View Full Version : Keep it classy DC!
Plain clothes detective pulls gun at a snowball fight.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/20/AR2009122000881.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,580693,00.html?test=latestnews
200 man snowball fight?! Oh man, wish I could've been there! That would be AWESOME!
Yes, I'm a kid at heart.
two shoes
12-21-2009, 12:06
Plain clothes detective pulls gun at a snowball fight.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/20/AR2009122000881.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,580693,00.html?test=latestnews
Nice!
Might be hard to find the evidence of the weapon (snowball).
This is one of those situations where it could have escalated when both sides lost their cool.
Unfortunately... I'm not going to lie: I would be tempted to throw a snowball at the cop when he turned his back if he unholstered his weapon for no apparent reason.
On the other hand, we don't know if the snowball that hit his hummer was intentional or not. It is written to make us believe that it was since certain parties were enagaging the "gas guzzlers" due to their beliefs, lol. Like throwing a snowball is going to make them think "Gee, maybe I shouldn't be driving this thing". BTW, if anyone has a hummer they want to get rid of, my number is 970-....
HAHA. And record snowfall for 6 states... wow, that global warming thing is really catching on!
two shoes
12-21-2009, 12:13
If he did not ID himself as an officer imediately, a CCW citizen could have taken that as a direct threat. Could have ended very badly for all involved. Not sure if CCW is even allowed in DC...
two shoes
12-21-2009, 12:17
Unfortunately... I'm not going to lie: I would be tempted to throw a snowball at the cop when he turned his back if he unholstered his weapon for no apparent reason
Snowball fights.... Sometimes it takes 2 balls!
If he did not ID himself as an officer imediately, a CCW citizen could have taken that as a direct threat. Could have ended very badly for all involved. Not sure if CCW is even allowed in DC...
Here we go, this might make a good discussion. The plainsclothes idiot did not fire a shot and it is unknown if he even drew down on someone... All that's said is that he unholstered and held at his side. While this is definitely brandishing, I'm not sure the CCW would've been justified at all if he/she stepped in. I'm sure it could've gotten really nasty, really quick.
I don't know if CCW is allowed in DC either. With all the politics and stuff there, I highly doubt it or if it is, I'm sure they pay a premium.
Nothing to be ashamed of Big Bear. He should have been pelted into the ground, then kicked, for pulling his gun over a snow ball. You know what you do when there is a 200 person snow ball fight and people hit your car? Keep driving.
Bear, Hummers are TERRIBLE vehicles.
two shoes
12-21-2009, 12:22
Nothing to be ashamed of Big Bear. He should have been pelted into the ground, then kicked, for pulling his gun over a snow ball. You know what you do when there is a 200 person snow ball fight and people hit your car? Keep driving.
Bear, Hummers are TERRIBLE vehicles.
Ya, you want a Volvo C303.... or a Pinzgauer 710... [Beer]
Owning a Hummer in any urban environment deserve a snowball to the nuts anyway.
I used to drive them around when I was a lot tech at a car dealership. They are too big, very slow, terrible blind spots, and over all unreliable junk. The interior is alarmingly uncomfortable and cramped for such a large vehicle.
I'm talking about H1 Hummers of course. In this case, converting a military vehicle to something people would drive every day was a terrible idea. Worst civilian vehicle ever.
One time, these yokles strolled onto the dealership and drove up with a used Hummer (which were all priced at $17,000 over book value by the way). Anyway, they went straight to the gas station at the end of the street and topped it off with unleaded. It came back the next day on a flat bed. I guess they got lucky and the motor only bent some valves or something. It was a riot.
two shoes
12-21-2009, 12:27
Here we go, this might make a good discussion. The plainsclothes idiot did not fire a shot and it is unknown if he even drew down on someone... All that's said is that he unholstered and held at his side. While this is definitely brandishing, I'm not sure the CCW would've been justified at all if he/she stepped in. I'm sure it could've gotten really nasty, really quick.
I don't know if CCW is allowed in DC either. With all the politics and stuff there, I highly doubt it or if it is, I'm sure they pay a premium.
At what angle would a person likely consider the gun to be pointed at them... If in a shoulder holster, someone would likely be crossed by the muzzle, whereas a side/hip holster, it is plausable to keep the muzzle pointed at the ground...
SA Friday
12-21-2009, 12:27
No CCW in DC. ONly cops and criminals are allowed to carry. Keeps everyone safe..
two shoes
12-21-2009, 12:29
No CCW in DC. ONly cops and criminals are allowed to carry. Keeps everyone safe..
[LOL]
GreenScoutII
12-21-2009, 12:30
200 guys having a snowball fight? AWESOME!!!!
As far as the cop drawing his weapon, I'll wait to hear the rest of the story. I think most LEO's are good people who wouldn't draw unless there was good reason. If it turns out he drew his gun just because his car got hit by a snowball he deserves a reprimand at the very least.
No need to wait.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMrhiBwF4MU
I think maybe he should have just produced his badge, instead of his gun. That unnecessarily escalates things.
At what angle would a person likely consider the gun to be pointed at them... If in a shoulder holster, someone would likely be crossed by the muzzle, whereas a side/hip holster, it is plausable to keep the muzzle pointed at the ground...
Very good thoughts.
As far as the hummer thing, I'm used to living out in the boonies/sticks, etc. I would love (yes as a civilian) to have an old military surplus hummer. All those times getting stuck in the mud or trying to pull out a stump or blah, blah, blah. On the other hand: I wouldn't set foot in one of those civilian "H" models.
Agreed, I think most cops are decent folks... but it just takes one idiot... lol.
HAHAHA... Watched the video. The dude is stopped in the MIDDLE of the street! He's also STANDING in the MIDDLE of the street impedeing traffic!! Sounds like he was having a bad day before his car got hit.
Serisouly though... 200 man snowball fight! Get there a few hours early, build a fort, stock up on ammo! It would've been on with my buddies and I! ATTACK!!! HAHA.
If I showed so much as a gun in a holster because somebody nailed my car with a snowball, I'd be in jail facing felony menacing charges. Why should a plainclothes, apparently off duty cop be any different?
I get that he was pissed, but a gun is never the right response to a snowball....
SA Friday
12-21-2009, 13:06
If I showed so much as a gun in a holster because somebody nailed my car with a snowball, I'd be in jail facing felony menacing charges. Why should a plainclothes, apparently off duty cop be any different?
I get that he was pissed, but a gun is never the right response to a snowball....
LE personnel are obligated to protect citizens and themselves. You as a private citizen have no obligation to protect either. The key is the cops are obligated weather they want to or not or they can face action that would not apply to you. Hence, escalating to a show of force (pulling a handgun from it's holster) for LE is within acceptable levels. LE personnel are allowed to escalate force to one level above the oppositions. A private citizen can essentially escalate force to the level of opposition. A group of dozens against one cop standing in the middle of what could obviously turn precarious, drawing may seem extreme but I wouldn't start comparing his obligations to non LE's over it.
DC is probably the toughest cop gig in the USA. Had a buddy that was a DC cop when I was stationed at Andrews back in the mid 90's. He quit after shooting and killing two kids that rushed him out of nowhere with guns; trying to get their tear tattoos... He was in uniform and on foot patrol. DC isn't even as nice as the worst part of CO on a bad day. Cut the guy some slack. After watching the vid, I could see that situation going real bad long before he ever got to the intersection. He diffused it. It's hard to prove his actions may have saved someones life, but it's too easy to criticize.
Troublco
12-21-2009, 13:48
LE personnel are obligated to protect citizens and themselves. You as a private citizen have no obligation to protect either. The key is the cops are obligated weather they want to or not or they can face action that would not apply to you. Hence, escalating to a show of force (pulling a handgun from it's holster) for LE is within acceptable levels. LE personnel are allowed to escalate force to one level above the oppositions. A private citizen can essentially escalate force to the level of opposition. A group of dozens against one cop standing in the middle of what could obviously turn precarious, drawing may seem extreme but I wouldn't start comparing his obligations to non LE's over it.
DC is probably the toughest cop gig in the USA. Had a buddy that was a DC cop when I was stationed at Andrews back in the mid 90's. He quit after shooting and killing two kids that rushed him out of nowhere with guns; trying to get their tear tattoos... He was in uniform and on foot patrol. DC isn't even as nice as the worst part of CO on a bad day. Cut the guy some slack. After watching the vid, I could see that situation going real bad long before he ever got to the intersection. He diffused it. It's hard to prove his actions may have saved someones life, but it's too easy to criticize.
Not that I'm faulting anyone for their opinion, but it's really easy to armchair quarterback things like this after it's over. Especially somewhere like DC. Places like that, it might as well be open season on law enforcement. I think it's a good thing that nobody, officer included, came out of it with a toe tag. I find it amazing that police are willing to do their jobs at all in these days of video cameras in everyone's hand, where it's easy to edit any context at all right out of it. I'm not excusing bad cops, but it's damn hard for the good ones just to do their jobs.
LE personnel are obligated to protect citizens and themselves.
Your statement is inaccurate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
From my point of view, everyone involved in this is in the wrong. While the cop is out of line for pulling his weapon (IMHO), the crowd throwing snowballs at him and then continuously yelling out 'Fucking Pig' show a complete lack of common sense and respect for police. Antagonizing an armed individual when your only weapon is a snow ball is a special kind of stupid even after you know he's a cop let alone before.
And am I the only one who thinks throwing snowballs into traffic is stupid too? You should never throw things into traffic, again total lack of common sense. I can see the general population in our nation's capitol are the poster children for stupid. While I agree with a previous statement that banning guns only arms the police and the criminals, I wouldn't trust any of these dumb asses with a squirt gun let alone real iron.
SA Friday
12-21-2009, 14:41
Your statement is inaccurate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
OK, then why do cops ever protect anyone? Apparently, they have no obligation. Why oh why did I give a shit for those 11 years...
wow that is a ridiculous story, hope the guy gets fucking canned and the city sued for hiring such an idiot.
What the police are legal required to do, and what their company police may be are different things though. Legally required or not, de facto, they are obligated to protect people.
When I went on a ride along with a friend I asked him about the rumor of police cruisers driving around with their search lights being pointed down as being, "off duty." He (correctly) responded, if you are in a marked vehicle, you are never off duty."
wow that is a ridiculous story, hope the guy gets fucking canned and the city sued for hiring such an idiot.
And I hope every dumbass who touched a snowball gets a friggin huge fine/ticket or drop kicked in the junk.
We werent there. Two sides to every story.
This is one of those were everyone should get into trouble. While I think that pulling a gun was uncalled for, and deserves a snowball to the face, that doesn't excuse the thrower from the "assulting an officer" charges. Would that make everyone happy?
also, it shows the thrower on the video, I think at the end they grabbed the wrong guy, but I would have to watch the video again.
OK, then why do cops ever protect anyone? Apparently, they have no obligation. Why oh why did I give a shit for those 11 years...
How the heck should I know?
And I hope every dumbass who touched a snowball gets a friggin huge fine/ticket or drop kicked in the junk.
We werent there. Two sides to every story.
oh definitely. If I saw someone hit my vehicle with a snowball I would press charges and confront them, but pulling a gun on someone seems a bit out of line.
all i have to work with is the info provided and I base my opinion off that.
Troublco
12-21-2009, 16:04
Just more proof that the entire country being babyproofed by OSHA is allowing the really stupid ones to live far past when they should have become a statistic.
Of course, I suppose the Darwin Awards wouldn't be as funny if there were THAT many more!
There is a pillow fight at like 15th and Larimer every year, but I don't remember there being problems.
Oops, it's 15th and Larimer. I hope none of you guys show up with your pillow to the wrong block next year. haha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn927JFrob4
Troublco
12-21-2009, 17:13
Well, look out now. You pull that assault pillow, no telling what will happen.
are you talking about those "evil black" pillows?
Since it is in Denver. No pillow is allowed to hold more than 20 feathers at a time. Also, the case has to be at least 26" long.
still a little confusing, can you or can't you conceal a neck pillow in the city and county of Denver.
Troublco
12-21-2009, 19:07
Inflatable pillows are strictly forbidden. Too easy to conceal...
MichiganMilitia
12-21-2009, 21:34
I think maybe he should have just produced his badge, instead of his gun. That unnecessarily escalates things.
I agree with this, but think about it... I know if I were in his shoes I would have been frustrated too. It's extremely hard to combat an unarmed mob of 200 idiots by yourself.
That video doesn't show how long the ordeal was going on before he unholstered his weapon. Also, did they have a protest permit? If so, at what point did their protest become violent/dangerous/out of control? Throwing snowballs at passing cars in an intersection can create a very dangerous driving situation. I've been hit in the windshield with a snowball while driving about 35 mph through a neighborhood and it is a startling thing. If a person were trying to drive through a lot of snow (as they had there) and get through an intersection (as he was there) and they get hit with a snowball right in their field of view, it's reasonable to assume that they could lose control of their vehicle an cause an accident, injuries, or worse.
These people throwing snowballs were idiots out looking for a fight. It's easy for mob mentality to get a hold of you and drive you to do crazy things when you're surrounded by hundreds of energized people. Regardless, the guy that threw the snowball at an armed man (cop or not) was a moron and should have been arrested for assault or kicked in the nuts for being an idiot. I'm a big fan of darwinism. This guy's parents should have kept using condoms or something.
You're not supposed to take on a mob of 200 people by yourself.
There was no "situation" that you didn't see. They were having a snowball fight and threw snowballs at Hummers. He happened to be a detective in a Hummer.
They were not protesting.
The thing that just occurred to me, is that they said they were throwing snowballs at Hummers. How many Hummers go through one DC intersection in just one hour anyway? I guess it was a snow storm though.
Also, do you need a permit to protest? I know they require them in China.
MichiganMilitia
12-21-2009, 22:55
You're not supposed to take on a mob of 200 people by yourself.
I didn't say he should've gotten out of his hummer...
They were not protesting.
From the article
Gas-guzzling Hummers became a particular target, Grishkoff said, because of the crowd's political leanings. (A few people, witnesses said, brought an antiwar sign, although the snowball fight was not a political protest.) And I just read it again and I guess to me the article seemed to be written by someone sympathetic to the protesters/snowball fighters... that's the perceived mood IMHO... The article paints the off-duty as a an evil man who wanted to shoot some people throwing snowballs, but from the downright disgusting language and the attitudes of the people in the videos I watched, I don't think the snowball-throwers were all so innocent either.
Also, do you need a permit to protest? I know they require them in China.
Cities regulate this. They say that it is so that the local police can plan to accommodate them for safety/barricades/keeping order etc. I think it only applies to groups over a certain number in size... something like more than 50 people required a permit back in my hometown, Grand Rapids, MI.
Regardless.... unless they were disrupting law and order or doing something like blocking the intersection or creating a dangerous situation, that guy should have stayed in his hummer. C'mon guys... snowball fights are fun! [Twist]
theGinsue
12-21-2009, 23:02
And record snowfall for 6 states... wow, that global warming thing is really catching on!
You know that the greenies are saying that these record cold snaps and snowfalls are due to the return of El Nino ~ which they say is directly caused by Global Warming. They've got an excuse for everything and no valid scientific data to back any of it up.
I think maybe he should have just produced his badge, instead of his gun. That unnecessarily escalates things.
BINGO! (Thanks for the video link Irving!)
If I showed so much as a gun in a holster because somebody nailed my car with a snowball, I'd be in jail facing felony menacing charges. Why should a plainclothes, apparently off duty cop be any different?
I get that he was pissed, but a gun is never the right response to a snowball....
I agree that anyone even displaying and handling a firearm - even still in the holster - would have faced severe legal repercussions. Even OUTSIDE of D.C.
LE personnel are obligated to protect citizens and themselves. You as a private citizen have no obligation to protect either. The key is the cops are obligated weather they want to or not or they can face action that would not apply to you. Hence, escalating to a show of force (pulling a handgun from it's holster) for LE is within acceptable levels. LE personnel are allowed to escalate force to one level above the oppositions. A private citizen can essentially escalate force to the level of opposition. A group of dozens against one cop standing in the middle of what could obviously turn precarious, drawing may seem extreme but I wouldn't start comparing his obligations to non LE's over it.
I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. In Warren v. District of Columbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia) (already cited) and re-affirmed in Castle Rock v. Gonzales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales), contrary to what we've always been taught, the Supreme Court found that Law Enforcement has NO obligation to provide protection to citizens.
OK, then why do cops ever protect anyone? Apparently, they have no obligation. Why oh why did I give a shit for those 11 years...
Because you, like me, possess a sense of duty, a respect for others, and you want to make a difference for the better.
Regarding the escalation of force, the use of a firearm is always considered "lethal force" and I can't imagine anyone thinking that one step escalation from a snowball authorizes the use of lethal force. When I "played cop", we had it drilled into us over and over that you had to use the "Threat Matrix" to determine the proper level of force authorized. While the video doesn't show the situation from the time the guys Hummer gets hit with a snowball until he ends up drawing his weapon, I'm not seeing how this could be an authorized use of force. Yes, it was one officer against a huge crowd of individuals. One officer that chose to escalate the situation into a potential deadly confrontation for himself, the snowballers, and innocent bystanders.
Personally, I think this cop was way out of line. There is one point in the video where he takes several steps towards an individual (who was more than likely mouthing off), gets right in this guys face and orders him to step back. This was clearly an abuse of authority and he was more than likely trying to antagonize the person into striking him (intentionally trying to escalate the situation). This officer needs to be demoted back to uniform street patrol and retrained in how to (a) properly interact with the public, and (b) properly use the Threat Matrix to determine the LEGAL level of force authorized. If he had an issue with his vehicle getting pelted with snowballs, the proper thing to do would have been to pull over (preferably past the snowball fight) and use his radio to call in uniformed officers to disperse the snowballers. This would have had a better chance of keeping the situation from escalating. Things could have gotten really nasty because of this Detective's actions. Thankfully for all concerned, it didn't.
I agree that performing the duties of an LEO is very difficult and oftentimes downright scary. It's a job that I enjoyed while I did it but chose not to pursue it further - mostly due to today’s climate.
I don’t believe that the snowballers were looking for a fight or having a protest – they were just total morons. Now, as far as what should have happened to the dumbass snowballers, they should have been rounded up by every cop they could muster and detained at the station long enough to make it uncomfortable for them to think twice before doing something that stupid again. Anyone that they could prove threw a snowball at the officer should be charged with an assaulting an officer charge.
C'mon guys... snowball fights are fun! [Twist]
Im with you 100% on that!
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