View Full Version : Partial Collapse of 12-story Condo Building in Miami
What a mess. Hard to believe something like this "just happens", but I guess our standard building codes prevent it from happening more often. Prayers go out to those folks.
Massive Search and Rescue Effort After Partial Collapse of Condo Building in Surfside (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/partial-building-collapse-in-surfside-prompts-massive-fire-rescue-response/ar-AALnz4m)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4oY-xcXIAIZ6EP?format=jpg&name=large
'Felt like an earthquake': Condo building partially collapses in Miami, spurring massive emergency response; at least 1 dead (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/felt-like-an-earthquake-condo-building-partially-collapses-in-miami-spurring-massive-emergency-response-at-least-1-dead/ar-AALnQPi)
https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AALoiOw.img?h=1080&w=1920&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f
BladesNBarrels
06-24-2021, 07:57
Salt air and concrete?
Was built in 1981. They're still not sure what may have caused it. That section of the building literally pancaked.
86569
Video of collapse:
https://twitter.com/wsvn/status/1408054046808805379
hollohas
06-24-2021, 09:50
This is nuts. That video is wild to see. Professional demolition crews would be hard pressed to create such a clean collapse. That building must have had some serious structural flaws.
Doesn't look to be that old. Possibly 1981
Video of collapse:
https://twitter.com/wsvn/status/1408054046808805379
WOW
BushMasterBoy
06-24-2021, 10:57
The rebar expands and cracks the concrete. They had to redo all the outside decks in the condo I lived in beachside Cocoa Beach. They replaced the rebar with coated rebar. I didn't need a alarm clock for months. At exactly 9AM the jackhammers would wake me. Living there was always a hassle. A high rise full of assholes basically. Some kid flushed his ball down the toilet, then the toilet started over flowing in my place. The maintenance guy was the only person who was cool. Then there were the hurricanes...
Looks like that might have been the same kind of construction, causing the same kind of failure as the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.
Note: I'm not implying the apartment building was bombed. I'm just saying the same "self supporting" design that caused the Murrah building to fail all the way up when the lower floors were compromised might be at work here.
O2
Looks like that might have been the same kind of construction, causing the same kind of failure as the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.
Note: I'm not implying the apartment building was bombed. I'm just saying the same "self supporting" design that caused the Murrah building to fail all the way up when the lower floors were compromised might be at work here.
O2
Yup. Lots of parking under this one.
funkymonkey1111
06-24-2021, 14:04
Looking at other stories on the news station's twitter feed, they were covering an unrelated sinkhole. Wonder if there was anything like that going on under the building?
Someone cut out a wall in their unit to open up the view from the kitchen..
battlemidget
06-24-2021, 14:50
The Citicorp building in NYC had a hidden flaw for years until some student figured it out.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_eye/2014/04/17/the_citicorp_tower_design_flaw_that_could_have_wip ed_out_the_skyscraper.html
There's actually bedrock under NYC, which is why the buildings can get so tall.
http://www.classichistory.net/archives/nyc-bedrock
now it sounds like it was known that the building was "sinking" for at least a couple of years. Built on or in an area that used to be wet lands. SO, settling over the years and finally a total collapse? If someone knew that the building had been settling/sinking, it sure smells like a lawsuit in the making.
I recall reading something about it sinking by 2mm. That's not like it's disappearing into a bog.
No matter what it was, there will be lawsuits.
Delfuego
06-25-2021, 09:48
I feel like we are turning into a 3rd world country.
I feel like we are turning into a 3rd world country.
Seems like stuff like this happen occasionally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnvGwFegbC8&ab_channel=TomScott
https://twitter.com/_rosiesantana/status/1407970894924992512
Video from inside one of the apartments that collapsed.
https://www.fox21news.com/news/the-phone-went-dead-husband-of-missing-colorado-woman-was-on-the-phone-with-his-wife-during-miami-building-collapse/
Stratton said he was speaking to his wife on the phone early Thursday morning, around 1:30 a.m.
?She described that the building was shaking and then?the phone went dead,? shared Stratton.
Salt air and concrete?
Very possible.
That is my 4th and 5th guess.
Some building that fell like this had salt water and concrete mix.
I read there's speculation about a sinkhole too. And that was 2mm per YEAR, they say about 3 inches total. I could be off on that, read it hours ago.
BushMasterBoy
06-25-2021, 12:33
The salt air is very humid there. A Galvanic reaction occurs to the rebar due to dissimilar metals mixed together, calcium and iron. Iron in the rebar and calcium in the concrete, the salt in the humid air makes an electrolyte. I think the rebar they replaced in the condos I lived in was coated in epoxy. They only replaced the outside decks above me. I was on the ground floor. My deck seemed OK.
Cocoa Beach Surf Company built a parking garage next to the condos. It was made of precast concrete beams with galvanized steel cables tensioned by giant fasteners(nuts). They trucked the beams in whole. The entire structure was settled on pylons pounded into the sand. I would park my car there during hurricane evacuations. The parking garage was always unscathed by the storms. The car was covered in a 1/4 inch of salt!
Aerial photo of where I lived in Cocoa Beach. Parking garage to the left of tennis courts and condo to the right. It is easy to see the precast concrete beams of the garage even from the air. Every time I returned from a hurricane evacuation, some buildings in the city were destroyed.
86583
Yeah, fuckabunchaFlorida - I've lived and worked there, no desire to ever do it again.
Aloha_Shooter
06-25-2021, 12:41
now it sounds like it was known that the building was "sinking" for at least a couple of years. Built on or in an area that used to be wet lands. SO, settling over the years and finally a total collapse? If someone knew that the building had been settling/sinking, it sure smells like a lawsuit in the making.
I recall reading something about it sinking by 2mm. That's not like it's disappearing into a bog.
No matter what it was, there will be lawsuits.
The other thing that happens is people willingly sign waivers when facts like this are disclosed at sale or lease. They often only care that the price or rent is cheaper and don't consider why or if they do understand why, they're happy to roll the dice figuring any disaster that happens will likely occur after they're gone. When it DOES occur, they then scream "I didn't know" and "someone needs to take care of me" -- and the leeches lawyers are more than happy to swoop in and start a class action lawsuit.
clodhopper
06-25-2021, 13:23
Yeah, fuckabunchaFlorida - I've lived and worked there, no desire to ever do it again.
same.
FTR, coated rebar fails far worse and usually far sooner than coated rebar. Because it rusts behind the coating anyway, it just ends up de-bonding from the entire application (the coating is bonded to the concrete, not the rebar, the rust debonds the coating) and then the rebar has no resistance to extraction forces at all. Uncoated just swells, but stays fully bonded.
It was a good idea in principle, but fails in execution because it is impossible to keep the coating from being damaged during install. Only stainless rebar (yes, it is a thing) actually prolongs the service life in high chloride ion environments.
ETA: That said, I doubt salt has anything to do with this collapse. It is most likely something geologic, such as a sinkhole as suggested or a number of other possibilities.
Delfuego
06-25-2021, 15:34
or a number of other possibilities.Hillary Clinton?
Hillary Clinton?
I had a wisecrack ready about the building having something on her but it's below the threshold of class, and I also like life.
Yeah, coated rebar is being phased out and banned in some situations, if you nick the coating during installation or if there is a pinhole during the manufacturing process the rebar can actually erode at an accelerated rate in a matter of months in one specific spot rather than a slow all over erosion that could takes decades or more.
There was a family right next to the collapse that got out... They said it seemed like the first floor (where they got out) had sunk 3-4 feet. Not counting on the accuracy of that too much (fish stories anyone?) But in any event, first hand accounts are pointing to geologic. Apparently climate change space surveys studying ground swell also had noted unusual settling in that specific spot, but failed to actually inform anyone since they were not studying buildings....
BushMasterBoy
06-26-2021, 10:37
I really doubt it was a sinkhole-global warming theory. The building just rotted from the inside. I have seen 20 year old beach side commercial buildings demolished because of this. The truth is coming out that the building needed major structural repairs and probably should have been condemned. You can see that the entire ocean side of the building collapsed. We will probably see more of this in the future. High rise condos on the beach is just a bad idea.
“Abundant cracking and spalling of varying degrees was observed in the concrete columns, beams, and walls,” Mr. Morabito wrote. He included photos of cracks in the columns of the parking garage as well as concrete crumbling — a process engineers refer to as “spalling” — that exposed steel reinforcements on the garage deck."
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/26/us/miami-building-collapse-investigation.html
Seems like the standard response from property owning corporations. Do nothing cause it costs money.
BushMasterBoy
06-26-2021, 11:34
The highest density condos I can think of is Galt Ocean Mile in Fort Lauderdale. These condos have everything including mini malls inside. I always got a weird feeling driving through there. Such high density living on the beach. They make the Miami Beach area look small.
Click on the picture in the link below to see the condos
https://janeshistorynook.blogspot.com/2013/02/fort-lauderdales-galt-mile-who-was.html
Salt and concrete do not mix well. Florida DOT leads the country in salt vs chloride research.
They have stopped the use of epoxy coating on rebar. You can slow the migration of chloride to the rebar by densifying the concrete with fly ash, metacaolin, aggregate gradation, silica fume, nano silica, ect.
Rusting is not the only concern with salts. A relatively new understanding of a reaction (calcium oxychloride) that causes a gel to form and expand when it freezes. Freezing of this gel is in the 50-60F range and causes damages similar to freezing & thawing. Given that this is Florida thier concrete is not air entrained so damage is greater as the gel has no where to expand. This causes map cracking and for chuncks of concrete to "spall" off. To prevent this reaction fly ash or other pozzolans can be used to consume the CaOH reaction byproduct from cement hydration. This reaction not only mitigates the reaction but also densifies the concrete. Most concrete in FL did not contain fly ash until a few years ago.
Sinkholes are always a possibility in Florida with its limestone bedrock. Raising ocean levels can contribute to new sinkholes and accelerate thier growth. Increased CO2 increases the carbonic acid in rain water which increases the dissolving of limestone.
BushMasterBoy
06-26-2021, 14:54
Building in Cocoa Beach collapsed in 1981. Engineer compares it in link below.
https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2021/06/25/orlando-engineer-notes-likely-construction-similarities-in-2-notable-collapses
BPTactical
06-26-2021, 17:13
Salt and concrete do not mix well. Florida DOT leads the country in salt vs chloride research.
They have stopped the use of epoxy coating on rebar. You can slow the migration of chloride to the rebar by densifying the concrete with fly ash, metacaolin, aggregate gradation, silica fume, nano silica, ect.
Rusting is not the only concern with salts. A relatively new understanding of a reaction (calcium oxychloride) that causes a gel to form and expand when it freezes. Freezing of this gel is in the 50-60F range and causes damages similar to freezing & thawing. Given that this is Florida thier concrete is not air entrained so damage is greater as the gel has no where to expand. This causes map cracking and for chuncks of concrete to "spall" off. To prevent this reaction fly ash or other pozzolans can be used to consume the CaOH reaction byproduct from cement hydration. This reaction not only mitigates the reaction but also densifies the concrete. Most concrete in FL did not contain fly ash until a few years ago.
Sinkholes are always a possibility in Florida with its limestone bedrock. Raising ocean levels can contribute to new sinkholes and accelerate thier growth. Increased CO2 increases the carbonic acid in rain water which increases the dissolving of limestone.
Was waiting for you to chime in on this, thanks.
I was remembering “rust bloom” or similar but didn’t want to say for sure.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/27/us/miami-building-investigation-clues.html
Buried in this lengthy report is the detail that a resident was on her balcony, on her phone with her husband and she told him that a hole just opened up near the outside pool. The call cut off shortly after that. She is MIA.
There was a family right next to the collapse that got out... They said it seemed like the first floor (where they got out) had sunk 3-4 feet. Not counting on the accuracy of that too much (fish stories anyone?) But in any event, first hand accounts are pointing to geologic. Apparently climate change space surveys studying ground swell also had noted unusual settling in that specific spot, but failed to actually inform anyone since they were not studying buildings....
I agree with that assessment based on the photos I've seen. In one areal shot you can see the pool decking is several feet higher than the surrounding area including where the collapsed building is located. The Colorado woman who was on the phone with her husband prior to and at the time of the collapse had mentioned a hole opening up near the pool.
ETA: I should have fully caught up on this thread before posting. [Coffee]
Further ETA: 86632
86633
Aloha_Shooter
07-01-2021, 15:17
The more that comes out on this, the more I see some massive lawsuits getting generated.
The more that comes out on this, the more I see some massive lawsuits getting generated.
Oh God yes. I have no doubt about that. The building management/owners are already probably trying to dissolve and move capital to protect themselves.
Good find GMan. I know there is no "official" answer but that is very clear. There probably isn't a building around that can withstand that. I hesitate to call it a sinkhole since it is so near the coast, but that is solid evidence of a sudden 3-4 elevation change. Buildings are not made with suspension.
The more that comes out on this, the more I see some massive lawsuits getting generated.
In a country that would have someone sue because their fast food burger was made incorrectly? No way!!!
funkymonkey1111
07-01-2021, 19:24
you people and your speculation. Uncle Joe thinks it was global warming
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-global-warming-surfside-condo-collapse
Uncle Joe drank too much eggnog on pre- July 4th party.
Aloha_Shooter
07-01-2021, 23:39
Oh God yes. I have no doubt about that. The building management/owners are already probably trying to dissolve and move capital to protect themselves.
In a country that would have someone sue because their fast food burger was made incorrectly? No way!!!
Oh, I think some of the residents looked past obvious deterioration because they didn't want to get a huge repair bill or didn't bother looking at the building inspection reports but yeah, you know the lawyers are smelling money. One of the victims WAS a New York lawyer. I think she'd just moved in there -- did she not ask for a home inspection before buying -- or maybe she just loved the view and chose to look past the report?
you people and your speculation. Uncle Joe thinks it was global warming
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-global-warming-surfside-condo-collapse
Uncle Joe thinks that gaseous release behind him is global warming and all the hair he's sniffed has just been him checking for methane and CO2 ...
Great-Kazoo
07-02-2021, 07:22
Oh, I think some of the residents looked past obvious deterioration because they didn't want to get a huge repair bill or didn't bother looking at the building inspection reports but yeah, you know the lawyers are smelling money. One of the victims WAS a New York lawyer. I think she'd just moved in there -- did she not ask for a home inspection before buying -- or maybe she just loved the view and chose to look past the report?
Uncle Joe thinks that gaseous release behind him is global warming and all the hair he's sniffed has just been him checking for methane and CO2 ...
Doesn't matter what city, or state. It's not uncommon. How many people moved near Stapleton THEN complained about the noise. Saying. i knew there was an airport. BUT.... didn't think it would be this noisy.
BushMasterBoy
07-02-2021, 10:32
Some simple sensors and a network system would have given the occupants time to evacuate. Now all the reports are coming out, one stating the swimming pool had been leaking for years. The leak was so bad bad the pump motor had to be replaced every two years to keep the garage from flooding. One tourist even filmed the garage flooding from the street, minutes before the collapse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK-Fq9tKrrQ
No chance of rescue. Recovery only now.
Aloha_Shooter
07-02-2021, 17:54
Some simple sensors and a network system would have given the occupants time to evacuate. Now all the reports are coming out, one stating the swimming pool had been leaking for years. The leak was so bad bad the pump motor had to be replaced every two years to keep the garage from flooding. One tourist even filmed the garage flooding from the street, minutes before the collapse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK-Fq9tKrrQ
The swimming pool was leaking for years, the pump had to replaced every 2 years to keep the garage from flooding ... sounds to me like the residents had years of warning. I feel bad for everyone involved but it sure sounds like that situation was broadcasting itself for a long time coming.
BushMasterBoy
07-04-2021, 20:00
They are going to use explosives and demolish the rest of it. I bet if Biden was under the rubble, they wouldn't do it.
Aloha_Shooter
07-04-2021, 23:17
They are going to use explosives and demolish the rest of it. I bet if Biden was under the rubble, they wouldn't do it.
Of course they would -- perfect excuse to advance Kamala to the center seat.
Best forensic breakdown of the event that I've seen so far:
http://youtu.be/PEPyE2h6P4k
https://youtu.be/PEPyE2h6P4k
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