Pistol or SBR....dunno all the laws [emoji848][emoji848]

[bigdlebowski22]

So, I just found you cannot use the pistol ar's the same as you can a ar15 rifle. Disclaimer....Apologies in advance, I'm still quite new to the different laws and noone ever taught me about em growing up so as you read on in this post you'll see my "inner noob" coming out. With that out of the way, I've discovered the pistol ar's I'm looking at cannot be used as a shouldered weapon because it effectively "redesigns" the ar pistol as a short barreled rifle. I had never heard this till today and I'm looking at some pistol ar's but now I'm concerned that I might get myself in trouble for something I know nothing about (law wise anyways). I thought the pistol version could be used PDW style basically, even training in the way Rhett Newmayer (gun enthusiast on YT) shows without shouldering the ar pistol but like I said now I'm concerned because there's certain possible laws not only in Colorado but also with the ATF that I might not have seen or heard yet so I'm reaching to ALL for ANY information, links, sites, etc etc that could help me avoid unintentionally even accidentally breaking any possible laws. Also curious if I should just register an ar pistol as an SBR, buy the stamp, and avoid the headache of possibly breaking ar pistol laws. I will continue to research more and more even after I write this but I would still like ya'lls advice. Thanks all!! Have a great week!! [emoji1][emoji106]

-Big D

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[Irving]

You know Rhett posts here occasionally?

I'm kind of on the other side of the enthusiast hill, meaning I stopped deep diving on the laws, but I'm under the impression that the ATF changes their rulings like I change socks. I've yet to hear of anyone, ever, getting into trouble for shouldering a pistol. I'll let other's chime in to better educate.

[00tec]

This should help


https://youtu.be/8nfCyhOX42g

[DenverGP]

pistol ar's I'm looking at cannot be used as a shouldered weapon because it effectively "redesigns" the ar pistol as a short barreled rifle.


They actually backed off that bit of stupidity (obviously shouldering it doesn't redesign jack shit).

That said, there are pending rules the ATF wants to push out that will render most AR pistols into SBRs, which would require a tax stamp.

As for if you should get an ar pistol or SBR, I didn't want to deal with the registration aspect of SBR (think you are supposed to file paperwork if you move it across state lines, etc), and didn't want to give the ATF another fucking penny of my money. Also if you like technicalities, you can keep an loaded AR pistol in a vehicle, but you can't keep a loaded rifle (SBR included) in a vehicle (I think related to poaching / hunting rules).

I shoot my AR pistol fairly frequently (less so since ammo prices jumped), and I've never had anyone check to make sure the brace wasn't touching my shoulder.



Also curious if I should just register an ar pistol as an SBR, buy the stamp, and avoid the headache of possibly breaking ar pistol laws.

If you are going to SBR it, skip the pistol brace crap and get a real stock. Can't imagine why someone would register an SBR and still put a half-assed wanna-be stock on it.

[Irving]

You can also hunt big game with a pistol, but not an SBR.

[bigdlebowski22]

Thanks to all again!! The advice is appreciated!!

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[bigdlebowski22]

This should help


https://youtu.be/8nfCyhOX42gThat actually made it sooooooo confusing and thus even more concerning...

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[00tec]

That actually made it sooooooo confusing and thus even more concerning...

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That is actually how they function

[bigdlebowski22]

That is actually how they functionI understand, the video itself was VERY confusing really considering most of the guns looked identical unless I missed something..I must've missed something...

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[DenverGP]

I understand, the video itself was VERY confusing really considering most of the guns looked identical unless I missed something..I must've missed something...

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Thats the exact point. That video was made to highlight just how stupid / arbitrary the ATF rules are.

All of this (what is legal vs illegal regarding AR pistols vs SBRs including the possible upcoming rules) can change very easily, without any actual laws being passed.

The ATF ruled bump stocks legal. Then they ruled them illegal machine guns. They ruled pistol braces legal, then said they were illegal if you shouldered them, then said they were legal, and are now planning to say they are unregistered SBRs...

The ATF makes law abiding citizens criminals every time they change the arbitrary rules.

[Ah Pook]

I am no expert, so please take what I say as a laymen.

About 4 years ago, I was in a TN gun shop drooling at the "free state" options. They had several short barrel AR platforms. Not knowing any better, I asked if they were rifles or pistols. The response was, these are considered "other" lowers. That meant they were neither until built. Once built, as a rifle, it can not be converted to a pistol. As an "other" or "rifle" lower, I could buy and carry home. As a "pistol" I had to send it to a CO FFL.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Great-Kazoo]

I am no expert, so please take what I say as a laymen.

About 4 years ago, I was in a TN gun shop drooling at the "free state" options. They had several short barrel AR platforms. Not knowing any better, I asked if they were rifles or pistols. The response was, these are considered "other" lowers. That meant they were neither until built. Once built, as a rifle, it can not be converted to a pistol. As an "other" or "rifle" lower, I could buy and carry home. As a "pistol" I had to send it to a CO FFL.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Other can go either way. So they require you to transfer to an FFL. Most, if not all ffl's, will not sell a stripped lower to anyone under 21, as well.

[SA Friday]

In 2014, a motorcycle cop from Greenwood Village wanted to carry a firearm in his saddle bag that gave him rifle capabilities. He discussed this with a local gun store and they came up with a very short pistol with a foldable brace that would fit in the saddle bag and not require a tax stamp. The Greenwood village police chief denied the use of the gun as he believed it met the definition of an SBR. The Greenwood Village Sgt wrote the ATF for clarification hoping to change the Chief's mind. The subsequent ATF opinion letter resulted in the "can't shoulder it" or it's "remanufacturing". The word remanufacturing was specifically used as it's the only way ATF had to try to incorporate it into the 1934 National Firearms act which doesn't have a shred of law in it stating this. after multiple clarifications from manufacturers, the ATF finally relented and from a clarification letter opinion letter for SB Tactical, relented on the "shouldering remanufacturing" stance. The ATF subsequently have muddied the waters some more recently by proposing a points system in some crazy 30 +/- opinion letter on how to determine if a firearm falls into an acceptable format to be a pistol. It's some crazy shit. It hasn't been approved or implemented. We aren't sure what they are going to do, but it's out there just lingering. I know exactly how this got all started as I know the Greenwood Village Sgt and I know the local gun store where it started.

There are four configurations a basic AR can take, rifle, pistol, short barrel rifle, and any-other-weapon. All of these definitions are available on a basic google search. They are defined based on the legal definitions found in the National Firearms Act.

AR lowers are sold under three categories; long gun, pistol, or other. 'Other' is a lower that that hasn't been defined as a rifle or pistol yet as it hasn't been mated to a barrel yet. The NFA defines the difference as 16" and longer barrel is a rifle, under 16" barrel is a pistol or SBR or AOW. Rifle's cannot be converted to a pistol. It's a revision from the 1968 Gun Control Act to prevent someone under 21 but over 18 purchasing a rifle and then converting it to a pistol. The GCA regulated pistol sales to 21 and older, and rifles to 18 and older. Fucking cool, right... NO FFL can legally sell an 'Other' to someone under 21. ALL AR lowers sold unmated to an upper are an 'Other' regardless if they are built or un-built and have a brace or stock. It's the mating the lower to a barrel that determines it's status. 'Others' mated with a barrel under 16" are defined as a pistol when they have a brace attached to the lower. If it's a stock, it's a short barrel rifle and needs an NFA tax stamp and federally registered. An AOW is a pistol but under 26" overall length and has a forward vertical grip. To further confuse this diatribe of failure, angled grips don't cause it to be an AOW. AOW's require an NFA tax stamp (a cheaper one still a 9month plus wait).

So, this shit is so confusing, I have gone to other gun stores and did a bit of light trolling to find out who knows what and how they run business. It's crazy confusing and I hear incorrect info all the time. I read it here and all over the internet too. Read the NFA and GCA. They are the controlling documents. Then read the ATF opinion letters on their web sight. Then you will truly know just how fucked up the ATF is and how stupid gun laws are.