View Full Version : Ukraine, One Year Later
eddiememphis
03-02-2023, 19:06
A year ago, I asked on this forum why it was a good idea for the United States to be involved in this eastern European border conflict.
Many of you responded positively, stating it was a good idea, citing several reasons.
One year, and roughly $113 billion later (give or take a few billion, who's really counting?), do those previous supporters still feel it is a good idea for the United States to be involved?
There's certainly has been a shift in right wing punditry with many of them claiming this is now a boondoggle.
How much of that is honest and how much of it is anti-Biden? Who knows.
For those of you that have previously argued that is a good idea for the United States to send military aid to Ukraine, do you still feel that way? And why? Has there been any benefit to the United States?
Pretty sure I hated it from the start. I like Putin.
Do you realize that Russia carries almost no debt?
-John
clodhopper
03-02-2023, 19:24
Pretty sure I hated it from the start. I like Putin.
Do you realize that Russia carries almost no debt?
-John
Since they recently went through a financial collapse/reboot/restart, they shouldnt have any debt. On a side note, by law he gets a sizeable personal kickback on all oil/gas sold in Russia. He is very possibly the most wealthy person in the world, by a factor, not a percentage. Corruption is simply a matter of how it is defined.
He is a pretty dispicable person. However, I do respect the fact that he always follows a Russia first policy.
What are you talking about?
They haven't had a collapse or a reboot, that I am aware of.
Can you please point this out to me?
-John
clodhopper
03-02-2023, 19:33
1991 - 1993?
Pretty easy to turn debts into nothing when inflation is in teh 1000s percent range. Then when it is over, knock a few zeros off currency value and good to go.
30 years ago is recent?
Have you seen what we have done to our economy in the last 4 years?
-John
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt
clodhopper
03-02-2023, 19:37
30 years ago is recent?
Have you seen what we have done to our economy in the last 4 years?
-John
Wait, did you think I was being critical? It is the same path we are on. Just about the only way we are gonna flush our debt too.
that or create a new currency disconnected from the dollar. That would suck.
No, I don't think we are flushing our debt.
I own our debt.
You are going to flush me?
-John
clodhopper
03-02-2023, 19:44
No, I don't think we are flushing our debt.
I own our debt.
You are going to flush me?
-John
I am not a financial advisor. But I wouldnt hold any bonds for more than the very short term going forward. Each must decide for themselves.
Keep in mind, the Soviets didnt expect Russia to turn over either.
So I should spend freely?
Put on more debt?
All will be forgiven?
-John
clodhopper
03-02-2023, 19:49
So I should spend freely?
Put on more debt?
All will be forgiven?
-John
Dont conflate personal debt with federal debt. Very different things.
Not really.
Debt is debt.
-John
https://www.usdebtclock.org/
Debt per Citizen: $95,000
Debt per TaxPayer: $247,000
-John
clodhopper
03-02-2023, 19:57
Not really.
Debt is debt.
-John
That... isnt correct. But you do you.
Yeah but how many Russian fat cats have fallen out of windows in that same time period!?
That... isnt correct. But you do you.
You injected yourself into this conversation, when I said that Russia had next to no debt.
I have shown you that this is true, and they have next to no debt, and shown you that the United States has outlandish debt.
You argued that we could just ignore or default on our debt, like Russia did in 1993.
I suggested I should spend a lot more, and go further into debt, and wait for forgiveness.
You responded that I don't understand the definition of debt.
Go you!
-John
Yeah but how many Russian fat cats have fallen out of windows in that same time period!?
New ones are being born everyday, as Biden sends Billions to the Ukraine and Russia.
Only adding to our (your and mine) debt.
-John
Has anyone remarked on how the Biden family has deep ties to the Ukraine?
How Hunter Biden has used his father's influence to seek business deals in the Ukraine?
-John
Scanker19
03-02-2023, 20:18
Why didn’t anyone give a rats ass in 2014 when they annexed Crimea? I remember very few urkrainian flags flying then.
BushMasterBoy
03-02-2023, 20:19
We have given Ukraine about $10 billion. The Department of Defense is about $800 billion budget this year. National Defense Authorization Act defines this appropriation. Russia can't even compare to the United States. We have a 100 million more citizens than they do.
It's over 50 Billion, BushMasterBoy, and it's money we don't have to give. It goes straight into debt, which you and I owe to bankers, etc.
Just the interest alone is killing us. We pay more on the interest to our debt, than we pay for Social Security to our seniors, etc.
-John
clodhopper
03-02-2023, 20:37
You injected yourself into this conversation,
Injected myself? Last I checked, it is still an internet forum open to public comment. :confused:
....when I said that Russia had next to n
o debt.
I have shown you that this is true, and they have next to no debt, and shown you that the United States has outlandish debt.
Didnt say anything otherwise about those items. Russia has v low debt and the US spends like a drunken sailor. Totally agree.
You argued that we could just ignore or default on our debt, like Russia did in 1993.
I didnt say we should. I said that we most likely will, just as we have been for the last ~20 years while continuing to increase the deficit with printed dollars. Inflation is currency devaluation.
I suggested I should spend a lot more, and go further into debt, and wait for forgiveness.
You responded that I don't understand the definition of debt.
Not the definition of debt. Equating federal debt and personal debt. While the basic definition of "debt" may be the same, your personal debt can only be resolved by paying it off or declaring bankruptcy. You cannot devalue the currency until an old debt is inconsequential, you cannot offshore debt value, you cannot simply jettison debt through declaration, or several other means the federal government has either by itself or with other constructs to reduce or eliminate standing debt. Thinking of federal spending like a personal checkbook is how the citizens of this country have been getting duped by crafty politicians and banking elite.
Go you!
-John
[cigar]
eddiememphis
03-02-2023, 21:41
Whoa guys!
My question was how does sending money to assist Ukraine fight Russia benefit the US and if those that supported it a year ago still do.
You have gone off on an unforeseen tangent that has nothing to do with my question.
BushMasterBoy
03-02-2023, 22:45
Whoa guys!
My question was how does sending money to assist Ukraine fight Russia benefit the US and if those that supported it a year ago still do.
You have gone off on an unforeseen tangent that has nothing to do with my question.
I would say the answer is classified information. You would have to have a clearance and a need to know. That is how it is run. US Code Title 10 governs the military. That is the law. Telling is illegal. All you read on the international network is not gospel. Does this answer your question?
I see two corrupt countries fighting two corrupt countries. The current CAC is all over the Ukra. because the money is flowing. Sorry but where is the upside?
ruthabagah
03-03-2023, 00:11
Even if we give Ukraine 200 billions it’s cheap change for what they are doing for all of us. In addition, the US military complex has already received over 48 billions of military contract from Europe in the last 12 month… Contract paid by Europe, not a U.S. tax payer time involved.
Boosting European military today, will help us defeat china when the real ww3 will start.
Why didn?t anyone give a rats ass in 2014 when they annexed Crimea? I remember very few urkrainian flags flying then.
Good point, these guys have been fighting (on and off) for hundreds of years.
Someone had a good question, when was the last time there were German tanks rolling on Ukrainian soil?
As far as why we help, I think your average citizen would say it is Humanitarian, not even bringing up the price we will pay.
BushMasterBoy
03-03-2023, 08:53
The DCI was discussing on Face The Nation, China sending weapons to aid Russia. The DCI stated that the use of a nuclear weapon was unacceptable and Russia would face serious consequences. If this conflict escalates into a nuclear exchange of a global scale you can guarantee Colorado will be decimated. Most of us will die. The radioactive nuclides will persist for years after.
This is not about money. It is about our nations security. Putin is a mad man and eventually will be gone. Hopefully a more moderate government will return Russia to a peaceful state.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/william-burns-cia-director-face-the-nation-transcript-02-26-2023/
hollohas
03-03-2023, 08:57
My main concern is that we're giving our advisories an amazing opportunity to learn all about our weapons, learn how to defeat or defend against them and access to them so they can reverse engineer them for their own use.
BushMasterBoy
03-03-2023, 10:13
We haven't even used the really lethal weapons. We have been giving away things that have sat in storage for decades.
We have been transferring the stuff we developed with Windows 95. I'll leave the rest to your imagination.
My last post on this thread.
clodhopper
03-03-2023, 10:27
Should we have never supported Ukraine? Dunno. But I do know at this point we need to stop. We have spent well beyond our fair part in this situation (roughly double everyone else combined). Europe has a much greater responsibility and has done much less.
ruthabagah
03-03-2023, 10:51
Should we have never supported Ukraine? Dunno. But I do know at this point we need to stop. We have spent well beyond our fair part in this situation (roughly double everyone else combined). Europe has a much greater responsibility and has done much less.
What do you know about Europe’s assistance to Ukraine? Judging by your comment, not much… if you are not understanding what is at stake and why we need to keep on providing support until this war is over, then please, inform yourself and maybe stop falling prey to the fsb propaganda machine.
What do you know about Europe?s assistance to Ukraine? Judging by your comment, not much? if you are not understanding what is at stake and why we need to keep on providing support until this war is over, then please, inform yourself and maybe stop falling prey to the fsb propaganda machine.
The FSB propaganda machine is hard at their work right here on this forum. The failure to recognize what Russia is and has always been, and it's real threat to our country and civilized societies worldwide brings and astounding display of ignorance of world history.
One person asked me what Russia has done to me. It said all that I need to know about that person.
A recent interview with the Director of Central Intelligence is revealing about the US position and response to the dangerous dictatorial regimes that the civilized world faces.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/william-burns-cia-director-face-the-nation-transcript-02-26-2023/
hollohas
03-03-2023, 11:32
We haven't even used the really lethal weapons. We have been giving away things that have sat in storage for decades.
We have been transferring the stuff we developed with Windows 95. I'll leave the rest to your imagination.
My last post on this thread.Of course they're not getting our newest. But what they are getting is extremely effective even though it is old tech. And now they're learning how to deal with it so our old but effective tech won't be effective much longer. Then only our new tech will be effective, reducing our options.
ruthabagah
03-03-2023, 11:48
The FSB propaganda machine is hard at their work right here on this forum. The failure to recognize what Russia is and has always been, and it's real threat to our country and civilized societies worldwide brings and astounding display of ignorance of world history.
One person asked me what Russia has done to me. It said all that I need to know about that person.
A recent interview with the Director of Central Intelligence is revealing about the US position and response to the dangerous dictatorial regimes that the civilized world faces.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/william-burns-cia-director-face-the-nation-transcript-02-26-2023/
Yep… saw that too. Might be time to check some ip address redirect and look at users profile….
clodhopper
03-03-2023, 13:40
What do you know about Europe’s assistance to Ukraine? Judging by your comment, not much…
https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2023-02-24/these-countries-have-sent-the-most-aid-to-ukraine
https://www.statista.com/chart/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine-by-country/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
Some are a bit dated, I seem to remember we are somewhere at or over $100B to Ukraine at this point. Where do we stop? All this is printed money that inflates our fiat. 1 Trillion? No limit?
Keep in mind...
https://www.usdebtclock.org/
if you are not understanding what is at stake and why we need to keep on providing support until this war is over, then please, inform yourself and maybe stop falling prey to the fsb propaganda machine.
Are you on the DNC/Biden payroll? falling prey to FSB prop machine... funny stuff. Ukraine is about the most corrupt pile o crap in existence. Russia isnt far behind. Tell me in simple terms why we need to spend unlimited money on a dispute between two corrupt clownshows?
Our leadership keeps ratcheting up tensions with Putin on this issue. It is as if Biden (or the committee of people making him talk) are trying to get us into a war with Russia or China. And THAT matters more to me than the damn money.
Aloha_Shooter
03-03-2023, 13:42
I am against the unlimited checks being pushed (especially since "the big guy" probably figured out how to get his 10%, hence his shift in position) but I do still think it's important to make Putin realize his expansionism is at an end. His recent withdrawal or pause on the START agreements is -- to me -- an indication that he realizes he has very few options now.
China is watching this with great interest. We cannot afford for them to decide to invade Taiwan -- either because Putin gets away with his annexation of portions of Ukraine or because they think we've shot our load in Ukraine and don't have enough left to help Taiwan. This is one of the reasons we used to plan for 2 front wars -- not because we wanted to fight on 2 fronts but so no actor started a second war thinking the first one gobbled up our entire capability.
Aloha_Shooter
03-03-2023, 13:56
My main concern is that we're giving our advisories an amazing opportunity to learn all about our weapons, learn how to defeat or defend against them and access to them so they can reverse engineer them for their own use.
I would say that we're learning more about their weaknesses than they are about ours. The Ukrainians have been fighting effectively by combining real time situational awareness with a knowledge of Russian doctrine and innovative tactics to counter that doctrine. The TTPs they are developing may or may not be useful in defending Taiwan (lines of tanks probably aren't in the PRC game plan but the landing beaches are just as effective choke points) but there are lessons to apply in other combat regions and situations. So far, the only weapon I can see Russia learning much about is the Javelin and they don't seem to have had many opportunities to get info on it as their only observers end up either killed or captured.
eddiememphis
03-03-2023, 16:00
If I may interject again...
No one here seems to have changed his mind about the necessity or fallacy of America's support of this war.
Correct?
Has anyone that though it was a good idea last year decided against it? Or the other way around?
clodhopper
03-03-2023, 16:01
If I may interject again...
No one here seems to have changed his mind about the necessity or fallacy of America's support of this war.
Correct?
Has anyone that though it was a good idea last year decided against it? Or the other way around?
Well, I progressed from a poorly informed "whatever I guess" to a very solid "had enough!". Does that count?
ruthabagah
03-03-2023, 16:54
https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2023-02-24/these-countries-have-sent-the-most-aid-to-ukraine
https://www.statista.com/chart/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine-by-country/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
Some are a bit dated, I seem to remember we are somewhere at or over $100B to Ukraine at this point. Where do we stop? All this is printed money that inflates our fiat. 1 Trillion? No limit?
Keep in mind...
https://www.usdebtclock.org/
Are you on the DNC/Biden payroll? falling prey to FSB prop machine... funny stuff. Ukraine is about the most corrupt pile o crap in existence. Russia isnt far behind. Tell me in simple terms why we need to spend unlimited money on a dispute between two corrupt clownshows?
Our leadership keeps ratcheting up tensions with Putin on this issue. It is as if Biden (or the committee of people making him talk) are trying to get us into a war with Russia or China. And THAT matters more to me than the damn money.
Wow, pretty much your whole post is something I can Google and see repeated ad nauseum all over the internet by FSB drones.
How do you know Ukraine is a corrupted state? Who has been feeding you this crap? Ask yourself this question.
100 billion, or 500, is cheap change for Ukrainian fighting a war against a foe we never had the balls to take on. The war, is not going to go away because you decided to bury your head in the sand like a coward.
Personally I choose to help as much as I can, and this is why I am again in Europe doing shit to make the needle move in the right direction for our right to exist.
Anyone who is supporting Putin and his ?Reasons?? to invade Ukraine is in my book a commie lover, a traitor, or a FSB drone.
clodhopper
03-03-2023, 18:55
War Hawk much? How many boogy men do you see in the world other than Putin? Spoiling for war at any cost for no specific reason other than McCarthyism habit is the wrong path IMO. You are clearly entrenched in a black/white world and unwilling to look beyond what is closely clenched to your chest. Not much point in going further here.
eddiememphis
03-03-2023, 19:11
Wow, pretty much your whole post is something I can Google and see repeated ad nauseum all over the internet by FSB drones.
How do you know Ukraine is a corrupted state? Who has been feeding you this crap? Ask yourself this question.
100 billion, or 500, is cheap change for Ukrainian fighting a war against a foe we never had the balls to take on. The war, is not going to go away because you decided to bury your head in the sand like a coward.
Personally I choose to help as much as I can, and this is why I am again in Europe doing shit to make the needle move in the right direction for our right to exist.
Anyone who is supporting Putin and his ?Reasons?? to invade Ukraine is in my book a commie lover, a traitor, or a FSB drone.
Ruth,
You seem to be very passionate about this issue- going to the length of being in Europe "doing shit" to move the needle.
Can you explain why you are so involved and why you accuse anyone questioning U.S. involvement of being a commie lover or an FSB drone?
And what is an FSB drone?
hollohas
03-03-2023, 22:32
I would say that we're learning more about their weaknesses than they are about ours. The Ukrainians have been fighting effectively by combining real time situational awareness with a knowledge of Russian doctrine and innovative tactics to counter that doctrine. The TTPs they are developing may or may not be useful in defending Taiwan (lines of tanks probably aren't in the PRC game plan but the landing beaches are just as effective choke points) but there are lessons to apply in other combat regions and situations. So far, the only weapon I can see Russia learning much about is the Javelin and they don't seem to have had many opportunities to get info on it as their only observers end up either killed or captured.
You are right. We are learning a TON too. We have some old toys that have not gotten much use that need updates, and you can bet we're using this opportunity to do that. But I also guarantee that Javelins have ended up in Russian hands. And the Russians are busy figuring out how to improve their armor. They're also figuring out how to defeat the effectiveness of consumer drones being used for propaganda and information gathering. Which will undoubtedly end up being used on more sophisticated radio controlled tech.
The learning and adaptation goes both ways for sure. I'm beginning to wonder if that's the main reason the US is so happy to send them shit. We're using it as a real world proving ground. A training exercise in a way.
I would say I have gone from ambivalent to supporting sending all the weapons they can use. If we weren't already linked to European defense through NATO I could see an argument for staying on the sidelines. But we are tied to Europe by treaty, trade and to some extent by culture and I think it is na?ve to think that will change any time soon. So if you look at this war as an assault on the security of the eastern NATO allies, as those countries do, then I think it makes sense to support Ukraine for the win.
Now to those who say that we are spending money that should be spent at home, well I sort of agree but I have been around long enough to know that we are always doing the heavy lifting for Europe's defense (NATO couldn't even handle the Balkan war by itself). So if we aren't shipping mega $$$ to Ukraine, then we would be spending the exact same amount of money parking very expensive equipment in Germany. So I think that because a Ukrainian victory will better protect NATO, and because we can't get out of NATO any time soon, I think we might as well ship all that equipment to a battle hardened country that is fighting for its very survival, rather than gathering dust in a warehouse. Also, weren't the Abrams tanks, HIMARS, and Javelin's all intended for a land war in Europe? Might as well put them to work with someone who is fighting for our net benefit.
Also I should disclose that I think Ukraine is the 'good guy' here, but I think my argument is above is valid just on practical terms.
ruthabagah
03-04-2023, 00:21
War Hawk much? How many boogy men do you see in the world other than Putin? Spoiling for war at any cost for no specific reason other than McCarthyism habit is the wrong path IMO. You are clearly entrenched in a black/white world and unwilling to look beyond what is closely clenched to your chest. Not much point in going further here.
With an attitude like yours, you better start learning mandarin to be ready when they move to weld county.
ruthabagah
03-04-2023, 00:33
Ruth,
Can you explain why you are so involved and why you accuse anyone questioning U.S. involvement of being a commie lover or an FSB drone?
And what is an FSB drone?
I already said too much, and the paranoia comes with the job and the realization that the Russian/Chinese controlled troll have infiltrated every single forum you can find in the USA…. You might think “ we’ll I don’t follow any conspiracy theories website”, well, think about Nextdoor…. How many fake user do they have in there? Or the guy, trying to push the Putin/kremlin narrative on a mountain bike forum…. Yep, these. It’s insidious, and some folks live by these, because they thing that mainstream media are untrustworthy… Yet, they’ll believe a troll who’s IP can be tracked to an office building in Phnom Penh… Anyway, all of this is not worth any more of my time.
clodhopper
03-04-2023, 19:52
With an attitude like yours, you better start learning mandarin to be ready when they move to weld county.
https://irate4x4.com/attachments/1677940934383-png.656097/
We are more at risk from our own government than from China or Russia.
Wolfshoon
03-04-2023, 20:57
I already said too much, and the paranoia comes with the job and the realization that the Russian/Chinese controlled troll have infiltrated every single forum you can find in the USA…. You might think “ we’ll I don’t follow any conspiracy theories website”, well, think about Nextdoor…. How many fake user do they have in there? Or the guy, trying to push the Putin/kremlin narrative on a mountain bike forum…. Yep, these. It’s insidious, and some folks live by these, because they thing that mainstream media are untrustworthy… Yet, they’ll believe a troll who’s IP can be tracked to an office building in Phnom Penh… Anyway, all of this is not worth any more of my time.
Quoting just for the pure awesomeness of this post that is way above my comprehension skills
Mick-Boy
03-08-2023, 16:42
One year on and I'm still adamantly opposed to US involvement/intervention/funding in Ukraine.
We weren't even a year past our utterly disgraceful failure in Afghanistan after 20 years of fighting and spending our grandchildren's and greatgrandchildren's money. Without even a moment of self-reflection on those twenty years giving us nothing but a better armed, equipped, and trained Taliban.
Then suddenly the question of whether SE Ukraine is controlled by the corrupt regime Kiev or the corrupt regime in Moscow becomes an existential threat to the US? GTFO.
I'm not playing that game anymore. I spent at least six months deployed to our boondoggles in all but one calendar year between 2002-2020.
If Victoria Nuland wants to go fight in Ukraine. Fine. She helped start the war in 2014 anyway.
clodhopper
03-08-2023, 17:09
One year on and I'm still adamantly opposed to US involvement/intervention/funding in Ukraine.
We weren't even a year past our utterly disgraceful failure in Afghanistan after 20 years of fighting and spending our grandchildren's and greatgrandchildren's money. Without even a moment of self-reflection on those twenty years giving us nothing but a better armed, equipped, and trained Taliban.
Then suddenly the question of whether SE Ukraine is controlled by the corrupt regime Kiev or the corrupt regime in Moscow becomes an existential threat to the US? GTFO.
I'm not playing that game anymore. I spent at least six months deployed to our boondoggles in all but one calendar year between 2002-2020.
If Victoria Nuland wants to go fight in Ukraine. Fine. She helped start the war in 2014 anyway.
This. I would only reconsider if when we won, Ukraine became the 51st state and Russia the 52nd. Pay to blow up a country, they pay again to rebuild it all on our dime with no return? Nope.
colorider
03-08-2023, 22:48
Biden will puke money to Ukraine when rebuilding time comes. That is, if there is a rebuilding time. Putin very well may never give up and just keep turning Ukraine into rubble until they give up and give Putin what he wants. Then Putin gets to own a shithole of a country filled with blown up buildings. Zelinsky can go back to acting and dancing on reality TV shows.
hollohas
03-12-2023, 14:18
Holy crap.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11850309/Terrifying-moment-flesh-melting-thermite-rain-bombs-hit-eastern-Ukrainian-town.html
Terrifying moment flesh-melting 'thermite rain' bombs hit eastern Ukrainian town on Friday before Putin's forces lose 1,000 men in just 24 hours on their deadliest day of war yet
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230312/dbf4bfbd732b8f37c399c40373d05c1f.jpg
Wow! Looks like fire and brimstone alright!
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