View Full Version : The New Wave of Double Stack Micro Compacts
I had just become interested in sub compacts and other concealed carry size pistols (Shield, EC9s, G43) when the first "micro high cap" P365 came out, which was soon followed by the Hellcat. Curious if the early adopters who transitioned to the P365 or Hellcat plan to move to the latest crop of designs (Shield Plus, Max 9, GX4 and possibly future ones) for any perceived incremental improvements, or if you won't make a change until some HUGE upgrade in capability or performance shows up.
Heck. I?m still a Glock 26 guy. Guess I must be old school.
G26 was the first concealed carry pistol I bought--for the capacity over single stacks. But now its hard to justify carrying it when a slim P365 is on the table. While the GX4 seems to offer a lot at a great price point, and the Max 9 has great sights and OSP cut standard, I don't think its enough for me to upgrade. I will stick to the 365 until some big increase in a critical metric comes along to justify another change. An inch cut in length, a tenth of an ounce drop in weight, or even fiber optic or red dot sights is not enough for me right now.
encorehunter
07-29-2021, 09:25
I recently changed from a Kahr cw9 to a Hellcat. I much rather prefer the Hellcat now. Going from 7 to 13 was well worth it in my mind. The fit to my hand is about the same.
.455_Hunter
07-29-2021, 13:17
I guess carrying a 5-shot snub is only for squares these days.
Bailey Guns
07-29-2021, 14:42
I just picked up a Max 9. Pretty nice gun. I've bought several of the new crop of Rugers in the last 6 months.
I also bought some Shield 15 round mags for my 43X. Took 2 weeks of sitting partially loaded before I could squeeze 15 rounds into them. Haven't tried them for reliability yet. I've heard mixed reviews. We'll see.
hurley842002
07-29-2021, 16:32
I just picked up a Max 9. Pretty nice gun. I've bought several of the new crop of Rugers in the last 6 months.
I also bought some Shield 15 round mags for my 43X. Took 2 weeks of sitting partially loaded before I could squeeze 15 rounds into them. Haven't tried them for reliability yet. I've heard mixed reviews. We'll see.I've got 3 of the SA15 mags, zero issues in the 43x I had, still need to run them in the newly acquired 48, don't foresee any hiccups. 48 with SA15 mags, basically a slim G19, I'm digging it so far.
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hurley842002
07-29-2021, 16:34
I guess carrying a 5-shot snub is only for squares these days.To each his own, not a bad option, I just feel there are better options in 2021...
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whitewalrus
07-29-2021, 16:55
I guess carrying a 5-shot snub is only for squares these days.
Pentagons maybe.
Think wheel guns went out of vogue a while ago for defensive shooting choices. But they have their place.
Bailey Guns
07-29-2021, 17:14
Nothing wrong with a revolver if that's what you like to shoot.
If all the specs, weight, size, etc. are in line, I'm really happy to see a new generation of concealed carry.
If it's all the same as I currently carry, not so much.
Looking forward to reviewing this.
I recently picked up a pre-owned unfired Shield Plus just because the slight difference in the grip fits me so much better than the original Shield or the Sig 365 XL I had. I added the HD night sights. I love revolvers and will now and then carry my 3" S&W 64 NY-1 too, never did really like J frames. I colder times with a jacket or similar covering garment it's a 1911. The Plus conceals excellently for me with just a loose t-shirt or untucked button up shirt.
https://i.postimg.cc/N0K32Vh5/9D86A55F-BB0E-4B98-BDCA-A91D3CD28ABA.jpg (https://postimg.cc/qtdb91vT)
https://i.postimg.cc/zvWKHbhS/0DFCB1B8-5689-40D5-9480-BC45F4AD0045.jpg (https://postimg.cc/fSzJ6bBJ)
Zundfolge
07-30-2021, 22:06
I'm still waiting on a .40 version of the P365.
No plans to move on from my P365.
.455_Hunter
08-01-2021, 10:14
To each his own, not a bad option, I just feel there are better options in 2021...
Think wheel guns went out of vogue a while ago for defensive shooting choices. But they have their place.
Based on my own experiences during 30 years of defensive carry and personal risk assessments, I have two primary concerns with the latest carry guns:
- I refuse to be armed with a weapon that doesn't have either a full-stroke, full-weight DA trigger, or a positive manual safety (stiff with strong detents). Carrying a gun with a "great trigger" that has an enhanced potential for AD/ND is a NO-GO, regardless of training or other equipment crutches. The higher capacity guns combined with the P290RS, Rohrbaugh or 3914DAO action would be interesting, but unavailable due to striker fetishism.
- I also like the positive nature of a recessed heel magazine release or a paddle system. The chance of inadvertently activating a standard or extended mag side release far excced needing a John Wick fantasy-grade reload.
A high-capacity, sub-compact combo of the above doesn't seem to currently exist.
I am an equal opportunity defensive when it comes to firearms (revolver and semi), but the J-frame (or similar) still has a lot going for it with regards to safety, ease of use, reliability and effectiveness for real world daily concealment. Are there scenarios where a citizen might be outgunned? Yes, but their are also scenarios where the lastest high capacity striker special shits the bed, in more ways than one.
I recently picked up a pre-owned unfired Shield Plus just because the slight difference in the grip fits me so much better than the original Shield or the Sig 365 XL I had. I added the HD night sights.
Grip girth is what delayed my interest in concealed carry handguns. I just didn't like the feel of a slim grip in my hands. Now that their are double stack concealed carry guns (even if they are slimmer than full size duty pistols), I am much happier with them. The Hellcat feels thicker than the 365 to me, but not enough to make the switch.
Based on my own experiences during 30 years of defensive carry and personal risk assessments, I have two primary concerns with the latest carry guns:
- I refuse to be armed with a weapon that doesn't have either a full-stroke, full-weight DA trigger, or a positive manual safety (stiff with strong detents). Carrying a gun with a "great trigger" that has an enhanced potential for AD/ND is a NO-GO, regardless of training or other equipment crutches. The higher capacity guns combined with the P290RS, Rohrbaugh or 3914DAO action would be interesting, but unavailable due to striker fetishism.
- I also like the positive nature of a recessed heel magazine release or a paddle system. The chance of inadvertently activating a standard or extended mag side release far excced needing a John Wick fantasy-grade reload.
A high-capacity, sub-compact combo of the above doesn't seem to currently exist.
I am an equal opportunity defensive when it comes to firearms (revolver and semi), but the J-frame (or similar) still has a lot going for it with regards to safety, ease of use, reliability and effectiveness for real world daily concealment. Are there scenarios where a citizen might be outgunned? Yes, but their are also scenarios where the lastest high capacity striker special shits the bed, in more ways than one.
I too have graduated to carrying a gun safely, rather than for the immediate discharge. I will take the time penalty when I actually need to deploy it, in the favor of my personal safety, as I am carrying it all the time.
What I am wondering is if I am doing this in the best way (safety foremost, quick and readily available deployment), or not.
Currently I carry a striker fired pistol, without a mechanical safety, but with various trigger safeties, etc. But meanwhile, there is a striker, ready and waiting to hit the bullet.
So my solution, is to carry, unchambered. If and when I need it, I will have to chamber a bullet.
Is this okay, or are there better options available, that achieve the same level of safety, with better performance/availability?
Would a J-Frame be better, etc.
It's just fine, until the time you are alerted to the need for drawing your pistol by taking a knife or a bat to the arm, or you have to hold a door open while dragging someone out of the line of fire, or hold a door open while returning fire, or etc etc etc.
I'm starting to see the difference, where a J-Frame, can be perfectly safe, and then put into motion with one-hand, versus the two hands it takes to chamber a bullet with a striker fired pistol.
I don?t judge others for their choices but for me I have a preference for simplicity. Anything I carry needs to be deployed with one hand and if I want it to fire I just want to pull the trigger. No manipulating a slide, no taking some manual safety off, etc.
Modern firearms by design are inherently safe to carry fully loaded. Lack of attention or complacency when handling the firearm is what leads to someone letting a round fly unintentionally.
To touch on what Irving mentioned, if you are suddenly and unexpectedly engaged by an assailant you might find it difficult to free up both hands to load your gun while you are grappling with the guy.
I do understand that argument, and carried my striker fired pistol, chambered, for a very long while. But it tends to wear on you. Plus I carry Ruger, not Glock. Glock has a lot of patents that I don't think Ruger has, and I am not sure they are quite as safe (but they probably are.)
The peace of mind that I am afforded by knowing that there is no direct relationship between that bullet and my body, is important to me.
I upgraded from a P238 7 round capacity 380 to 365XL 13 round capacity in 9mm and love it. I got the no safety version and carry chambered. If I need it don't want to screw around with trying to rack the slide. If your not comfortable with that then still better to carry something than nothing at all.
I do understand that argument, and carried my striker fired pistol, chambered, for a very long while. But it tends to wear on you. Plus I carry Ruger, not Glock. Glock has a lot of patents that I don't think Ruger has, and I am not sure they are quite as safe (but they probably are.)
The peace of mind that I am afforded by knowing that there is no direct relationship between that bullet and my body, is important to me.
How does it wear on you...
I think there's either in some cases people don't shoot enough to be truly comfortable around the tool or just have a mindset to be carrying.
Don't get me wrong I don't advocate throwing a gun loose in the pocket, but secure in a iwb holster, the only real conceivable problem is being careless upon unholstering. And if you are clumsy, then having a safety isn't going to prevent someone from making the oopsie they are afraid of.
ManOnTarget
09-05-2021, 09:10
I Carry the 365, normal size, with a safety. I have big hands and was a little nervous that the safety would be hard to manipulate. Turns out it is nice and large and easy for me to work. And as far as timing and speed goes, if you train with it then a ms won?t slow you down at all. Most of the fastest idpa/uspsa guys are using 2011s or other sa guns with a large manual thumb safety. They?re still fast?..
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How does it wear on you...
I think there's either in some cases people don't shoot enough to be truly comfortable around the tool or just have a mindset to be carrying.
Don't get me wrong I don't advocate throwing a gun loose in the pocket, but secure in a iwb holster, the only real conceivable problem is being careless upon unholstering. And if you are clumsy, then having a safety isn't going to prevent someone from making the oopsie they are afraid of.
This is one of the things I like about my Walther PPS. I put my thumb on the rear cover plate when holstering IWB. If anything like my cover garment grabs the trigger on the way in the holster, the striker will move back to the hole in the cover plate against my thumb and let me know that there's a problem...before there's a problem.
mattiooo
10-07-2021, 11:45
I'm going to jump in here as I've been pocket carrying a PPS M2 for years anytime I'm not carrying something larger (currently a PPQ Q4 with RMR and TLR-1 or an HK P2000 with TLR-7). I love the pistol but, I really wanted to have a red dot on it, and didn't love it enough to spend double the price of the gun to mill out the slide. On top of that, adding 4 rounds to my flush fit mag and 6 rounds to the backup mag was really appealing. But barring that, I would still feel very comfortable continuing to carry it.
Last night I pulled the trigger and ordered the Hellcat OSP and a Holosun 507Kx2 plus a Nightstick light/laser made for the Hellcat. I didn't particularly want a laser, but the options for the Hellcat lights were pretty limited. I was awful close to getting the Shield Plus, but I believe all my carry pistols should have a light, and the Shield didn't have a front rail. If it had a rail, I was going to go that way for sure. I know there is a lot of debate about pistol-mounted lights versus handheld lights, but for me, it's pretty easy. I had a stroke 6 years ago, and I have some residual issues, including balance and left side weakness. I don't trust my left hand in a stressful situation.
How does it wear on you...
I think there's either in some cases people don't shoot enough to be truly comfortable around the tool or just have a mindset to be carrying.
Don't get me wrong I don't advocate throwing a gun loose in the pocket, but secure in a iwb holster, the only real conceivable problem is being careless upon unholstering. And if you are clumsy, then having a safety isn't going to prevent someone from making the oopsie they are afraid of.
It wears on me that I am relying on a manufacturer of guns to tell me it is safe to carry this loaded, chambered, striker fired, gun, on my person. This is basic buyer beware type behavior, and since I cannot prove to myself that I am 100% safe in doing this, I choose to carry unchambered.
There are also "oopsie" moments, etc.
The way I carry, neither of those cases will happen to me, and like someone above said, I still am carrying, if not with immediate availability
I picked up a Shield Plus a few months ago (have carrried a Shield for years already). I haven't transitioned to carrying the Plus yet . . . but plan to. Supposed to be able to use all the same holsters with it. I do have the safety on the Shield I carry and did get the Plus with safety. It's a really unobtrusive saftey that's still easy enough to manipulate (but you'd have to work at it to intentionally engage it if off). I'm used to safeties on some other guns I have, so it's second nature to work with it.
Just personal preference. I like the added level of protection against "oopsies" with it. Sweeping the safety on drawing it just something I'm used to. I totally get that others don't like or want that. Whatever works for you. Love the feel of the Plus and the added capacity. Trigger is better than my stock Shield, although I swapped into the Apex for it so the trigger I have on current Shield is really nice, too.
Seamonkey
10-12-2021, 19:04
I started with a Colt Detective snub (and still do depending on weather/clothing) then a G26 about 10 years ago once I gained experience with semi-automatics. Took a class to learn the basics then range time to get comfortable. Went to the G19 because the G26 pinches my pinky where the magazine meets the frame.
Recently purchased a Hellcat. I had no plans to purchase and was actually looking for a .22 with a better trigger when the clerk suggested I try it. [Bang] There's a lip on that part of the Hellcat frame that my finger sits on with either the 11 or 15 round mags and no pinching. I was surprised how slim it feels for a double stack and like how it fits my hand.
It wears on me that I am relying on a manufacturer of guns to tell me it is safe to carry this loaded, chambered, striker fired, gun, on my person. This is basic buyer beware type behavior, and since I cannot prove to myself that I am 100% safe in doing this, I choose to carry unchambered.
There are also "oopsie" moments, etc.
The way I carry, neither of those cases will happen to me, and like someone above said, I still am carrying, if not with immediate availability
My full feelings would break forum rules, but suffice to say, there is a lot of cops, security, and otherwise armed people that would get a good laugh about this. Maybe guns are small enough part of your life you can't trust yourself or believe in some pretty big leaps in mechanical failures. I think it's one thing to argue wanting a safety and I let those go, carrying unchambered....
Oh, I must have missed another one of these debates about safely carrying weapons.
I fully support everyone doing whatever makes them comfortable regardless of what I think.
I also know the best safety is the one between your ears and it never surprises me to see people who weren?t blessed with things like common sense or the ability to pay attention to what they?re doing.
colorider
10-14-2021, 10:17
Here’s my personal opinion. Carrying a firearm and drawing it safely and getting your shots on target goes FAR BEYOND a basic or intro to CCW class. It’s a skill set that must be learned and practiced as part of your life.
Holstering the firearm safely is also a major part of this as well.
My full feelings would break forum rules, but suffice to say, there is a lot of cops, security, and otherwise armed people that would get a good laugh about this. Maybe guns are small enough part of your life you can't trust yourself or believe in some pretty big leaps in mechanical failures. I think it's one thing to argue wanting a safety and I let those go, carrying unchambered.... Compared to people that are using guns as a tool, every day, yes, guns are a small part of my life. However, I carry guns every day. Can you not find a balance between someone who is using guns as an active tool, in their day to day job, and someone that is using guns as a form of self defense?
Bailey Guns
10-14-2021, 20:17
Carry your gun in the condition (ie: loaded chamber or unloaded chamber) you want it to be in in the event you're suddenly and violently attacked. If that means an unloaded chamber, good luck.
Compared to people that are using guns as a tool, every day, yes, guns are a small part of my life. However, I carry guns every day. Can you not find a balance between someone who is using guns as an active tool, in their day to day job, and someone that is using guns as a form of self defense?
Sure there's a difference, but unless you are a take the gun out on special occasions and otherwise a closet/bedside safe queen, I find carrying unchambered practically negligent. (I hate safeties as well but at least they are pretty negligible slow down with practice) Racking before being in the game not only costs you crucial time in an appreciable quantity, it is a liability in a sense because now if it does make the difference, the threat has another weapon (especially if you were drawing against someone with a knife or something). Watch Policeactivity video's and the like (raw bodycam type footage w/ out commentary) Not all of those situations are applicable, but there's enough that demonstrate having both hands free could be questionable especially if someone's in your face already.
It's no skin off my back at the end of the day, but my frustration is out of concern for those doing that potentially costing themselves. I think if you carry you should be able to have the confidence and attentiveness to not have a ND, and if still concerned, opt for a gun with a easily swept safety.
How are you carrying your knife?
Carry your gun in the condition (ie: loaded chamber or unloaded chamber) you want it to be in in the event you're suddenly and violently attacked. If that means an unloaded chamber, good luck.
The likely hood that I will be suddenly and violently attacked, is small. Will I survive that first attack, maybe. Will I be able to access my gun, maybe.
It's for sure not a great solution, but neither is being attacked suddenly and violently.
Bailey Guns
10-15-2021, 01:07
That is likely the worst example of mindset I've ever seen. You're right insofar as the likelihood of you, personally, being attacked. It's pretty rare. But it happens to someone every single day. And when it does it almost always happens quickly. If you don't believe that there are thousands of YouTube videos out there to prove it's true.
Seamonkey
10-15-2021, 08:59
It wears on me that I am relying on a manufacturer of guns to tell me it is safe to carry this loaded, chambered, striker fired, gun, on my person. This is basic buyer beware type behavior, and since I cannot prove to myself that I am 100% safe in doing this, I choose to carry unchambered.
There are also "oopsie" moments, etc.
The way I carry, neither of those cases will happen to me, and like someone above said, I still am carrying, if not with immediate availability
IMO your "relying on a manufacturer" concern is addressed by the multitude of external resources available from reliable sources. Search the interwebs for your "specific model" "reliability" "safety" "torture test". Same with ammunition, plenty of independent research has been conducted on the major brands, grain, and how the bullet performs - expansion/penetration - to help you make an educated decision.
IMO "oopsie" moments are always caused by the human. afaik modern firearms do not randomly discharge on their own. Training, practice, treating the firearm with the respect it deserves go a long way preventing "oopsie". Same with motor vehicles. No amount of mechanical safeties can compensate for the distracted human.
The likely hood that I will be suddenly and violently attacked, is small. Will I survive that first attack, maybe. Will I be able to access my gun, maybe.
It's for sure not a great solution, but neither is being attacked suddenly and violently.
This is the exact same argument for why you shouldn't carry at all.
Great-Kazoo
10-15-2021, 15:05
I'm starting to see the difference, where a J-Frame, can be perfectly safe, and then put into motion with one-hand, versus the two hands it takes to chamber a bullet with a striker fired pistol.
WTF are you or anyone doing carrying an unchambered gun?
It wears on me that I am relying on a manufacturer of guns to tell me it is safe to carry this loaded, chambered, striker fired, gun, on my person. This is basic buyer beware type behavior, and since I cannot prove to myself that I am 100% safe in doing this, I choose to carry unchambered.
There are also "oopsie" moments, etc.
The way I carry, neither of those cases will happen to me, and like someone above said, I still am carrying, if not with immediate availability
It's called training. 1-3 trips a year to the range . You might as well carry a knife and mase.
The likely hood that I will be suddenly and violently attacked, is small. Will I survive that first attack, maybe. Will I be able to access my gun, maybe.
It's for sure not a great solution, but neither is being attacked suddenly and violently.
99.9% of the people interviewed after an incident say. YOU KNOW, I never thought something like that could happen (insert: school, home, neighborhood, shopping etc) here.
I guess carrying a 5-shot snub is only for squares these days.
I carry a 3" Colt King Cobra, nothing like 6 rds of jhp's ruining ones day. When i fell like it's a wheel gun day
Here’s my personal opinion. Carrying a firearm and drawing it safely and getting your shots on target goes FAR BEYOND a basic or intro to CCW class. It’s a skill set that must be learned and practiced as part of your life.
Holstering the firearm safely is also a major part of this as well.
Holstering a gun safely is as important. If not more than the ability to draw from it.
It's the perfect storm for an unexpected discharge. Or dropping it, or a number of other things. A good quality holster is as important as the choice of the gun you carry.
Holstering a gun safely is as important. If not more than the ability to draw from it.
It's the perfect storm for an unexpected discharge. Or dropping it, or a number of other things. A good quality holster is as important as the choice of the gun you carry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_kzOJJ54PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_kzOJJ54PM
I don't know why I thought of Mr. Microwave to the face, but I did. So many people do a sympathy squeeze, I'm surprised he didn't. Trigger discipline and muzzle discipline as we all know are the biggest factors that keep us from dying from our own stupid's.
Thanks everyone for your feedback.
I think you are right that I need more training and knowledge on the safety of modern day guns.
Vic Tory
10-19-2021, 23:11
This has been an interesting thread.
If you're unsure about your abilities, please sign up for some additional training. (Many ranges will allow you to practice drawing and firing ... and holstering ... if a qualified Instructor is working with you.)
Lastly, with the cost and availability of ammo as it is, still be sure and get to the range. One hour of productive training is still better than not going at all.
hollohas
10-28-2021, 20:07
I carried a Kimber Ultra Carry II for a long time. I tired a Bodyguard 380 for a bit but always felt it was too small. I was then an early adopter of the P365 and have carried it every single day since. Frickin love the gun. I've put 1,000s through it and the only issues I've had were some of the original mags causing sporadic failures of the slide not locking back. Fixed with new mags. I carry in hard kydex IWB and am extremely confident that carrying that way isn't an accident risk.
I have no intention of upgrading to a newer crop of micro. I may upgrade my current p365 with a cool new slide or something at some point, but no other carry gun has me interested.
My favorite pistols are 1911, but the P365 just works better with daily office attire for me than even the officer's size 1911.
rock_castle
01-02-2022, 18:39
I've run the gamut. Went from Shield to G26 to P365 to Hellcat to Shield Plus. Think the Shield Plus is here to stay although never say never, right? the Shield Plus is just a better shooter for me than the P365 and Hellcat. The slightly longer grip helps.
YMMV. All are solid CCW choices.
I got a Shield Plus to replace my original Shield before the new year. The increased capacity and reversible mag release were huge selling points. I'm a big guy and for whatever reason the Shields fit me where other guns this size get lost in my grip or aren't comfortable at all. Obviously that's a huge preference thing. I put on some new sights last weekend and a couple extra mags arrived today. I also filed down that super aggressive grip texture on the frame and the magazines. Who thought that was a good idea for a carry gun? Once I get it to the range I'll start wearing it.
I do have a question for other owners. Is this thing reliable with all 13 rounds loaded? It seems really tight. That could mean only loading 12 but that's still really great for a gun this size.
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