View Full Version : Open Discussion of all Things Electric Vehicle (aka EV) for Those Pro or Con, BE RESPECTFUL!
We don't all have to agree but let's be respectful in our disagreements.
The goal of starting this thread this isn't to "convert" anyone against their will or spread the word of our lord and savior Elon Musk. I wanted to have an open forum where people can ask questions, get answers and challenge what people hold to be true whether that be for or against the segment. This is an emerging tech market and, as such, what may have been true last year or even last month may not be the case today. I want to have a neutral thread where people can have an open discussion about this topic w/o feeling as if they're being forced or convinced of anything.
I've been researching this for a number of years now and have been 100% EV for several years as well. Ask me anything you want and I will do my best to answer your question. If something about it sucks, I will be open and honest. I have no agenda other than making sure that people have as much information as possible before echoing untruths as "facts" or deciding something isn't for them based on these same conversations. I'm not a environmentalist and only drive these cars because they're the best I've ever driven. Prior to that, I too felt they weren't for me and I know lots of people that fit a similar description now. That only happens if you what you think you know as fact is challenged and you're open enough to at least consider it. If you aren't willing to have an unbiased conversation this isn't the thread for you.
Now that more players are coming to the arena I think things are going to start get interesting. This feels like a good time to have this conversation. Lots of cool stuff on the horizon and the consumer will benefit greatly from these advancements even if they stick with ICE vehicles. The bar has been raised and everyone will benefit as competition must adjust or business will be lost to the innovator.
I know this is a highly politically charged topic but let's do our best to keep politics out of it as much as possible. I assure you that I didn't vote Biden just because I drive a Tesla. You'd be surprised who is driving these things these days and their reasons. Here's your chance to get to know them if you're interested.
Great-Kazoo
02-14-2022, 17:25
If it was financially, as well as practical for our needs. I'd consider one. Till then, the price point, or limitations are not something i'd buy
In order to jump start things over here, I "borrowed" a post from the older thread that sort of turned into the main EV discussion thread that I wanted to address.
I think the "not practical" is a valid argument when.
1. Weather is very cold (lithium batteries are stored cold when they want to put batteries into "hibernation")
2. Long distance driving involved
3. Trailer towing or heavy loads (especially with long distances).
Gasoline / Diesel definitely has the advantage over batteries with 1) amount of energy that can be carried on a vehicle and 2) speed at which the energy can be replaced.
What I envision in my future (not immediate) is there will probably be mix of electric and hydrocarbon fueled vehicles. I could see keeping my pickup for the reasons listed above, but for a "city car" or "daily driver" electric would probably be really good.
I wouldn't say it's not valid but it's far less valid than some believe. Your points go on to speak to exactly this:
1. While it's true Lithium Ion batteries don't like cold, that doesn't mean that engineering can't overcome this shortcoming for using them in vehicles. As a result, some of the cars handle it far better than others so a common mistake a lot of people make is "well EVs this or that" and lump them all into one category. I can tell you that I wouldn't go back to owning an ICE car in Colorado, especially in the winter. If you get an EV that has provisions for BMS that regulates the cell's temperature (for both hot and cold) to keep them at am optimal state this is really a non-issue other than slightly decreased range in the winter. This last fact is far less impactful one some vehicles than others and overall, far less impactful than some would have you believe. Being able to open an app on my phone and have my cabin be 70 degrees (or whatever temperature I want) within 2-3 minutes in any ambient temp is priceless. Never waiting for an engine to heat up to make heat or pre-heating a vehicle is priceless. The cars we have are the best winter car we've ever owned for many more reasons than just that.
2. See my other posts about this topic exactly. My wife and I take regular road trips all over the country in the summer months. This is a direct result of having Teslas as we rarely did it prior to owning them and certainly didn't do it for fun. This is a continually improving metric so between ranges going up and charge rates going up along with rapidly expanding Supercharger network this has become a pretty minimal difference unless you are the type of person who pulls a horse trailer, drives 2,000 miles in a single day and pisses in bottles versus stopping. This isn't how I choose to travel though, especially since having blood clots in my lungs a while back. Getting out for bio breaks and stretching every 2-3 hours isn't a bad thing IMO. But yeah, if I just described you then an EV probably isn't practical.
3. I agree with this. Hell, even Elon aka "King battery guy" says that BEV isn't the right technology for this use. He's gone on record several times saying that it's not the right tech for long-haul truckers. Nobody is making anything else though and Tesla is a battery company so... BEV semi! lol I tend to agree though that this isn't the way but there's got to be a better way than what we currently do. Even hydrogen (once we find a way to lower the cost of production and lots of other variables to make it viable) is probably a better solution for that use. It can be done with EVs (especially the newer ones coming out engineered for it) but it's not the ideal solution for most and viability varies based on many factors.
There are also lots of negatives to your pros of gas/diesel over EV so if you weighed them out you'd probably be surprised. That said, I know your list wasn't meant to be exhaustive so it wouldn't be fair for me to start addressing it as such.
In summary, I will say that EVs being "not practical" is a common misconception as they are not only practical but offer a significant improvement over ICE vehicles for most these days. I think lots of people checked out on them years ago based on what was true then but hasn't been for years now and kind of checked out. I'm often times guilty of the same thing though.
Martinjmpr
02-14-2022, 17:48
My stepson got a Chevy Volt last year and loves it. His is a PHEV which I think has more adaptability than a full EV since it can run on the ICE engine as well as the electric. He says it generally stays in electric mode until he's got 25 miles or so then the engine kicks in. For 90% of around-town commuting the ICE engine never kicks in.
I do think ICE vehicles will eventually wither away although I don't think it will be as soon as many EV proponents would like.
The one thing I don't hear about is how and when we are going to upgrade the electrical generating capacity of the country at a time when we are shutting down coal and gas fired power plants. How much juice does it take to recharge an EV each night? Maybe the same as a small air conditioner, running anywhere between 10 - 14 hours at a time?
When only one car on the block is an EV that's a piece of cake for the existing generating capacity. But when it gets to 1 in 4 or 1 in 3 there's going to have to be an upgrade. And given that the power will be needed at night when people are sleeping, we're not going to get it with solar.
Then of course, there's the problem that not everybody lives in the suburbs. Millions of people live in apartments or condos where they have to park on the street. Think about any big Eastern city, NY, Boston, Philadelphia. Lots of people live in apartments or houses that have no parking structure or driveway and still own cars. Where do those people charge their EVs?
I foresee a cottage industry of building charging station/parking lots. Imagine a large parking lot like you'd see anywhere else, but every single space has a charging station in front of it. Given that your car will have an electronic "identity" there's likely not even any need to swipe a credit card. As soon as you plug in, the charging station will "know" who's account to charge and it can bill you for the hours of parking, too.
There are some interesting privacy aspects to that, too although the prevalence of smart phones might make that a moot issue.
If it was financially, as well as practical for our needs. I'd consider one. Till then, the price point, or limitations are not something i'd buy
Out of curiosity, are you talking new? If someone is buying a new car and looking for advice I'm not your guy because that deprecation hit you take is just brutal on ANY brand. If you're buying a new car (given the aforementioned rate of depreciation) you have FAR bigger financial concerns than annual fuel bill versus electricity bill.
That said, if you find a good deal on used one you can find a great car for a fraction of what they cost new. In our case, I've actually bought/sold seven of them used now. Not only do we not lose money but we actually make a few bucks. I realize that not everybody will want to go through this so I'm not suggesting it's for everyone.
I tell people that they can conservatively estimate paying 1/10th in electricity than they do gas to cover the same miles. That delta is even greater now that gas prices are crazy but it's a nice round number that makes mental estimations easy. We save right around $4k per year, per vehicle. I spread sheeted this out years ago when gas prices were $2.18/gal so you can only imagine how much we save now that that price has blown up. We also drive less than average so that savings would also go up relative how many miles you put on your vehicle. Bonus, you never ride that fuel price roller coaster again.
Naturally, whatever you determine to spend on the front end to acquire said vehicle will impact that "savings" figure but it's not nothing. Sock that money away for a "rainy day" and you can have a nice repair account built up by the time the 8-year battery pack and drive motor warranty expires should you need to replace them.
I wouldn't suggest buying an EV strictly for the gas/oil savings but... it's another entry in the "for" column for sure.
Martinjmpr
02-14-2022, 17:59
And then there's the issue of those people who have to drive further than an electric charge can take them, and do so on a regular basis. Unless there's some kind of breakthrough in recharging technology that's always going to be a roadblock to mass EV adoption. For 95% of users, that won't be an issue.
HOWEVER, I think when you look at it that way you are committing the error of assuming that travel with EVs (or should be) exactly the same as travel with ICE vehicles.
There's no reason to think that it will. Nobody is on this board who was alive when horses were the normal means of transportation in the US. But when people went from animal-drawn travel to motor vehicles, they didn't just change what vehicles they used, they changed HOW they traveled.
Take a look at the Western immigrants: The Oregon Trail followed generally along rivers. It had to because they needed the water and the grass for their draft animals, and they needed the route to be relatively flat, as flat as possible. But then when they built the transcontinental railroad, they went straight across the desert. With no draft animals there was no longer any need to follow the river or to stay on flat ground that wagons could roll across.
I can foresee a few different ways around the long-distance issue. We may see, for example, a resurgence of rail travel where people put their electric vehicles onto a train and ride there, unloading when they get to their destination. This was actually not an uncommon way of traveling in the early part of the 20th century when the modern road system didn't exist and roads between cities were often impassable, especially in bad weather.
Or, we may see it become common that there will be fleets of ICE or hybrid long distance vehicles that people can rent when they need to do a long distance trip.
Finally, people may simply plan longer trips to have shorter "legs" so they can recharge along the way.
My point is that a major shift in technology like this often requires us to consider that it's not just one technological thing (the automobile) that is changing; rather the whole WAY in which we think of personal vehicle travel will likely change as well.
Environmentalist, Mercedes-Benz EQS, Coolness of EV, Carbon Monoxide danger did NOT change my mind.
The Tax/Accounting+ cost efficiency + rebates + time saved at a COSTCO gas station+ use car trade-in allowance got me to change my mind to buy an EV.
PROS:
1. No Gas, No Squeezee! - No gas $. Yes I do charge at home, but I take whatever opportunity to get a free Level 2 charge at a mall or business for FREE. One hour of free charge equals to ~35 miles.
(that is 1.5 gals for Tacoma range $$$$$$$$).
2. Less maintenance- Regen Braking (KERS) paddle shifts to use less actual brake. No oil change, no transmission fluid change.
3. Time- I spend about 5 min wait to gas at Costco gas station, because they have the cheapest 91 octane. I gas once a week, so 5min/week x 52week = saved. I can always use the hell out of EV, and charge it when I sleep.
4- Tax rebate and other rebates (if purchased or leased NEW)- Yes, Tesla and GM no longer have that 7500 but other manuf do.
7500 is a tax credit. Yes, Let's assume that you normally report 400k/yr, but you only decide to take home 5k due to heavy writeoffs this year. You are MOST LIKELY NOT qualified for 7500 tax credit if you purchase. However, if you are leasing (and if manuf is putting 7500 for cap reduction to lower the price) the vehicle, govt gives 7500 to manufacturer and will put $ down for you.
Yes, you do need to pay for that 7500 tax credit TAX too.
Example, I got $10,400 total rebate, and I had to pay $10400 rebate x 0.085 tax= $884 in tax.
You probably do not even need tot talk to your tax advisor, but talk to your tax advisor to make sure about this prior to Purchase vs Lease.
CONS:
1. infrastructure- I know this does NOT applies to Tesla, because they have a great infrastructure for fast DC Charging station.
I need this to travel long distance out of state.
I need to sign up for FREE on app/acct to get acct for fast charging DC station to use those. Only 5 min hassle, but it is like trying to use Shell or Sinclair gas station and I need to make an account first.
2. Time to refill energy content- It takes ~10min to gas and go for long distance trip. It will take EV about 30min-60min to do so. (only applies for long dist trip).
3. after 100k battery warranty, you need to get extended warranty. It is more $ invested if you are keeping it over 100k.
Yes, engine and transmission can fail too, but engine and transmission will last longer with proper maintenance.
However, I am not planning to own it for over my lease period.
Also not [much of] an issue in the USA.
But EVs don't do well with range at high speeds.
The strangest feeling I had was riding in a P100 on an Autobahn. It accelerated very well and got going. Then at 130mph. Boom. The thing hit a brick wall and would go faster. Having to be scared of a VW Polo passing you while you have to hang out in the right lane is not a fun feeling (j/k...a Polo isn't that fast.... only the Polo GTI will hit a 142mph).
The batteries deplete fast when running them at high speeds. To be fair, driving a gasoline car at 155for any distance uses a lot of [expensive] gasoline. Its just quick to refill and get going again.
The first pro i saw..
A Tesla roadster at bandimere laying waste to all manner of corvettes, mustangs, Camaros, etc.
When a 12.X pops at bandimere for real street car, that is quick.
SideShow Bob
02-14-2022, 18:17
When you can buy a ?Beater? or ?Hooptie? EV at gasoline ?Beater? prices and that will last you 3 - 5 years and can make it a work week at 60 + miles a day and a few side trips without charging and cheap on maintenance, I will consider buying one. Until then, gasoline it is.
When you can buy a ?Beater? or ?Hooptie? EV at gasoline ?Beater? prices and that will last you 3 - 5 years and can make it a work week at 60 + miles a day and a few side trips without charging and cheap on maintenance, I will consider buying one. Until then, gasoline is is.
Under $5000 beater w/ high mileage, I will have to go with high MPG ICE vehicle as well at today's market.
Aloha_Shooter
02-14-2022, 18:26
2. See my other posts about this topic exactly. My wife and I take regular road trips all over the country in the summer months. This is a direct result of having Teslas as we rarely did it prior to owning them and certainly didn't do it for fun. This is a continually improving metric so between ranges going up and charge rates going up along with rapidly expanding Supercharger network this has become a pretty minimal difference unless you are the type of person who pulls a horse trailer, drives 2,000 miles in a single day and pisses in bottles versus stopping.
Let's not exaggerate. I've told you before that I regularly drive back from Tucson in a single day. Doing that via EV would turn the return into a 2-day trip. I take regular rest stops but I don't want to pend 45 minutes or more charging/fueling up.
I got an EV (not a Tesla) as a loaner one holiday weekend last summer (recent enough for you?). Thought this was great until the meter got down below 50 miles and I looked around for a place to recharge. I got to a public Type 3 charger and -- after waiting for 2 other people to get their hour charge in -- spent an hour getting the battery back up to about 1/3 capacity. It cost me about 25% more than 16 gallons of premium gas for less than half the mileage I could have got in the fun car. That decided me right then and there that I'm taking an EV -- even as a loaner -- until there is much wider availability of quicker charging or I'm in a house with its own Type 2 charger. Putting a Type 2 in my house would be relatively inexpensive but I have no need for one unless or until I decide to get an EV.
I'd certainly be more amenable to an EV if I were living back in Hawaii but of course there's no such thing as a long road trip there and there are environmental concerns there that aren't applicable here.
As far as point 1 goes, the fact of the matter is that you lose significant battery capacity in cold temperatures. That loss is far more than "slightly" decreased range -- the decrease may or may not be relevant depending on your driving during that period but you are really understating the effect. Similarly, you're overstating impact of preheating the car for 2-3 minutes by opening your app versus preheating a ICE car for a little bit longer (and not taking into account the relative effect on the vehicle's range after preheating). Again, if your driving pattern is short distances between recharges then the effect on the vehicle's range is irrelevant. If you have to worry about refilling an empty tank in the winter (I typically don't let the tank get that low in winter) versus recharging the battery at home every night, it's actually a plus for the EV but the driving pattern really matters.
In summary, I would say "not practical" is based on individual situation and NOT a misperception for most as you claim.
clodhopper
02-14-2022, 18:30
From the other thread:
1. Weather is very cold (lithium batteries are stored cold when they want to put batteries into "hibernation")
2. Long distance driving involved
3. Trailer towing or heavy loads (especially with long distances).
All prime issues for me. And add that I, not infrequently either, travel to remote locations that require an additional tank on the bed to get there and back. Part of my life might work an EV even with poor recharge options in rural weld county, but the other part is an absolute no-go at this time/technology.
The lack of used cars in the EV market is just a matter of time. Mostly only new available at the moment, but as time moves on, the owners who need that newest model will trade up and the used market will grow. And I suspect the EV market has a good selection of owners who absolutely need the newest out there to keep up with the Kardashians next door.
I cant wait till the hammered EV hoopties start showing up with Youtube DIY battery regen tricks and whatnot. That'll be awesome!
eddiememphis
02-14-2022, 18:40
I live in a condo. I do not have a garage. What will it cost to have chargers installed for 96 parking spots? Until then, where would I charge it?
I drive a lot doing home inspections so I would want a full charge every morning. The nearest charging station is four miles away. That is not practical for me.
I have an old Tacoma I have looked into converting to electric. I would love to do it but charging it is a problem.
Curious to know how long a Tesla can maintain 125+ without letting the magic smoke out
Curious to know how long a Tesla can maintain 125+ without letting the magic smoke out
The amount of times I have been able to sustain 125+ mph for more than 30 minutes was rare regardless of what type of car.
One day (It was a Sunday holiday with Monday holiday following), I could drive flat out as much as I wanted. I made Nuerburg to Basel in a very fast time. Much of the drive I was against the 155mph limiter. But that is very rare to be able to drive that far that fast.
I live in a condo. I do not have a garage. What will it cost to have chargers installed for 96 parking spots? Until then, where would I charge it?
I drive a lot doing home inspections so I would want a full charge every morning. The nearest charging station is four miles away. That is not practical for me.
I have an old Tacoma I have looked into converting to electric. I would love to do it but charging it is a problem.
Imagine inductive charging… pull up to a space and your car charges with no cord…
The amount of times I have been able to sustain 125+ mph for more than 30 minutes was rare regardless of what type of car.
One day (It was a Sunday holiday with Monday holiday following), I could drive flat out as much as I wanted. I made Nuerburg to Basel in a very fast time. Much of the drive I was against the 155mph limiter. But that is very rare to be able to drive that far that fast.
Yeah, like I said, just curious how long it takes for the angry pixies to get all toasty. I drive a pickup, so it's pretty rare that it gets that fast, but it will.
The current market of EVs is not practical for me. Wife and I have particular needs so neither are 90% of ICE vehicles.
Time is our most valuable commodity and I'm not going to spend 45 minutes to an hour getting less range than I can with a gasoline powered vehicle. I'm also not going to let the charging infrastructure dictate the path of my travel and add scheduling criteria.
People complain about gas prices but for a product that has to get pulled out of the ground, go through multiple refinery processes and be delivered by a semi it is still a cheap product. People complain about gas prices because of the evil oil companies and their capitalistic ways but Starbucks coffee comes out to about $35 a gallon and nobody gripes about that.
Even at today?s prices I bet I spend less than $150 a month on average for gas for two vehicles.
Personally, I have horrible luck with anything rechargeable so the thought of having a mode of transportation with the spirit of a Makita drill kind of freaks me out.
Also, with specific regards to Tesla, would it have killed them to put some sort of a grille on the front of their cars? I get it isn?t needed from a functional standpoint but at least it would give it a little style.
I wish we could order ICE car directoy from the manufacturer. But no, greedy dealers and thier paid off politicians have us paying over MSRP. $20k extra for anything decent.
I like this about Tesla. Order online at the price they advertise. No dealer markups, no dealer haggling.
Screw franchise laws. Repeal them for the good of the consumer.
People complain about gas prices but for a product that has to get pulled out of the ground, go through multiple refinery processes and be delivered by a semi it is still a cheap product. People complain about gas prices because of the evil oil companies and their capitalistic ways but Starbucks coffee comes out to about $35 a gallon and nobody gripes about that.
Even at today?s prices I bet I spend less than $150 a month on average for gas for two vehicles.
Personally, I have horrible luck with anything rechargeable so the thought of having a mode of transportation with the spirit of a Makita drill kind of freaks me out.
Also, with specific regards to Tesla, would it have killed them to put some sort of a grille on the front of their cars? I get it isn?t needed from a functional standpoint but at least it would give it a little style.
How much of the price of fuel is taxes? Quite a bit. They'll be coming for the EVs "not paying their fair share" soon enough.
I 'hear you' about the front of the new Teslas. The Model 3 just looks like it wasn't finished.
$150 mo at $ 3/gal
50gal / mo 2 car
25gal / mo per car
25gal /4 weeks
6.25 gal / per week per car seems very low.
My wife rarely go out and she put 10-11 gal per week.
How much of the price of fuel is taxes? Quite a bit. They'll be coming for the EVs "not paying their fair share" soon enough.
For sure. The government will find a way to get its cut on all of this electric vehicle stuff.
For sure. The government will find a way to get its cut on all of this electric vehicle stuff.
Co is already looking at a tax per mile model, so those of us that drive out of state often will get bent over twice unless we allow them to use a GPS tracker
My stepson got a Chevy Volt last year and loves it. His is a PHEV which I think has more adaptability than a full EV since it can run on the ICE engine as well as the electric. He says it generally stays in electric mode until he's got 25 miles or so then the engine kicks in. For 90% of around-town commuting the ICE engine never kicks in.
I do think ICE vehicles will eventually wither away although I don't think it will be as soon as many EV proponents would like.
The one thing I don't hear about is how and when we are going to upgrade the electrical generating capacity of the country at a time when we are shutting down coal and gas fired power plants. How much juice does it take to recharge an EV each night? Maybe the same as a small air conditioner, running anywhere between 10 - 14 hours at a time?
When only one car on the block is an EV that's a piece of cake for the existing generating capacity. But when it gets to 1 in 4 or 1 in 3 there's going to have to be an upgrade. And given that the power will be needed at night when people are sleeping, we're not going to get it with solar.
Then of course, there's the problem that not everybody lives in the suburbs. Millions of people live in apartments or condos where they have to park on the street. Think about any big Eastern city, NY, Boston, Philadelphia. Lots of people live in apartments or houses that have no parking structure or driveway and still own cars. Where do those people charge their EVs?
I foresee a cottage industry of building charging station/parking lots. Imagine a large parking lot like you'd see anywhere else, but every single space has a charging station in front of it. Given that your car will have an electronic "identity" there's likely not even any need to swipe a credit card. As soon as you plug in, the charging station will "know" who's account to charge and it can bill you for the hours of parking, too.
There are some interesting privacy aspects to that, too although the prevalence of smart phones might make that a moot issue.
A small percentage of people are talking about strain on the grid but this has been long since debunked as a concern. The data just doesn't support this being any kind of a real threat.
Also not [much of] an issue in the USA.
But EVs don't do well with range at high speeds.
The strangest feeling I had was riding in a P100 on an Autobahn. It accelerated very well and got going. Then at 130mph. Boom. The thing hit a brick wall and would go faster. Having to be scared of a VW Polo passing you while you have to hang out in the right lane is not a fun feeling (j/k...a Polo isn't that fast.... only the Polo GTI will hit a 142mph).
The batteries deplete fast when running them at high speeds. To be fair, driving a gasoline car at 155for any distance uses a lot of [expensive] gasoline. Its just quick to refill and get going again.
I assume you mean a P100D in which case they top out at 155mph. Having been that speed & well beyond multiple times in my life I can tell you that I have zero desire to come even close to that anymore so I really couldn't care any less than I do about a vehicle's terminal velocity as long as it's in the triple digits. 155mph more than meets that criteria for me.
The first pro i saw..
A Tesla roadster at bandimere laying waste to all manner of corvettes, mustangs, Camaros, etc.
When a 12.X pops at bandimere for real street car, that is quick.
Roadsters are ancient news. Hell, even my 2017 Model S is an old clapped out turd compared to what they make now. It'll do a respectable 0-60 blast in an eye-watering 2.28 seconds which earned it the fastest 0-60 Motor Trend Magazine had ever tested. Up until the Model S plaid came out last year. The quarter miles happens in 10's and all of those numbers are achievable in just about any condition by just about any driver. Perfectly happy coasting around town in silence too.
When you can buy a ?Beater? or ?Hooptie? EV at gasoline ?Beater? prices and that will last you 3 - 5 years and can make it a work week at 60 + miles a day and a few side trips without charging and cheap on maintenance, I will consider buying one. Until then, gasoline it is.
60+ miles per day on a work week? Why not just plug it in at night & have a full charge each day?
The biggest problem I see with new vehicles, and that includes EVs, is technology.
I ran into this with my 12-year old Hyundai. Mechanically, the car is excellent. The Infotainment/telematics in the system, however, is powered by 2G cellular technology. Navigation, Remote Assistance, Remote Locking/Unlocking, and Remote Start will be non-functional soon. If my vehicle received OTA updates, I'd be really screwed.
ICE vehicles can be viable for many decades. Unfortunately, the more technology that gets wrapped into the vehicles (all vehicles), they will not be viable for decades. The jury is out for how well these electro-techno wonders will endure over time. At some point, some will be left behind and will no longer be viable, as is technology in the rest of our lives.
60+ miles per day on a work week? Why not just plug it in at night & have a full charge each day?
Legit question as I know nothing about the subject.
If you made a habit of charging the battery when it was still half full would this affect the battery in a negative way over an extended time?
I am currently charging my battery when I had 51% full, because I still only have Level 1 charger (show charger). Level 2 charger is coming tomorrow. It is like similar to cell phone. I think fast charger gets the battery to lose capacity faster long run than frequent level 1 or 2 charging. Also, charging 100% vs 80-90% makes it huge difference.
My salesperson drives an EV, and he put his max charge at 80% to prolong the battery. He told me that many ev users do. He did that setting for me. Of course, I can change it back to 100% charge capacity. Very reason I usually charge my phone upto 80-90%.
At 90%, I will have about 215 miles. Enough to have comfortable round trip from Thornton to Olympic Training facility in Colorado Springs (87mi from my house).
Let's not exaggerate. I've told you before that I regularly drive back from Tucson in a single day. Doing that via EV would turn the return into a 2-day trip. I take regular rest stops but I don't want to pend 45 minutes or more charging/fueling up.
I got an EV (not a Tesla) as a loaner one holiday weekend last summer (recent enough for you?). Thought this was great until the meter got down below 50 miles and I looked around for a place to recharge. I got to a public Type 3 charger and -- after waiting for 2 other people to get their hour charge in -- spent an hour getting the battery back up to about 1/3 capacity. It cost me about 25% more than 16 gallons of premium gas for less than half the mileage I could have got in the fun car. That decided me right then and there that I'm taking an EV -- even as a loaner -- until there is much wider availability of quicker charging or I'm in a house with its own Type 2 charger. Putting a Type 2 in my house would be relatively inexpensive but I have no need for one unless or until I decide to get an EV.
I'd certainly be more amenable to an EV if I were living back in Hawaii but of course there's no such thing as a long road trip there and there are environmental concerns there that aren't applicable here.
As far as point 1 goes, the fact of the matter is that you lose significant battery capacity in cold temperatures. That loss is far more than "slightly" decreased range -- the decrease may or may not be relevant depending on your driving during that period but you are really understating the effect. Similarly, you're overstating impact of preheating the car for 2-3 minutes by opening your app versus preheating a ICE car for a little bit longer (and not taking into account the relative effect on the vehicle's range after preheating). Again, if your driving pattern is short distances between recharges then the effect on the vehicle's range is irrelevant. If you have to worry about refilling an empty tank in the winter (I typically don't let the tank get that low in winter) versus recharging the battery at home every night, it's actually a plus for the EV but the driving pattern really matters.
In summary, I would say "not practical" is based on individual situation and NOT a misperception for most as you claim.
I'm not sure why you assumed I was talking about you but... okay. I say misperception because even in that post you have an awful lot of misperceptions and have come to a blanket conclusion and are now spreading that information as if it was fact.
This idea that it takes 45min each stop and every stop isn't realistic. At least not in the right car. My stops in a Tesla at a Supercharger on road trips is probably 20min +/-5min. Some stops are shorter, some longer. Usually though, on our road trips, we set out in the morning whenever we wake up with a full charge. The first stop we make a couple of hours later is usually one of those 20min +/-5min stops I just described. This will usually get us another couple of hours down the road to the next Super charger stop. By then, it's lunch so we plug in and walk somewhere nearby to sit down and eat. Then, when we return (yes, it can be ~45min later at time) we're fully charged and ready to go. The afternoon segment of our trips look nearly identical to the morning leg I just described with dinner and then, if we're feeling up to it, another 2 hour leg before settling down somewhere for the night that has charging so we can repeat the same thing the next day. Keep in mind, this is in a car that maxes out at 300mph charge rates. The new versions of this same car are capable of Supercharging speeds exceeding 3x this rate. This is what I'm talking about about how fast this technology is advancing. Even the 2013, 2014 and 2015's we owned charged noticeably slower than this 2017.
I actually just bought a 2017 Tesla Model S P100D in Phoenix and drove it back. I left Phoenix @ 5:00pm and headed for the nearest In-N-Out burger before heading towards Fort Collins. I arrived at In-N-Out burger in Aurora at 3:00pm the next day. Keep in mind, I didn't exceed 5mph over any posted speed limit once. I wasn't in a hurry either just didn't really stop for anything other than charge stops, meals, bathroom, snacks and stretching my legs. I took a nap at one point that I think was 3-4 hours maybe. Forget exactly how long. I also paid WELL under $100 for all of my Supercharging stops for this trip. Supercharging is the most expensive way to charge one of these and it was still far cheaper than gas. The other 99% of the time I charge I do it at home and it cost pennies... literally. The point is, these trips aren't nearly as different as you're making them seem. We haven't even covered any of the advantages of having a Tesla and how much more enjoyable these trips are in one.
Your first hand experience with an EV was in a POS from the sounds of it. It's not fair to claim that's how they all are. This is one of the big things I hear all of the time. Someone had a crappy Leaf or whatever and assume that's how all EVs are. Not all EVs are created equally and judging the entire segment off of the performance of the worst examples isn't realistic. Your experience is exactly why the Supercharging network that Tesla has built out is so important. Or, even more important, if you owned it you likely wouldn't have to randomly find charging mid-day because it would be fully charged at the start of each day if that's what you wanted. You also don't need any special charging in your home for a Tesla.
No, you do not lose significant battery capacity in cold temperatures. These loss experienced in EVs other than Tesla tend to be higher so, again, you have to separate manufacturers of EVs just like you do every other car made. I still don't understand what some look at all EVs as the same no matter what. Tesla has a patented method for battery thermal management. The batteries themselves are kept at a temperature at all times (even when not being driven) that is far more efficient. The method by which this is achieved uses very little energy. In my real world tests, I get roughly 20% lower efficiency in the winter than I do the summer in my Teslas. People who are anti-EV right away say "See?!" but they don't bother comparing to the other option: ICE vehicles. In my years driving ICE vehicles in Colorado I would experience a similar 20% decrease in efficiency as I always tracked my MPG with every tank of gas. If you compare apples to apples you will find that the two technologies aren't all that different in this area... assuming you get the right one.
Talking about preheating a vehicle... These aren't comparable. I can walk out to my Tesla in the morning and, even if I don't precondition the car at all, the car is comfortable immediately. This is because they use resistive heat and are producing heat immediately. Don't try to tell me that on a cold morning an ICE vehicle is making warm air in 2-3 minutes because I know better. I drove for far too many decades in the winter in Colorado and Nebraska to not have extensive experience with how long this takes in various situations. The Tesla wins this every time and it's not even a competition.
Again, if you don't want one I'm not here to convince you otherwise. I just wanted people to have real data with which to make their decision. Choosing what vehicle you buy specifically for less than 1% of it's intended use is a sure fire way to buy the wrong vehicle for other 99% of the intended use.
From the other thread:
All prime issues for me. And add that I, not infrequently either, travel to remote locations that require an additional tank on the bed to get there and back. Part of my life might work an EV even with poor recharge options in rural weld county, but the other part is an absolute no-go at this time/technology.
The lack of used cars in the EV market is just a matter of time. Mostly only new available at the moment, but as time moves on, the owners who need that newest model will trade up and the used market will grow. And I suspect the EV market has a good selection of owners who absolutely need the newest out there to keep up with the Kardashians next door.
I cant wait till the hammered EV hoopties start showing up with Youtube DIY battery regen tricks and whatnot. That'll be awesome!
Don't forget, electricity is more ubiquitous than gas stations. See my direct responses to that post for more details. We're just conditioned to see the gas stations on every corner in town but when you get out to the sticks I see lots of places with electricity even when no gas stations are present for miles.
I am currently charging my battery when I had 51% full, because I still only have Level 1 charger (show charger). Level 2 charger is coming tomorrow. It is like similar to cell phone. I think fast charger gets the battery to lose capacity faster long run than frequent level 1 or 2 charging. Also, charging 100% vs 80-90% makes it huge difference.
My salesperson drives an EV, and he put his max charge at 80% to prolong the battery. He told me that many ev users do. He did that setting for me. Of course, I can change it back to 100% charge capacity. Very reason I usually charge my phone upto 80-90%.
At 90%, I will have about 215 miles. Enough to have comfortable round trip from Thornton to Olympic Training facility in Colorado Springs (87mi from my house).
Can you see all of the capacity of the battery?
The reason I ask is that I recall a while back that Tesla was building cars with the same battery pack but you had to pay extra to get the extra range. During a hurricane, they allowed owners in the path to have the extra range 'for free' in order to get out of harms way. So...even if the indicator is saying "100%", is it possible there's some cushion placed there by the manufacturer to prevent charging right up to the edge of full capacity on a regular basis?
I live in a condo. I do not have a garage. What will it cost to have chargers installed for 96 parking spots? Until then, where would I charge it?
I drive a lot doing home inspections so I would want a full charge every morning. The nearest charging station is four miles away. That is not practical for me.
I have an old Tacoma I have looked into converting to electric. I would love to do it but charging it is a problem.
I never said that EVs were practical for everyone. If you live in an apartment and they don't provide outlets or you don't have anything nearby then there's not much you can do. Knowing what I know now though and how much I save and just generally never wanting to go to a gas station again I would actively select a place that offered charging in some manner. It all comes down to what your priorities are and you make decisions based on these. Doesn't it easy or even viable in some cases but it may be possible. If not, then an EV may not be for you. At least not right now anyway. As they gain popularity you see more and more apartment complexes and similar structures starting to offer it though to attract more business. This will continue happening at a higher rate as the adoption rate continues increasing.
Don't forget, electricity is more ubiquitous than gas stations. See my direct responses to that post for more details. We're just conditioned to see the gas stations on every corner in town but when you get out to the sticks I see lots of places with electricity even when no gas stations are present for miles.
Ubiquitous does not equal accessible. Were there accessible charging stations in the sticks with no gas stations present for miles?
Curious to know how long a Tesla can maintain 125+ without letting the magic smoke out
125mph sustained? No problem but.... why?
That's another advantage to these Teslas because you can hammer on them all day every day and they just keep going. It's just an giant electric motor after all. No transmission or the absurd amount of moving/spinning parts that can grenade at any moment like on an ICE vehicle.
I can't tell you how many parts and cars I broke at speeds much less than 25mph and with much less abuse. These things are engineered to take the abuse more so than any other vehicle I've ever owned. The simplistic nature of it's parts list (or nearly complete lack thereof) helps with this as well. A fraction of the parts and nearly zero moving parts increases reliability.
Imagine inductive charging… pull up to a space and your car charges with no cord…
This is some of the tech we're going to be seeing soon enough. I doubt apt complexes would pop for it anytime soon as it's not going to be cheap for quite some time but advancements like this and plenty others in this segment will revolutionize how we look at transportation.
The current market of EVs is not practical for me. Wife and I have particular needs so neither are 90% of ICE vehicles.
Time is our most valuable commodity and I'm not going to spend 45 minutes to an hour getting less range than I can with a gasoline powered vehicle. I'm also not going to let the charging infrastructure dictate the path of my travel and add scheduling criteria.
Tesla's new Model S has over 400 miles of range on a single charge and can replace 80% of that range in like 10-15 minutes.
People complain about gas prices but for a product that has to get pulled out of the ground, go through multiple refinery processes and be delivered by a semi it is still a cheap product. People complain about gas prices because of the evil oil companies and their capitalistic ways but Starbucks coffee comes out to about $35 a gallon and nobody gripes about that.
Even at today?s prices I bet I spend less than $150 a month on average for gas for two vehicles.
Personally, I have horrible luck with anything rechargeable so the thought of having a mode of transportation with the spirit of a Makita drill kind of freaks me out.
Also, with specific regards to Tesla, would it have killed them to put some sort of a grille on the front of their cars? I get it isn?t needed from a functional standpoint but at least it would give it a little style.
I don't gripe about the price of Starbucks because I don't purchase it.
Our first full month of owning a Tesla our electricity bill went up $14. Total. For the month.
Makita? Shoulda bought a Dewalt. lol (No but seriously, Lithium ion tools really aren't the same)
Funny you mention a grill because the first 5 years of the Tesla Model S had a fake nose cone on them. This was because focus groups said people wouldn't accept the smooth front end. We had a few of those and I can't tell you how much more I like the look of our newer ones that ditched that fake nose cone for the original design. It's so much cleaner and you adjust. Now I see something like the new BMWs with those gigantic hideous kidney grills and have to fight back throwing up in my mouth. Style is in the eye of the beholder and I love the front clip of the Model S. The Model 3 and Y doesn't look as good to me but... that's just my opinion.
I wish we could order ICE car directoy from the manufacturer. But no, greedy dealers and thier paid off politicians have us paying over MSRP. $20k extra for anything decent.
I like this about Tesla. Order online at the price they advertise. No dealer markups, no dealer haggling.
Screw franchise laws. Repeal them for the good of the consumer.
There are negatives to this too that I can elaborate on once I have more time so it's not all a bowl full of cherries.
More later...
125mph sustained? No problem but.... why?
That's another advantage to these Teslas because you can hammer on them all day every day and they just keep going. It's just an giant electric motor after all. No transmission or the absurd amount of moving/spinning parts that can grenade at any moment like on an ICE vehicle.
I can't tell you how many parts and cars I broke at speeds much less than 25mph and with much less abuse. These things are engineered to take the abuse more so than any other vehicle I've ever owned. The simplistic nature of it's parts list (or nearly complete lack thereof) helps with this as well. A fraction of the parts and nearly zero moving parts increases reliability.
Just curious how long it would do it. It's going to see a heat issue running that hard, just was wondering how long it would take before that heat presents itself. I'm not talking about absolutely grenading, as I'm sure Elon has something to shut it down before it kills itself.
The biggest problem I see with new vehicles, and that includes EVs, is technology.
I ran into this with my 12-year old Hyundai. Mechanically, the car is excellent. The Infotainment/telematics in the system, however, is powered by 2G cellular technology. Navigation, Remote Assistance, Remote Locking/Unlocking, and Remote Start will be non-functional soon. If my vehicle received OTA updates, I'd be really screwed.
ICE vehicles can be viable for many decades. Unfortunately, the more technology that gets wrapped into the vehicles (all vehicles), they will not be viable for decades. The jury is out for how well these electro-techno wonders will endure over time. At some point, some will be left behind and will no longer be viable, as is technology in the rest of our lives.
Yes and no.
Tesla offers a 3G to 4G/LTE upgrade for it's legacy cars. It's like $250 installed in most cases. Maybe even less by now. Tesla also offers a complete MCU upgrade as well. They can take the MCU (the gigantic screen you see is the display attached to the main control unit) out of an older car and for like $1,500 you have the latest greatest whiz-bang hardware capable of nearly every new feature. No other manufacturer offers any of that let along regular and free OTAs that are constantly improving and bringing new features.
Legit question as I know nothing about the subject.
If you made a habit of charging the battery when it was still half full would this affect the battery in a negative way over an extended time?
Nope, not at all. Like I mentioned previously, most of the rules pertaining to charge cycles and things you're used to with a smart phone or rechargeable hand tool don't apply to these batteries. They did a disservice by calling them lithium ion because the chemistry on one of these is dramatically different and much of what they engineered is to combat things like what you're talking about.
I am currently charging my battery when I had 51% full, because I still only have Level 1 charger (show charger). Level 2 charger is coming tomorrow. It is like similar to cell phone. I think fast charger gets the battery to lose capacity faster long run than frequent level 1 or 2 charging. Also, charging 100% vs 80-90% makes it huge difference.
My salesperson drives an EV, and he put his max charge at 80% to prolong the battery. He told me that many ev users do. He did that setting for me. Of course, I can change it back to 100% charge capacity. Very reason I usually charge my phone upto 80-90%.
At 90%, I will have about 215 miles. Enough to have comfortable round trip from Thornton to Olympic Training facility in Colorado Springs (87mi from my house).
Sort of but not really. Many EV users do set the limit to 80% but the impact of 90% or 95% is negligible at best. I can go into more detail on this as I get more time but just know that you shouldn't lose any sleep at all on your state of charge or charge rate. These things are built to handle charge speeds over 10x what you will throw at it at home so the different speeds of a/c options really don't play a role. I wouldn't recommend charging to 100% and leaving it at max capacity for long periods but that's about the only thing you can do that _might_ have an effect. Just go about life, charge when you need it and don't waste any time thinking about it.
Can you see all of the capacity of the battery?
The reason I ask is that I recall a while back that Tesla was building cars with the same battery pack but you had to pay extra to get the extra range. During a hurricane, they allowed owners in the path to have the extra range 'for free' in order to get out of harms way. So...even if the indicator is saying "100%", is it possible there's some cushion placed there by the manufacturer to prevent charging right up to the edge of full capacity on a regular basis?
The way that was presented to you has a bit of a negative slant. For a period, Tesla made only one larger pack. To keep the production lines flowing they software locked the maximum capacity of these packs for cars that were sold for less. During periods of hurricanes, wildfires and other natural disasters Tesla not only unlocked all of these software locks w/o anyone asking but they often make Superchargers free too. Crazy how some media outlets spin this to a negative though. In the instance where packs are software locked they still offer the same range the customer paid for but they also get lots of performance benefits to charge rates, charge curves, acceleration, long term degradation and all sorts of things. In short, if you can choose it, you want a larger pack that is software locked. This is preferable in just about every metric. Tesla has made many different size packs over the years and some have been used in different cars for different reasons and many have different chemistry.
Can you see all of the capacity of the battery?
The reason I ask is that I recall a while back that Tesla was building cars with the same battery pack but you had to pay extra to get the extra range. During a hurricane, they allowed owners in the path to have the extra range 'for free' in order to get out of harms way. So...even if the indicator is saying "100%", is it possible there's some cushion placed there by the manufacturer to prevent charging right up to the edge of full capacity on a regular basis?
Capacity is usually in Miles, but I am not sure I can change it to KWh yet.
Full capacity is 239 miles or 64kwh. So, if it is on mileage as a capacity, I would use average miles to kwh. However, it does have instant power consumption as kW.
I am currently on a winter mode, so it loses few to several miles. When I turn on the heater, I lose about 3-5miles. When I turn it off immediately, I gain those back (updates instantly).
Kia Niro - EV information screen showing Instant Power
https://youtu.be/LMOzinvsOec
Kia Niro change in charge max capacity
https://youtu.be/VW2hMwg23aU
Ubiquitous does not equal accessible. Were there accessible charging stations in the sticks with no gas stations present for miles?
As I've stated numerous times now, you don't need a "Charging station" to charge your car if you buy the right car. I've got a duffle bag full of adapters I made and I can charge just about anywhere in the country where there is electricity. Some take longer than others but planning ahead will alleviate any issues this could cause. There's still electricity in far more places than gas stations is the point.
Just curious how long it would do it. It's going to see a heat issue running that hard, just was wondering how long it would take before that heat presents itself. I'm not talking about absolutely grenading, as I'm sure Elon has something to shut it down before it kills itself.
Heat mitigation is a much larger concern with an ICE making lots of power. An ICE will put approximately 30% of it's potential energy into forward momentum with much of the balance being lost to heat as well as other factors. Teslas in particular put more like 90% or more of their energy into forward momentum. This means that next to zero is lost to heat so even if you double a number that is nearly zero... you probably get the point.
Great-Kazoo
02-14-2022, 21:20
Out of curiosity, are you talking new? If someone is buying a new car and looking for advice I'm not your guy because that deprecation hit you take is just brutal on ANY brand. If you're buying a new car (given the aforementioned rate of depreciation) you have FAR bigger financial concerns than annual fuel bill versus electricity bill.
That said, if you find a good deal on used one you can find a great car for a fraction of what they cost new. In our case, I've actually bought/sold seven of them used now. Not only do we not lose money but we actually make a few bucks. I realize that not everybody will want to go through this so I'm not suggesting it's for everyone.
I tell people that they can conservatively estimate paying 1/10th in electricity than they do gas to cover the same miles. That delta is even greater now that gas prices are crazy but it's a nice round number that makes mental estimations easy. We save right around $4k per year, per vehicle. I spread sheeted this out years ago when gas prices were $2.18/gal so you can only imagine how much we save now that that price has blown up. We also drive less than average so that savings would also go up relative how many miles you put on your vehicle. Bonus, you never ride that fuel price roller coaster again.
Naturally, whatever you determine to spend on the front end to acquire said vehicle will impact that "savings" figure but it's not nothing. Sock that money away for a "rainy day" and you can have a nice repair account built up by the time the 8-year battery pack and drive motor warranty expires should you need to replace them.
I wouldn't suggest buying an EV strictly for the gas/oil savings but... it's another entry in the "for" column for sure.
I will never buy a used EV, not when most are up in the mid 75-80K mileage wise, with cost of a replacement battery not worth opening my wallet for. The 2nd reason for not owning 1, leg room. Until a ev mfg makes a very friendly, ADA leg room unit, it can sit on the showroom.
3rd . Those vehicles work for a family of 2, who travel moderately light. For us a mini van with cargo topper is still not enough room, when we rarely return home empty handed.
I'll wait till i'm too old to do my own services & repairs on what we drive, now.
Heat mitigation is a much larger concern with an ICE making lots of power. An ICE will put approximately 30% of it's potential energy into forward momentum with much of the balance being lost to heat as well as other factors. Teslas in particular put more like 90% or more of their energy into forward momentum. This means that next to zero is lost to heat so even if you double a number that is nearly zero... you probably get the point.
True, but ICE vehicles are built with larger cooling systems in place since they so generate much more heat. But at 130mph, there's a metric fuckton of air moving through the radiator on my F150, and around the trans/diffs/etc.
Now I've never actually inspected a tesla or anything, but I would assume that it's a relatively flat bottom, so not much moving around down there, and has a small radiator stuffed somewhere to account for cooling the battery and whatever control systems are in there. I would ASSUME that the discharge rate needed to propel the vehicle would heat the pack up a bit. Same for running back to back launches in Ludacris mode
How much of the price of fuel is taxes? Quite a bit. They'll be coming for the EVs "not paying their fair share" soon enough.
I 'hear you' about the front of the new Teslas. The Model 3 just looks like it wasn't finished.
Read an article today that Texas Republicans are looking to do just that.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
The way that was presented to you has a bit of a negative slant. For a period, Tesla made only one larger pack. To keep the production lines flowing they software locked the maximum capacity of these packs for cars that were sold for less. During periods of hurricanes, wildfires and other natural disasters Tesla not only unlocked all of these software locks w/o anyone asking but they often make Superchargers free too. Crazy how some media outlets spin this to a negative though. In the instance where packs are software locked they still offer the same range the customer paid for but they also get lots of performance benefits to charge rates, charge curves, acceleration, long term degradation and all sorts of things. In short, if you can choose it, you want a larger pack that is software locked. This is preferable in just about every metric. Tesla has made many different size packs over the years and some have been used in different cars for different reasons and many have different chemistry.
A lot of gas stations only have two tanks - 85 and 91. Yet they still have 85, 87, and 91 at the pump.
They simply pump 91 when someone selects 87.
People who complain about bigger packs being installed (and then simply software limited) are a lot like people who would complain about getting 91 when they selected 87. Lol.
There are negatives to this too that I can elaborate on once I have more time so it's not all a bowl full of cherries.
More later...
Some now such as servicing... but when EV becomes more common and right to repair is implemented fully, after market parts and 3rd party independent service centers will come and replace independent ICE shops and there will not be a need for the ICE dealer style networks and con artists.
Dealers can suck it.
I assume you mean a P100D in which case they top out at 155mph. Having been that speed & well beyond multiple times in my life I can tell you that I have zero desire to come even close to that anymore so I really couldn't care any less than I do about a vehicle's terminal velocity as long as it's in the triple digits. 155mph more than meets that criteria for me.
The P100D I was riding in (was on the A98 before there were limits put on) hit the top speed at 200kmh. It did not go anywhere near 250kmh.
People who complain about bigger packs being installed (and then simply software limited) are a lot like people who would complain about getting 91 when they selected 87. Lol.
Not really. If you paid for 87 octane but we?re given 91 then you reap whatever benefits come with the higher octane.
A better analogy would be buying a truck with a 36 gallon fuel tank but it has a baffle installed so it only holds 28 gallons and reduces the range of the vehicle.
I am assuming if someone had an electric vehicle capable of more range that was software limited that there is some way to jailbreak or hack it to unlock the additional battery potential?
Not really. If you paid for 87 octane but we?re given 91 then you reap whatever benefits come with the higher octane.
A better analogy would be buying a truck with a 36 gallon fuel tank but it has a baffle installed so it only holds 28 gallons and reduces the range of the vehicle.
I am assuming if someone had an electric vehicle capable of more range that was software limited that there is some way to jailbreak or hack it to unlock the additional battery potential?
As I mentioned before. Under or overcharging a lithium battery degrades. The software will likely limit charge / discharge to somewhere around 3.6v to 4.0v. lithium ion chemistry generally allows up to 4.3v in a cell. Or approximately 10% more charge. But cycle life goes down.
So yes the cars are likely running around with “more range” in the batteries. And yes they can likely be jail broken. But the cost will be battery life. It is the same with pulling more current (power) out of the batteries. You affect life span of the battery pack with rapid discharges (and rapid charges).
Your best method is to stay between 3.8v and 4.0v and charge as slowly as you can to maximize battery lifespan.
If I were a marketing person and could have my way for and EV (which I am not and cannot respectively) what I would request.
An EV pickup similar to the Rivan or F150 Lighting but with the addition of a propane powered generator. Think 5-7kw?
That way when the truck is needed for long distance or out in the mountains or away from power the generator would be run to recharge batteries and the generator could be run while driving long distances to keep the batteries charged.
But most of the time the truck would be a plug in EV.
Yes it is a hybrid of sorts, but one where the car is still EV and the "hybrid" is only used when needed to charge batteries. It would have to be engaged by the driver.
Tesla's new Model S has over 400 miles of range on a single charge and can replace 80% of that range in like 10-15 minutes.
Source please for the 80% of 400 mile range in 10-15 minutes. I can't find that, even looking at Tesla's information. Maybe 50% of range in 15 minutes using a Supercharger.
New Model S starts at $94,990. Sedans don't work for us. Really expensive sedans really don't work for us.
I had 50 to 51% on the battery last night and charged it till 8am. It went upto 78% 211 miles w/ slow level 1 charger.
I think 211 miles will be more than enough through sat Aurora trip.
I put ~8.7 gal (91, $30) on the other car yesterday, and it will probably get me about 165miles.
HBARleatherneck
02-15-2022, 10:08
I cant imagine an electric vehicle fitting into my life. I have nothing against them. I have never even seen one. However Im sure they are going to be our future. Everyday technology evolves. Batteries are getting better, things are getting smaller. Maybe the technology will eventually work for very rural living. Maybe it will work for real work. Right now my Ram Chassis Cab Cummins can tow over 25,000#(new one says 35,000) and has a 74 gallon fuel capacity. Which means if I had an assistant to help drive, we could drive a fully loaded trailer to San Diego without refueling. When that is able to be accomplished by an electric vehicle, the working world will accept them.
To be fair I have never owned a car. Never will, unless it's a 57 Chevy Belair, 55-59 Tbird, 32 or 34 Ford coupe,etc
Source please for the 80% of 400 mile range in 10-15 minutes. I can't find that, even looking at Tesla's information. Maybe 50% of range in 15 minutes using a Supercharger.
New Model S starts at $94,990. Sedans don't work for us. Really expensive sedans really don't work for us.
That has been an issue with EVs.
They are "premium" cars charging more than ICE cars. Really, based upon manufacturing costs, EVs should be lower, but subsidies have pushed prices up and novelty has them higher.
EVs will be more popular when prices is the same (or lower) than ICE vehicles without subsidies.
As I've stated numerous times now, you don't need a "Charging station" to charge your car if you buy the right car. I've got a duffle bag full of adapters I made and I can charge just about anywhere in the country where there is electricity. Some take longer than others but planning ahead will alleviate any issues this could cause. There's still electricity in far more places than gas stations is the point.
What types of places do you go when you need a charge and there is no dedicated charging station? Are people/businesses open to letting you charge your car? Are they charging for the juice?
If I were a marketing person and could have my way for and EV (which I am not and cannot respectively) what I would request.
An EV pickup similar to the Rivan or F150 Lighting but with the addition of a propane powered generator. Think 5-7kw?
That way when the truck is needed for long distance or out in the mountains or away from power the generator would be run to recharge batteries and the generator could be run while driving long distances to keep the batteries charged.
But most of the time the truck would be a plug in EV.
Yes it is a hybrid of sorts, but one where the car is still EV and the "hybrid" is only used when needed to charge batteries. It would have to be engaged by the driver.
Similar in concept to a Chevy Volt. Electric drive train with a gasoline generator to eliminate range anxiety.
As I've stated numerous times now, you don't need a "Charging station" to charge your car if you buy the right car. I've got a duffle bag full of adapters I made and I can charge just about anywhere in the country where there is electricity. Some take longer than others but planning ahead will alleviate any issues this could cause. There's still electricity in far more places than gas stations is the point.
What's the point of your "point"? I haven't needed to knock on someone's door in the sticks where the lights are on to ask for gas, so why would I need to ask to borrow an outlet where there's no charger?
The only electricity that matters in this conversation is where it is useful for EV owners, not everywhere that it exists and it isn't. Please keep the conversation relevant.
Perhaps you can explain why you have "...a duffle bag full of adapters I made..."?
I have a pretty hard price limit on vehicles. I have never spent over $25K on any vehicle I?ve owned. I guess if there comes a day when used Teslas with fresh batteries and motors can be had for that price I can reevaluate if an EV is feasible for me.
I tried to get a Taycan as loaner car.
Dealer wouldn't give me one they said they are having issues with them (software issues) and don't want to give people a bad impression by using as loaners. At least they were honest. The service department said "wait a while if you want one" (the sales guys would probably say otherwise)
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/porsche-taycan-turbo-s-drag-test/
Look at how quick the Tesla and Taycan are...
Not too shabby for a green automobile..
But one thing to notice. The Model S in Ludacris mode does 0-60 in 2.3 seconds. Quarter mile is 10.51@ 125. That means at higher speeds it falling on its face. Look at the car above it. 10.48@139.7. That is closer to the speed a mid 10 second car should be hitting. The EVs are torque machines but cant keep up the HP on the top end.
Of course there is the argument that in the USA... all you need it 0-80 mph and the electric cars excel there.
One thing an EV will never do..
Ignite the senses like a nice V12, Desmo-twin, a big block V8. (one could also argue that potato-potato-potato is also in that mix with the senses).
The sound and feel cannot be duplicated.
This was in the news today..
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/future-lamborghinis-air-electric
"What it would allow the brand to continue to deliver the aural experience many exotic sports car buyers expect, which can't be provided by near silent electric motors, making its cars arguably even more exotic in the future."
One thing an EV will never do..
Ignite the senses like a nice V12, Desmo-twin, a big block V8. (one could also argue that potato-potato-potato is also in that mix with the senses).
The sound and feel cannot be duplicated.
This was in the news today..
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/future-lamborghinis-air-electric
"What it would allow the brand to continue to deliver the aural experience many exotic sports car buyers expect, which can't be provided by near silent electric motors, making its cars arguably even more exotic in the future."
BMW i4 M50 makes anie noise. LoL
Xring is planning to review automobile on YouTube with new car channel.
Engine sound from ev. Hahaha
https://youtu.be/0KaHYo37Qd0
Xring announcing new car channel
https://youtu.be/DKISN6IcD9E
Engine sound from ev. Hahaha
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-recall-579000-us-vehicles-boombox-noise-hazard/
"The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says on its website Thursday that the cars and SUVs have what Tesla calls a "Boombox" function that allows drivers to play sounds while the vehicles are moving. This violates federal safety standards that require pedestrian warning noises for electric cars, which make little noise when traveling, the agency says."
https://youtu.be/0KaHYo37Qd0
Don't trust anything from a license plate that has the letters "NL" on the left.
That stands for "nur links". Translation ("only left") What that means is this person feels entitled to drive on an autobahn at say 120kmh in the left lane for 300km with moving right as required by law to let actual traffic by. Normally they have a travel trailer behind them (with potatoes in it) and can manage to go under 100kmh in the left lane all the way to Swiss Border on their way to Italy....
Don't trust anything from a license plate that has the letters "NL" on the left.
That stands for "nur links". Translation ("only left") What that means is this person feels entitled to drive on an autobahn at say 120kmh in the left lane for 300km with moving right as required by law to let actual traffic by. Normally they have a travel trailer behind them (with potatoes in it) and can manage to go under 100kmh in the left lane all the way to Swiss Border on their way to Italy....
Something new I've heard today.
I've been to Germany around 2002, and I did not know about that. Of course, I was there for about 8 days only.
There are more review for i4 M50.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=i4+m50
I just do not like any vehicle "models" (ICE or EV) which does not participate in motor racing putting "M" or "AMG" stuff on it. At least need to be a safety car for a motor race.
OtterbatHellcat
02-15-2022, 13:35
Respectfully, I can say I'll never own an electric vehicle.
I will never buy a used EV, not when most are up in the mid 75-80K mileage wise, with cost of a replacement battery not worth opening my wallet for. The 2nd reason for not owning 1, leg room. Until a ev mfg makes a very friendly, ADA leg room unit, it can sit on the showroom.
3rd . Those vehicles work for a family of 2, who travel moderately light. For us a mini van with cargo topper is still not enough room, when we rarely return home empty handed.
I'll wait till i'm too old to do my own services & repairs on what we drive, now.
Never is a pretty definitive length of time. I'm curious why you take a stance of "never" on a used EV. You can get used EVs of any year and mileage just like any other car. The more miles, generally speaking, the more you save over what they cost new. Lots of people are terrified of used EVs because of the reasons you mentioned but they fail to factory how much you save by buying used in the first place. With Teslas, for instance, they come with an 8-year warranty that transfers free from owner to owner. I've found a sweet spot in cars that are 4-5 years old or so that still have half of that warranty remaining and some even have some of the bumper-to-bumper warranty remaining as well. So... you're covered for major repairs for several years on a vehicle that cost you a fraction of what they were new. If you buy a used one with 4-5 years left on the warranty and throw that $4-$5k in a savings account until your warranty is expired you'll have enough to buy a new one even at the highest price if it fails the day after the warranty expires. It won't and you also don't HAVE to drop $20k to replace the battery pack. There are lots of 3rd party options out there that can fix your Tesla battery pack for a couple of grand in most cases I've seen. Pretty high tech stuff they do too so I wouldn't sweat it not being a solid solution. In the meantime, that $20k is just building interest rather than burning up (literally) in the form of gas/oil costs.
No idea on the ADA leg room requirements but I know a Model S has lots of leg room. Much more than that of the Model 3 and just more room in general as well. You can educate me on this aspect as I know very little.
As for room, you'd be pretty surprised with how much storage is in a Tesla Model S. It's substantial. People are always amazed by how much crap we can cram into one if need be. Depending on what you plan to haul, it may even offer more/better storage than a minivan. This is more case by case basis but I can tell you that, with the rear seats folded flat, the rear storage area on a Model S is absurd since it's a hatchback even though it looks like a sedan. you also have the lower hatch storage and the frunk area too.
True, but ICE vehicles are built with larger cooling systems in place since they so generate much more heat. But at 130mph, there's a metric fuckton of air moving through the radiator on my F150, and around the trans/diffs/etc.
Now I've never actually inspected a tesla or anything, but I would assume that it's a relatively flat bottom, so not much moving around down there, and has a small radiator stuffed somewhere to account for cooling the battery and whatever control systems are in there. I would ASSUME that the discharge rate needed to propel the vehicle would heat the pack up a bit. Same for running back to back launches in Ludacris mode
Tesla drive motors have their own cooling and it's not really an issue ever that I've heard of. I remember seeing something years ago about how they torture tested these drive motors and what they're asked to do in the car is many, many, many times less.
Teslas have radiators as well to exchange heat, when necessary. It's pretty genius the way it works actually... they have but a single heating/cooling system that manages every aspect of heating/cooling of the car. Unlike the three systems that most ICE cars have it's a single system which cuts down on complexity significantly. One system with a series of check balls and valves to make the magic happen regardless of if the pack is hot or cold and you're calling for the opposite in the cabin.
Some now such as servicing... but when EV becomes more common and right to repair is implemented fully, after market parts and 3rd party independent service centers will come and replace independent ICE shops and there will not be a need for the ICE dealer style networks and con artists.
Dealers can suck it.
Service is the biggest problem I have with Tesla. Something like 80% of the problems can be repaired by a mobile tech. If your issue falls into this category, it's magical. Truly. Every car repair experience should be this way. You literally open the app, select service, choose from a drop down and then pick a date & time. They come right to your home, work, wherever and fix your car right there. No extra charge or anything. It's truly remarkable.
For as good as the mobile service is, the service center experience is equally horrific. It's a complete cluster and that's if you're lucky enough to have one nearby. Everyone who asks us about Tesla I usually lead with this information. They used to have the best customer service ever in the car segment but, once they decided to become profitable, it was the first thing to do. It's been on a steady decline since and, despite Elon saying he's away and they'll work on it... it's broken systematically. They have zero real desire to actually fix. Before you say I'm just expecting too much of customer service let me hit you with two widely known facts: Tesla has NO customer facing phone number. None. You have no way to escalate your issue to a Supervisor or manager if the rep at the SC who is helping you isn't actually helping you.
It's funny that people want to make up negative stuff to try to slander Tesla when this is a very real issue and is incredibly easy to point out. That said, for as bad as the customer service is overall, the cars are equally amazing. We live with it for now. Once better options come along we may bounce. So far nothing is even close though.
The P100D I was riding in (was on the A98 before there were limits put on) hit the top speed at 200kmh. It did not go anywhere near 250kmh.
Something was wrong with that car. I've never heard of a 125mph speed limited Tesla Model S P100D.
They do 155mph and Tesla has no interest on restricting that. That's one of the beautiful aspects of Tesla in fact, they don't believe in the nannies that the other manufacturers do. Want to use your screen while the car is in motion? Go for it. Want to drive the car around with the hatch or a door open? Have at it! I appreciate when something I paid for let me do what I want rather than endless restrictions.
In fact, the new versions already do well over that and, once they sort out the bugs, will update the cars to be be capable of 200mph.
Not really. If you paid for 87 octane but we?re given 91 then you reap whatever benefits come with the higher octane.
A better analogy would be buying a truck with a 36 gallon fuel tank but it has a baffle installed so it only holds 28 gallons and reduces the range of the vehicle.
I am assuming if someone had an electric vehicle capable of more range that was software limited that there is some way to jailbreak or hack it to unlock the additional battery potential?
Yeah, some of those 3rd party outfits I mentioned previously can do exactly that. They have ways to get root access and do all sorts of things. I know one in particular will sell larger packs to people and even has a handy spreadsheet of what each model will cost based on the battery that's in them. People are even able to pay a little extra to make non Performance cars performance models and other crazy upgrades that Tesla said would be available "someday" many years ago. Of course this voids your warranty but if you have a car that needs a $15k pack and it's already out of warranty... options like this are incredible. Lots of happy people who had an early (2012, 2013) 60kWh car that paid for a 85kWh pack and the air suspension required to carry it. Newer cars have the proper suspension and other things in place already but it's still nice to be able to do those things even if they aren't sanctioned by Tesla.
Source please for the 80% of 400 mile range in 10-15 minutes. I can't find that, even looking at Tesla's information. Maybe 50% of range in 15 minutes using a Supercharger.
New Model S starts at $94,990. Sedans don't work for us. Really expensive sedans really don't work for us.
Typo. That was supposed to say 50% (the 5 is right under the 8 on a 10key) in like 10-15 minutes. That's still going to put about 200 miles on the car in a pretty rapid rate and will get you to your next stop in most instances. As the pack reaches higher SoC (State of Charge) the charge rates start to taper to protect the battery. That's why, when traveling it's better to live in the bottom half of the battery than in the top half. Just to bring it full circle, it will take you about 30-minutes to recover the 80% that I stated previously. All of those numbers are still pretty staggering when you think of where we were not all that long ago. They keep improving too at a pretty rapid rate so whatever we're discussing now will be old news next year.
I can tell you that, from first hand experience, you're not going to be running a stop watch at your Supercharging sessions so it really is a non-issue. You start to plan and go about your road trips differently. You start to see what is around in the immediate area, catch up on emails/text messages or (my wife's personal favorite) take a quick nap. We actually camp in ours during road trips (like I said, rear seats fold flat and a queen-size air mattress fits nearly perfectly) so most of the time we just leave our bedding there as we travel. If you wanna relax a bit you can crawl in back and catch up on emails or nap... whatever.
Our trips now are SO much less stressful now overall. Between those short little breaks, complete lack of Central Nervous System-wrecking droning/vibrations/smells and autopilot I'm not sure how we ever lived before. It's a totally different experience and the negatives as many people like to focus on really aren't once you own one and experience it for yourself.
As for a $100k new car... hell to the nah! We don't buy new. The depreciation on new vehicles is absurd and I'm not sure how anyone can afford that hit.
Most of Kia Niro EV owners really dislike the backing sound. I don't like the sound, but I love the feature. It is so loud that people move over or stop after hearing this sound.
There is no turn off button, unless you take the 7.5a fuse out according to youtuber.
https://youtu.be/eHTokezTaGE
That has been an issue with EVs.
They are "premium" cars charging more than ICE cars. Really, based upon manufacturing costs, EVs should be lower, but subsidies have pushed prices up and novelty has them higher.
EVs will be more popular when prices is the same (or lower) than ICE vehicles without subsidies.
I'm not sure I'm tracking this claim you're making.
What types of places do you go when you need a charge and there is no dedicated charging station? Are people/businesses open to letting you charge your car? Are they charging for the juice?
The most common: campgrounds or anywhere that has a camper outlet. You can find a NEMA 14-50 receptacle just about anywhere these days. Most camp grounds will let you charge for free or maybe charge you a few bucks to use it. This makes up the bulk of our non-Supercharging charging whenever we're out and about. It's rare though as Tesla is building out that Supercharger network like crazy. Also, don't forget about the "destination charger" network Tesla invested heavily in during the early years. Lots of hotels and businesses just have Tesla chargers that you can use as a guest/customer. These are great if you wanna grab a hotel room for the night and want to be able to charge for free and come out to a 100% charged car in the am when you're ready to hit the road again. We used this as an excuse to stay at a historic hotel (The Peabody) in Downtown Memphis a few years back during a road trip and it was amazing. We had a blast!
There's also an app called PlugShare that allows you to sort the charging locations based on what vehicle you have or what adapters you have. With these, it can be lots of the options I just mentioned or even people will put them in. There's a really nice older couple that lives back in Scottsbluff NE that not only owns a hotel there with an NEMA 14-50 plug listed for people to just use but they even list their home as well for people to use for free. I mean, it literally ends up costing pennies and you meet some cool people so... why not? Pretty cool community, really.
I'm rare in that I made of bunch of adapters to use on just about every single 15A, 20A, 30A and 50A outlet in North America. If there's electricity somewhere, I can use it! I keep waiting for an excuse to use them but I really haven't needed them. It's to the point where for most road trips I don't even take that duffle bag with me anymore.
Similar in concept to a Chevy Volt. Electric drive train with a gasoline generator to eliminate range anxiety.
Pass. WAY too many moving parts for my personal taste. I also prefer the other benefits that come with 100% EV I've come to appreciate over the years.
What's the point of your "point"? I haven't needed to knock on someone's door in the sticks where the lights are on to ask for gas, so why would I need to ask to borrow an outlet where there's no charger?
The only electricity that matters in this conversation is where it is useful for EV owners, not everywhere that it exists and it isn't. Please keep the conversation relevant.
Perhaps you can explain why you have "...a duffle bag full of adapters I made..."?
Edited: maybe I misread what you said. Let's make sure we're all being civil and respectful in this thread as was requested from the beginning.
I'm happy to answer any and all questions that are coming from a place of respect and genuinely wanting to know the answer. I'm not interested in fielding posts that are trying to bait someone into an argument where nobody listens.
I never said anything about going door to door in my post. I was trying to catch up with a lot of posts in a limited about of time so I left details out. I touched on some of those details already in posts since that post.
No problem.
If it is not suitable for your need, don't buy it. More EV DC fast charging space for us, and more $7500 rebate* (and more rebates from state and xcel level 2 charger rebate) for me when I get another one near future. :)
* if purchased new. Even if you are not qualified for 7500 tax rebate on purchase, you can lease a vehicle where manufacturer puts 7500 down for your lease.
CO tax benefit, and Xcel has some kinda rebate going on as well.
Federal Electric Vehicle Tax Credits
Up to $7,500 tax credit
Lease credit goes to leasing company ? may lower lease cost
Phase out begins when 200,000 sold by manufacturer
Tesla & GM ? no longer eligible
Colorado Tax Credits
$2,500 credit received with state income tax refund ? may be applied at purchase with many electric vehicle manufacturers
$1,500 for 2-year minimum leases
Unused tax credit can be rolled forward to future years
Colorado residents are able to claim an additional state tax credit of $2,500 when they buy an electric vehicle. Some dealers offer this at point of sale.
The credits decrease every few years from $2,500 during January 2021 ? 2023 to $2,000 from 2023-2026.
For leases: $1,500 between 2021 to 2026.
For tax years January 1, 2010 ? January 1, 2022, the credits are refundable. The credit is first applied against the income tax liability of the person who purchases, leases, or converts the qualifying motor vehicle.
I have a pretty hard price limit on vehicles. I have never spent over $25K on any vehicle I?ve owned. I guess if there comes a day when used Teslas with fresh batteries and motors can be had for that price I can reevaluate if an EV is feasible for me.
The way they've been cranking out Model 3's I think you'll start to see them at pretty affordable price points as soon as this inventory issue subsides. They're making tons of them and other than color and a couple of options they're basically all the same. It's going to be very difficult to get value for one of those on the used market before too long IMHO. When they came out, I was describing them as the Dodge Neon of the EV world. I joke because they're great cars with features a Neon never dreamed up but, in terms of uniqueness.. well, they're not very different which will make resale a struggle w/o the artificial demand spike. I thin that's going to accelerate adoption rates big time once less expensive options become available and people see that they far outlast ICE vehicles in terms of breaking down and needing repaired.
I can tell you that, from first hand experience, you're not going to be running a stop watch at your Supercharging sessions so it really is a non-issue. You start to plan and go about your road trips differently.
...and there you lost me. You've come to accept that your vehicle is driving you, not the other way around.
On another note, I keep seeing people talk about how fast these vehicles can be. You owe it to yourselves to check out how the braking is on most of these very heavy vehicles when trying to quickly slow them from those fast speeds.
Most of Kia Niro EV owners really dislike the backing sound. I don't like the sound, but I love the feature. It is so loud that people move over or stop after hearing this sound.
There is no turn off button, unless you take the 7.5a fuse out according to youtuber.
https://youtu.be/eHTokezTaGE
Your neighbors will love you if you leave early in the mornings. [Coffee]
Pass. WAY too many moving parts for my personal taste. I also prefer the other benefits that come with 100% EV I've come to appreciate over the years.
Wasn't proposing that you buy one, was responding to the poster pitching the idea of an electric truck with a propane generator. Please pay attention.
MrPrena,
We've been a fan of Hyundai for quite some time. Wife won't let us buy a KIA, although they are cousins. Noticed early on that Hyundai covered the battery packs and motors on their EVs under their 10-year drivetrain warranty. Is it the same for KIA?
BushMasterBoy
02-15-2022, 15:48
I think this is probably the wave of the future. Big electric truck made by Mercedes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LPxtNH0UTU
For OTR trucking, I envision large interchangeable battery modules (universal). Truck pulls into station and swaps depleted modules for fresh. Full range in a few minutes. The depleted modules are then charged for a future customer.
ETA: I'm not sure if even that is feasible since the weight of the fuel (batteries) reduces the overall carrying capacity of the truck/trailer combo.
Your neighbors will love you if you leave early in the mornings. [Coffee]
Yup. Slightly less roar than 63 cold start, but this reversing sounds much more annoying.
Seriously it is so annoying that a lady with the walker moved out of the way at a parking lot. [LOL]
I'm not sure I'm tracking this claim you're making.
I am saying EVs are cheaper to make. But they are sold at a premium price. Part of that premium price is the federal kickback. "But you get $7500 back from the government" (cough cough "so we will charge you an extra $7500")
Once prices come in line (or cheaper) than ICE, they will be the first choice of consumers.
As an example, a 2019 VW e-golf was $32K. A 2019 Golf GTI was $28.5k. Base Golf was $22.7k (I used those because the ID4 has replaced Golf and same car could be compared). So the EV versions are [much] more expensive.
Are they cheaper to make? They may be conceptually simpler, but they involve rare earth components and complicated battery chemistry that aren't easy to come by. Even though a combustion engine has more moving parts, those parts aren't usually made from exotic materials and they make millions of them.
If it's anything like the computer industry, the commodity parts are the cheaper parts. Anything they make tons of is usually cheaper than something that has a smaller target market. Remember when SSDs where really small and expensive but the common spinning disks with moving parts were cheaper? Now SSDs are pretty inexpensive and becoming the primary storage type.
MrPrena,
We've been a fan of Hyundai for quite some time. Wife won't let us buy a KIA, although they are cousins. Noticed early on that Hyundai covered the battery packs and motors on their EVs under their 10-year drivetrain warranty. Is it the same for KIA?
Yes and battery is 10y as well, but not transferable even to a family member nor spouse.
Biggest warranty I would worry about is using cheap aftermarket level2 charger and plastic area melt near the charging port. Extreme rare occasion even with cheap charger, but few wrote about that on some ev forums.
Most likely it might not get covered but some said charger manufacturer covered the repair.
https://origin-www.autobytel.com/kia/niro-ev/2022/warranty/
https://www.kia.com/us/en/warranty
Yeah. It is basically almost a same car. Infotainment is almost same as Hyundai. Dash and steering stuff are same/similar.
My wife drove elantra till June 2020 and she is very familiar with the kia electronics.
I am saying EVs are cheaper to make. But they are sold at a premium price. Part of that premium price is the federal kickback. "But you get $7500 back from the government" (cough cough "so we will charge you an extra $7500")
Once prices come in line (or cheaper) than ICE, they will be the first choice of consumers.
As an example, a 2019 VW e-golf was $32K. A 2019 Golf GTI was $28.5k. Base Golf was $22.7k (I used those because the ID4 has replaced Golf and same car could be compared). So the EV versions are [much] more expensive.
Great point.
It does cost less because they have a higher margin.
Sadly not selling enough, so they have those tax rebate upto certain quantities (~200k)
It is more of a micro econ issue than manufacturers trying to charge more to their ev customers. More quantities they manufacture, less marginal cost to make a vehicle.
I believe 1 single engine plane is also cheaper to make than 1 Hyundai, but they just do not have enough quantities sold to make the MC lower.
This is why automakers are pushing ev on the tv ad. Less parts and less cost assuming if they sell same quantity of ev as much as ice.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2019/09/22/why-americans-dont-buy-electric-cars-hey-the-tesla-model-3-isnt-that-popular/?sh=4f5927c037fd
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/porsche-taycan-turbo-s-drag-test/
Look at how quick the Tesla and Taycan are...
Not too shabby for a green automobile..
But one thing to notice. The Model S in Ludacris mode does 0-60 in 2.3 seconds. Quarter mile is 10.51@ 125. That means at higher speeds it falling on its face. Look at the car above it. 10.48@139.7. That is closer to the speed a mid 10 second car should be hitting. The EVs are torque machines but cant keep up the HP on the top end.
Of course there is the argument that in the USA... all you need it 0-80 mph and the electric cars excel there.
You're not wrong on the previous cars like I have but look at the new Model S Plaid. It runs DEEP into the 9's in just about any condition. Look at it's performance numbers too. Mid 160's for a trap speed in the 1/4 mile are commonplace. The car pulls as hard from 100-120mph as it does from 20-40mph. It's unreal how they did it.
That said, I'll take you for spin in my old, slow clapped out POS 2017 P100D that "only" does the quarter mile in the mid 10-second-range and see what words you use to describe your experience. If you can talk. :)
I've taken so many people for rides in these cars and the 0-60 in 2.28 seconds will make your eyes cross and make it difficult to breath. I've heard grown men whimper like school girls when I launch it. It's become one of my favorite things to do for people who have never been in one because it's not comparable to anything you've ever experienced in your life unless you fly fighter jets. I'll beat 'em from 0-60 though. ;)
Which brings us back full circle to what you said... that performance does drop off when you approach triple digits but... so? If I'm doing 75mph and I want to speed past someone I press the skinny pedal and passengers suck back in their seat and stop talking as the world blurs by. It's still stupid fast in all conditions. Real world numbers are more impressive because it's instant at any speed w/o any torque converters needing to lock up, gears needing to be found or engines needing to rev. It's just 761hp instantly anytime. I feel like a kid every single time I do it and it never gets old.
One thing an EV will never do..
Ignite the senses like a nice V12, Desmo-twin, a big block V8. (one could also argue that potato-potato-potato is also in that mix with the senses).
The sound and feel cannot be duplicated.
This was in the news today..
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/future-lamborghinis-air-electric
"What it would allow the brand to continue to deliver the aural experience many exotic sports car buyers expect, which can't be provided by near silent electric motors, making its cars arguably even more exotic in the future."
Nothing like the sounds of the Blue Angels at full tilt. Doesn't mean I want to live in one every single day of my life as my only means of transportation. If I did I'd have to gargle with a shotgun in relative short order.
There's nothing like complete silence as you talk with passengers or on your phone or jamming out to your favorite song or even just your latest podcast while your car drives itself to your destination... with your supervision of course ;) Then, at any point, you can spank anything on the street from streetlight to streetlight. All in complete silence. We love hitting up garage sales on nice summer mornings and cruising around neighborhoods with the windows down and able to hear the sounds of the outdoors is cool.
BMW i4 M50 makes anie noise. LoL
Xring is planning to review automobile on YouTube with new car channel.
Engine sound from ev. Hahaha
https://youtu.be/0KaHYo37Qd0
Xring announcing new car channel
https://youtu.be/DKISN6IcD9E
The only thing worse than no engine sounds form an EV is fake engine sounds from an EV. [LOL]
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-recall-579000-us-vehicles-boombox-noise-hazard/
"The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says on its website Thursday that the cars and SUVs have what Tesla calls a "Boombox" function that allows drivers to play sounds while the vehicles are moving. This violates federal safety standards that require pedestrian warning noises for electric cars, which make little noise when traveling, the agency says."
Good. It's stupid. Elon called the feds the "fun police" which I thought was hilarious, personally. I still think that "feature" was dumb and of course people abused it. Whatever.
Respectfully, I can say I'll never own an electric vehicle.
Not sure why this is presented like a badge of honor but.... thanks for the share?
...and there you lost me. You've come to accept that your vehicle is driving you, not the other way around.
On another note, I keep seeing people talk about how fast these vehicles can be. You owe it to yourselves to check out how the braking is on most of these very heavy vehicles when trying to quickly slow them from those fast speeds.
No more then you do every week when you climb in and realize that you need to go out of your way to get gas and stand at a gas pump regardless of weather conditions.
The negative hype about how "bad" the brakes on these cars are is largely exaggerated... a like like most of the FUD you read. I've never had a problem with not being able to brake. Not to mention I almost never even need friction brakes save for extreme and super rare scenarios. Gotta love brake pads and rotors lasting hundreds and thousands of miles! [Driveby2]
Wasn't proposing that you buy one, was responding to the poster pitching the idea of an electric truck with a propane generator. Please pay attention.
Is there some reason you can't be respectful to others?
Is there some reason you can't be respectful to others?
There's nothing more disrespectful than not actually reading what people write. I've asked, nicely. Twice.
You get miffed when people say they'll never buy an EV, yet you responded that you wouldn't buy a Chevy Volt...when buying one wasn't even proposed.
Why are you targeting me as being disrespectful?
I am saying EVs are cheaper to make. But they are sold at a premium price. Part of that premium price is the federal kickback. "But you get $7500 back from the government" (cough cough "so we will charge you an extra $7500")
Once prices come in line (or cheaper) than ICE, they will be the first choice of consumers.
As an example, a 2019 VW e-golf was $32K. A 2019 Golf GTI was $28.5k. Base Golf was $22.7k (I used those because the ID4 has replaced Golf and same car could be compared). So the EV versions are [much] more expensive.
Maybe ultimately they will be cheaper but have you priced any sort of lithium-ion based battery going back since their inception? Like an EGO lawn tool as an example? A typical 5.0Ah battery from EGO has twenty-eight 18650 cells in it and costs about $250 retail. A Tesla Model S's 100kWh pack has 8,267 of these. Applying the per-cell price to that amount of cells gets my to about $73k. I realize this is over simplification and doesn't factor any economies of scale but it also doesn't account for the far more complex chemistry in the ones used for a Tesla or any of the R&D that went into the management system or the car itself. Did I mention it can drive itself too? [LOL]
Great point.
It does cost less because they have a higher margin.
Sadly not selling enough, so they have those tax rebate upto certain quantities (~200k)
It is more of a micro econ issue than manufacturers trying to charge more to their ev customers. More quantities they manufacture, less marginal cost to make a vehicle.
I believe 1 single engine plane is also cheaper to make than 1 Hyundai, but they just do not have enough quantities sold to make the MC lower.
This is why automakers are pushing ev on the tv ad. Less parts and less cost assuming if they sell same quantity of ev as much as ice.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2019/09/22/why-americans-dont-buy-electric-cars-hey-the-tesla-model-3-isnt-that-popular/?sh=4f5927c037fd
Now that consumers are receptive to EVs the competition is fierce to be the "next" EV manufacturer people look to in order to claim those sales and that segment. This is why (finally) you see commercials.
Don't forget that most car manufacturers sell new cars at nearly no profit. They know they'll get that back on service & parts and EVs won't bring that revenue they've come to expect and plan for.
Advantage: consumer.
This also plays a large role in why all other manufacturers shunned Tesla's offer to allow them use their established network for free other than the cost of the electricity and maintenance costs. Tesla didn't build the Supercharger network to be a revenue generator. They created it to speed up the migration to more sustainable energy sources. With that in mind and knowing it was a major hurdle for those just entering the segment, they offered to let them hop onboard. The problem is that the legacy manufacturers see it as an opportunity to have their own proprietary ports/system and become the "gas stations" of the future to make residual income on their cars to support their (rapidly shrinking) business model.
If you liked the endless charger circus for cell phones in the late 90's and early 2000's, just wait until you see them 6ft tall and sprinkled all over the nation.
There's nothing more disrespectful than not actually reading what people write. I've asked, nicely. Twice.
You get miffed when people say they'll never buy an EV, yet you responded that you wouldn't buy a Chevy Volt...when buying one wasn't even proposed.
Why are you targeting me as being disrespectful?
You did some real mental gymnastics on that one to try to make it seem like I was the one personally attacking you and being rude for simply pointing out one of the biggest negatives to hybrids. Not sure how you read tone in what I posted but that's on you.
No more then you do every week when you climb in and realize that you need to go out of your way to get gas and stand at a gas pump regardless of weather conditions.
The negative hype about how "bad" the brakes on these cars are is largely exaggerated... a like like most of the FUD you read. I've never had a problem with not being able to brake. Not to mention I almost never even need friction brakes save for extreme and super rare scenarios. Gotta love brake pads and rotors lasting hundreds and thousands of miles! [Driveby2]
Since someone inserted FUD into the discussion, let's throw some science in here;
http://youtu.be/rh12lK53hss
It's a similar concept to having 4WD in the snow. It might help get you going, but then you have to stop.
You did some real mental gymnastics on that one to try to make it seem like I was the one personally attacking you and being rude for simply pointing out one of the biggest negatives to hybrids. Not sure how you read tone in what I posted but that's on you.
Let's keep it respectful, please.
Let's keep it respectful, please.
The most respectful thing I can do after years of you following me like a lost puppy and twisting everything I saw to try to bait me into some petty internet argument is add you to my ignore list.
I'll add this to the braking conversation;
http://youtu.be/9BovlZsztFw
This directly follows on with the unweighting of the rear end under heavy braking as described in the earlier video. If you follow the video to the end, they were able to grab all of the data for what was going on when the Model S Plaid swapped ends. During the unweighting of the rear end, the Bosch ABS controller was not allowing the rear brakes to release enough fast enough. They have submitted the data to Tesla and they're looking into it.
Going fast is fun. The Tesla Model S Plaid is an a really unique position of being able to go really fast, really quickly for a 5000lb vehicle. If you do that often enough, the brakes will overheat, so be careful out there.
Not FUD, just information.
Yes and battery is 10y as well, but not transferable even to a family member nor spouse.
Nice.
Not sure about Hyundai or Kia being able to scale up much on the EV front right now.
The first thing you see when you go to https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en is the 2022 IONIQ 5 EV. When you dig a little further you see this;
Extremely Limited Availability.
2022 IONIQ 5 available in select states only and in extremely limited quantities. Contact your Hyundai dealer for availability details.
Nice.
Not sure about Hyundai or Kia being able to scale up much on the EV front right now.
The first thing you see when you go to https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en is the 2022 IONIQ 5 EV. When you dig a little further you see this;
Those are much harder to find. I even gave up on other hyundai ev. They had no special offers. :(
Only reason there were some Niro eV in stock was because they are having a model change on 2023.
I am starting to see that block of 3 to 4 car manufacturer pushes ev at a time to utilize 200k threshold hold for fed rebate.
If vw id.4 suv had some real special deal, that would have been my 1st or 2nd choice.
BTW. If you are serious, go on to your power company for any rebates they offer. I went into xcel for charger rebate and found another rebate form.
(Will post photo later)
Martinjmpr
02-15-2022, 19:46
One thing an EV will never do..
Ignite the senses like a nice V12, Desmo-twin, a big block V8. (one could also argue that potato-potato-potato is also in that mix with the senses).
The sound and feel cannot be duplicated.
I'm picturing a guy circa 1916 watching a Model T go by and saying, "Harumph! Sure those flivvers might be a good way to get to town, but they'll never have the grace and beauty of a fine thoroughbred race horse!"
BTW. If you are serious, go on to your power company for any rebates they offer. I went into xcel for charger rebate and found another rebate form.
(Will post photo later)
Good tip. My provider has a web page for incentives that can be customized depending on the make/model for what type of incentives apply. For example, I don't get jack for a Tesla Model 3, but something like the KIA Niro EV, gets me a $7,500 Federal Tax Credit and $1,300 State Tax Exemption.
I don't want to own a large lithium battery or a premium car. But once prices drop and there is a fuel cell alternative (amonia, hydrogen), or a cheap and swappable battery (sodium or zinc-air) I am happy to get one.
I'm just not an early adopter for guns or cars. :(
Great-Kazoo
02-15-2022, 21:20
Never is a pretty definitive length of time. I'm curious why you take a stance of "never" on a used EV. You can get used EVs of any year and mileage just like any other car. The more miles, generally speaking, the more you save over what they cost new. Lots of people are terrified of used EVs because of the reasons you mentioned but they fail to factory how much you save by buying used in the first place. With Teslas, for instance, they come with an 8-year warranty that transfers free from owner to owner. I've found a sweet spot in cars that are 4-5 years old or so that still have half of that warranty remaining and some even have some of the bumper-to-bumper warranty remaining as well. So... you're covered for major repairs for several years on a vehicle that cost you a fraction of what they were new. If you buy a used one with 4-5 years left on the warranty and throw that $4-$5k in a savings account until your warranty is expired you'll have enough to buy a new one even at the highest price if it fails the day after the warranty expires. It won't and you also don't HAVE to drop $20k to replace the battery pack. There are lots of 3rd party options out there that can fix your Tesla battery pack for a couple of grand in most cases I've seen. Pretty high tech stuff they do too so I wouldn't sweat it not being a solid solution. In the meantime, that $20k is just building interest rather than burning up (literally) in the form of gas/oil costs.
No idea on the ADA leg room requirements but I know a Model S has lots of leg room. Much more than that of the Model 3 and just more room in general as well. You can educate me on this aspect as I know very little.
As for room, you'd be pretty surprised with how much storage is in a Tesla Model S. It's substantial. People are always amazed by how much crap we can cram into one if need be. Depending on what you plan to haul, it may even offer more/better storage than a minivan. This is more case by case basis but I can tell you that, with the rear seats folded flat, the rear storage area on a Model S is absurd since it's a hatchback even though it looks like a sedan. you also have the lower hatch storage and the frunk area too.
Well since you started this "discussion" asking to be respectful
I'll be less than polite when it comes to someone like you. Who for some reason ISN'T TAKING NO FOR AN ANSWER!
I explained why they don't work for me. I then explained it again. Since you seem to be ignoring what i've said. I'll SAY IT ONE MORE TIME. I have no inclination, desire, or even ponder buying an EV. After admitting you "HAVE NO IDEA" on the leg room. You then come back with . Well the Model S has lots of leg room. I'm sure it does for someone WITH 2 LEGS. FFS Jer give it a rest. A normal ICE vehicle with moderate center console doesn't work for someone like me with a full prosthetic.
Yet here you are trying to sell me on something that a person with 2 legs has no clue, why it doesn't work.
So let's wrap this up.
1st question. What happened to that Tacoma, you fawned and preened over a few years ago
2nd question, actually a statement.
From reading your entire thread. It appears the only one who needs convincing how GREAT AN EV IS. Is you. Sounds like you either have buyers remorse, OR so ignorant and tone deaf to those who FOR PERSONAL REASONS could care less about you or your EV's.
That's about as respectful as i can be, without getting a time out.
BUT keep trying to sell me, or question my reasons WHY I WILL NOT BUY ONE AND.......... i'll slam the door on you like those pesky jehovah witness.
Who like you, WILL NOT TAKE NO FOR AN ANSWER.
Martinjmpr
02-15-2022, 21:22
I don't want to own a large lithium battery or a premium car. But once prices drop and there is a fuel cell alternative (amonia, hydrogen), or a cheap and swappable battery (sodium or zinc-air) I am happy to get one.
I'm just not an early adopter for guns or cars. :(
I'm the same. Hell I have two air-cooled and carbureted motorcycles in my garage!
Now that consumers are receptive to EVs the competition is fierce to be the "next" EV manufacturer people look to in order to claim those sales and that segment. This is why (finally) you see commercials.
Don't forget that most car manufacturers sell new cars at nearly no profit. They know they'll get that back on service & parts and EVs won't bring that revenue they've come to expect and plan for.
Advantage: consumer.
This also plays a large role in why all other manufacturers shunned Tesla's offer to allow them use their established network for free other than the cost of the electricity and maintenance costs. Tesla didn't build the Supercharger network to be a revenue generator. They created it to speed up the migration to more sustainable energy sources. With that in mind and knowing it was a major hurdle for those just entering the segment, they offered to let them hop onboard. The problem is that the legacy manufacturers see it as an opportunity to have their own proprietary ports/system and become the "gas stations" of the future to make residual income on their cars to support their (rapidly shrinking) business model.
If you liked the endless charger circus for cell phones in the late 90's and early 2000's, just wait until you see them 6ft tall and sprinkled all over the nation.
Another good point on charging station and infrastructure side. Besides tesla, one business model I see is the PS console vs PS+ type of relations.i do not know it is a good model, but time will tell.
Great-Kazoo
02-15-2022, 21:28
Is there some reason you can't be respectful to others?
OH Look Pot calling kettle , Black.
BushMasterBoy
02-16-2022, 08:26
What will make EV's mainstream is when school bus fleets are EV. Kids will be plugging in their laptops and Elon and his ilk will be raking in our tax dollars. People will be buying desert land because the well water is contaminated with radionuclides & lithium, mining the brine. What a beautiful world this will be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ueivjr3f8xg
[SIZE=3]What will make EV's mainstream is when school bus fleets are EV. Kids will be plugging in their laptops and Elon and his ilk will be raking in our tax dollars. People will be buying desert land because the well water is contaminated with radionuclides & lithium, mining the brine. What a beautiful world this will be.
Externalities sucks. I hear ya.
https://images.csmonitor.com/csm/2015/04/4-1-Deepwater.JPG?alias=standard_900x600
BPTactical
02-16-2022, 08:45
I will be "Respectful"*
I feel that if you live in an urban environment with a minimal commute, have no need to drive a long distance or haul a heavy load an EV makes a degree of sense.
Is it the end all means of transportation? No, I don't believe so. I don't believe the used EV market will be viable, the cost to renew/replace a battery system will outweigh the worth point of the vehicle. The discussion on raw material procurement, processing and production of batteries not to mention disposal is as yet unsettled.
*EV vs ICE debate- I kinda look at it the same as the gay vs straight thing: If that's what you want to do fine. You do you. But the EV crowd has no place demanding that I view them the same way they do, that I must accept them as the "new normal", if I don't agree with their view then I am evil , an electrophobe and therefore a bigot.
Bite me
https://youtu.be/26X_s28ilYs
https://youtu.be/N1iCRQZ43cw
Just for fun:
https://youtu.be/wodH-39tT78
I?m holding out for an electric Harley. They will be such better bikes when you don?t have the vibration and rumble to speak to your soul.
I think the big supporters for all of this EV stuff are either the ?save the planet? or ?big oil is bad? crowd or the super practical, vehicles are just a way to get from point A to point B crowd.
Anyone who appreciates a mode of transportation for reasons beyond just a mode of transportation just isn?t going to be sold on electric vehicles.
Martinjmpr
02-16-2022, 10:42
I?m holding out for an electric Harley.
You asked for it, you got it:
https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/2021/livewire.html
89465
Great-Kazoo
02-16-2022, 11:45
I will be "Respectful"*
I feel that if you live in an urban environment with a minimal commute, have no need to drive a long distance or haul a heavy load an EV makes a degree of sense.
Is it the end all means of transportation? No, I don't believe so. I don't believe the used EV market will be viable, the cost to renew/replace a battery system will outweigh the worth point of the vehicle. The discussion on raw material procurement, processing and production of batteries not to mention disposal is as yet unsettled.
*EV vs ICE debate- I kinda look at it the same as the gay vs straight thing: If that's what you want to do fine. You do you. But the EV crowd has no place demanding that I view them the same way they do, that I must accept them as the "new normal", if I don't agree with their view then I am evil , an electrophobe and therefore a bigot.
Bite me
how true. The EV crowd reminds me of the incandescent bulbs are bad for the environment. crowd. SO................................ the push was on to go green, doing away with them, in favor of (Remember these?) CFL bulbs. Oh the hand wringin g over incandescent bulbs, how bad they were, blah, blah, blah....
Then once word was out the CFL bulbs used (iirc) mercury. They disappeared, replaced by led's. Ask the ev crowd, what would happen. Once they realize the mining, production and overall material use for EV's was actually worse than petro, for the environment.[panic] Soon to be replaced by other than EV vehicles. Bet those folks act like. OH EV, who drove those ;)
You asked for it, you got it:
https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/2021/livewire.html
89465
Ugh. Where are the windshield and bags? And 146 mile range? I could go that far on a Sportster with the peanut tank.
Bruh!!!!!
I am averaging 4.4mi/kw which is about 148mpge! That was mostly city driving though.
Better part is that about 20kw of power (too lazy to do energy; times hour) was FREE from free charging places!
Around 90 miles of FREE gas electricity this week!
Note: in order to get 90 mile range at 19mpg on tacoma is 4.74 gal. At $3/gal x 4.74gal = ~$14 worth of fuel for free if If driving 90miles of taco equivalent.
It's become one of my favorite things to do for people who have never been in one because it's not comparable to anything you've ever experienced in your life unless you fly fighter jets. I'll beat 'em from 0-60 though. ;)
Try a nearly a 100hp shot of nitrous on a big displacement motorcycle. You might not say it not comparable to anything I have ever experienced. I guess one difference is the bike one must actually ride and not let the car do the magic (not claiming that the magic that cars do getting off the line now is bad thing... but it takes very little skill whereas not long ago it took skill to launch a vehicle hard.
I'm the same. Hell I have two air-cooled and carbureted motorcycles in my garage!
What is a Carburetor?
I?m holding out for an electric Harley. They will be such better bikes when you don?t have the vibration and rumble to speak to your soul.
I think the big supporters for all of this EV stuff are either the ?save the planet? or ?big oil is bad? crowd or the super practical, vehicles are just a way to get from point A to point B crowd.
Anyone who appreciates a mode of transportation for reasons beyond just a mode of transportation just isn?t going to be sold on electric vehicles.
The Harley Livewire is selling so well....
https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/8/22566885/harley-davidson-livewire-one-price-specs-order
Harley even spun off the brand...
how true. The EV crowd reminds me of the incandescent bulbs are bad for the environment. crowd. SO................................ the push was on to go green, doing away with them, in favor of (Remember these?) CFL bulbs. Oh the hand wringin g over incandescent bulbs, how bad they were, blah, blah, blah....
Then once word was out the CFL bulbs used (iirc) mercury. They disappeared, replaced by led's. Ask the ev crowd, what would happen. Once they realize the mining, production and overall material use for EV's was actually worse than petro, for the environment.[panic] Soon to be replaced by other than EV vehicles. Bet those folks act like. OH EV, who drove those ;)
Yup.
I still have some incandescent and LED with some CFL.
Mainly LED now, but it has some usage of its own.
Our other vehicle is gas guzzling 4.0 V8 biturbo (faster lap time than hellcat in laguna seca). I hope I don't offend anyone with < 18mpg.
Martinjmpr
02-16-2022, 13:09
What is a Carburetor?
A small tube filled with wizards and magic. [Beer]
Well since you started this "discussion" asking to be respectful
I'll be less than polite when it comes to someone like you. Who for some reason ISN'T TAKING NO FOR AN ANSWER!
I explained why they don't work for me. I then explained it again. Since you seem to be ignoring what i've said. I'll SAY IT ONE MORE TIME. I have no inclination, desire, or even ponder buying an EV. After admitting you "HAVE NO IDEA" on the leg room. You then come back with . Well the Model S has lots of leg room. I'm sure it does for someone WITH 2 LEGS. FFS Jer give it a rest. A normal ICE vehicle with moderate center console doesn't work for someone like me with a full prosthetic.
Yet here you are trying to sell me on something that a person with 2 legs has no clue, why it doesn't work.
So let's wrap this up.
1st question. What happened to that Tacoma, you fawned and preened over a few years ago
2nd question, actually a statement.
From reading your entire thread. It appears the only one who needs convincing how GREAT AN EV IS. Is you. Sounds like you either have buyers remorse, OR so ignorant and tone deaf to those who FOR PERSONAL REASONS could care less about you or your EV's.
That's about as respectful as i can be, without getting a time out.
BUT keep trying to sell me, or question my reasons WHY I WILL NOT BUY ONE AND.......... i'll slam the door on you like those pesky jehovah witness.
Who like you, WILL NOT TAKE NO FOR AN ANSWER.
Someone like me?
Not really sure how you took anything I said as trying to sell you anything. I was offering up the info I had positive and negative. Not sure how you read any of that as me trying to sell you anything or not taking no as an answer. Never even know I was asking a question.
If you have no desire to buy an EV or learn more about them... why are you in this thread. This thread is very clearly an open forum to discuss EVs and questions. It's not for people to just crap on everyone else.
All I was doing was giving you MY experience. So many people talk about "Teslas" as if they're all the same and don't realize that a Model 3 is NOT a Model S. They go look at a Model 3 and say "Teslas are smaller than expected" even though the Model S is absolutely cavernous. It barely fitrs through my single garage dour and is wider than my Tacoma. Some Model S cars DON'T EVEN HAVE A CENTER CONSOLE. I even told you I have no idea what the requirements are and asked you to share as I would love to learn. What the hell has a guy got to do to make people realize that I didn't post ANYTHING with a tone. I literally wanted to know. Those are the damn words I said!
I've been nothing but fully transparent with my posts from top to bottom. I'm an open book and that was the point of this thread. How the hell am I trying to sell you anything if I'm also fully transparent about the negatives too? Even your own post contradicts yourself over and over.
I really don't give a hobo's crap if you buy an EV. I just want people to reach that decision based on ACTUAL REAL INFORMATION and if it's not for you.... FINE! I really don't care. Seriously. I'm not selling anything and I'm not trying to convert anyone to something that won't work for them. That's all. this really isn't a difficult concept. I don't get it. Some people are so afraid of being convinced of something other than they hold to be true that they lash out against anyone who isn't echoing what they want to hear.
Hell man, I thought you knew me better than that but I guess not. I swear to god, this forum has gone so far downhill and even the people who I thought knew me are just rude and inconsiderate these days.
OH Look Pot calling kettle , Black.
Who have I been disrespectful to? Without reading tone into my posts that ISN'T THERE, tell me who I'm being disrespectful to.
Okay, we (at least I) are not trying to turn anyone. I really don't care you drive Fuel Cell Toyota Mirai or Wankel Rotary engine vehicle.
One day, I got real sick and tired of going to Costco and wait 3-5min to fuel my Tacoma and spend about $40+. I had to do that every week. I just wanted to offset the cost and one less visit per week to gas station.
So, I decide to look at PHEV or EV. I decide to go with EV after finding 7500 rebate+ state rebate+ Xcel $500-1300 (income sensitive), and also $3000-5500* rebate from Xcel (income sensitive) as well. On top of that , I do not need to spend $40/week on gas. $40/week x 52week = $2080 savings (Minus ~$8.75 to 10 per month on ~60-85kwh charging per mo).
Since I did not take home any salary (except deduction, depreciation, and write-offs) & did not withdrawal or sold any securities positions, my salary is $0/yr, and I will be most likely qualified for more rebates for having an EV.
Is this EV my favorite vehicle I've ever purchased? no.
Is this EV my best choice financially? YES**
**what if car breaks down? What if that expensive battery goes bad? 10yr warranty will cover during my lease term. [Coffee]
*
https://i.imgur.com/oKWij21.jpeg
No matter what peoples opinion of EVs are....
They will be the future.
One reason. Pollution. Even if we have to burn dirty fuel to generate electricity, it is easier to have pollution reducing devices on industrial sized power generators than it is to have all the pollution control devices on ICE vehicles.
And the industrial power generators are NIMBY for urban voters whereas ICE pollution is in the urban areas.
EV will happen. It is just a matter of how quickly it will happen.
Great-Kazoo
02-16-2022, 19:05
Someone like me?
Not really sure how you took anything I said as trying to sell you anything. I was offering up the info I had positive and negative.
Not sure how you read any of that as me trying to sell you anything or not taking no as an answer.
Never even know I was asking a question.
.
How the hell am I trying to sell you anything ?
Your post / reply was to me text book used car salesman. OH if you only knew how much you can (insert pimping said vehicle) over another car. 3-4x after i tell the "salesperson"
I appreciate your assistance, BUT I'M JUST LOOKING.
encorehunter
02-16-2022, 20:42
89481
I doubt a Tesla would make it to my house. 4wd and ground clearance are required right now. Pulling trailers and all, they just aren't there yet.
However, I do like my Lithium powered Dewalt chainsaw.
BushMasterBoy
02-16-2022, 20:43
The best part of having an EV in Pueblo is, they can't cut off and steal your catalytic converter. I would like an EV that becomes an electric fence when they try to molest it. Maybe even an option that lets them in the car, then electric shocks the shit out of them when they are in it. It should also open the windows when it is real hot outside and dogs & lil kids are in it. Build it out of kevlar for the road rage shooters. I have a laundry list of features I want on it. Starlink internet too. Plus a button that will drive you to an ER when a medical emergency disables you, you don't have to call an ambulance. I am probably asking for too much...
Great-Kazoo
02-16-2022, 20:53
The best part of having an EV in Pueblo is, they can't cut off and steal your catalytic converter. I would like an EV that becomes an electric fence when they try to molest it. Maybe even an option that lets them in the car, then electric shocks the shit out of them when they are in it. It should also open the windows when it is real hot outside and dogs & lil kids are in it. Build it out of kevlar for the road rage shooters. I have a laundry list of features I want on it. Starlink internet too. Plus a button that will drive you to an ER when a medical emergency disables you, you don't have to call an ambulance. I am probably asking for too much...
better make the seats water & stain proof. The first 100v that go thru a would be car thief will have them losing their bowels. I doubt a scotchguard spray would fit the bill.
I think the big supporters for all of this EV stuff are either the ?save the planet? or ?big oil is bad? crowd or the super practical, vehicles are just a way to get from point A to point B crowd.
I think this is a common misconception among people about EV owners. I'm not saying that some aren't like that but I don't belong to any of those categories. That's partly why I wanted to have this conversation in addition to a genuine knowledge transfer was to show that it doesn't necessarily take a certain "type" to own an EV these days. You should see the looks I get when I pull up somewhere with lots of people looking & judging me based on what I drive until I get out wearing a Glock shirt or similar. It's pretty funny at first but regularly ends with groups of people wanting to ask hours of questions when they realize that someone maybe more like them has one. Like maybe there's more to these than a political statement or whatever it is people think of those who drive them typically.
OtterbatHellcat
02-16-2022, 21:19
Call it a badge of honor if you choose to.
Your post / reply was to me text book used car salesman. OH if you only knew how much you can (insert pimping said vehicle) over another car. 3-4x after i tell the "salesperson"
I appreciate your assistance, BUT I'M JUST LOOKING.
You chose to read tone into something where there wasn't any when I'm just trying to help others. That's on you.
BPTactical
02-16-2022, 22:33
You guys really get amped up for this don’t you?
Great-Kazoo
02-16-2022, 22:56
You guys really get amped up for this don’t you?
Shocking, aint it .
I wouldn't mind an EV, but I think for now a plug in hybrid might be the path I take. I don't have range anxiety, but I do several road trips a year that aren't well covered by charging networks... that and when I do stop it is gas up, go pee and get going again.
BPTactical
02-17-2022, 08:27
Shocking, aint it .
Currently no, but ohm my God, these guys are so happy they don't have to buy de gauss for them......I do have respect for them though- they armature in their discussion, know watt they are talking about and EV's do have potential.
As this is a discussion, it has been mentioned earlier that these EV?s are ?maintenance free? which I believe is mildly misleading.
Sure, you don?t have to deal with oil and filters but there are other items on any vehicle that will eventually require maintenance or repairs- suspension, tires, alignments, wiper blades, etc.
So, while they may require less maintenance or less frequent intervals for maintenance, there are no vehicles on the road that are ?maintenance free?.
Great-Kazoo
02-17-2022, 09:20
Currently no, but ohm my God, these guys are so happy they don't have to buy de gauss for them......I do have respect for them though- they armature in their discussion, know watt they are talking about and EV's do have potential.
I'm still seeing resistance to ev's, or not wanting one.
Great-Kazoo
02-17-2022, 09:21
As this is a discussion, it has been mentioned earlier that these EV?s are ?maintenance free? which I believe is mildly misleading.
Sure, you don?t have to deal with oil and filters but there are other items on any vehicle that will eventually require maintenance or repairs- suspension, tires, alignments, wiper blades, etc.
So, while they may require less maintenance or less frequent intervals for maintenance, there are no vehicles on the road that are ?maintenance free?.
Cardboard's Maintenance Free
Till it Rains Out
I will be "Respectful"*
I feel that if you live in an urban environment with a minimal commute, have no need to drive a long distance or haul a heavy load an EV makes a degree of sense.
Is it the end all means of transportation? No, I don't believe so. I don't believe the used EV market will be viable, the cost to renew/replace a battery system will outweigh the worth point of the vehicle. The discussion on raw material procurement, processing and production of batteries not to mention disposal is as yet unsettled.
*EV vs ICE debate- I kinda look at it the same as the gay vs straight thing: If that's what you want to do fine. You do you. But the EV crowd has no place demanding that I view them the same way they do, that I must accept them as the "new normal", if I don't agree with their view then I am evil , an electrophobe and therefore a bigot.
Bite me
Seems a little disingenuous to claime to be respectful and then punctuating your post with "bite me"
Warning: I'm not selling you shit ahead, just offering first-hand information that goes against some of the common misconceptions you've listed as your reasons for being anti-EV (not sure why I even need to add that disclaimer when I've been completely transparent about that from the start of this thread but some have achieved ruffled jimmy status from me posting so I guess I need to add that before I dare say anything that doesn't 100% agree with misinformation presented as fact)
I also think that having to be in an urban environment with a minimal commute is a qualification of the past. When EVs first came out that was accurate as a Nissan Leaf was less than 100mi of range and that was optimistic. For nearly a decade though Tesla has been selling cars with double that range estimate and the newer ones are four times that range on a single charge. I have friends who live out in the sticks that own them as well as knowing realtors who drive hundreds of miles per day every day and have hundreds of thousands of trouble-free miles on their cars now. The realtor guy I'm thinking of even uses one of the much older Model S cars that had smaller battery packs and fewer advancements and still gets by just fine. The amount of money he's saved on oil changes and gas alone is well into the tens of thousands of dollars and still going.
I also agree though that a long haul with a heavy load isn't the prime target demo of EVs. Like I've said numerous times now, they're not the right solution for everyone just like a 1-ton pickup truck isn't the right solution for everyone. I do think though that they're a great option for a far higher percentage of people than they may realize. That's partly why I wanted to start this thread to disprove some of the common misconceptions that are leading people to think it's not a good option for them when it may be.
As for the cost to replace/renew a battery system... do you drop a brand new engine in your truck if it needs a spark plug change, timing belt change or the head is cracked? I don't understand why people automatically assume you MUST replace the entire battery pack at the first sign of anything. There's lots of other options and I've mentioned them already in this thread. Reconditioning battery packs is becoming increasingly common and prices will continue to come down on that as well as the parts to complete the work and even the entire packs themselves. If your laptop is working fine but the battery isn't holding as good of a charge do you just throw the entire laptop away or buy a new battery pack for $20? If laptop battery packs had more cells and were expensive to replace more people would rebuild those too so this really isn't that dissimilar.
As for the disposal topic, we can recover over 90% of the materials in a Tesla battery pack today and their newest cell is 100% recyclable. That process will also improve as technology improves but even with today's tech it's pretty amazing how much of the materials in these packs are reusable which kind of makes the disposal conversation a moot point.
None of this is said to convince you of anything. I don't care if you rush out and drive an EV. I just want to do my part to make sure that misinformation doesn't continue to be presented as fact on forums like this. If you examine all of the facts and still don't think an EV is fine for you that's all good by me because I never said they were perfect for everyone.
As this is a discussion, it has been mentioned earlier that these EV?s are ?maintenance free? which I believe is mildly misleading.
Sure, you don?t have to deal with oil and filters but there are other items on any vehicle that will eventually require maintenance or repairs- suspension, tires, alignments, wiper blades, etc.
So, while they may require less maintenance or less frequent intervals for maintenance, there are no vehicles on the road that are ?maintenance free?.
I don't think anyone here claimed EVs were maintenance free in this thread. When I said that the purpose of starting this thread was to help get real information out, that includes misinformation that is SUPPORTING of EVs as well. I want to make sure that people reading this don't think that anyone here claimed EVs are maintenance free. They aren't.
I saw several mentions that maintenance was much lower which is accurate. In fact, that list you provided is nearly the extent of it on an EV. All of the things like water pumps, alternators, timing belts, spark plugs, fuel systems and intake systems are non-existent on an EV. Not only do you not have to maintain dozens of items with hundreds of moving parts and wear lives but you also don't have to worry about them randomly failing potentially leaving you stranded.
I would add brakes to that list too but even those are far less used than on an ICE car so people are seeing hundreds of thousands of miles out of pads and rotors. In fact, when Tesla still had an annual service (before becoming the first car manufacturer ever to have zero suggested maintenance interval) they would inspect the brakes for function as they could (rarely) seize up from lack of use, changed the wiper blades and topped off the washer fluid. That was it for the annual maintenance visit which is why they did away with it entirely.
One thing I would add to that list is tires. One of the negatives is that they will go through tires at a faster pace when compared to a "comparable" ICE sedan. I say "comparable" sedan because is there any sedan that's actually comparable to a 5,000lb and 700+ instant torque sedan? Not really. I'll take the that negative for all of the pros any day.
I wasn?t calling you out specifically for the maintenance free comment, Jer but I?m pretty sure someone in this thread said it and I?m just late to respond and too lazy to scroll back on my phone and quote whoever it was. May have been the guy with the new Kia or Hyundai?
Martinjmpr
02-17-2022, 10:25
There's another issue with EVs and that is that they are racist.
I don't see how EV manufacturers can get past that in today's political environment. [panic]
There's another issue with EVs and that is that they are racist.
I don't see how EV manufacturers can get past that in today's political environment. [panic]
LoL.
I've been called "gay" for having a hybrid on year 2007 by liberal and conservative, but they were my part time job co-worker. I know they were at least joking. 2 of them now drive a hybrid.
I still think it was a good idea PRIOR to oil reaching 140/barrel. It was good way to hedge against crazy gas price year after.
Sadder part is that some really have to talk homophobic stuff about hybrid, ev, phev, or fuel cell. It is 2022 they have a technology besides Rankine Cycle engine.
BPTactical
02-17-2022, 11:15
Seems a little disingenuous to claime to be respectful and then punctuating your post with "bite me"
Warning: I'm not selling you shit ahead, just offering first-hand information that goes against some of the common misconceptions you've listed as your reasons for being anti-EV (not sure why I even need to add that disclaimer when I've been completely transparent about that from the start of this thread but some have achieved ruffled jimmy status from me posting so I guess I need to add that before I dare say anything that doesn't 100% agree with misinformation presented as fact)
I also think that having to be in an urban environment with a minimal commute is a qualification of the past. When EVs first came out that was accurate as a Nissan Leaf was less than 100mi of range and that was optimistic. For nearly a decade though Tesla has been selling cars with double that range estimate and the newer ones are four times that range on a single charge. I have friends who live out in the sticks that own them as well as knowing realtors who drive hundreds of miles per day every day and have hundreds of thousands of trouble-free miles on their cars now. The realtor guy I'm thinking of even uses one of the much older Model S cars that had smaller battery packs and fewer advancements and still gets by just fine. The amount of money he's saved on oil changes and gas alone is well into the tens of thousands of dollars and still going.
I also agree though that a long haul with a heavy load isn't the prime target demo of EVs. Like I've said numerous times now, they're not the right solution for everyone just like a 1-ton pickup truck isn't the right solution for everyone. I do think though that they're a great option for a far higher percentage of people than they may realize. That's partly why I wanted to start this thread to disprove some of the common misconceptions that are leading people to think it's not a good option for them when it may be.
As for the cost to replace/renew a battery system... do you drop a brand new engine in your truck if it needs a spark plug change, timing belt change or the head is cracked? I don't understand why people automatically assume you MUST replace the entire battery pack at the first sign of anything. There's lots of other options and I've mentioned them already in this thread. Reconditioning battery packs is becoming increasingly common and prices will continue to come down on that as well as the parts to complete the work and even the entire packs themselves. If your laptop is working fine but the battery isn't holding as good of a charge do you just throw the entire laptop away or buy a new battery pack for $20? If laptop battery packs had more cells and were expensive to replace more people would rebuild those too so this really isn't that dissimilar.
As for the disposal topic, we can recover over 90% of the materials in a Tesla battery pack today and their newest cell is 100% recyclable. That process will also improve as technology improves but even with today's tech it's pretty amazing how much of the materials in these packs are reusable which kind of makes the disposal conversation a moot point.
None of this is said to convince you of anything. I don't care if you rush out and drive an EV. I just want to do my part to make sure that misinformation doesn't continue to be presented as fact on forums like this. If you examine all of the facts and still don't think an EV is fine for you that's all good by me because I never said they were perfect for everyone.
I don't think anyone here claimed EVs were maintenance free in this thread. When I said that the purpose of starting this thread was to help get real information out, that includes misinformation that is SUPPORTING of EVs as well. I want to make sure that people reading this don't think that anyone here claimed EVs are maintenance free. They aren't.
I saw several mentions that maintenance was much lower which is accurate. In fact, that list you provided is nearly the extent of it on an EV. All of the things like water pumps, alternators, timing belts, spark plugs, fuel systems and intake systems are non-existent on an EV. Not only do you not have to maintain dozens of items with hundreds of moving parts and wear lives but you also don't have to worry about them randomly failing potentially leaving you stranded.
I would add brakes to that list too but even those are far less used than on an ICE car so people are seeing hundreds of thousands of miles out of pads and rotors. In fact, when Tesla still had an annual service (before becoming the first car manufacturer ever to have zero suggested maintenance interval) they would inspect the brakes for function as they could (rarely) seize up from lack of use, changed the wiper blades and topped off the washer fluid. That was it for the annual maintenance visit which is why they did away with it entirely.
One thing I would add to that list is tires. One of the negatives is that they will go through tires at a faster pace when compared to a "comparable" ICE sedan. I say "comparable" sedan because is there any sedan that's actually comparable to a 5,000lb and 700+ instant torque sedan? Not really. I'll take the that negative for all of the pros any day.
https://youtu.be/syV2LkGpQB0
BushMasterBoy
02-17-2022, 12:55
Recharging buses from above. Probably how the big EV trucks will do it. Schiphol Airport, but I prefer the redlight district.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruUJly8l5s8
Martinjmpr
02-17-2022, 13:08
^^ Lots of European cities have buses or trains that run off of overhead power lines. I think it's ugly as hell but it works. In Germany it was called the S-Bahn (Strassenbahn.)
89490
For that matter I think some big Eastern cities in the US use the same system. [Dunno]
^^ Lots of European cities have buses or trains that run off of overhead power lines. I think it's ugly as hell but it works. In Germany it was called the S-Bahn (Strassenbahn.)
89490
For that matter I think some big Eastern cities in the US use the same system. [Dunno]
Pretty sure the light rail around here is fly by wire as well.
Flow batteries are still not ready for prime time, but getting closer.
https://news.umich.edu/1000-cycle-lithium-sulfur-battery-could-quintuple-electric-vehicle-ranges/
Flow batteries are still not ready for prime time, but getting closer.
https://news.umich.edu/1000-cycle-lithium-sulfur-battery-could-quintuple-electric-vehicle-ranges/
This is the kind of advancement that when coupled with some additional validation of the new battery type's stability and safety, that will get more folks into EV's. A 5x range increase would be fantastic.
Maybe I should start the thread automobile stereotype.
Tacoma, BMW, Mitsubishi, Civic (modded), etc... [Flower]
This is the kind of advancement that when coupled with some additional validation of the new battery type's stability and safety, that will get more folks into EV's. A 5x range increase would be fantastic.
Yes. And there are a few more in process.
I want a method for on-board power generation. Weather that be diesel (preferred) or solar generator incorporated into the design, I can't see getting a DD without.
The flow batteries, when they are ready for homes, introduce a step forward where solar roofing might be able to get to the point where a person could generate enough power to keep the EV topped off daily without adding capacity to the grid. That, to me is the tipping point. Less than 10% of the population can own EVs given the grid capacity. Add some flow battery capacity on the neighborhood level...maybe.
Oh NO!!!!!!!
Call Uber!
Call your family and friend to pick you up!
You only have 32% /82mi range!
NO!!!
[ROFL3]
I will be driving about 20 more miles tonight, and charge about 25-35% at a free level2 charger place tomorrow morning. :)
89496
Former Tesla Model Y owner.
Likes: Acceleration, cost-to-operate, lower maintenance and depreciation costs compared to the German SUVs I had been driving, audio system, and resale.
Dislikes: Had to install a 10-50, poor quality on the cars paint, interior, and body fitment, horrendous customer service, range (recharging) when traveling out of a metro area, and recharging time while traveling.
Purchased the Model Y new in December of 2020. Thought about a Model X but, the entry point was kind of steep for an experiment in an EV. The Model 3 and S sit too low to the ground for my old beat up back and neck.
Kept it for eight months. No passion for the car. Resold it a 10K profit after everything was factored in.
Ordered a Rivian pickup last year. May be a lot more economical to operate than my 19 RAM but, it is going to cost a whole lot more!
I am not a fanboy of Tesla but, they do have some pretty good technology and fun gadgets. Hated the company and their lack of service.
Great-Kazoo
02-17-2022, 23:01
Former Tesla Model Y owner.
Likes: Acceleration, cost-to-operate, lower maintenance and depreciation costs compared to the German SUVs I had been driving, audio system, and resale.
Dislikes: Had to install a 10-50, poor quality on the cars paint, interior, and body fitment, horrendous customer service, range (recharging) when traveling out of a metro area, and recharging time while traveling.
Purchased the Model Y new in December of 2020. Thought about a Model X but, the entry point was kind of steep for an experiment in an EV. The Model 3 and S sit too low to the ground for my old beat up back and neck.
Kept it for eight months. No passion for the car. Resold it a 10K profit after everything was factored in.
Ordered a Rivian pickup last year. May be a lot more economical to operate than my 19 RAM but, it is going to cost a whole lot more!
I am not a fanboy of Tesla but, they do have some pretty good technology and fun gadgets. Hated the company and their lack of service.
The rivian looks interesting, more capable of ease of access for disabled people. Then, as you say, low teslas.
Thank you for an honest report.
The rivian looks interesting, more capable of ease of access for disabled people. Then, as you say, low teslas.
Thank you for an honest report.
Agreed.
Aloha_Shooter
02-18-2022, 13:45
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/18/ship-carrying-porsches-and-bentleys-ablaze-near-azores-towing-boats-en-route.html
The risk of this will probably go down as the market shifts to super-capacitors but mass quantities of Li-Ion batteries can be hazardous ...
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/18/ship-carrying-porsches-and-bentleys-ablaze-near-azores-towing-boats-en-route.html
The risk of this will probably go down as the market shifts to super-capacitors but mass quantities of Li-Ion batteries can be hazardous ...
I think they might have a stepping stone to Li polymer in between.
Li-Ion batteries are crazy and scary when popped/exposed to oxygen. I had a bad MacBook Pro battery ignite into a chain reaction of blue flames in my home office last year. I wound up throwing it out the window onto my front porch…. If it was a larger battery array, it would have been insane.
Li-Ion batteries are crazy and scary when popped/exposed to oxygen. I had a bad MacBook Pro battery ignite into a chain reaction of blue flames in my home office last year. I wound up throwing it out the window onto my front porch?. If it was a larger battery array, it would have been insane.
Probably would have had a hard time tossing a Tesla out of the garage.
Great-Kazoo
02-18-2022, 22:37
Probably would have had a hard time tossing a Tesla out of the garage.
Not if one is Cross - Fit ;)
Easy peasy, you just open the garage, summon it near your hated neighbor's house, drop your phone and run like hell.
I was charging 4 hours here (2 hours each changer) @ 8kw. At 32kwh, that will be ~120mile range.
If a vehicle has a 24mpg, that is ~5gal. ( 120mi/24mpg)=~5
equivalent to: 5 gal x $3.10/ga= ~$15.50 worth of free gas.
(was doing some taxes for about 4 hours)
https://i.imgur.com/fSQ1ku6.jpeg
That's the thing. I would be bored out of my f'n mind sitting behind a grocery store for 4 hours. It's worth the cost to run the pump while I clean the windshield, then go about my day
I don't know if anyone has a patience to shop 4 hours at Kohl's. I won't be able to do that even on back to school shopping. lol
I would be more bored out of my mind if I had to do taxes at home. I was actually at a starbucks near the plaza. So, deduct -$2 spent on unlimited refill on coffee.
I am still on mileage calculation for December 2021, and 1 more month to go. I would say I am about 5% completed on 2021 taxes.
I was charging 4 hours here (2 hours each changer) @ 8kw. At 32kwh, that will be ~120mile range.
If a vehicle has a 24mpg, that is ~5gal. ( 120mi/24mpg)=~5
equivalent to: 5 gal x $3.10/ga= ~$15.50 worth of free gas.
(was doing some taxes for about 4 hours)
https://i.imgur.com/fSQ1ku6.jpeg
You made $3.88 per hour doing your taxes.
You made $3.88 per hour doing your taxes.
I wish all my taxes were done in 4 hours. that would have been real nice.
Just the mileage deduction. I had a stupid app on 2020 taxes, because they messed up on personal and business mileage. So, I am manually going over it.
Every part of MrPrena's post is painful. starbucks, kohls,(if you throw in target, you have 3 of the queerest stores on the planet) waiting for 4 hours to fill up. no, thanks anyway.
they should have the chargers AT the crossfit place.
Sorry, not a shot at you MrPrena, just an observation that your day would be torture to me.
No problem . Target does not have a free charger. :D
If a local gun shop let me do taxes there while let me shop and take a look at some guns, I would be there.
I also have to go to Sams/Costco (To some it might be a Q store) tomorrow to gas on my other vehicle after shopping for food. (no, not doing taxes at costco table).
ETA: I have 15min break every hour doing taxes, and you guys (and this forum) being a huge help getting my mind out of numbers.
Great-Kazoo
02-19-2022, 18:04
Every part of MrPrena's post is painful. starbucks, kohls,(if you throw in target, you have 3 of the queerest stores on the planet) waiting for 4 hours to fill up. no, thanks anyway.
they should have the chargers AT the crossfit place.
Sorry, not a shot at you MrPrena, just an observation that your day would be torture to me.
Q or not. 4 hrs is burning daylight, as well as costing money. Bless you if you have 4, even 2 hrs to ba able to wait for a vehicle to be charged up.. Like gman said,i'll spend the $$ to be able to be on the road in less than 20 min. On road trips, we break every 2 hrs, full up, walk dogs, snack out then go.
Maybe one day when they offer an affordable, practical, EV. that holds more than 2 mountain bikes (wheels off) a foldable cooler for drinks, than i'd consider one. But at a (Rivian) $60K + tag never happen.
I don't know if anyone has a patience to shop 4 hours at Kohl's. I won't be able to do that even on back to school shopping. lol
I would be more bored out of my mind if I had to do taxes at home. I was actually at a starbucks near the plaza. So, deduct -$2 spent on unlimited refill on coffee.
I am still on mileage calculation for December 2021, and 1 more month to go. I would say I am about 5% completed on 2021 taxes.
I was charging 4 hours here (2 hours each changer) @ 8kw. At 32kwh, that will be ~120mile range.
If a vehicle has a 24mpg, that is ~5gal. ( 120mi/24mpg)=~5
equivalent to: 5 gal x $3.10/ga= ~$15.50 worth of free gas.
(was doing some taxes for about 4 hours)
Post 177 and 178 stated that I was doing taxes for 4 hours, and seems like some of you don't get it.
You can just do taxes if you want. I would rather do taxes while charging my laptop+phone+car+etc.
https://i.imgflip.com/4blz3h.jpg
[hammer][tinhat]
https://i.imgur.com/fSQ1ku6.jpeg
So, I?m guessing besides oil changes your EV also never requires washing?
Great-Kazoo
02-19-2022, 21:09
So, I?m guessing besides oil changes your EV also never requires washing?
89523
That's outside his 4 hr window.
Besides washing those can get one electrocuted . IF it's plugged in . OR not. it looks like the resident evxpert , like elvis, has left the building.
Post 177 and 178 stated that I was doing taxes for 4 hours, and seems like some of you don't get it.
You can just do taxes if you want. I would rather do taxes while charging my laptop+phone+car+etc.
https://i.imgflip.com/4blz3h.jpg
[hammer][tinhat]
My post was 'glass half-full' in that you made $15.50 for 4 hours of your time while you were working on your taxes.
Now you just have to figure out if all the time you spend doing your taxes is worth not paying a pro to do them for you. See what I did there? [Coffee]
BushMasterBoy
02-20-2022, 07:21
NASA just launched an experimental battery into space. It is a lithium battery composed of all solids. They are hoping this will make a safer battery. I hope it is a success!
Quote from link below:
"Space Demonstration for All Solid-state Lithium Ion Battery (Space AS-Lib) demonstrates operation of a Lithium-ion secondary battery capable of safe, stable operation under extreme temperatures and in a vacuum environment. The battery uses solid, inorganic and flame-retardant materials and does not leak liquid, making it safer and more reliable. A successful demonstration of this new technology could expand its use in space as well as in the automotive and aerospace markets on the ground."
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/explorer/Investigation.html?#id=8566
Launch link:
https://www.nasa.gov/content/overview-for-northrop-grummans-17th-commercial-resupply-mission
I think a lot of people misunderstand the point he's making... he didn't HAVE to charge for 4 hours to go about his day. His day involved a 4-hour-stop and he chose to plug in while he was doing what he had already planned to do because of free electricity. it would be similar to going to Costco and while you were taking care of your shopping someone slowly added fuel to your gas tank for free. You're saying that's a bad thing?
This is pretty common with EVs where you can plug in somewhere you were going to go anyway just to get free juice. Lots of businesses will have EV charging available to attract more customers. The electricity cost is hardly anything to them and they end up bringing in more revenue overall so it's a win win for the business owner.
Tesla (for instance) has a crap ton of what they call "destination chargers" which are completely separate from and in addition to the Supercharger network. Early on, Tesla would give FREE HPWC (High Power Wall Connectors) to businesses who asked for them. The only requirement was that they not charge for using them. Tens of thousands of businesses took them up on this so there's just random Tesla chargers all over. Plenty of apps to find them easily too. So if you're choosing between Store A or Store B and Store B offers free charging while you shop... you'll likely choose Store B because it's free "fuel" for something you were going to do anyway. Simply park in the right space, plug in and go about your business as you were planning anyway. By the time you return you just gained more range for free. You didn't invest any of your time other than plugging in a cable.
Some people are so conditioned to think that owning an EV means you're constantly waiting around to charge that they miss the part where you literally never have to go to a gas station again. 98% or more of most owners charging is done at home while they sleep. You basically get up every single day to a full "tank" that cost you 1/10th of what gas would have cost you for the same miles you drive. People want to focus on road trips as if that's the 98% of ownership which makes no logical sense. In fact, if I assigned a number to how much time I used to spend going out of my way to get gas, pumping gas, oil changes and all other maintenance items (since I was my own mechanic but even if you pay someone else you're out money and the time waiting for the work to be done) I'm probably days and possible weeks ahead on time of what I would have invested in things we don't really consider in ICE vehicle ownership any longer until you no longer have to do them.
The time I've "spent" waiting for charging which prevented me from going somewhere is barely a drop in the bucket compared to the time I've saved.
BushMasterBoy
02-20-2022, 13:43
Guy in Denver EV's a muscle car!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVveszK5V2E&t=3s
gnihcraes
02-20-2022, 14:09
I've considered EV for a while, before my divorce.
Ex wife after divorce wanted to sell the Grand Cherokee (Eco Diesel) because of it's "issues" - which are all Emissions related. (Diesel Gate)
Told her to just keep it! it's paid for and has plenty of warranty that we bought and warranty provided in diesel gate for their updated software/fixes. (before it could get 27mpg, now after "fixes" it might get 20mpg)
I suggested the Nissan Leaf instead since she does nothing but drive around town and use the jeep for hauling stuff or snow days.
She drove the Volt and Leaf and didn't try tesla I think because of price.
Volt seemed cheap. Leaf seemed more solid and better features. She bought a high end Leaf almost a year ago.
She gets paid mileage for driving at work several days a week and the payback on that has been paying the Leaf lease payment each month. (not always, but usually)
She was using the level 1? (120volt) charger and was fairly happy with that, but power was available for 30~50 amps in the garage. I wired up a new plug for her closer to the charger and now she's topping off in a few hours each day/overnight.
She is really happy with it and enjoys driving it and no trips to the pump - unless filling up the Diesel jeep for $$$$$.
Now for my life, I've moved 30 miles south (castle rock) and driving to downtown Denver twice a day. A few times more than 2 trips in a day. This would be frustrating if I had to turn and burn a few times but couldn't because of "charging"
I'd need 80 miles recovered during charging overnight or full top off every 2 days if driving a Leaf. I have no power other than 120v and would have to invest in upgrades for faster charging. Fairly costly even if I do it myself.
Girlfriends jeep cherokee 4 cylinder turbo gets around 26-28mpg and we fill up for ~$50 every 4 days or so. 15 gallons
Basically the same MPG I can get with my Honda fit. 10 gallons.
I'd consider selling my FIT and keeping her jeep and so we have 4x4 on snowy days. I'm waiting to see what the next Nissan EV product is, I think it's AWD small SUV type.
Difficult to sell something and end up with a monthly payment just to save some $'s each week. Although I'd get a newer vehicle, warranty, less maintenance, more features etc.
I did calculate a trip in a Tesla once. Denver to Florida to visit family. It came out to the same number of fill up's as the jeep cherokee and a few 100$ cheaper. Planned stops every so often for a fast charger, food, stretch. On a long trip, I'd be more inclined to stay longer during charging if not for a long wait to access it.
TBH my ideal vehicle is an electric, with no screen, a maximum of 5 chips (modern cars have 640+), pretty much no features at all, designed for maximum resiliency and longevity, no OTA updates or licensing at all.
Problem is, nobody builds it and nobody ever will. Something like that would have the same problem as black model-t's - once a family had one, they fit the need, they were reliable, and the family wouldn't feel obligated to ever buy another vehicle, period. (Chrysler introduced custom vehicle colors, and planned obsolescence, and took over 80% of the market share shortly thereafter, and for quite awhile).
Current cars - both ICE and electric, are designed to be obsolete. Planned obsolescence and hundreds of unnecessary features and sensors go hand-in-hand in todays manufacturing. For an at-home guy to maintain a "classic" car thirty years from now (a 2020+ model) will be flat impossible.
And yes, I know, Tesla will charge someone to replace a screen or upgrade a few models.
But EVERYTHING that depends that heavily on software and licensing has EOL. That means "End of Life". EVERYTHING. You will not be able to update a model 3 with a new battery and new screen into a 2030+ model, much less 2040, or 2050. At some point in time, they will publish an EOL, and it'll nearly be the end of those years shortly thereafter. Super-rich that can afford insanely-spendy custom fabricated repairs might be able to keep on going, but why would they?
I don't want my car to be reliant on software... case in point, I'd be driving Windows 95 right now.
People can keep buying new vehicles and blowing them to start them (yeah, that will actually be a thing...) but I'll keep driving my nice stuff... mostly. Someday, I might convert one to be electric, which will achieve what I want. But I don't plan on buying any modern EV as I like to keep my stuff out of the dump for a long while.
gnihcraes
02-20-2022, 15:01
My truck is DOS, not even windows compatible. Haha
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Burned through $110 worth of petrol this weekend.
I suppose my weekend of jackassery and errands would have cost me what? $0.12 worth of electricity?
Great-Kazoo
02-20-2022, 17:47
Burned through $110 worth of petrol this weekend.
I suppose my weekend of jackassery and errands would have cost me what? $0.12 worth of electricity?
Don't forget the 4+ hrs of charging time. ;)
Don't forget the 4+ hrs of charging time. ;)
Sort of related, but since some of the EV guys keep mentioning not having to go to the gas stations I will just bring up that the range on my truck can be taken from zero to about four hundred miles in less than five minutes.
If that EV is pretty much dead I doubt a five minute charge is going to going to give you 400 miles. Might give you enough to get home if home isn?t a hundred miles away?
Great-Kazoo
02-21-2022, 08:37
Sort of related, but since some of the EV guys keep mentioning not having to go to the gas stations I will just bring up that the range on my truck can be taken from zero to about four hundred miles in less than five minutes.
If that EV is pretty much dead I doubt a five minute charge is going to going to give you 400 miles. Might give you enough to get home if home isn?t a hundred miles away?
EV's have their pluses & minuses. At this point in time, between cost, leg room, as well as storage capability. It's just not something i'd be willing to buy. OR is is something i'm going to spend more money on, that cost more than each of my last 4 houses.
That applies to ICE vehicles as well.
EV's have their pluses & minuses. At this point in time, between cost, leg room, as well as storage capability. It's just not something i'd be willing to buy. OR is is something i'm going to spend more money on, that cost more than each of my last 4 houses.
That applies to ICE vehicles as well.
Talk to me about storage capacity being a negative in your pros/cons list. What vehicle are you comparing this to for storage capacity.
I could see a Rivian as a daily driver...
I could see a Rivian as a daily driver...
I've been this close -><- to ordering one several times. The main things that keep me from pulling that trigger are: upstart and very beginning of production runs can be a bit shaky, no local service center should I need it and lack of built-out charge infrastructure. The good news is that all of those are going to come with time so there's a solid chance I end up with one in the garage eventually.
BushMasterBoy
02-22-2022, 09:27
I'm not going to buy a EV until I can easily change a battery using a pallet jack. I want a quick change battery option. I want a battery on standby just in case. If there is anything I learned about batteries, they eventually die. I also want the battery standardized. Proprietary battery is bullshit. Same battery should fit other vehicles. Make the vehicle consumer friendly. Keep it simple stupid. It would be nice if the spare battery could be used to power the house too.
I want to be able to go to a battery store and buy a battery for it. Plug n' play.
Whoever makes EV's extremely consumer friendly, will corner the market.
I'm not going to buy a EV until I can easily change a battery using a pallet jack. I want a quick change battery option. I want a battery on standby just in case. If there is anything I learned about batteries, they eventually die. I also want the battery standardized. Proprietary battery is bullshit. Same battery should fit other vehicles. Make the vehicle consumer friendly. Keep it simple stupid. It would be nice if the spare battery could be used to power the house too.
I want to be able to go to a battery store and buy a battery for it. Plug n' play.
Whoever makes EV's extremely consumer friendly, will corner the market.
Why are the standards for EV adoption by some not even remotely close to what they currently have with ICE vehicles? How many different power plant options are available in ICE vehicle? One or one million? Can you change out an engine using only a pallet jack? Can you easily power your home with the power source from your ICE vehicle?
I just don't understand the double standard by some when discussing the adoption of EVs. "I'll buy an EV when it can process my taxes, clean the pool and take me to moon in 10 minutes for $3 round-trip."
While some of your points are valid (Tesla actually created their battery pack to be hot-swapped in like 15-minutes and even had a test facility in CA where you could pull up and swap out a fully charged pack to avoid waiting for charging. The problem was nobody wanted to pay even $50 when Supercharging was free and that was back when charge times were MUCH slower. Today there's even less of a reason for this based on consumer feedback) others are just pie-in-the-sky requirements.
NFATrustGuy
02-22-2022, 10:16
Why are the standards for EV adoption by some not even remotely close to what they currently have with ICE vehicles? How many different power plant options are available in ICE vehicle? One or one million? Can you change out an engine using only a pallet jack? Can you easily power your home with the power source from your ICE vehicle?
To be fair, he wasn't asking for uniformity in propulsion system. He was asking for uniformity in "fuel." I have 4 cars, 4 motorcycles, 3 lawnmowers, a snow thrower, a pressure washer, a standby generator, etc. They all have vastly different engines, but can all burn the same fuel. This fuel is universally available. I do my best to use the top half of the tanks on all of these items and keep a hundred gallons or so on my property in case traditional sources of fuel are temporarily unavailable.
If things really get desperate, I can pick one road-going vehicle and siphon fuel from the other vehicles to sustain myself beyond my normal 100 gallon reserve tank. I'm not beholden to any particular manufacturer for my source of fuel. I'm pretty sure this is what BushMasterBoy was referring to. Seemed obvious to me. I can't believe it wasn't obvious to anyone reading his comments. I don't believe being pedantic helps your cause.
All this being said, I'd love to have an EV. I just can't make the numbers work. Even though I tend to be a gadget freak and an early adopter, this leap is just a bit too far for me. A friend recently bought a Model 3 and let me demo it for a day. Really cool, but it'd be a toy... an extravagance. Believe me, I've got toys and I certainly have more than what is necessary to sustain life, but a daily driver car just isn't an area where I feel a need to splurge. The average age of my cars is 2004 with the newest being a 2012. The average accumulated miles is 124,000. My motorcycles are even older than the cars... 1997.
HBARleatherneck
02-22-2022, 10:26
I really want to invent something and get Jer to shill it for me. I have never in my life seen anyone who gets more enthusiastic and adamant he is right about something ever. Tacoma, crossfit, mowing lawns, I cant remember all of it.
I think people on this forum argue with Jer because he comes across as a paid shill. Then even though he says keep it civil, every conversation is "im right, you are wrong, why are you against me"
Who cares if the other people dont like what you like? If you are an early adopter of EV and it works for you, that is great.
I really want to invent something and get Jer to shill it for me. I have never in my life seen anyone who gets more enthusiastic and adamant he is right about something ever. Tacoma, crossfit, mowing lawns, I cant remember all of it.
I think people on this forum argue with Jer because he comes across as a paid shill. Then even though he says keep it civil, every conversation is "im right, you are wrong, why are you against me"
Who cares if the other people dont like what you like? If you are an early adopter of EV and it works for you, that is great.
I hope he works as hard on his full time job :). He's gotta be a valuable member of his team and go-getter for his employer.
BushMasterBoy
02-22-2022, 12:55
I wonder if we are going to see drilling for lithium bearing brine? I know a few hot springs in the Arkansas River valley that are fairly rich in lithium. The Dakota hot springs, the water is just allowed to run back into the Arkansas River. As it evaporates it leaves a chalky looking residue. The last Pueblo West board meeting I was at, they stated the water in the aquifer under the land they own is unusable due to radionuclides and mineral content. I wonder if it contains lithium?
https://www.mindat.org/loc-6118.html
https://www.ornl.gov/news/ornl-develops-sorbent-recover-lithium-geothermal-brines
Religion is a sensitive subject. Let's keep it respectful.
Great-Kazoo
02-22-2022, 13:19
I really want to invent something and get Jer to shill it for me. I have never in my life seen anyone who gets more enthusiastic and adamant he is right about something ever. Tacoma, crossfit, mowing lawns, I cant remember all of it.
I think people on this forum argue with Jer because he comes across as a paid shill. Then even though he says keep it civil, every conversation is "im right, you are wrong, why are you against me"
Who cares if the other people dont like what you like? If you are an early adopter of EV and it works for you, that is great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTgGVzV5gPg
BushMasterBoy
02-22-2022, 13:29
My first EV will be one of these!
https://www.cubcadet.com/en_US/riding-lawn-mowers/electric-riding-mowers
Martinjmpr
02-22-2022, 13:46
I wonder if we are going to see drilling for lithium bearing brine? I know a few hot springs in the Arkansas River valley that are fairly rich in lithium. The Dakota hot springs, the water is just allowed to run back into the Arkansas River. As it evaporates it leaves a chalky looking residue. The last Pueblo West board meeting I was at, they stated the water in the aquifer under the land they own is unusable due to radionuclides and mineral content. I wonder if it contains lithium?
https://www.mindat.org/loc-6118.html
I've been by the big Lithium mine in Nevada (near the town of Silver Peak.) It's quite a complex. I've heard there is a second Lithium mine being planned for an area North of Winnemucca and not far from the Black Rock Desert. https://insideclimatenews.org/news/07112021/lithium-mining-thacker-pass-nevada-electric-vehicles-climate/
https://www.ornl.gov/news/ornl-develops-sorbent-recover-lithium-geothermal-brines
BushMasterBoy
02-22-2022, 14:20
I changed my mind...I'm getting a jet ski instead!
https://taigamotors.ca/watercraft/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhCLVsQasPA&t=2s
I really want to invent something and get Jer to shill it for me. I have never in my life seen anyone who gets more enthusiastic and adamant he is right about something ever. Tacoma, crossfit, mowing lawns, I cant remember all of it.
I think people on this forum argue with Jer because he comes across as a paid shill. Then even though he says keep it civil, every conversation is "im right, you are wrong, why are you against me"
Who cares if the other people dont like what you like? If you are an early adopter of EV and it works for you, that is great.
Who says I care what people don't like simply because I want to dispute misinformation and have a mutually respectful conversation on a topic? The only thing I'm interested in is that people stop parroting misinformation as fact as it pertains to this topic.
That makes me a shill? I've said multiple times now I don't care if you or anyone else wants to buy a Tesla or any other EV for that matter. That's not the point and it never was. I've been clear about that from the beginning. Hell, I've even pointed out negatives and short comings along the way. If you think an EV is or isn't for you, I only care that you're arriving at that decision based on actual facts instead of based on some made up BS or outdated info that others (who don't know what they're talking about) continue presenting as current fact.
It all reminds me of all the old farts in the 80's talking about how dangerous cruise control was. You'd think we'd be wiped out as a species if half of the shit they said was true actually was. Now it's just "the way" despite their resistance to change.
All of these unwarranted personal attacks of me aren't constructive in the least either but whatever makes you feel good about your life I guess.
HBARleatherneck
02-22-2022, 15:20
I think its funny, no matter what, you can turn it around as You are never the problem. You are always condescending, you are always right. Only your fact matter. Only your opinion is right.
I know you will immediately respond to this and once again turn it around that I am wrong and you are right. I have watched your posts here for years. It is ALWAYS the same thing with you.
deny, deflect, turn it around.
Great-Kazoo
02-22-2022, 15:43
Who says I care what people don't like simply because I want to dispute misinformation and have a mutually respectful conversation on a topic? The only thing I'm interested in is that people stop parroting misinformation as fact as it pertains to this topic.
.
You're $%^& high.
I stated a few times why ev's do not work for me. Yet here you are acting like a democrat , saying those who disagree with you are parroting misinformation.
Imagine, IF you really didn't care what people like. This would have been maybe a 1-2 pg, tops thread.
FFS jer grow up, grow a spine and most of all. RESPECT those who for whatever reason DO NOT LIKE OR CARE ABOUT Buying / owning an EV.
I'm actually disappointed, for all your pimping of the Tacoma. You've turned your back on a sensible all around ICE ride. In favor of an EV. Or was that crossfit?
89590
buffalobo
02-22-2022, 16:15
It has run its course.
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