What's the scam here?

[sic_semper_tyrannis]

Let's say I'm selling a factory AR-15 on Armslist. 14.7" pinned barrel so it is factory rifle length if that makes a difference. Not a 'pistol', and it is a normal factory assembled matching receiver set, so nothing weird going on to make it unique or special. An otherwise legit buyer wants it, but requests that I send just the lower to his FFL, and then send the upper directly to him. My first instinct at the request is 'scam alert', but I get to thinking about it and I cannot put my finger on what the endgame would be. The shipping cost would still be the same (if not more), because now I have to ship two packages instead of one. He still has to go through his FFL to get the lower receiver, so its not like he's somehow avoiding a background. I'm racking my brain trying to figure out what the scam is, and I'm coming up with nothing, and if it's not a scam I can't figure out the logic for the request in the first place.

Can someone tell me what I'm missing? I'm not worried about getting scammed out of money, that's not going to happen and I would have secure funds in hand before I ever ship anything. I'm more worried that I'm missing some obscure legality here and it's some elaborate sting and I don't want the feds to shoot my poor dog on their way through the door.

Surely the COAR brain trust can deliver on this one. Thanks.

[flogger]

That doesn’t make sense to me either. I’d refuse shipping it that way and tell him to pound sand if he didn’t like it, supposedly of course.

[WETWRKS]

Actually...it might be as simple as they don't want a complete gun sent to their FFL as they think it might be "tested out" by the employees. It could also be that they don't want a specific caliber linked to that lower.

I don't see a way this could be a scam outside they wanted either the lower or the upper and intend to refuse one or the other.

If it were me I would put tracking and signature requirements on both packages.

[BPTactical]

Odd
I would tell him:
It is not offered for sale/shipped piecemeal.
It is purchased and shipped to your receiving FFL as a complete firearm or no sale.

You don’t need that kind of bullshit.
Don’t be afraid to fire a buyer.

[SouthPaw]

Did you ask him why?

[eddiememphis]

He get the upper, refuses the lower, calls the credit card company and claims he never got either, fighting the charge.

He may not be able to own a lower or just wants the upper.

There are sure to be more reasons.

Regardless, find a better buyer.

[def90]

Yeah, I would just straight up ask them.

[sic_semper_tyrannis]

Did you ask him why?

I did immediately. Haven't heard back yet.


He get the upper, refuses the lower, calls the credit card company and claims he never got either, fighting the charge.

He may not be able to own a lower or just wants the upper.

There are sure to be more reasons.

Regardless, find a better buyer.

Fighting the charge is N/A because I'm not taking a card payment.

Getting the upper directly and then just abandoning the lower altogether because he can't pass a background crossed my mind as a possibility, but it makes zero sense since he could buy an upper in person or online all day long for waaaaaay cheaper than what he'd pay for the one I'm selling.

[sic_semper_tyrannis]

My first instinct is to say no and not deal with all the hypotheticals, but it genuinely piqued my curiosity as to just what the possible scam would be. I'm eager to hear his explanation.

[BushMasterBoy]

Some buyers are alpha hotels. Always sell on your terms. There is no legitimate reason.

[Scanker19]

Where is the buyer located?

[sic_semper_tyrannis]

Actually...it might be as simple as they don't want a complete gun sent to their FFL as they think it might be "tested out" by the employees. It could also be that they don't want a specific caliber linked to that lower.

.

The caliber is part of the rollmark on the receiver, so that's probably not it. Avoiding a sketchy FFL could be a factor, but if that was his concern just use a different FFL.

[sic_semper_tyrannis]

Where is the buyer located?

Good question, I could see that being a factor. I don't have an answer though, just out of state.

[sic_semper_tyrannis]

Am I correct in my understanding that, despite the awkwardness of the request, it would in fact be perfectly legal to ship it the way I described? I don't see anything actually unlawful with the method. Bizarre, but lawful.

[kidicarus13]

Buyer wants his FFL bud to 4473 it as a pistol or "other" and that can't be done when it arrives a5 the FFL with your rifle upper attached.

Not staying at a Holiday Inn Express tonight.

[SouthPaw]

Am I correct in my understanding that, despite the awkwardness of the request, it would in fact be perfectly legal to ship it the way I described? I don't see anything actually unlawful with the method. Bizarre, but lawful.

Correct.


Buyer wants his FFL bud to 4473 it as a pistol or "other" and that can't be done when it arrives a5 the FFL with your rifle upper attached.

Not staying at a Holiday Inn Express tonight.

If the FFL received it with no barreled upper on it, it would transfer as a receiver/frame, regardless if it had a brace/stock. This would require the buyer to be 21 as it then could be made legally into a pistol or rifle, buyers choice.

The only ‘logic’ I can see in this situation, is the buyer is wanting to turn this into a pistol. Legally, he cannot covert a rifle into a pistol, but can convert a receiver into a pistol, or a pistol into a rifle. He then could sell the upper to recoup some cost.

[theGinsue]

Odd
I would tell him:
It is not offered for sale/shipped piecemeal.
It is purchased and shipped to your receiving FFL as a complete firearm or no sale.


That's how I'd go about it.



He get the upper, refuses the lower, calls the credit card company and claims he never got either, fighting the charge.

He may not be able to own a lower or just wants the upper.


I considered that this is likely something about wanting the upper and refusing the lower (just not going in to buy it as this is a prohibited person or something.
It also may have something to do with where he lives and a requirement to get a "print" of the rifling and/or shell casing marks (does Maryland still do that?) or something similar. By getting the upper directly from you there is no way to trace the rifling or the marks on the casing without first obtaining the upper.




Buyer wants his FFL bud to 4473 it as a pistol or "other" and that can't be done when it arrives a5 the FFL with your rifle upper attached.


Hmm, that does make sense and I hadn't considered that as a possibility.

[Great-Kazoo]

Well since you don't know where he lives. The answer is simple. It's a ban state and no evil features allowed. I've shipped upper & lower separately, before, as long as they pay shipping, i have no issue.

[SideShow Bob]

Is it some sort of convoluted Alphabet agency sting to get you to ship ?assault rifle? parts to a ban state or a state where all gun parts and ammo have to go through an FFL ? Kind of like the DEA got Tommy Chong to ship paraphernalia to a state where it was illegal?

[Bailey Guns]

Aside from a little extra effort to ship two packages vs one, I don't see the big deal. And as long as you have cash in hand, I'd do it if the sale is important to you.

Maybe he can't get to the FFL right away and wants the upper. Maybe his dealer is away and won't be around for a few days. Some online companies do that all the time...ship stuff from an order to your home that you can receive and ship firearms from the order separately.

[lurchnp81]

Well since you don't know where he lives. The answer is simple. It's a ban state and no evil features allowed. I've shipped upper & lower separately, before, as long as they pay shipping, i have no issue.

My first thought as well. If buyer is in a commie state like CA, and the rifle has the evil features, the receiving ffl may not have the appropriate AW license required by the state to handle the rifle in that configuration.

[Alpha2]

I considered that this is likely something about wanting the upper and refusing the lower (just not going in to buy it as this is a prohibited person or something.
It also may have something to do with where he lives and a requirement to get a "print" of the rifling and/or shell casing marks (does Maryland still do that?) or something similar. By getting the upper directly from you there is no way to trace the rifling or the marks on the casing without first obtaining the upper.

Maryland stopped that years ago.
1. It was stupid in the first place (Surprise!)
2. It cost a bundle to set up the program. (Surprise!)
3. It resulted in exactly zero successful matches. (Surprise!)
I still can't believe they back off, though. That is SO un-democrat.

[JohnnyEgo]

I have made this sort of request before when I have bought a complete used gun because I wanted the upper but didn't care about the lower. The upper came quick to my house, and I could pick up the lower at my convenience, when I had the time to wait around for a background check. So for me, this request does not seem inherently sketchy, but I think it is fair to ask questions so you are comfortable.

[ray1970]

The guy could just be goofy.

I recently sold a vehicle to a guy that was borderline difficult to deal with because he was just generally weird and insistent on doing things the hard way for no apparent reason. If I was selling him a $5K vehicle I probably would have just told him to pound sand and moved on to the next interested party but I knew despite his quirkiness and odd way of wanting to do things that he was a serious cash buyer and since the amount was well over the $5K I mentioned above I just humored him and went along with it.

I?m in the camp as some of the people above. If you get your money and he eats the shipping for both items and you aren?t sending anything to a communist area where he isn?t supposed to have it then just roll with it. Maybe milk him for an extra $20 for your troubles to ship both items.

[Joe_K]

What brand AR are you selling? If there?s something on your upper that he?s after and cannot find anywhere else could be an explanation.

[DDT951]

Correct.



If the FFL received it with no barreled upper on it, it would transfer as a receiver/frame, regardless if it had a brace/stock. This would require the buyer to be 21 as it then could be made legally into a pistol or rifle, buyers choice.

The only ?logic? I can see in this situation, is the buyer is wanting to turn this into a pistol. Legally, he cannot covert a rifle into a pistol, but can convert a receiver into a pistol, or a pistol into a rifle. He then could sell the upper to recoup some cost.

But is was a rifle to start. A new FFL transfer doesnt make a rifle into a pistol. The lower is what it was when it left the factory.

[DDT951]

Sometimes simple solutions can also work.

If he ships to FFL, he may have to pay sales tax on a complete rifle as the FFL collects sales tax.

If it is just a receiver, the sales tax may be much much lower (what's receiver cost $75?). And since the lower is private sale, no-one is collecting sales tax...

[sic_semper_tyrannis]

Well unfortunately I think there will be no resolution to this mystery, because at this point it's safe to say I've been ghosted. I haven't gotten any reply since asking about his reasoning, nor do I know what state he was in, but I suspect that the state would have been a big clue as to his intentions. Oh well, saves me the hassle of what would likely have turned into an even sketchier deal. Thanks everyone for the reasoned arguments, I saw some good ideas here. My best guess is that he was in a restricted state and was trying to slide something through on the sly.

[rondog]

Fug 'im and feed him fish heads.....

[brutal]

https://youtu.be/JKDtUzRIG6I

[DDT951]

Well unfortunately I think there will be no resolution to this mystery, because at this point it's safe to say I've been ghosted. I haven't gotten any reply since asking about his reasoning, nor do I know what state he was in, but I suspect that the state would have been a big clue as to his intentions. Oh well, saves me the hassle of what would likely have turned into an even sketchier deal. Thanks everyone for the reasoned arguments, I saw some good ideas here. My best guess is that he was in a restricted state and was trying to slide something through on the sly.


It is bad enough being ghosted on dating apps.... but this person took it to a new low...... being ghosted buying a firearm....

[SouthPaw]

It is bad enough being ghosted on dating apps.... but this person took it to a new low...... being ghosted buying a firearm....

You haven't made, or attempted enough gun deals then.

[DDT951]

You haven't made, or attempted enough gun deals then.

I can handle (sometimes) being rejected by women (well as long as it doesnt cost me as much as the ex) but being rejected by gun guys... that hurts....I mean we all know what the gun show guy is....

[sic_semper_tyrannis]

It is bad enough being ghosted on dating apps.... but this person took it to a new low...... being ghosted buying a firearm....

If you spend any time on Armslist or national forums you will quickly learn that the ghosting, flaking, dumbasses, and just straight up sketchballs is just the way it is. I probably only reply to 1 in 4 pm's/emails I receive, because you learn to filter out the riffraff and Nigerian royalty right quick, otherwise you are just wasting your time. In this case I started the thread about, it actually started very promising, because the guy could write in unbroken English and even used rare punctuation like periods and commas. I thought I was dealing with an actual buyer! But you learn to not take any of it personally, because you will just stress yourself out. In the end I couldn't care less about the guy ghosting me, it lets me move on with my life and not have to suffer through a 15 message back-and-forth filled with asinine requests that ultimately ends in flaking anyway. I was just genuinely interested in the guy's endgame if he was legit, because it was a request I've never come across before and immediately struck me as odd.

The only place I never have to deal with constant flaking and douchebags is right here on good 'ol COAR. But the market audience and traffic here is extremely limited compared to other sites.