View Full Version : I was mugged?!?!
Wow,
Talk about a scary incident. For those who don't like to read, bottom line is I'm okay and 3 fools are off the streets (at least until they post bond and are out in 6 hours).
Ok, so if you don't know me, I'm a big boy. About 6 foot and 320 pounds of pure good ol' American farm boy. I personally think I'd be the last type of guy to get mugged (big, semiconfident, look you in the eyes, smart, martial arts, trained, etc). Boy was I wrong. I came home from a late night (about 3 a.m.) from a family function (wife's mom, brothers, and sister live in town). We do not live in a wonderful part of town due to finances, but hopefully that'll change come May-ish when a job in my field may open up and I can get some student loans paid off.
So, we pull up and park. Wife gets out and heads up the stairs (apartments) and into the house. I'm cleaning out the trunk. Three spanish-speaking brown-skinned Americans (I think they were Americans, lol) walk up to me behind me (that's a no-no in my book)about 10 yards away. I hear them and caught a glimpse in the periphial vision. I stand up and turn around.
Me: Hello
Them: Hey vato, nice car.
(I drive a '97 honda civic with no front bumper, no suspension, and no electronics... nice car? What've they been smoking? Alarms sounding in head, gut getting tight... familiar feel of adreialine from my martial arts days)
Me: Thank you.
(Guy in middle pulls a knife)
Them: We'll take your wallet now homie.
Me: Okay, relax, no need for the knife.
(By this time I have positioned myself on the passengers back side panel of car, they are across the trunk, still about 10 yards off. They are still standing together as a group, bad idea folks.)
I take off my watch, set it on the trunk hood.
I take out my wallet, set it on the trunk hood.
I take out my car keys, set it on the trunk hood.
Me: There it is guys, no need for violence. Anything else?
Them: What else you got cracker?
(Me thinking: Thank God I don't have kids and that my wife is already inside. If she sees me, hopefully she's smart enough to stay inside and call the cops...)
Me: Well...
(pull out my CCW and hold it at my side, not drawn down on them yet - this could've been a major mistake if they were carrying...)
Me: Just this.
Them: Oh @#$^! Naw man, we just be messing with you. We good, we ain't gonna do no @#$^%.
(They start backing away.)
Me: (Now I draw down, yelling and sight braced on the trunk) DROP THE WEAPON!! GET ON THE GROUND!! HELP, CALL THE POLICE, I'M BEING MUGGED!! (repeated... this worries me as I had them on point... I obvisouly was not being mugged any more.)
Lead guy drops the knife, he gets on the ground, legs and arms extended. One guy runs off, but was caught later. Two police arrive moments later and draw down on me (understandable) and handcuff everyone. Story is explained. I'm checked out and released. Press charges, they head off to jail Wife was witnessed. Apparently she saw the confrontation, called the cops and was standing on the porch (overhead behind me, I couldn't see her facing the muggers) with the shotgun. Good wifey, I love her!
Later after we calmed down, I asked her about getting the shotgun (we never discussed this scenario - another mistake). She said she thought it would be a better deterrent than her pistol (recently bought her a G26). I asked that didn't she know that it was loaded with birdshot and it was likely she would've hit me too? She said nope, "I thought about that and unloaded it to put in the slugs."! WOW, I love her! lol. I've taken her to the range several times and I would like to think I'm taught her halfway decently.
So any analysis/discussion on better ways to do things etc would be appreciated. Yes, I am aware it is time to move... no need to point out the obvious. Talk about scary though, wow. I only had one other scary incident like this (that I'd prefer not to talk about) but that was years ago in my undergrad when I had a job (stupid idiot that I am sometimes) of being a bouncer.
So in closing, we (wife and I) are safe, three idiots are in jail (at least for a night). Happy New Year! *Here's to hopefully a few more years before something else happens!* [Beer]
Personally, I would have sworn more. I also probably would have lost my temper and kicked the guy laying face down on the ground in the neck. It sounds like you handled the situation very well (because you didn't shoot the guy).
I have a few questions though. First, I assume you didn't shoot him because he was 10 yards away. Although, since he was 10 yards away, why'd you wait so long to draw down on them? Just kind of a heat of the moment thing? Purposely distract them by acting in an obsequecse manner? Either way, I think you handled the situation well. I wouldn't say that you were mugged though, since you weren't.
wow intense situation. glad you handled it well and things turned out for the best. I know i would have had a gun on them the instant I saw a knife. I wouldn't be fucking around at that point.
You did the right thing all the way around, the only thing we can hope for are these fuckers are illegals and get deported.
Great job, you should send the story to the NRA and see if you get it in their magazine. I love reading those.[Beer]
smart wife by the way! Sounds like I need to teach my fiance some more scenarios...she doesn't think it would ever happen to us, maybe I should send this to her and let her know shit like this does happen.
Oh so how did the police treat you about this? Once they saw you were a CCW holder, how'd they treat you? They just tell you "good job pal" you did the right thing?
Birddog1911
01-04-2010, 13:25
In the flying world, they say that any landing that you can walk away from is a good landing. That doesn't mean things couldn't have been done better. A fitting analogy for your experience. Please understand, I wasn't there, so I can't say exactly what I would do.
Part of me thinks it was a smart moving giving up your watch, wallet, etc. Distracted them slightly. Would you, since you were indeed carrying, have let them take it? Why did you even go that far, too concerned that they could have cleared the distance it took to pull? Did you intend from the outset to comply, and changed your mind when they asked what else you had? Would you have responded differently had your wife still been there? Do you plan on moving now?
Don't think that I'm being critical; your safe, they're in jail (for now), and things turned out fairly well. My first thought is that there would be 3 more bodies in the morgue had it been me, but like I said; I wasn't there, so I can't say with certainty how I would have handled it.
1. Glad you and your family are safe
2. Thx for sharing this story, i'm sure others will be able to look at this situation in the future
3. What part of town were you in
4. What were you carrying and how?
My first thought is that there would be 3 more bodies in the morgue had it been me, but like I said; I wasn't there, so I can't say with certainty how I would have handled it.
I feel the same way and I'm glad to be able to read this story and see the outcome in a different way then it plays out in my head. I think that he chose the right path by not shooting these guys. Ideally, I'd like to hear that they were dead, but realistically, this guy has a life and family to take care of, and if he can get out of the situation without potential long term repercussions, then that is the right choice. Plus, it's easy for me to wish some bad guys got wasted when I'm not the one who had to pull the trigger. I like to tell myself that I'd be able to lay them out without a second thought or later regrets, but that isn't being honest with myself. This is a great outcome for shedding CCW in a positive light as well.
Daniel_187
01-04-2010, 13:35
Glad your ok, I don't know how to put this nicely but, i think we need less vermin on the streets hint hint. and if more muggers, rapeists, murderers, thives, were to start droping, from messing with people with CCW's i would feel better. and it would make them think twice. good read though
Bailey Guns
01-04-2010, 13:36
I'd say you did an outstanding job! Although I have to admit...I'm with Stuart on wanting to swear a lot and beat on the guy just a little bit. [Rant2]
I like the way you put the car between you and the guys and then apparently distracted them with your watch, wallet, etc... Good thinking.
I wish I could've seen their faces when you pointed the gun at them. Pour your wife a nice glass of wine and give her some flowers. It's gotta be a good feeling knowing she had your back like that.
Glad it all worked out well for you. I don't even mind paying my share for a few nights stay at the El Paso County Grey Bar Hotel for your 3 amigos.
Birddog1911
01-04-2010, 13:39
Ideally, I'd like to hear that they were dead, but realistically, this guy has a life and family to take care of, and if he can get out of the situation without potential long term repercussions, then that is the right choice...This is a great outcome for shedding CCW in a positive light as well.
We definately agree here. He is safe, his family is safe, and he doesn't have to go through any legal hurdles, or the horror of living with killing someone.
SA Friday
01-04-2010, 13:42
Second guessing his actions is worthless. Combat/self defense is dynamic, never the same twice, and unpredictable. He came out on top so apparently he handled it just fine. Quite frankly the initial contact with then is the most tense moment in the situation for both. Putting them at ease by removing valuables and putting them on the car probably gave him a huge window to draw his pistol. It also leaves additional evidence to the cops that he was the victim and being mugged.
I too must admonish you for not finishing the story. The story isn't over till you tell us the rest of the time line to the moment where you go safely back in your house, including your dealings with the local authorities.
Also Big Bear, I'm really starting to question your professionalism as a musician. Perhaps you left out the part where you yelled "Jazz Hands!" when you drew down on the guys?
Birddog1911
01-04-2010, 13:52
[quote=SA Friday;152187]Second guessing his actions is worthless. quote]
Not second guessing; wanting a thorough after action report. That would include what he was thinking at the time, what, if any, opportunities opened up and at what time, etc. What he thinks he could have done better.
I would also like to know what the police response was when they show up with you holding a guy at gunpoint. i am sure your wife told the story to the dispatcher but that isn't always relayed back to the officers in time I would imagine.
i also 2nd on wanting to know what you were carrying?
I want to know what time you were able to actually get some sleep Big Bear. You were already awake at 3:00am, I imagine the adrenaline dump would have easily kept you up for a few more hours. Did your hands start shaking once you were safe in your home and you had time to relax and the gravity of the situation hit you full force? Did you recognize those guys? Are you at all concerned about any retaliation from them or anything?
lol "just this" classic!
crazy situation, glad you came out ok and kudos to the wife. seems to me like you handled everything just about perfect.
the bad guys got caught, and you didn't have to kill anyone.
I don't know if I would have handled that situation the same way, and I definitely won't say that my solution would have been better.
I'd also like to know what general area this happened in, and how the cops behaved.
again crazy scary, glad you made it out ok.
Wow, that's nuts! I'm glad you're okay.
GoldFinger
01-04-2010, 14:07
Glad your good and really appreciate you sharing this. It sounds like your wife did a great job, but it really makes me want to go back and talk to my family about this type of scenario. Seems like it would be really important that when she placed the 911 call to express that the victim is a CCW holder, may have a weapon drawn, and then a decription of me. Could have turned out a bunch of different ways if you were actively engaged with the suspects when LEO arrives, knowing who was the victim would be very important...
Thoughts on that anyone?
SA Friday
01-04-2010, 14:14
Any news coverage on this? I bet not. It was a successful representation of CCW in this state. Democratically inclined news doesn't like to flaunt stuff contrary to their agendas.
Glad your good and really appreciate you sharing this. It sounds like your wife did a great job, but it really makes me want to go back and talk to my family about this type of scenario. Seems like it would be really important that when she placed the 911 call to express that the victim is a CCW holder, may have a weapon drawn, and then a decription of me. Could have turned out a bunch of different ways if you were actively engaged with the suspects when LEO arrives, knowing who was the victim would be very important...
Thoughts on that anyone?
I already emailed my entire family and told them it is time for them all to get CCW permits. hopefully this story will help with that.
iamhunter
01-04-2010, 14:33
All you guys talking about drawing on the guys "as soon as you saw a knife" need a little bit of a reality check.
BigBear handled the situation perfectly.
It's always best to avoid violence at all costs, and at that point where the knife was shown, he had no way of knowing if any of them was packing, which in this day and age is HIGHLY probably.
So unless you're ready to go toe-to-toe 1 vs 3, you need to drop the macho talk here.
Give them your watch, give them your wallet, it's not worth your life.
At 10 yards a knife isn't really a live or die scenario. Now if the man started closing, my gun would be out in an instant.
But if I could just put the wallet on the trunk and leave, averting the risk of having to take a life or get into a shoot out with three street thugs, I'd give up my wallet every time.
Bravo BigBear, I'm very impressed. You kept your cool, and didn't draw until you had a good handle of the situation.
I'm glad you and your family are safe.
And just as an addendum, you people claiming that you would've put three bodies in the morgue would more likely than not be facing serious homicide charges.
Two of the thugs remained unarmed for all we know, and given the 30 foot distance, you could even have faced some difficulties proving that your life was in imminent danger in shooting the knife carrier.
Just something to think about.
Man, glad you're ok BigBear. Scary shit.
GreenScoutII
01-04-2010, 14:35
Any news coverage on this? I bet not. It was a successful representation of CCW in this state. Democratically inclined news doesn't like to flaunt stuff contrary to their agendas.
You might be surprised Friday. It is El Paso county after all. The conservative epicenter of the United States lol..
Big Bear, I'm glad you and your wife are OK. Everyone is alive and unharmed. I'd say you handled it just fine.
At 10 yards a knife isn't really a live or die scenario. Now if the man started closing, my gun would be out in an instant.
The Tueller Drill may disagree with that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
I view the situation a little differently than you do Iamhunter. When someone presents a lethal weapon to me while demanding my possessions, my mind has been made up. Whether their lives are worth my wallet is a decision that they have should have considered before they pulled the knife on me.
iamhunter
01-04-2010, 14:47
The Tueller Drill may disagree with that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
I view the situation a little differently than you do Iamhunter. When someone presents a lethal weapon to me while demanding my possessions, my mind has been made up. Whether their lives are worth my wallet is a decision that they have should have considered before they pulled the knife on me.
Yes but in the law's eyes, their life, no matter how despicable, is worth more than your wallet. This was not in his home. This was outside.
Like I said you'd PROBABLY be justified in shooting the knifeman, but more likely than not the other two accomplices would turn and run, and at that point you better pull your finger OFF the trigger, because if the cops find bullets in those thugs backs, you're in for a world of legal trouble.
I feel like many people severly underestimate the reprecussions, both legally and mentally, from taking a life. It's not something to be taken lightly.
At the end of the day, why do you carry? To protect yourself? Or to play vigilante?
BigBear resolved the situaion very wisely, without any loss of life or injury. In my book, that's the ideal situation.
And at the point he drew, he could reasonably infer that none of the men had guns.
If you drew at the beginning of the scenario, you're looking at a large chance your 1 gun could be faced with 3 opposing guns. That's not a situation ANYONE wants to be in if they can avoid it.
I'm not trying to preach, I hope everyone forms their own opinion and handles their self defense in the way they deem to be best. If that means shooting all three and dealing with the consequences, go for it. I'm simply expressing my opinion
I do not know how to do the mass quoting from several sources so I will simply put in bold the questions and my response will immediately follow.
First, I assume you didn't shoot him because he was 10 yards away. Although, since he was 10 yards away, why'd you wait so long to draw down on them?
I waited so long to draw down as it was a 3 on 1 situation. I was waiting to see if the other two guys would produce weapons or if it would be possible to talk it out.
Just kind of a heat of the moment thing?
Definitely, there was no thought process going on, just instinct and what little training I have had.
Purposely distract them by acting in an obsequies manner?
No, the offering of other items was intentional, though not thought about. In hindsight, I was trying to guage their personalities to see how greedy they were and if there would be a peaceful ending.
Oh so how did the police treat you about this?
Police treated me as expected. They saw me with an exposed weapon and drew down. They ordered me to put the weapon down and get on the ground. I did. They hand cuff and put me in a car. The other cop was covering the 2 guys. Once everyone was secured, they started asking questions, I gave statement and press charges. I was a CCW, they verified and released me. I did not get my weapon back until they departed. Wife was smart enough to drop the shotgun behind the door when she saw the cops approaching. She was spared the handcuffs but did give statement, etc. The lead guy said, “She had a shotgun man!” towards one of the cops. The cop simply said, “Shutup fool, I don’t see a shotgun.” HAHA. First cop asked me if she did, I said “Yes Sir, but it is secure in the house now.” He replied, “Fair enough, good job Cara.” No congratulatory sayings etc. Just another day on the job for them it seemed.
Part of me thinks it was a smart moving giving up your watch, wallet, etc. Distracted them slightly. Would you, since you were indeed carrying, have let them take it?
I don’t know. I’ve been asking myself the same question. Again, it was not a voluntary action. I was doing it to subconsciously gauge their interest versus intent.
Why did you even go that far, too concerned that they could have cleared the distance it took to pull?
I let it go that far to see if I’d be able to talk it out. I wasn’t as worried with the distance. More worried about the 3 versus 1.
Did you intend from the outset to comply, and changed your mind when they asked what else you had?
Negative, I will NEVER comply with any threat.
Would you have responded differently had your wife still been there?
I will never know. If my wife was behind me, probably not. If she was in danger, probably so… More than likely, if my wife was involved, I would have arranged a meeting between the 3 and their Maker. Thank God I did not have too. On the other hand, a 5'7 100 lbs dripping wet holding a cement bag women holding a 12 ga sure would get my attention! lol. And don't buy into the recoil myth, my wife can handle anything!
Do you plan on moving now?
We have been planning on moving for a while. Just haven’t cause of finances, breaking the lease, etc.
What part of town were you in?
I live in South Colorado Springs, close to Ft. Carson.
What were you carrying and how?
I was carrying a Glock 19 (9mm) in a paddle holster at four o’clock body position.
I too must admonish you for not finishing the story. The story isn't over till you tell us the rest of the time line to the moment where you go safely back in your house, including your dealings with the local authorities.
I think I did answer that in response to an above quote. Let me know if there are more questions.
Also Big Bear, I'm really starting to question your professionalism as a musician. Perhaps you left out the part where you yelled "Jazz Hands!" when you drew down on the guys?
I do try to be a consummate professional. Yelling “Jazz Hands” is not something a professional musician would EVER do! HAHA. If you doubt my musical abilities, please come to church on Sunday and check out my playing or I can lend you a few CD’s with me on it. The problem with CS is that there are too many dang trumpet players!! You have the AF Academy guys, the Ft. Carson guys, the Symphony guys, people coming down from Denver, the local teacher/band guys, etc… It sucks for me here. Another reason we are thinking of moving.
You were already awake at 3:00am, I imagine the adrenaline dump would have easily kept you up for a few more hours. Did your hands start shaking once you were safe in your home and you had time to relax and the gravity of the situation hit you full force?
I have no slept yet. Wife called in to work and she’s sleeping at inlaws house, but someone has to make the bacon so I’m at work right now. I’ll sleep great tonight. No, I did not get the shakes, etc. I’ve been in one other super scary situation (no I don’t want to talk about it) and that one cured me of ever losing my cool or having shakes. The adreline dump is massive but I am used to dealing with it via martial arts training, music (concerts in front of thousand plus people), my childhood (military father, great family structure/support), public school teaching, and my faith (not worried about dying as my future is secure). Surprisingly, that really helps keep me calm.
Did you recognize those guys?
I did not recognize them.
Are you at all concerned about any retaliation from them or anything?
Yes, but all I can do is be prepared. No use worrying to death about it.
Any news coverage on this?
No one has contacted me. Even if they would, I would politely decline. I do not need, nor desire a spotlight. I like to stay low profile... unless they want to donate to the "Get Tim a decent job so he can get out of student loan debt" fund. HAHA.
If there are any other questions, let me know. Scary indeed though.
All you guys talking about drawing on the guys "as soon as you saw a knife" need a little bit of a reality check.
BigBear handled the situation perfectly.
It's always best to avoid violence at all costs, and at that point where the knife was shown, he had no way of knowing if any of them was packing, which in this day and age is HIGHLY probably.
So unless you're ready to go toe-to-toe 1 vs 3, you need to drop the macho talk here.
Give them your watch, give them your wallet, it's not worth your life.
At 10 yards a knife isn't really a live or die scenario. Now if the man started closing, my gun would be out in an instant.
But if I could just put the wallet on the trunk and leave, averting the risk of having to take a life or get into a shoot out with three street thugs, I'd give up my wallet every time.
Bravo BigBear, I'm very impressed. You kept your cool, and didn't draw until you had a good handle of the situation.
I'm glad you and your family are safe.
And just as an addendum, you people claiming that you would've put three bodies in the morgue would more likely than not be facing serious homicide charges.
Two of the thugs remained unarmed for all we know, and given the 30 foot distance, you could even have faced some difficulties proving that your life was in imminent danger in shooting the knife carrier.
Just something to think about.
Why don't you go to the range, at night, in a tense situtation and have a guy stand 10 yards from you. not to mention 2 other guys standing next to him. have them run at you full speed and take you down. see how fast you are and if you would got all three of them?
You WILL lose. A guy pulling out a knife on someone in the middle of the night is enough of a reality check to pull my gun out and have it pointed straight at them. that is my opinion, not a macho talk and it is what I would have done. A knife is a perceived threat which means I draw my weapon, if the guy advances at that point I am in fear for my life (if not already when I saw the knife).
you said yourself to give them your watch and wallet because it isn't worth your life...you yourself just made it very clear you thought your life was in danger, that means draw down in my mind.
just because it isn't what you would have done doesn't mean the rest of us are trying to be macho and you tell us we need a reality check. everyone is different, that is reality.
as far as the legal standpoint, are you a lawyer? do you know a lawyer that is involved in criminal law or that works within the CCW spectrum? if not then i think you should drop your lawyer talk because it would all be hearsay.
and granted this pushes the envelope a little bit, but in the big spectrum something to think about: you say you would give up your wallet every time. At what point do you draw the line after these guys show up week after week demanding money and jewelry? are you willing to live as the victim your entire life? what would be the point in carrying then...you are just going to give your gun to the guy as long as he promises not to kill/hurt you.
SA Friday
01-04-2010, 15:04
At 10 yards a knife isn't really a live or die scenario. Now if the man started closing, my gun would be out in an instant.
Define instant. I dry fire weekly and have shot pistol competitively for almost 6 years now. Most, short of Grand Master level shooters are lucky to clear a competition holster in 1.0 second. At A class, in competition I'm in the 1.1s to 1.2s. I can do a 1.0 on a good day, but only out of a competition holster not concealed. Add at least a half second to clear conceament. Then add reaction time, another half second at least. Your instant now is at least 2 seconds, probably more.
I think if I initiate the movement my sorry out of shape broke down 40 year old ass could cover 30 feet and stab you in 2 seconds. Fumble a little and give me another half second, I'm pretty sure I can get to two arteries before you clear.
Putting the car between them was smart as hell.
Zundfolge
01-04-2010, 15:21
What part of town were you in?
I live in South Colorado Springs, close to Ft. Carson.
When the wife and I moved to The Springs about 7 and a half years ago we moved into an apartment building on the south end (at the time it was called Falcon Point, not sure what they call it now). Our second night there we heard shots ... some fool tried to rob the liquor store a block from there and got shot at. Ghetto bird showed up and sat 30-50 feet off the deck looking for the guy in the field next to the complex. We realized then we needed to get out of that part of town :P
Good time to buy right now as interest rates are still low and there's a lot of inventory on the market.
iamhunter
01-04-2010, 15:22
Sorry if my intention came across as a little bit muddled.
I'm not trying to tell you how to live your life. And if it were me vs a single knife armed mugger, the gun draw would probably be the way to go. (still, I wouldn't use the gun unless I absolutely HAD to.)
But he wasn't facing one mugger. he was facing THREE.
In my thought, I see the act of drawing a weapon against three armed thugs a priori as a good way to escalate the situation from a simple knife-point robbery into a full out gun battle.
If luck was with you, they wouldn't be carrying, but what if they were?
I think doing what BigBear did, and taking a few seconds to feel out the situation is a much safer move.
I mean what do you feel your odds of coming away from a shootout 3v1 are? That's not a chance I could care to take.
And saying "there would be three bodies in the morgue" is all two accurate. If they had guns it'd most likely be two thugs and YOU in the morgue in a situation like that.
Again, not trying to ruffle any feathers, just trying to provoke a little though.
Like bigbear said they had never even talked about it. The more you talk about these kind of scenarios, the more you can adequatley handle them if they ever arise.
And I'm not trying to play lawyer. Although I did minor in criminal law and have done extensive reading into colorado, nevada, and texas lethal force statutes (all places where I have lived). No-one should take my advice as law and everyone is obligated to read and UNDERSTAND those laws for themselves
Also, for a better explanation then I could provide as to NOT shooting the criminals, go back a page and read foxtrot's comment. He puts it into better words than I could.
Good time to buy right now as interest rates are still low and there's a lot of inventory on the market.
Would love too but I'm still paying student loans, don't have a decent enough job to secure the amount needed for a purchase, etc... Gimme a few years to find a decent job in my feild, get financial life in order, etc and I'll be GTG.
Wow, I didn't think the drawing down would stir up such conflicting assumptions. I will try to clarify on my part and then you can let me know what you think. I am trained in martial arts, blackbelt and the whole speil. 3 guys I wouldn't be "too" worried about (I'd be worried but I'd give 'em a run for their money) if they are your average joe. I'd probably get my butt kicked but I garuntee you they'd remember me. 3 guys with a knife is a no-go for me. I may be dumb, but I ain't stupid. Desicion to use firearm is already a go. Now, I need to guage how intent the 3 guys are. Will they go away with a few bucks or are they glory hounds wanting to brag to their "homies"? With the comment of "what else you got", they made the desicion for me. Now, how to apply force to where I will still be safe? Get behind some sort of cover. The best I could do without drawing attention to what I was doing is semi hide behind the back quarter panel of the car. This created a barrier that would put oppenent off balance if it came to physical confrontation. At ten yards I calucalated my odds, didn't like them. It was time to draw and end the situation. Luckily I had a very observant and smart wife too. All this happened in an instant though, I did not consciously think about it.
On the legal side of things... if it came to physical violence, shoot them center mass in the front. No back, no head shots. If they only had a knife, shooting would be a hard sale unless all three jumped me.
Well played, BigBear. I have tried to think what I would have done differently in the same situation, and might have handled things a bit differently, but the end result you achieved is nothing short of optimal: Everybody gets to live another day, and 3 thugs are off the street for a while, with some serious thinking to do about their future career plans (assuming they get out of jail). If nothing else, you may have opened their eyes to how badly it COULD have gone for them, had they come up against someone with less restraint and self control. According to the Tueller examples, 21 feet is well within dangerous range for a knife wielding assailant, and in my CCW classes, we proved this using blue guns and a stopwatch. One of the instructors (by no means an elite athlete) could cover 21 fett with a rolled up magazine "knife" pretty much before anyone in the class could draw the blue gun and bring it to firing position.
Again, glad you are ok, and great job keeping your head.[Beer]
no worries iamhunter, I didn't take offense to any parts about shooting the guys because I don't want to see someone die for pulling stupid shit like this and I never stated that in any of my posts just to be clear.
I agree with foxtrot on the shooting just to shoot is not a good idea. i don't think I would convict someone in this case had I been sitting on the jury, say if bigbear had shot the guys I would not be convicting him i know that much.
It is easy to sit back now and say what you would have done and what would have happened since nobody knows unless they are in the situation. I constantly think of scenarios like this and still feel under prepared, under trained and unready but no one is truly ready for anything like this. I am still sure my gun would have been out the instant i saw that knife.
In the end all of us can learn from bigbear and how he handled the situation, understand some of us more than likely would have done it differently, and hopefully none of us is in the situation in the future. Also hopeful the morgue talks are a bit more of an adrenaline typing than actual hopes.
According to the Tueller examples, 21 feet is well within dangerous range for a knife wielding assailant, and in my CCW classes, we proved this using blue guns and a stopwatch. One of the instructors (by no means an elite athlete) could cover 21 feet with a rolled up magazine "knife" pretty much before anyone in the class could draw the blue gun and bring it to firing position.
I have also seen this tried it with a friend at the range and know that 20-25 yards and in is definitely time to draw in a questionable situation where your life is in danger/perceived threat for me. especially with 3 guys.
On the legal side of things... if it came to physical violence, shoot them center mass in the front. No back, no head shots. If they only had a knife, shooting would be a hard sale unless all three jumped me.
Just out of curiosity, why do you say it would be a hard sale if they only had a knife?
Just from my training and research/talks that is enough to consider your life in danger (and enough to take action if they would have advanced at you).
I know it is hard to say what is and what isn't and what could have been, but just curious why it would be a hard sale.
I personally see the reaction to the morgue talk as reading too far into the comments. I don't think anyone was saying they should have been shot for mugging someone, at least I never saw that comment. I think it is more of an issue of the guy wielding a knife. With the limited knowledge we have of the guy, we assume that displaying a knife is indicative of his willingness to harm someone for a few bucks. I think if this were a case of a snatch and grab purse theft, either no one would have said anything about shooting the guys, or any comments would have been clearly marked with false internet bravado. So far, all points and perspectives seem appropriate and well taken though. Great discussion. This further encourages my idea to have a sub-forum dedicated to draw/no-draw situations. Besides, those threads make the best reads.
Troublco
01-04-2010, 15:58
Good Job, BigBear! I'm really glad to hear you came out of it OK. A testament to your levelheadedness and clear thinking. This is sort of like landing a plane, if you can walk away from it you were successful. Kudos to your wife, as well, she did superbly well! That was clear thinking on her part. Couldn't ask for better than that!
Hopefully the adrenaline rush wears off in a week or two.
SA Friday
01-04-2010, 16:00
This is four pages of why training above and beyond the average CCW requirements should be a priority for everyone carrying. I'm a blog whore and all for talking about stuff like this, but it's not a replacement for actually going out to the range regularly and also getting really good training.
I've heard of this guy up in Bailey, and know others in the Denver area if anyone is interested in advise on some good classes.
Friday, I have always been interested in shooting matches as training after the actual CCW class. What is your take on that? I've done matches, but only two. I need to do them at least monthly.
Just out of curiosity, why do you say it would be a hard sale if they only had a knife?
You guys can learn from a young 28 (soon to be 29 this month! I'm old!!) year old?
Sniper7, it would be a hard sale legally for me since I do posess a blackbelt. When you acheive that "rank" you get to sign a wonderful little piece of paper (which is unconstiutional) saying that you realize that your hands can now be considered a "deadly weapon" and you are responsible for your actions, blah-blah.
So, in court, I would have to defend using a gun with no "immediate threat" as pertaining to my level. With a good lawyer, one guy with a knife would not be a threat for someone like me. The other two guys would be argued out as they did not speak a word, nor showed any weapon or "aggression". I know it all sounds stupid. If I would've shot, I would be in jail, even if I was in the right because they did NOT lay a single finger on me. It sucks, but it's true.
My last incident happened years ago and actually involved a knife fight at a bar. I said I wouldn't talk about it but to deflect any questions and to satisfy curiosity I will make a brief. I was a bouncer, guy was too drunk. I threw him out. He pulled a knife. He ended up stabbing himself several times with my help. He ended up in hospital, major damage. Dad was kind enough to teach me knife fighting as a kid and the different artierial points that are best pressured, plus my martial arts training also covered basics in knife fighting/defense. Guy in hospital sued. Since he was drunk he wasn't responsible for his actions, since I was a "papered" martial artist, I WAS responsible for my actions. He won. No money, just the ruling. Apeals court threw it out, etc. etc. 7 years it's supposed to be wiped from record, still trying to clear it.
I did not want a repeat of that, especially now being married. I prolonged point of draw as long as I thought safe.
68Charger
01-04-2010, 16:12
I'd like to thank BigBear for sharing the story, I feel like I've learned from this thread- and commend you & your wife on handling the situation well..
even if they are out on bail, they'll always have the memory of that night in the back of their mind before they do it again.. I'd say the surprise looking down the barrel of 2 guns will leave a more lasting impression than even a night in jail.. but that's just my guess, as I've not experienced either...
Good discussion all around to cover all the points of view, and counters to the ones that could lead to bad endings, and why... this thread exemplifies one of the reasons I love this site...
and a reminder that it's not all practice out there..
You guys can learn from a young 28 (soon to be 29 this month! I'm old!!) year old?
Sniper7, it would be a hard sale legally for me since I do posess a blackbelt. When you acheive that "rank" you get to sign a wonderful little piece of paper (which is unconstiutional) saying that you realize that your hands can now be considered a "deadly weapon" and you are responsible for your actions, blah-blah.
So, in court, I would have to defend using a gun with no "immediate threat" as pertaining to my level. With a good lawyer, one guy with a knife would not be a threat for someone like me. The other two guys would be argued out as they did not speak a word, nor showed any weapon or "aggression". I know it all sounds stupid, but I've been there, it's what happened. If I would've shot, I would be in jail, even if I was in the right because they did NOT lay a single finger on me. It sucks, but it's true.
Yes definitely...Im 24[Weight]
I forgot you said you were a blackbelt, I knew a girl in school that had one and she told me something about her not being able to get in a fight because she was considered a deadly weapon.
Wow I never realized the blackbelt situation was that real as far as deadly weapon, i had always assumed she was kind of joking around/yet somewhat serious since she had so much training.
But as far as you know, for a off the street joe without a blackbelt that would not come up as an issue?
Sometimes it seems like the more you know, the better trained you are, the more fucked you are.
even if they are out on bail, they'll always have the memory of that night in the back of their mind before they do it again.. I'd say the surprise looking down the barrel of 2 guns will leave a more lasting impression than even a night in jail.. but that's just my guess, as I've not experienced either...
I have this same impression. I should have elaborated when I asked BigBear if he felt there is a chance of retaliation at all. I was curious, but I seriously doubt he should be worried about it. It sounds to me like these guys were out to make a few bucks, not increase their territory by intimidating residents. You, and probably everyone in your neighborhood will probably never see/hear from these guys again. That's what I tell myself anyway.
I'd say looking down the barrel of 2 guns will leave a more lasting impression than even a night in jail..
I'm still not totally convinced that they all saw my wife. I certainly didn't notice right off the bat. I know one did due to his comment. But I know that the lead guy never had a clue. He never broke eye contact. I like to read body language and people watch. The eyes though, you can always tell what people are thinking through their eyes. One of the reasons I'm a big fan of sunglasses. The guy was supremely confident at the onset with moist sparking eyes. When I started offering other takings he became subject to uncertain thoughts as his pupils started to flucuate. When he was drawn on, the pupil opened (dialated?) and I knew I had the upper hand. 10 yards or so at night and you'd think it'd be hard to see a mexican's eyes so clearly... it's amazing what that adrenaline dump does and how so focused everything becomes.
To be honest, it is now 3:15ish p.m. and the shakes are starting to come. lol. Need more caffiene!
68Charger
01-04-2010, 16:19
Sometimes it seems like the more you know, the better trained you are, the more you are held to a higher standard.
corrected it for you (no offense intended)... true in many other places, too (Engineering, for example)
I forgot you said you were a blackbelt, I knew a girl in school that had one and she told me something about her not being able to get in a fight because she was considered a deadly weapon.
Wow I never realized the blackbelt situation was that real as far as deadly weapon, i had always assumed she was kind of joking around/yet somewhat serious since she had so much training.
But as far as you know, for a off the street joe without a blackbelt that would not come up as an issue?
Sometimes it seems like the more you know, the better trained you are, the more fucked you are.
The more you know in certain situations, the better in control of your emotions and actions you must be. You are certainly not f'ed up. You are more attuned as to the possibilities of what could happen and their outcomes, both immediate and long term. I would have no problem killing some one. Would I want to? Probably not.
Yes, the stupid blackbelt thing is true. If I would've know at teh time, I would've refused the "rank" and just kept training. But now, it's amazing how in control and calm you can stay even when people push your buttons.
As far as I know, an off the street joe would have no problems on defense from a 3 on 1 scenario. I am NOT a lawyer though.
Does your wife have a sister?
Erm, who doesn't mind the idea of polygamy :D
Yay, off of work. Off to sleep! See y'all tomorrow.
BigBear
Yes, she has a sister. You want nothing to do with her, besides, she's already married too.
So how long did it take you to achieve black belt status in your martial art (and which one is it?). I've always been interested in martial arts, but always find that I have less time and money than it requires.
SA Friday
01-04-2010, 16:38
Friday, I have always been interested in shooting matches as training after the actual CCW class. What is your take on that? I've done matches, but only two. I need to do them at least monthly.
Competition pistol shooting like IDPA and USPSA is the highest stress shooting training I've found. That buzzer goes off, and your stress level blasts off. Learning to work through that stress and shoot is huge and hard to replicate without me using a cattle prod or pointing a loaded gun at you.
USPSA is a sport and doesn't stress cover, concealment, shooting order, or blind shooting stages like IDPA does. This can be seen as good and bad. They both have advantages and disadvantages. They both will at the very least get you shooting and in dynamic scenarios. USPSA really pushes the shooter to shoot faster than IDPA. I know a lot of USPSA shooters that can/do transition over to IDPA and do well. Not so many the other way.
The biggest gain from shooting competitions is how it changes your perspective on shooting; what's considered a good shooter and an average shooter. I know lots of LE and military that consider themselves really good shooters. I thought that way too. I then went to a USPSA match and the reality of just how good someone could shoot hit me dead in the face. I still see this realization hit new shooters in the face when they show up regularly. I think it's the biggest the hurdle new competition shooters have to get over if they are going to continue to shoot competitions.
I mean, the first time you see someone like Charlie empty a 21+1 round mag into a dozen targets at a full angry panda pace, it's just intimidating as hell. Seeing someone pulling .13-.15 second splits between accurately fired rounds into targets at 10 yards the first time is mind boggling. .7 second reloads, sub one second draws... You either say to yourself, "hell ya, I wanna be able to do that," or "no fricken way I'll ever be able to do that."
It's high level practice. It's NOT tactical pistol training, but damn if it doen't make everything else seem like a cake walk when you do it. When I went through my last combat training course in the AF (yes, we have these in the AF) it was painfully obvious I could visually acquire a shooting sight picture on a target faster than the rest of the class. I was getting off 6 accurate shots to others 2 shots on targets, and I was the only one hitting a standard size pepper popper with my M-11 at 100 yds other than the head firearms instructor.
It's really hard to reprogram those preconceived notions about shooting, but if you can and stick with the competition shooting you abilities skyrocket.
Birddog1911
01-04-2010, 16:46
...Also - to the goobers that make the morgue comments, you make poor Americans. Tell me, why exactly do you want an Iranian style system of punishment? Dare I say, if we took your advice for how to treat "criminals" many of you would be missing hands or dead by now....
I'm just going to assume that you didn't intend to imply that I'm a poor American. You don't want to go there, really. Perhaps you should go back and re-read page 1.
BigBear, as I said before, you did a great job. Thank you for the highly detailed after action report; just what I was after. Answered all of the questions, and clarified things nicely. I pray that I never have to write a post like yours.
The greatest value of this thread is as a teaching tool. It has indeed taught me that you can't have enough training, and training can never prepare you for every situation. Your cool head is as valuable as your carry weapon.
corrected it for you (no offense intended)... true in many other places, too (Engineering, for example)
No I understand that with more training/knowledge comes more responsibility.
Sometimes I wish our politicians knew this...
iamhunter
01-04-2010, 16:56
Hey just one last thing I'd like to get a little discussion from you guys on...
I've done some post-grad studies on violence escalation, and while not overly applicable to this scenario, what are your opinions on it?
In this scenario a worst-case escalation would've been.
Thugs pull knife
Bigbear pulls gun
Thugs pull three guns
From here you're at a point of critical mass where the threat display either ends or initiates into action.
The point is moot in this scenario as BigBear didn't draw until he was reasonbly certain the knife was the extent of their weaponry.
My question is, how would you handle the situation when you are NOT sure.
stow the damn hypotheticals.
Birddog1911
01-04-2010, 17:18
My question is, how would you handle the situation when you are NOT sure.
It has been beaten into the ground that you don't pull a CCW unless you plan on using it. That is the way I've done business to this point, and have never had to pull it. I can only speculate, as I've never been in BigBear's position. But my thought is that if I pulled, I would not have hesitated to shoot the one with the knife. The other two, well that depends on their actions. But the one with the knife is an immediate threat, and deadly force would be justified.
rhineoshott
01-04-2010, 17:20
WOW dude! talk about interesting conversation! Glad you're safe, sounds like you handled it well. Thank you for existing!
I haven't put much thought into it, but with a car between me and them, I'd feel comfortable being the first one to draw, even if they did have guns. Likely what would happen is after they fired their guns, they would have just run away. I think they were interested in making easy money, not making an example or willing to kill BigBear for a wallet.
Again, not a lot of thought put into this, as it is difficult for me to imagine what I would do, but once I had my gun out (I would have been pointing it at knife guy) any movement that came across as aggressive or potentially pulling out more weapons would have elicited me to start firing on whoever was drawing. I have a feeling that in reality I might be focused on shooting one guy while the other one shoots me. The ideal thing would be to duck down behind the car, let them fire a few shots then run away. I'm interested in defending myself, but not if I have to spray bullets in an apartment complex parking lot to do it. I'm not Charlie and can't rapid fire and hit targets that are more than 5 feet away from me.
Bailey Guns
01-04-2010, 18:02
I'm no martial arts black belt though I do own a black belt. [Coffee]
But just to clarify, pretty much anything can be used as a deadly weapon if the intent of it's use is to kill. Colorado statutes define a deadly weapon as:
"Deadly weapon" means any of the following which in the manner it is used or intended to be used is capable of producing death or serious bodily injury:
A firearm, whether loaded or unloaded
A knife
A bludgeon
Any other weapon, device, instrument, material or substance, whether animate or inanimateI guess the point of this is that you don't need to be a martial arts expert for hands/feet or other body parts to be considered a deadly weapon. I've arrested people in the past for 1st/2nd Degree Assault and Attempted Murder for using nothing more than hands/feet (which were used as deadly weapons) to do serious bodily injury to others...most often domestic violence cases. I just don't want anyone to be under the impression that some sort of separate weapon is required in all cases before a person can resort to using their own weapon to defend themselves.
RYAN50BMG
01-04-2010, 18:11
Dude, your wife knew to switch out birdshot for slugs because of how close you all were? That's Fuckin' HOT!!!
Glad to hear it turned out ok for you and your wife. I would definately watch my six for a while though, as now the criminals know where you live and may want some revenge.
As the old saying goes, never bring a knife to a gun fight.
Moon
GunTroll
01-04-2010, 19:09
WTF? Should have gone Seagal on em' and twisted up his knife carrying arm into a pretzel so fast that his buddies don't have time to react or flee so you get to "tie" them up as well.
http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/seagal_fight.jpg
All joking aside. Good job. No need to kill if you don't have to.
wow, glad you are okay, shoot fire I've been holding off on getting my CCW due to funds, now I think its moved up the line of priorities...
Great-Kazoo
01-04-2010, 19:15
At 10 yards a knife isn't really a live or die scenario. Now if the man started closing, my gun would be out in an instant.
while this has already been addressed. my $0.02 in one of john farnam's classes i watched him (6'ish approx 250+lbs) close a 35' distance with a rubber knife (all demo stuff) on a shooter with holstered (training blue glock) gun. before the gun was cleared for a shot farnam had already sliced & diced his gun arm. thats a heavy lumbering guy in daylight moving that fast. i have a trashed out (1/4' shorter) leg and my only running is to the bathroom:) i can close a 20-30' gap before you could draw, and (depending on training) have a shot. it happens that quick if not quicker.
as for the OP, man o man, no armchair QB'ing here. you did what you felt needed to be done when it came time. +1gazillion for the wife switching ammo. my spouse as i'm relating this, to her asked, whats' in my shottie? 00's baby 00's
just reading this whole thread and my adrenelin is going.
"in closing, we (wife and I) are safe, three idiots are in jail..."
FWIW from someone you don't know; "I'm proud of you and the lady!"
ChadAmberg
01-04-2010, 20:12
Good job.
Although the deadly weapon thing for black belts has no legal basis. It's purely a voluntary thing that some dojos do. Some will do it to make candidates feel like mall ninjas. Others because they think it's required because other dojos do it. But it's not.
Once these papers are signed, where do they go? There's no government office that would take these.
A lot of the rumor is the judge will be harder on you if you have a black belt when you knock someone upside their head. But that's the same argument used when saying "The defendant has a CCW and used hollowpoints against my client, so he was out to kill someone when he fought back against the knife attack. Give my client one million dollars for pain and sufferin'!"
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/452 for more details.
Sorry to get off track...
SA Friday
01-04-2010, 20:18
So, Fox, what you are saying is he who takes the first action wins. The knife wielder charges, and you then draw, you lose. You clear the draw and then he charges, the knife wielder loses. (Tueller study scenario applies to the above.)
Huh, makes you wonder why cops draw their guns so much.[Coffee]
wow! I am truely glad you two are ok! It sounds to me that you have a very clear perspective of what you needed to do and reacted as needed to the situation.
I would talk to the landlord about releasing you from the lease since they have not provided a safe place to reside and for your familys safety.
Not shooting was smart as you only reacted with enough force to stop and put a end to the situation at hand. It is never a wise thing to act in a extreme violent action with people around or if you know you will be known, as per your previous experience. The old saying is you never tell on yourself and be prudent in every other case with others around.
Your better half acted in the same manner as you did and my hat is off to both of you as I only hope I will be able to act in such a manner if ever the situation comes on me like that.
I also live in the south area but in a little better situation but it can happen anyplace and I have been laxed in my use of CCW the last year or so. I will carry my weapon from now on. it goes with me every where but I tend to leave it in the car which does no good if needed.
If you find a new place and I am in town I would be more than happy to help in any move if that is what you decide. I do have a truck , its small but its still a truck.
good luck and keep us up to date.
thank you jon
Foxtrot, i think everyone is saying (well i can't speak for everyone), so i am saying:
I would draw the instant i saw the knife....not shoot. it is a perceived threat but I can't tell you if i am in fear for my life (I wasn't there). But just seeing the knife pulled out is enough to instantly draw the weapon.
You say cops pull their guns a lot but rarely shoot. Cops also aren't snuck up on in the middle of the night and surprised by three thugs one with a knife out. They are in uniform, get respect (most of the time) from about everyone and people know they have a gun, people know the cops know how to use the gun, they know they will get into trouble for trying to fuck with a cop. hardly the same. And most of the time cops are called to a scene and are prepared for whats going on or have some sort of idea as to the scenario where a CCW might just be walking along talking on his cell phone eating a hamburger when all of a sudden they are getting mugged or shot or ??
And to answer your question the average LEO would have a gun drawn on the guy telling him to drop the knife. If the guy reaches into his pocket he will probably be shot. If he complies he probably won't.
We also aren't LEOs, don't have their training, their responsibility or their authority.
In the end we are responsible for our own safety as CCW and that is what we carry for. Helping others using your CCW is a whole other topic.
and the tueller situation could easily apply to this situation. these are all "what ifs" but that is what you are looking for I guess:
what happens if the guy sees bigbear reaching for his wallet or watch and suddenly charges and the other two react and are right behind him. the tueller situation works both ways. the CCW knows the guy is going to charge and would have an even quicker response time. you never know when somebody who just pulled a knife on you wanting all your stuff will run at you or what they are going to do. So i don't see how the tueller scenario does not apply.
ETA: Just read your next couple responses...so it appears we are on the same page as far as drawing not with the intent to kill but to save yourself time if something does go down. the way I read your post it sounded like you were against drawing at all in this situation.
so some of what I read may be redundant or an effort to see my way of thinking but it sounds like we are in agreement it is best to draw and be prepared to shoot but not just draw and shoot.
ChunkyMonkey
01-04-2010, 21:35
Good job Bear, hope your finances will work out fine. [Beer]
clublights
01-04-2010, 21:46
Big Bear.....Glad Your Safe and all worked out in your favor..
as a few others have stated.. you handled it much more calmly then I think I would but then again in the couple of times I've had guns shoved in my face by bad guys I remember being really calm (and I think that scared THEM more then anything I could have shouted). Interesting how extreme situations bring you to focus quite strongly.
And as at least one other poster has said.. I think I need to move getting my CCW WAY up on the list of things to do .
in closing...
Yes get out there an by that wife of yours a bottle of her favorite wine and some flowers. She's earned them . [Flower]
One problem I have with the Tueller drill is that it only applies if the person being charged doesn't move at all. If I'm standing on the street or in a parking lot, and someone charges me (under ideal circumstances) I'm confident that I can move sideways enough, and fast enough, to give me at least one extra second before getting stabbed. With that said, that doesn't always mean that every situation will be ideal and I should rely on what I could do in the proper circumstance. I think it is a good guide to go by and keep in the back of your mind as a worst case scenario. You're going to be better off if you assume worst case scenario* That last sentence is just in refering to dodging a sprinter with a knife; I'm not trying to suggest you should assume the worst and start shooting at anyone that makes you uneasy.
I am gald you are both ok! This has sure got me thinking about how I carry. Often it's in the backpack, not on my person.
And it don't forget, it's was really 2 against 3 with the back up carry there (your wife ;) ). Bravo to her. I wish I could find one like that.
Thanks for sharing this with us. If, god forbid, I ever find myself in this situation, I hope I will be as cool as you were.
clublights
01-04-2010, 21:59
Oh... I forgot..........
Tho I'm not second guessing BigBear with this statement I find it to be true..
The "Standard Thug" ( oh sure not ALL of them but 99.9%) know NOTHING about force escalation. If they had guns they would have come out BEFORE the knife. they pulled a knife ( and only one) cuz that's all they had on em .( if this is incorrect I'm sure BigBear can correct me) but that has always been my experience..
Anyone can feel free to correct me with stories of your own . I'd enjoy hearing them and learning new things :-)
SigShooter
01-04-2010, 22:13
Hats off to Big Bear.
Bottom line... he and his wife are alive, neither of them is looking at charges and they aren't prepping for a "wrongful death" lawsuit.
Both of their coolness under pressure is worth emulating, and the results couldn't really be better.
[Beer]
After all, having a CCW isn't license to judge or punish the wicked, it's just license to carry a self defense tool. Just like martial arts training, knowing when not to use it is just as important as knowing how to use it.
Batteriesnare
01-04-2010, 22:31
I'm thankful that you and your family are safe! I think you handled the situation very well, and I'm thankful to know that there are responsible, level headed, squared away dudes out there like yourself. Kudos to your wife as well, I think her actions were equally well conducted given the situation!
Thank you for sharing!
I'm curious about some other things, but you are not at all obligated to answer them BigBear.
1) What kind of charges did you press?
2) If you came from a family function at 3:00am, were you asked if you had anything to drink? I personally would have been worried about that.
Quick question to all. What are your thoughts on warning shots, provided there is an approiate back stop, like the soft cool grass under ones feet? Or a 12ga with bird shot fired into the air. I know there is the issue of "discharging a firearm", but I don't think that's a felony.
Staurt, there was a long list of charges present courtesy of the police. They included harrassment, felony threatening, armed assualt, brandishing a knife longer than 5 inches, etc etc.
To answer your other question, neither I nor my wife drink... so nothing to worry about there.
For RL45ACP... There is no such thing as a warning shot towards humans. A stray dog or something maybe. When it's human on human, either kill them or don't shoot... my two cents.
A few pages ago someone asked where the papers for the blackbelt signee go. I have no answer to that. I don't know. I would rather keep my calm and my butt out of prison than appear in court and that paper magically appears.
Woke up for a snack. Back to bed. Any other questions?
ChunkyMonkey
01-04-2010, 23:03
YES! what snack? I am hungry too.
tbaby303
01-04-2010, 23:11
Man what a story. I hope that never happen to anyone on this form. Glad you made it out safe and them bastar are in jail. Dam young punks, I think i would of have put my gun down and beat the living crap out of them. Glad you keep your kool.
Man what a story. I hope that never happen to anyone on this form.
[Bang]
rl45acp: No go on warning shots. There is no way to justify them. Guns should only be used as a last resort. I personally categorize waring shots the same as non-lethal ammo (for a civilian). If you aren't ready to kill/mortally wound the person on the other end, then the gun shouldn't even be in the equation in the first place.
Troublco
01-05-2010, 00:24
Guns are lethal force. If you don't feel you are in enough danger to use the gun to kill your attacker, there's no point shooting at all. Shooting to wound will get YOU in a heap of trouble. Same with a "Warning Shot".
Good points that I have to agree with, I digress. [Stooge]
Exactly SA Friday. I have no argument against NOT drawing down on the suspects. Your only safe once you have it out and on target really.
The only argument I have is drawing with the only intent to kill them, JUST because one has a knife. That is the flawed logic I have issue with.
Just so I understand: Are you saying that a knife wielding assailant at 30 feet is justification to draw down on them, but not necessarily to shoot? I would be in total agreement. There is no obligation to shoot them if they are not an immediate threat to you. BigBear handled the situation with the correct amount of restraint, yet was in a position to control the situation. The criminal's error came in bringing a knife to a gun fight and underestimating his intended victim.
newracer
01-05-2010, 12:41
Glad to hear you are OK and it ended well. I definitely expect to read this in an upcomming issue of American Rifleman.
Im late to the party.
1 more good job and a fantastic job to your wife for checking up on you and then taking all the correct actions in my opinion that she did.
Thanks for sharing, I will share with my wife as a learning oppurtunity.
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs189.snc3/19656_269679688775_586393775_4494279_7040101_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4489743&id=586393775&op=1&view=all&subj=1332578915)
Wifey and I... see, no worries! lol.
Don't worry, I'll get the pics of her at the range soon. She's getting pretty good (in my opinion).
Great-Kazoo
01-06-2010, 17:02
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs189.snc3/19656_269679688775_586393775_4494279_7040101_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4489743&id=586393775&op=1&view=all&subj=1332578915)
Wifey and I... see, no worries! lol.
Don't worry, I'll get the pics of her at the range soon. She's getting pretty good (in my opinion).
3 guys decided to mug you, gun or not there's no accounting for stupidity.
so why the BIG bear name:) ??
egad, you're almost as gigantic as she is beautiful.
instead of clearing leather you should have just thrown your car at them~
kind of reminds me of pulp fiction and samuel l jackson at the coffee shop. willingly gives up a few things to distract the guy then....surprise cock bag!
KevDen2005
01-07-2010, 02:38
Hey, I am new to the forum and had to read your story. As I have read in a couple of other replies, I wasn't there so I can never say whether you could have done it differently. You are alive and unharmed, that is the most important thing. Also, as I have read other people say, I would prefer to see those three removed from this earth, but it is probably more important that you let them live. I would like to say that hopefully they learned from this and are changing their evil ways, but realistically I wouldn't buy it even if I saw it.
I too don't live in the best part of town (Denver Metro) with my soon to be wife. Her and I talk about scenerios all the time. Training is the key, I sometimes forget that she just doesn't have that much so I keep trying to teach her more when ever I get the chance. Your wife acted very well, keeping herself in a safe position (knowing that is what is best for her and knowing that is probably what you would want her to do) and covering you the best she could. "If you think you are going to get into a gunfight bring a bigger gun, bring all your friends that have guns, have them bring bigger guns."
Hopefully you will not have to experience this type of situation again, but now you will be better prepared if it does. No two situations will be the same and you will obviously have to adapt accordingly to that whenever it arises.
People with CCW's are the first line of defense in our society. When seconds matter the police are only minutes away. Good Job man!!!
KJ
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-07-2010, 03:14
A knife over 5 inches? Sure it wasn't a washed up Australian actor coming for you?
Actually surprised they stayed that far away from you.
30 feet, 21 feet, 10 yards, whatever, if the guy has a knife and you pull your gun, you order him to go away and tell him you have gun. If he advances, you drop him. I'd drop his buddies if they did anything but run away or surrender.
3v1, you had better have figured out how to shoot from flat on your back if they rush you.
Any chance of dropping to urban prone and shooting from under the car? Take out some legs/ankles. Might have been your best option if they had a gun.
Double good fortune that your wife was inside. Mine would have had "General Hospital" on the DVR playing. Changing the shells out? That's focus, and so much for the sound of a shotgun sending guys fleeing.
I carry an old wallet with fake credit card offers and 25 in cash in my weak side rear pocket. If a wallet doesn't satiate them, things are going down hill fast.
Stay safe and watch your six.
egad, you're almost as gigantic as she is beautiful.
instead of clearing leather you should have just thrown your car at them~
HAHAHA. I'm really not that big, imo. Only about 6'0" and 320ish. Farm boy. I could stand to lose some weight. My wife is on the small side so it always looks like I'm some big monster when we take pics.
iamhunter
01-07-2010, 10:00
Any chance of dropping to urban prone and shooting from under the car? Take out some legs/ankles. Might have been your best option if they had a gun.
You have the ability to drop urban prone and shoot moving 4" targets in a high adrenaline situation?
Not saying you don't.... just asking.
KevDen2005
01-07-2010, 10:26
I think the best option if they did produce a gun (even though I would say a knife would definitely get them shot if it were me) is to shoot and move, not lie down and attempt to shoot small targets that are moving to come and kill you. Just my thought, any others?
Come on really? There was no action movie moves needed. They were beyond hand reach and I had them drawn down on. To me, they were no longer a threat. Why would I jump down and start blasting away below the car? (Course, that could be another scenario to add to the list of "sideshooting" instead of aiming down the sights)..
Our aim is to NOT have to fire the gun... not to blast away at anything that insults our "proper and common" sense.
Enough with the "ifs"... Mod can feel free to lock and delete as needed.
To answer Kev... no, you do not want to be on your back on a 3v1 no matter how well trained you are.
iamhunter
01-07-2010, 10:36
Come on really? There was no action movie moves needed. They were beyond hand reach and I had them drawn down on. To me, they were no longer a threat. Why would I jump down and start blasting away below the car? (Course, that could be another scenario to add to the list of "sideshooting" instead of aiming down the sights)..
Our aim is to NOT have to fire the gun... not to blast away at anything that insults our "proper and common" sense.
Enough with the "ifs"... Mod can feel free to lock and delete as needed.
To answer Kev... no, you do not want to be on your back on a 3v1 no matter how well trained you are.
You put it perfectly BigBear.
As for the 3v1 thing... It's always, awlays bad.
I saw a video once from a cop's dash camera.
The cop was a seriously large dude. Probably 6'6", well built, and fully geared.
He stopped a car for stolen plates and got out with out calling in backup. Three mexicans got out of the car. Each of them easily half his size or less.
Anyways, business proceeded as usual, until one of the guys tackled him at the legs, another at the torso, and the third pulled out a small revolver and proceeded to empty all six rounds into the cop.
He laid there dead until the station figured out something was wrong.
Just goes to show you that no matter how big, or strong, or how well trained you are, being outnumbered is NEVER a good situation to be in.
Easy BigBear, no need to delete this whole thread for one or two behind the curve comments. Don't delete this thread please.
iamhunter
01-07-2010, 11:04
Easy BigBear, no need to delete this whole thread for one or two behind the curve comments. Don't delete this thread please.
Nah, just delete it because stuart asked you not to [Twist]
just kidding.
Sorry, hard to calm down when I get to deal with idiots all day. No, not on this site. I'm talking about work. I work in a mapping/blueprinting division of the utilities department... here's a conversation that took place less than an hour ago:
Me: Hello Sir, what can I do for you today.
Them: I need a map.
Me: (Well duh) Well, you came to the right place. What sort of map and what of?
Them: I need an ariel of such and such intersection.
Me: An ariel? Ok, do you need a topographic, contour, or actual satellite pciture?
Them: Uhh... anyway you can just send up a plane to take the picture? I think a satellite would be too far away.
Me:... (Really? Dude....) Yes sir, we can get as close as you need. As a matter of fact, I can read the date off a dime in your palm from 200 miles out.
Them: ... I don't know, that might a little too close.
Me: ... (wow)... Ok Sir, let me pull some images up and we can go from there. What TYPE of map do you need?
Them: A ariel, one from the sky.
Me: Yes Sir, I understand that but... what information do you need on the map, scape heights, road names, dirt composites, utility mains, etc?
Them: Umm... I don't know, let me call my boss. Can I use your phone?
Me: ... (I see the cell in your coveralls chest pocket friend...) Yes Sir.
Did you tell him to try the internet? Or is that too much of a conflict of interest?
iamhunter
01-07-2010, 11:08
Sorry, hard to calm down when I get to deal with idiots all day. No, not on this site. I'm talking about work. I work in a mapping/blueprinting division of the utilities department... here's a conversation that took place less than an hour ago:
Me: Hello Sir, what can I do for you today.
Them: I need a map.
Me: (Well duh) Well, you came to the right place. What sort of map and what of?
Them: I need an ariel of such and such intersection.
Me: An ariel? Ok, do you need a topographic, contour, or actual satellite pciture?
Them: Uhh... anyway you can just send up a plane to take the picture? I think a satellite would be too far away.
Me:... (Really? Dude....) Yes sir, we can get as close as you need. As a matter of fact, I can read the date off a dime in your palm from 200 miles out.
Them: ... I don't know, that might a little too close.
Me: ... (wow)... Ok Sir, let me pull some images up and we can go from there. What TYPE of map do you need?
Them: A ariel, one from the sky.
Me: Yes Sir, I understand that but... what information do you need on the map, scape heights, road names, dirt composites, utility mains, etc?
Them: Umm... I don't know, let me call my boss. Can I use your phone?
Me: ... (I see the cell in your coveralls chest pocket friend...) Yes Sir.
Wow.
I don't know if I would get mad or just feel sorry for him.
Did you tell him to try the internet? Or is that too much of a conflict of interest?
No, cause the regional office won't accept a google printout or whatever, they are specific on what maps to use to issue permits (how else will they get their money?) lol. I'm part of the evil machine! I could've skipped the whole conversation by just asking what he needed it for and figured it out from there. Building a deck on a house is one map, building a development site is another, etc and so forth.
Know what really bugs my butt? Say you have a cement foundation for a deck on a house you own. All you want to do is replace the woodwork on that deck, not change/move the foundation. To be "legal" in colorado springs, you still have to get a $x permit, $x diagram map, and $x inspection agent!! Talk about over regulation!!
Anytime you do light house work like that, you should always compare the price and time of obtaining all the permits to the price of just paying the fine on the off chance someone shows up to ask about your permits. Well, I guess that is more for if you live in an HOA and don't want to ask them permission to restain your deck or something.
theGinsue
01-07-2010, 12:27
Say you have a cement foundation for a deck on a house you own. All you want to do is replace the woodwork on that deck, not change/move the foundation. To be "legal" in colorado springs, you still have to get a $x permit, $x diagram map, and $x inspection agent!! Talk about over regulation!!
And while they (the city/county) is able to generate a certain amount of revenue from the fees for these items, the manpower and overhead required to process all of that costs money not to mention the inconvenience to the homeowner.
Is it any wonder why the city and county are so far from meeting their budgets?
Even if you do just go with teh fine, they will often tell you to "correct" it and still need to go get a permit and yadda yadda yadda.... Quite horrible in my opinion! lol.
Zundfolge
01-07-2010, 12:31
Sorry, hard to calm down when I get to deal with idiots all day. No, not on this site. I'm talking about work. I work in a mapping/blueprinting division of the utilities department
Say no more.
I work for MacVan (I'm the creative director) ... I think we deal with the same idiots that pester you.
One of my favorites is when they ask for a map of the entire city, at full detail ... on an 8.5x11 sheet. [Eek3]
Had a guy come in and ask for "a globe of the US" [Eek3]
Recently had someone ask for a life size map of the city (girl that works in our retail store didn't miss a beat, she pointed out the front window and said "its out there, and its FREE")
Also live through to many of these (http://clientsfromhell.tumblr.com/) on a daily basis.
HAHAHAHA!!!! Life size map?! HAHA. Haven't had that one yet! Wow, thanks for just making my day! My boss is staring at me now. HAHA.
I'm proud of ya, Big Bear! Proud of your wife too! My wife wouldn't have even known anything was going on until the cops started pounding on the door. If she DID see something going down, she sure as hell wouldn't go for any kind of gun to back me up, even if one were available to her. She has no interest in guns or self defense, she's a total sheep, although one with a very large mean streak. She probably wouldn't even have the sense to pick up the phone either.
KevDen2005
01-07-2010, 18:40
You put it perfectly BigBear.
As for the 3v1 thing... It's always, awlays bad.
I saw a video once from a cop's dash camera.
The cop was a seriously large dude. Probably 6'6", well built, and fully geared.
He stopped a car for stolen plates and got out with out calling in backup. Three mexicans got out of the car. Each of them easily half his size or less.
Anyways, business proceeded as usual, until one of the guys tackled him at the legs, another at the torso, and the third pulled out a small revolver and proceeded to empty all six rounds into the cop.
He laid there dead until the station figured out something was wrong.
Just goes to show you that no matter how big, or strong, or how well trained you are, being outnumbered is NEVER a good situation to be in.
I know exactly what video you are talking about, I wasn't there so I am not going to criticize too much, but that officer was a long time veteran, was very complacent about letting three people out of a stopped vehicle, and missed the warning signs he was about to be in a fight.
I wanna make sure everyone realizes I said Big Bear did the right thing. I also can only imagine what that must have been like.
iamhunter
01-08-2010, 09:02
I know exactly what video you are talking about, I wasn't there so I am not going to criticize too much, but that officer was a long time veteran, was very complacent about letting three people out of a stopped vehicle, and missed the warning signs he was about to be in a fight.
I wanna make sure everyone realizes I said Big Bear did the right thing. I also can only imagine what that must have been like.
I fully agree he should've called in backup first thing, and kept the criminals either in the car or on the ground. He made a number of bad judgment calls, and it had tragic consequences.
But it just illustrates the huge effect being outnumbered can have.. because he was probably twice the size of any of those criminals, and yet they still overpowered him.
"Twice the size of them.."
One thing I learned early on is that size does NOT matter. An old addage states, "Dynamite comes in small packages." That has been proven time and time again. I have been to matches where a five foot, 160lbs kid KO'ed a six foot 200lb adult in seconds. I've seen the same with wrestlers, martial artists, women versus men, etc. It is all about skill. The only time size comes into play is in depth and reach, but anyone with a first years knowledge knows how to overcome that.
"Twice the size of them.."
One thing I learned early on is that size does NOT matter. An old addage states, "Dynamite comes in small packages." That has been proven time and time again. I have been to matches where a five foot, 160lbs kid KO'ed a six foot 200lb adult in seconds. I've seen the same with wrestlers, martial artists, women versus men, etc. It is all about skill. The only time size comes into play is in depth and reach, but anyone with a first years knowledge knows how to overcome that.
That being said, with equal skills, a larger opponent usually(but not always) has the advantage.
With equal skills, yes sir. I was simply trying to state that one shouldn't count on their size alone.
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