View Full Version : Eotech Sights????
Colorado Luckydog
01-03-2010, 00:18
I was just checking them out. I wanted to see what you guys think. I have a decent Nikon 3x9x50 but I thought they were kind of cool. Is there one that is best for a mini? Do you think they are worth the dough? Do they dramatically increase your ability in extreme weather? Thanks for any input.
Define extreme weather.
They are fantastic holo sights, and I prefer them over an Aimpoint because for the same price as an Aimpoint it is ready to mount on your weapon, as opposed to needing to buy a mount seperate.
They are great optics, provide fast acquisition and allow a wide field of view.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b100/89Sunbird/AR-15/49f024f3.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b100/89Sunbird/AR-15/9a17735a.jpg
That said, I traded mine straight across for an Aimpoint in an ARMS mount, which was quickly smashed to bits and mailed off to LaRue for replacement.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b100/89Sunbird/AR-15/97ff805e.jpg
Check into the EOtech XPS. I have one on my shorty AR15 and LOVE it. I think Botach Tactical is still doing 10% off which means with their price you can get one for around $350 or so plus shipping. Pretty tough to pass that up. I got in on it a few months back when EOTech was also offering a $50 mail in rebate if you bought from a certified dealer which Botach is. I think it expired a few days ago but worth checking into.
I have an EoTech that came on my sig and I love it. However since I have no knowledge of the competition and what not, why did you trade it out for an Aimpoint? Especially since you just promoted the good of the EoTechs?
I wanted to try something different. I want something that sits down lower on the weapon (which I can do since both front and rear sights fold down on my carbine), and an Aimpoint in a low mount can do that nicely.
I just can never decide on things like that. I had an EOTech 511, sold that, bought an Aimpoint on here, traded it for the EOTech 512 in the pics above, which I just traded for the Aimpoint...someday I'll just have to cough up the cash and get an ACOG, which is my dream optic :P
so why an ACOG?
I will have to figure out which eotech I have and what is the diff between models. hmmm...
well according to the outside of the box on the side, it appears that mine is checked as 552.A65
COLuckyDog - If you are interested in seeing one in person and you have not yet done so, let me know. We might be able to figure some way to meet and have you check mine out. Its not for sale though.
Pancho Villa
01-03-2010, 01:51
Serious competitors and instructors (ie Pat Rodgers) have noticed that EOTechs have a tendancy to break down under rough use.
Define "rough use":
A 3-5k round carbine course
Serious practice for / involvement in 3-gun competitions
etc...
Just food for thought. Pat Rodgers in particular has documented numerous cases of EOTechs' internals simply failing under the use he puts them under his classes. If you ever plan some "serious work" with your rifle you may want to consider going with a magpul BUIS and save your pennies for an aimpoint.
YMMV of course. I stuck an EOTech 552 on an AK-74 clone (WASR) and fired probably 3000 rounds without issue.
Serious competitors and instructors (ie Pat Rodgers) have noticed that EOTechs have a tendancy to break down under rough use.
Define "rough use":
A 3-5k round carbine course
Serious practice for / involvement in 3-gun competitions
etc...
Just food for thought. Pat Rodgers in particular has documented numerous cases of EOTechs' internals simply failing under the use he puts them under his classes. If you ever plan some "serious work" with your rifle you may want to consider going with a magpul BUIS and save your pennies for an aimpoint.
YMMV of course. I stuck an EOTech 552 on an AK-74 clone (WASR) and fired probably 3000 rounds without issue.
Not to mention the XPS specifically addressed the issue of the recoils affects on the battery retention spring. With the batteries mounted longitudinally on the previous EOTechs the recoil was being sent right through them causing premature failures. The XPS uses a transversely mounted 123 battery which should solve this issue. I haven't had any issues yet in all conditions included about 25 below a couple weeks ago. The sight outperformed my fingers that's for sure. [Tooth]
Birddog1911
01-03-2010, 09:25
Serious competitors and instructors (ie Pat Rodgers) have noticed that EOTechs have a tendancy to break down under rough use.
Define "rough use":
A 3-5k round carbine course
Serious practice for / involvement in 3-gun competitions
etc...
Just food for thought. Pat Rodgers in particular has documented numerous cases of EOTechs' internals simply failing under the use he puts them under his classes. If you ever plan some "serious work" with your rifle you may want to consider going with a magpul BUIS and save your pennies for an aimpoint.
YMMV of course. I stuck an EOTech 552 on an AK-74 clone (WASR) and fired probably 3000 rounds without issue.
This information is a bit old. Did it happen; not in my personal experience, but there "seems" to be enough corroboration to lend it truth. However, I'm fairly sure that these issues were addressed with the A.65 version, and I know the XPS addresses them as well.
I have had2 different 512s, and I never had any trouble. Simple to mount, seem damned near bullet proof, and extremely quick target aquisition. I prefer them to the Aimpoints in respect to target aquisition; obviously no one can beat Aimpoint when it comes to battery life. Of course, I don't use mine to the point where a 5 year battery life is truly important to me; target aquisition is.
Bailey Guns
01-03-2010, 09:49
***DISCLAIMER: I am NOT an operator***
OK, with that outta the way I can say I've owned both Aimpoints and EoTechs. I've shot EoTechs far more than Aimpoints and prefer them over Aimpoints. I just get a better field of view with an EoTech. I've never had nor heard of a single issue with any EoTech I've owned or sold.
I can say my son has used an EoTech on 5 combat tours between Iraq and Afghanistan. He swears by them and his unit adopted EoTechs after originally being issued Aimpoints.
He's still got the one I gave him 04...he's gone through 4 issued rifles since then, same EoTech.
I don't doubt someone, somewhere along the way got a bad one...or ten. But I think they're a solid piece of gear and they've proved themselves in combat far more often than they've failed.
Course, if you're the guy using one that fails in combat you probably won't have very nice things to say about them.
Colorado Luckydog
01-03-2010, 10:01
This is the gun I was thinking about putting it on. This going to be my main coyote gun, occaisional plinker and SHTFG. Are the Eotech type sights good for hunting or am I better off with the Nikon I have on it?
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv97/luckydogcolorado/IMG_7966.jpg
Pancho Villa
01-03-2010, 10:06
FFS what kind of cheekweld do you get with that scope? Or is it more like chinweld? [Tooth]
The answer to your question depends on a few things. A high-powered scope makes closer-in shots more difficult, mainly in the target aquisition department. If you think you will be taking some shots at a range at which it becomes difficult to aquire and engage moving targets, probably better to go with something like an EOTech.
Also, thank you Birddog and Baily, for the updates re: EOTech reliability.
i have had 4 eotechs and still have a couple the other two were either sold or traded for other projects. they have seen several thousand rounds and no problems. i have had the 551 512 552 models and all worked great. aimpoint acog and eotech are all .mil proven and withstand the abuse. personal preference is what it all comes down to.
as far as your gun goes invest in a larue tactical quick detach mount for both your scope and eotech. they have amazing return to zero so no need to sight them in each time. use the scope for yotes and the eotech for the rest
For your use I highly suggest checking out a Burris XTR 1-4x. I have one and love it as a good all around scope. 1x for CQB and up to 4x for the magnification you're talking about. That and they're local (Greeley) so that's another bonus.
going along with jer i got a millet dms 1-4 and that thing is badass. just put it in a larue mount and i love the thing.
lead_magnet
01-29-2010, 01:44
I realize I'm jumping in a little late here, but here goes.
PERSONALLY, I can't stand EoTechs, I hate the slow design (having to repeatedly tap a button to brighten/dim) ... makes its SLOOOOOW for going from dark to light environments. Also, mine and all the others I've encountered were chock full of paralax. I'll never touch another one.
I know I'm in the minority perspective on the issue, but I figured I'd toss in my $.02
Lead, I'd love to see a picture of Paralax on an EOTech. After 4 years of using them across 4 different AR rifles and now being on my 6th EOT, I've never seen anything resembling paralax in the window. I can also see where you could consider the adjustment slow, but I don't know that in my opinion that the issue is going from light to dark, but rather from dark to light. Then again, there are few situations that I can actually envision where I wouldn't have time to tap the up button a few times if needed.
All three solutions mentioned here.. EOT, AP and short dot type optics (Burris, Millet, Luepold, NightForce, S&B, ect) are a good choice. One thing though.. you get what you pay for. Remember that part most!
As for the failures seen with the EOT 55x series, well folks no, the .A65 mod didn't solve that. This is what amounts to a design flaw in the battery case and the way it mounts to the optic chassis. It's not a matter of if, but a matter of when it will fail. Now that when could be 50,000 rounds or it could be 50 rounds. But it will happen.
PS - the esteemed gentleman Poncho was trying to refer to is Pat Rogers of EAG tactical, a very well respected and successful weapons and tactics trainer. I respect the hell out of Pat, have had the pleasure to speak with him a few times, but I absolutely disagree with him that AimPoint is the best and only solution for a short range RDS. That's my humble take and I in no way shape or form hold a candle to Pats experience or trigger time. He has earned his opinion of the EOTech primarily based on significant failures during the high round count 3 day course he teaches many times a year.
The XPS version is one way L3 is addressing that issue. Along with only running on CR123 batteries and some other internal shock mitigation, the XPS really does take the right steps forward. The thing that I find the most disappointing is that L3 didn't take the battery life issue to heart. AimPoint still just kicks them in the nads on that front by orders of magnitude.
AimPoint really has jumped ahead in many folks opinions with the H-1 and T-1. Given the wide and rapid adoption, I think it's fair to say that it is a viable option. Both the XPS and H/T-1 can be had for about the same price with the rare deal cropping up here and there.
On that specific rifle, I think the recommendation to look at a 1-4x short dot like optic such as the Burris or Millet is the direction I would go. Get it as close to the bore line as you can and still have a comfortable hold and cheek weld. Don't worry about QD mounts or all that fun if you're not moving the optic from weapon to weapon (requires rezero or marking presets) or having to pull it to store it.
I will actually have a Burris XTR 1-4x for sale if you're interested. It's VERY lightly used and never banged or bumped and I love the thing but need money for another project I'm working on for the spring. PM me if you're interested.
I own and have used both EOTech and Aimpoints. If you are deciding which to use, try them and figure it out. The EOTech's are fast and provide a wide open view. The durability issue has been adressed in the XPS models (I haven't tested one yet) and it is a great option for close range shooting (< 100 yds). The EOTech also are more forgiving in that you can shoot from unorthodox positions easier. I prefer the Aimpoint because the single dot (I know, EOTech has one) is faster FOR ME as it obstructs less of my vision when moving through a shoothouse. If you are keeping both eyes open then field of view is not an issue. Nose to charging handle position is more critical with the Aimpoint but that doesn't matter if your form and fundamentals are correct. The 4 MOA dot on Aimpoints still allows hits on targets to 300m as 4 MOA is only 12" , I know this from combat experience. Either one is a great chioce. I will say this, when the US Army adopted EOTech for soldiers, all of us in SOCOM kept our M68's (Aimpoint Comp M2).
Or just splurge and get a Leupould CQT ($800) or a Schmidt & Bender Short Dot ($2000+)
Here is an interesting take on the EOTech versus Aimpoint issue:
The return of EOTech (http://www.kyledefoor.com/)
I started out using red dot sights in 1995, the models were the Aimpoint 3000 and 5000 if memory serves. Back then you couldn't get one until you had a little time in and had proven yourself with iron sights. Once you did get one, wow, what a difference in speed! My only complaint was the 4 MOA dots AP used and continues to use weren't that accurate. I was actually more accurate with irons!
In 1999, during a carbine refresher class, Jerry Barnhart introduced us to EOTech. Jerry was a Michigan boy and EOTech was headquartered there, so it was a natural fit for him to be using their sight. Jerry showed us the ins and outs of the sight, and we purchased about 100 or so. Again, if memory serves, it was called a Holosight at the time and Bushnell was the majority owner instead of L3 Communications.
I used an EOTech primarily because it was more accurate for our 200m quals with its 1MOA center dot, and the 6 o'clock portion of the 65 MOA ring was primo for CQB type shooting, as it provided a true POA/POI at 7-10m. Around 2000 we got the EOTech 552s that ran on double A's. At the time we were trying like mad to get all systems (sights, lights, goggles, lasers, GPS) to run off of one battery type and with the 552 we could achieve that. But because of the battery issues with the 552 I switched back to AP for my last 2 years in the military.
The problems with the battery compartments on the 512 and 552 models have been addressed before. I recently did a tutorial here on how to make the battery compartment bomb proof. This was the one weak spot in an otherwise excellent product. It is the reason I used an AP for so long until now.
And now..... EOTech has not only dramatically improved their product, they also upped the ante in the red dot world with the new XPS series. The biggest thing they did was listen to the end-users about what was needed, not needed, and they executed the final product in the XPS.
EOTech and I talked a few months ago about me giving the XPS a good thrashing. I made it known I preferred and reccommended to others the AP Micro. Rod Coons at EOTech sounded supremely confident in the XPS and said he even knew of my reputation for abusing gear. So began the beating.
I've got about 5000 rds through the XPS and I've had no problems whatsoever. I use the "standard" EOTech reticle. That is a 65 MOA ring with a 1 MOA dot in the center. That way I can be very accurate for distance and fast for up close work. There is no reticle that I know of that is "faster" than this one. That reticle is also useful in range estimation. Average man will fit in the ring at 100 yds, half the ring at 200, etc.
Notice that EOTech listened to our complaints about the battery compartment as well. They switched it to go perpendicular to the barrel and recoil. This alleviates the battery compartment problems of old. It also runs on 1 CR 123 battery, vice 2 AAs or 2 of anything else. This is key aspect in space (on the rail, think lasers) and weight saving.
The battery lasts a long time. EOTech claims 600 hours, which right now I believe it will do. I went over 400 hours in the cold before I inadvertently changed the battery out.
EOTech also claims waterproofness to 33 feet (1 atm) for the XPS 3. I'm confident of that rating. So of course I threw it in the water. I didn't make 33 feet, but I got it to 12-15 ft for over 4 hours until I got bored. Re-mounted (as with most sights, it retains a pretty close zero) and it was good-to-go.
-Mounting Digression-
I use the Larue LT-110 mount for EOTechs, puts irons in bottom of sight window (where they should be) and provides you quick detach capability (also a must)
The Larue mount has a raised spot on the back for the magnifier. The magnifier will only work with flip down rear sights, which I don't use.
There is nothing wrong with using the mount backwards IF- you have solid irons that don't move (i.e.-you can't use the magnifier anyway) or you simply choose to not use a magnifier. This puts the sight closer to your eye (some prefer it that way). Keep in mind to use this mount backwards you have to have a front rail that is monolithic or lines up with the rail on the receiver. This is because of the location of the rail stud on the Larue mount.
-End mounting digression-
I'm switching to an EOTech XPS because I believe in it, its price is fair, and for the benefits of accuracy, speed, and now its durability and battery life. I don't convince easily when it comes to optics and sights in general. That's why I still run solid mounted irons. I'm paranoid! I ran a Micro for a while but I now think this is the best available optic for a fighting weapon. EOTech fixed the problems they had, actually improved the product and that says a lot.
There is one more reason that is important to me right now, the most important reason- EOTechs are made in Ann Arbor, MI, USA. EOTech is employing hundreds of Americans in a state that has seen the worst of our recession. At a time like this, manufacturing quality usually doesn't improve in any industry. The good folks at EOTech are making an exception, and I, TigerSwan, and my bros that are still in sincerely appreciate it.
Much respect,
Kyle Defoor
This pretty much mirrors my experiences with the EOTech being a faster reticle at all ranges than an Aimpoint and having more accuracy potential at longer ranges. Remember too that:
Unlike a laser or red dot sights, the holographic image projects no forward light onto the target and thus no position revealing light. The projected reticle is only visible by the operator. The operator remains completely hidden downrange even against night vision systems.
In addition there is no muzzle side reflective glare from coated lenses like on red dot sights, scopes or binoculars. The HWS does not need any costly add-on filters that also significantly reduce the effective light transmission and makes the target less visible.
PERSONALLY, I can't stand EoTechs, I hate the slow design (having to repeatedly tap a button to brighten/dim) ... makes its SLOOOOOW for going from dark to light environments. Also, mine and all the others I've encountered were chock full of paralax. I'll never touch another one.
lead_magnet it sounds like you may have been using a Chinese knock off an L3 EOTech as the EOTech is essentially parallax free. Unlike traditional red dot sights, holographic weapon sights utilize holography to achieve an effectively infinite parallax free distance. Most standard red dot sights use a simpler semi-reflective surface which reflects a projected dot of light while allowing the user to see through the sight. When the eye is not aligned with the center of the standard reflex sight, a certain amount of parallax error can be introduced at longer ranges. The method of holographic projection used by EOTech allows the parallax error to be constant at any range, and never more than the radius of the sight window.
Cameron
lead_magnet
06-29-2010, 03:09
Sorry for the late responces.
Perhaps my understanding of "parallax" is different that yours, and if so it would be due to my ignorance of the subject.
The problem I experienced with my EO-Tech (which I assure you was not a chinese rip-off) was a POA shift depending on where my eye was in relation to the sight. For example, if I laid the EOT down on a flat and solid surface (like a table or countertop) and turned it on then took note of its POA. If i moved my eye around, the dot would appear to move with my eye, shifting left and right along with my movements. This was very noticable and I had at least two other people try it and they confirmed what I was seeing. I had them check because I originally thought it was due to my glasses that this was happening.
I'm not sure if what I'm describing here is parallax or not. If not please let me know so I can start using the correct verbage.
The problem with this is, that if my cheekweld moved at all, so did my POA and therefore my POI. So everytime I zeroed the sight, it would work perfectly until I had to shoot from an unusual position where I couldn't get the perfect cheekweld. Maybe I'm just a crappy shot but I couldn't get a group smaller than 8" at 50 to 60 yards using it, even seated with a rest. With irons I was good on a man-sized target out to 200 - 300 yards (the farthest I shot the AR that my EOT was mounted on) so it wasn't the rifle and I would hope not the shooter.
I was probably making some newb mistake, but I tried several times to make the sight work (mouting it further forward or rearward) and could never get it to work well enough for me even at 50 yards.
That's not parallax. The EOtech is a holographic sight and is designed so that the dot is ALWAYS on target. This is what you're seeing when you see it 'move around' is because when it's on target you don't have to be right behind it to see it on target. So if you move your head from the right to the left or up/down it doesn't matter. If the dot is on your target your round will be on target.
lead_magnet
06-29-2010, 19:00
That was the problem with mine, the dot wouldn't stay on the same object, it would move around with the device stationary. I understand that it is supposed to move around in the window, though the POA should remain the same despite where the reticle is in the window. When the reticle would move in the window, it would move off target.
nogaroheli
06-29-2010, 23:23
What you're describing is parallax...
That was the problem with mine, the dot wouldn't stay on the same object, it would move around with the device stationary. I understand that it is supposed to move around in the window, though the POA should remain the same despite where the reticle is in the window. When the reticle would move in the window, it would move off target.
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