Help identifying a Colt Navy London revolver

[Seamonkey]

I recently purchased a revolver at auction that bears a variety of interesting features and have emailed the Colt Collectors Association as well as the 'Worshipful Company of gunmakers of the city of London'

Any suggestions on other forums or associations that might be able to help is appreciated.



Like an original Colt 1851 Navy revolver:
Serial numbers are located on barrel, wedge, loading lever, frame, trigger guard and back strap.
On frame, it is also correctly located under the cylinder pin (unlike Colt 2nd. Gen).
It is arbor bottomed (unlike Colt 2nd. Gen).
Naval scenes on the cylinder seem to be roll-engraved as dashes can be seen along the cylinder and through the mention ? Engaged 16 may 1843 ?.
Colt's Patent seems to be original on cylinder and frame (note that the 2 arms of the first T in ? Patent ? are broken).
The revolver received a high finish of blueing and case hardening.


Like an original Hartford-London Model:
Barrel address is the Hartford-London type with dashes instead of arrows,
British proof marks, crown over GP & crown over V are stamped in the right places on frame and cylinder,
No Ormsby signature on cylinder,
Heads of the screws are rounded.
Large iron trigger guard and iron back strap.

As classified by M . Swayze in his book ?Colt 51 Navies ?, the original London revolver #38622 should be an Early Fourth Model and this one is a Late Fourth Model.
Frame is the late type with a cap slot in the percussion shield cut-out. barrel is the late type with a beveled loading notch and a thick loading lever catch.

Frame with percussion shield is barely finished and not polished,
Cylinder pin has only 14 grease grooves instead of 20/21 for the originals and 2nd gen,
No assembly number or inspector's marks on components,

Wood grip is a replacement and has a different serial number.

British proof marks would indicate that the revolver was proofed and sold in England before 1954, although the workmanship and steel looks modern.

[kidicarus13]

My suggestion would be PICTURES for this thread to get any traction.

[Seamonkey]

89112891138911489115

[Seamonkey]

89116891178911889119

[Seamonkey]

891208912189122

[.455_Hunter]

My guess is a well done early replica. It's very hard to store a gun for over 150 years and see no finish degradation.

[bczandm]

In my opinion it's reproduction.

1) Grips have the wrong wood grain and finish.
2) Their are signs of metal work that isn't from the correct time period. As an example some of the machining marks on the cylinder don't look correct to me. The machine marks shown on the bottom of the grip strap are wrong and would not have been shipped like that from Colt.
3) I've only handled a few of these but the finish lacks the bright blue of the period. It also lacks a patina that I would expect to see.
4) EDIT: I don't think the font is correct on the serial numbered parts.

If it's anything other than a fairly modern copy I'd be surprised but I'll note that it's a bit out of my area of knowledge....but not by far.
bob

[earplug]

Check out Navy Arms for past models and information. They have a nice website with a contact link. They claim to have made the first reproduction Colts.
Even if they didn't make your revolver they might know who did and when. I'm curious about the proof marks. Are they real or a reproduction?

[Seamonkey]

Thanks for the replies. My friend has a lot more knowledge about this particular revolver and is stumped. He has several modern Uberti replica's and the markings do not match those.
We assume it's either an early reproduction or possibly a rebuild/clean up with the usual questions of who? when?

Trying to figure out what resources would be available to help identify this item such as forums geared towards it or collector associations.

Are proof marks used in reproductions? Else it was marked for sale in London pre 1954
Would Colt release this type of revolver as part of a mix-match pile of parts considering the machine marks? Pardon my ignorance, wondering if there was something like the CMP at the time that would take revolvers that are not fit for duty and rebuild from parts then reissued?

Regardless it's a nice revolver and a great intro for me to this side of history.

I have a lot more pictures available on the Google drive, PM for a link

[Seamonkey]

89125

Backstrap is marked with 'NAVY' and the letter 'C'

[encorehunter]

https://www.collectorsfirearms.com/products/142461-cased-colt-1851-navy-ac18.html

About the closest I could find for a comparison. Having the revolver in hand would make comparisons easier. Attention to detail, like checkering on hammer, font as was mentioned before. If all checks out, then take it to a person who knows and specializes in old Colts. I had an original Smith that went to an expert and I was pleasantly surprised with the outcome.

[Seamonkey]

I contacted Acevedo based on a post in the Colt forum and his replies are below.

post #33 on the Colt Forum -- https://www.coltforum.com/threads/a-confusing-1851-navy-navy-colt.84011/page-2

Here Aaron's observations:
"From the pictures I can tell it most likely has been refinished at a very high level. The case hardening and bluing very well could have been done by my father or grandfather. The grips, however, don't look like anything my family would install, though I could be mistaken. I'm waiting to hear back from my father about the serial number. I can't tell you for sure whether or not it's all original/refinished, or parts of an original mixed with correctly stamped parts. I can say that the amount of work that went into the polishing and finish would be VERY expensive to reproduce in today's market. Your friend has done a very thorough assessment, by the way. I'll see what kind of information I can dig up for you, thanks for reaching out."

"The trigger guard looks a bit questionable as well. I know for a fact my father or grandfather wouldn't let anything out of the shop if the surfaces didn't mate properly, or with anything written/scratched in. The finish looks a little mismatched from the rest of the revolver in the photos, and there are pits where it meets the frame."



Initial observations for ref:

Like an original Colt 1851 Navy revolver:
Serial numbers are located on barrel, wedge, loading lever, frame, trigger guard and back strap.
On frame, it is also correctly located under the cylinder pin (unlike Colt 2nd. Gen).
It is arbor bottomed (unlike Colt 2nd. Gen).
Naval scenes on the cylinder seem to be roll-engraved as dashes can be seen along the cylinder and through the mention ? Engaged 16 may 1843 ?.
Colt's Patent seems to be original on cylinder and frame (note that the 2 arms of the first T in ? Patent ? are broken).
The revolver received a high finish of blueing and case hardening.


Like an original Hartford-London Model:
Barrel address is the Hartford-London type with dashes instead of arrows,
British proof marks, crown over GP & crown over V are stamped in the right places on frame and cylinder,
No Ormsby signature on cylinder,
Heads of the screws are rounded.
Large iron trigger guard and iron back strap.

As classified by M . Swayze in his book ?Colt 51 Navies ?, the original London revolver #38622 should be an Early Fourth Model and this one is a Late Fourth Model.
Frame is the late type with a cap slot in the percussion shield cut-out. barrel is the late type with a beveled loading notch and a thick loading lever catch.

Frame with percussion shield is barely finished and not polished,
Cylinder pin has only 14 grease grooves instead of 20/21 for the originals and 2nd gen,
No assembly number or inspector's marks on components,

Wood grip is a replacement and has a different serial number.

British proof marks would indicate that the revolver was proofed and sold in England before 1954, although the workmanship and steel looks modern.

[Nra-Life-Member]

Check out coltcountryforum.com
They may be able to assist.