Denver ?Ghost Gun? law

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Looks like DEnver is going ahead with silly virtue signaling gun laws. This time against ?Ghost Guns?.

Anyone have any insight into what this means? I?ve never delved into the 80% lower thing. I jack up 100% firearms with Dremel tools.

Just wondering what kind of stupidity could be in there when you consider 3D printers, having a block of aluminum, and the completion of stripped lowers.

https://denvergazette.com/news/crime/city-attorney-tries-to-crack-down-on-ghost-guns-in-denver/article_dca67772-5860-11ec-853b-67561341c4f6.html

[electronman1729]

How will this be enforced?

[kidicarus13]

Getting caught in possession of a gun with no serial number.

[00tec]

So, scratch a "1" on the frame with a pocket knife and call it a serial

[kidicarus13]

.88717

[def90]

Getting caught in possession of a gun with no serial number.

What do you do with your pre 1968 guns that didn't require serial numbers?

[kidicarus13]

Hopefully someone at the LE agency can tell the difference between a P80 and a pre-68 Iver Johnson IF the Denver law is enacted.

[O2HeN2]

What do you do with your pre 1968 guns that didn't require serial numbers?

No serial number, it's a ghost gun.

That's a feature.

O2

[battlemidget]

From the article
"
If passed, the measure would make it illegal for anyone to possess, wear, carry, transport, display, flourish, discharge, manufacture or sell any non-serialized firearm in Denver, including any non-serialized firearm frame or receiver.
"
How does one flourish a firearm?

EDIT-I see flourish is a synonym for brandish, forgive me, I aint got much college.

[TEAMRICO]

Criminals are shaking in their boots at this moment……….

[def90]

Is it currently legal to flourish or discharge a regular firearm in Denver as long as it has a serial number?

[def90]

Hopefully someone at the LE agency can tell the difference between a P80 and a pre-68 Iver Johnson IF the Denver law is enacted.

Well, the proposal as written doesn't make any distinction as to that possibility.

[kidicarus13]

Well, the proposal as written doesn't make any distinction as to that possibility.I did not realize this. Appears to be another poorly written law propsed by people unfamiliar with firearms.

[XJ]

IIRC something similar was just nuked by a judge in Nevada for being too vague.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

So, if you put a serial number on it, you are good? Or does that make you a manufacturer and need ATF paperwork?

[00tec]

You can put a serial number on anything you want. Put a serial on your steak if you want.

Unless you are in the business of manufacturing firearms for transfer, you are not required to be a licensed manufacturer

[O2HeN2]

You can put a serial number on anything you want. Put a serial on your steak if you want.

Which, in the case of a old, rare collectable, would ruin its value.

O2

[00tec]

Which, in the case of a old, rare collectable, would ruin its value.

O2

Never said it was a good idea

[O2HeN2]

Never said it was a good idea

Never thought you'd think so. :)

O2

[Great-Kazoo]

Hopefully someone at the LE agency can tell the difference between a P80 and a pre-68 Iver Johnson IF the Denver law is enacted.

[ROFL2][LOL] 99% of LE's couldn't tell the difference, between a SBR and carbine. let alone a GG..

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

[ROFL2][LOL] 99% of LE's couldn't tell the difference, between a SBR and carbine. let alone a GG..

Part of me wanted to watch the court monkeys in the Kenosha Kyle’s case try to measure barrel length correctly….

[00tec]

Part of me wanted to watch the court monkeys in the Kenosha Kyle’s case try to measure barrel length correctly….

Same.

[Seamonkey]

From the article
"
If passed, the measure would make it illegal for anyone to possess, wear, carry, transport, display, flourish, discharge, manufacture or sell any non-serialized firearm in Denver, including any non-serialized firearm frame or receiver.
"
How does one flourish a firearm?

EDIT-I see flourish is a synonym for brandish, forgive me, I aint got much college.

snap.. better not transport my C&R Remington 550 .22 rifle through Denver just in case

edit....
Fentanyl? Prescription drug abuse? Opiods?.... na, the REAL problem is those pesky firearms

https://www.foxnews.com/us/fentanyl-overdoses-leading-cause-death-adults
https://indyweek.com/news/northcarolina/as-drug-overdose-deaths-soar-addiction-experts-say-lawmakers-should-spend-money-on-evidence-based-treatment-programs/
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/drug-overdoses-are-soaring-e2-80-94-we-must-revise-laws-that-are-obstacles-to-treatment/ar-AARVecM

[eddiememphis]

You can put a serial number on anything you want. Put a serial on your steak if you want.


88752

I often do...

[00tec]

88752

I often do...

You nasty

[battlemidget]

At least it's not ketchup.

[Zundfolge]

Ok so it'll be illegal to have a gun without a serial number. So simply stamp a number 1 on the frame somewhere and you're good to go? According to the law it doesn't appear to require a certain number of digits? Nor that the number be unique? Nor that it be on file with anyone else?

[FoxtArt]

Everyone who reads laws like this and think there are "get out of jail loopholes" fundamentally don't understand the legal system.

IF the Denver DA did want to charge you, you would be successfully prosecuted whether or not your receiver was blank or had "FJB2021" engraved on it.

Laws only provide justification for the courts to attack you (the citizen), they do not, in truth, restrain the courts in any fashion, way, or kind. There's more than 1,000 ways a court can dynamically edit and even rewrite or create legislation and regulation to suit their whims, and it happens every day.

[crays]

There's more than 1,000 ways a court can dynamically edit and even rewrite or create legislation and regulation to suit their whims, and it happens every day.

Just for kicks, and since it's the weekend, how about citing several actual examples of legislation being rewritten or created in the middle of, and due to, litigation procedures, by the court?

Creative interpretation of existing laws/regulations don't count, as per your fairly specific declaration above.



Sent from somewhere

[crays]

Granted, after all of your anti-court posts and watching real, live, cases play out, I don't doubt that there is some internal influence happening, but come on.

You made a pretty bold statement. Back it up with evidence and it will go a long way to prove your point.

Pretty sure no none disagrees that the system is broken.

Sent from somewhere

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Everyone who reads laws like this and think there are "get out of jail loopholes" fundamentally don't understand the legal system.

IF the Denver DA did want to charge you, you would be successfully prosecuted whether or not your receiver was blank or had "FJB2021" engraved on it.

Laws only provide justification for the courts to attack you (the citizen), they do not, in truth, restrain the courts in any fashion, way, or kind. There's more than 1,000 ways a court can dynamically edit and even rewrite or create legislation and regulation to suit their whims, and it happens every day.


Just for kicks, and since it's the weekend, how about citing several actual examples of legislation being rewritten or created in the middle of, and due to, litigation procedures, by the court?

Creative interpretation of existing laws/regulations don't count, as per your fairly specific declaration above.



Sent from somewhere

Maybe a bit overstatement by the 1st comment, but not far from the truth. The reality is that the prosecution is the punishment. I know it is anecdotal, and I don’t have hard citations, but Denver grabbing ARs and saying have fun getting back your guns.

But is there any better example than Rittenhouse? The prosecution was the punishment- that will continue the rest of his life. Look at the prosecution overcharging. Look at the procedural ‘errors’ that violated his rights. Look at how they flipped the standard to basically being “Innocent beyond and crazy doubt”. That prosecution was a complete crap-show, from the prosecutor to the “I object to objecting” so-called ‘defense’. Yeah, not guilty- after how much time in jail and how much money spent?

[DDT951]

Yeah, not guilty- after how much time in jail and how much money spent?

This is where the entire system is broken.

Putting people in jail pending trial is punishment when they are not guilty.

Many time bond is set so they cannot get out and they dont have money to fight the system. Put most people in jail and then offer plea deals to get out and they will. Jail is a form or torture when a person has not been convicted.

How can anyone justify holding a person in jail when they have not been proven guilty?

And then a person is going up against a government with unlimited funds and people to prosecute.

Ways I see to help fix the problems.

If a person is found not guilty (acquitted) the DA spends 1:1 days in jail that the defendant did. Have some skin in the game for the DA. They won't bring cases they lose.
If charges are just stacked to intimidate a person into pleading and the person is acquitted, DA (or ADA) spend 25% of the total charges minimum jail time in prison.
The defendant is given dollar for dollar by the agency prosecuting the person the money to defend themselves. If the prosecution spends $2M (lawyer fees, police time, etc, etc) then the defense gets that much money. Lets make it fair.

[TresMonos]

So, scratch a "1" on the frame with a pocket knife and call it a serial

SN = FJB1

[FoxtArt]

Just for kicks, and since it's the weekend, how about citing several actual examples of legislation being rewritten or created in the middle of, and due to, litigation procedures, by the court?

Creative interpretation of existing laws/regulations don't count, as per your fairly specific declaration above.



Sent from somewhere

It was designed that way. Judges go so far as to rewrite not just legislation, but the constitution itself.

Example:
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/134/1/
PS: You might have to read the plaintext eleventh amendment as I'm not going out of my way to explain this.

Now you might say "that's SCOTUS" but have to understand, any judge can "interpret" the law at any stage, jurisdiction, or level. The lower and local shit is never published but just as binding against the parties. Case law is a myriad mess of contradictory garbage that lets a judge pick and choose whatever they agree with to justify any decision they want to make. A ton of opinions are published on "congressional intent" as well on state and federal levels, or basically, a law does not have to be clearly written at all, they can justify any opinion on the premise that it was congresses intent to have it that way even if the law doesn't say so, or even if it contradicts the plaintext. The cited case above takes it to the extreme where judges covertly rewrote the US constitution itself (and that change still stands to this day)

Say for instance, a bankruptcy trustee is in cahoots with an IRS agent and wants to force the sale of someones home and undercut their homestead exemption, leaving them homeless and cashless.

A judge could cite in re Bird to strongly condemn it: Jubber v. Bird (In re Bird), 577 B.R. 365 (B.A.P. 10th Cir. 2017)
Or they could cite to Pettigrew v. Consultants United, Inc. (In re SpecialCare, Inc.), 209 B.R. 13 (Bankr N.D. GA.1997) and In re Gill, 574 B.R. 709, 716 (9th Cir. BAP 2017) to condone the practice.

For these reasons, when you walk into a courtroom, NOTHING is predictable. No case is 100% foolproof. If the judge is not indifferent and favors a result, they'll damn well make sure it happens.

Now, insofar as you want me to make you a detailed thesis and a list, I am paid by the hour. You want me to do free work for you before Christmas, to satisfy your uneducated inferences? LOL. There are millions upon millions of these contradictions, still each one requires reading dozens upon dozens of pages of case law.

If this was not true, opposing attorneys would be unable to argue contrary points and attorneys would guarantee your result. Go ahead, find an attorney that promises you an outcome.

ETA: Judges in all courts write legal opinions, ad hoc, in total, hundreds every day, most of them wholly ignorant of what the standing law even is. If you go through all the costs of appealing at the end, the judge has zero consequence even if you prevail at everything. There is no consequence for judges who are wildly incorrect on the law. A judgeship is usually considered a "cush" job and consider that there is no man alive that knows even 10% of US law, and an appalling proportion of attorneys are incompetent on top of that, and you'll start to realize a courtroom operates more at an uncontrolled whim with the appearance of procedure than it does based on any law or regulation. Usually the parties know more about their respective law(s) than the judge does, and they are usually to care, or quite often, don't give a shit to get it right, as it takes immense effort to "get it right", and they get paid the same either way.

[FoxtArt]

The best way to fix the system, bar none, is to get rid of judges entirely and replace them with a novel concept: the "minor" jury with tons of other changes up and down. We have the judicial from the worst period of the middle ages, essentially unchanged, when the commoners were largely illiterate.

Some of the founders were dead wrong in their preference to not have professional jurors. This is a long discussion I don't have time for atm.

[00tec]

Covid carrying mayor signed it.

https://denver.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=5344507&GUID=B32E348C-A993-4037-8220-2D844100037D&Options=&Search=

[eddiememphis]

According to Denver's power point, 38 "ghost guns" have been confiscated since 2019.

[ray1970]

According to Denver's power point, 38 "ghost guns" have been confiscated since 2019.

I?d be really curious to break those numbers down into two categories- firearms that never had a serial number and firearms that started life with one but that serial number was intentionally removed.

I?d imagine the later scenario would make up most, if not all of those 38.

[Great-Kazoo]

According to Denver's power point, 38 "ghost guns" have been confiscated since 2019.

12ish per year. They should do a report how many in possession of an illegal firearm were sentenced and served time.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

So if they’ve been confiscated ghost guns, what did they need this law for?

https://denver.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=10380088&GUID=05DB4D2C-095C-4A89-9667-AB8720C8C05A

I see the words for the definition of a receiver, but I don’t know how that actually fits into the wall? So you can still work in an 80% receiver but as long as you put a number on it it’s OK? Or does that mean you have to file some ATF paperwork?

[Great-Kazoo]

So if they’ve been confiscated ghost guns, what did they need this law for?

https://denver.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=10380088&GUID=05DB4D2C-095C-4A89-9667-AB8720C8C05A

I see the words for the definition of a receiver, but I don’t know how that actually fits into the wall? So you can still work in an 80% receiver but as long as you put a number on it it’s OK? Or does that mean you have to file some ATF paperwork?

IMO, no. You apply a number and call it good. One issue is . IF and WHEN one were to have a LE run someone's serial number. It only comes back, or use to, if it was stolen. Then again w/out a search warrant GFL. Oh right is still CO.