just happens once you flex them so many times they just give five or six times it just killed the gun they get jammed in there and you cant get them out without cutting the slide off witch really sucks for what could have been an otherwise a very pricey piece. the guide rod and plunger is not so much a big deal but they where out much faster than a standard set up. if you whant to shoot hotter loads you might want to replaced them because they will start to flex and when metal starts flexing it is only a matter of time before it gives too. As far as it not ejecting the last round first thing I would do is check a spent case and see if the extractor is leaving a mark on the case if it is it probably is just losing spring tension and that is just a matter of just re bending it back. Either way you have a really nice shooter it is a match gun so it just needs a little more tlc than a G.I. or duty gun just give it a thorough cleaning and a good inspection after every trip checking for where, cracks, ect. and ENJOY!

[rl45acp]

You guys have got me way off topic now, I’m sorry. I started out just wanting an opinion on firing 200gr vs 230 grain in my GC.

Now you got me digging a bit more. Tonight I installed the guide rod, plunger, and spring from my Taraus (My abuser 1911), and took pics for you guys. It looks to me like the “original” guide rod from the colt (I know it’s not the original), is hindering the slide from recoiling fully.

Pictures are of the slide lock for slide position reference. Pic one is with the guide rod/spring/plunger that came with the gun. Pic two is the guide rod/spring/plunger installed from the Taraus.

There is a notable difference in distance between the installed parts. (I know that they aren’t from the same angle, but you try taking a picture while holding the slide back J )

BTW: Don’t worry all, I have decided to, at some point, replace the barrel bushing also, and hold onto the original for posterity. I have (recently thanks to you all) read that folks have not noticed an accuracy difference between the stock bushing, and a PROPERLY fitted replacement. As it is, the gun can probably out shoot me. Sounds like a fun project. (Don’t worry all, I am an aspiring watchmaker so fine tolerances and craftsmanship are understood. I will not butcher this fine weapon.) Just for fun, I will also mag flux the original bushing…….. I know some people. J

An odd side not on this, my pop took a NM barrel, and a stock bushing, and filed/cut fingers into the bushing, and used it in matches a long time ago. Since then the gun has had 10-20 thousand rounds through it, and still shoots very accurately. (I know, you don’t believe me)

And, NO, this will not be a duty gun, that’s why I have the Taraus. Or at least it used to be a Taraus. It’s a Taraus frame and slide, the guts are mostly Wilson and Bear. Did you all know that the frames and slides are made at the same plant that produces the Brazilian Springfield frames and slides? Of course you did, what am I thinking

RL
P.S. If the text looks buggered up, or small, I apologize. I am used to “composing” my posts with ms word as I can’t spell for $#!^, then cutting and pasting. I’ll figure it out soon. Bear with me, thanks.

[rl45acp]

P.S.S. The idiot marks are not from me. They are from the owner from before my buddy, and the gunsmith (that shall not be named) that he took it too for installtion of that stupid sear spring and plunger that the 70's come with (part 46 and 47 I think).

[10x]

Picture one-a shock buffer will reduce the length of recoil. This causes ejection and or feeding problems in some guns. This short cycle is a partial cause of the last round not ejecting.

The collet or finger bushings are a problem early in the life of the gun when tolerances/fitting was not proper from the factory. Otherwise they last a long time, 20,000-30,000 rounds, plus.