Colorado P80 type frame serialization

[kidicarus13]

Has anyone observed an FFL engraved P80-type frame in anticipation of the new Colorado 80% frame and receiver law going into effect January 1? I'm just curious what the required serial number looks like. The pic is a California example. 94216

[zimagold]

I havent even heard of any FFLs interested in doing it as a service.

Am I reading the law correctly that all frame/receivers kits, i.e. unfinished 80% lowers are illegal now too?

Edit: Effective Jan 1 2024

[Eric P]

A P80 before milling/drilling is not a firearm, correct? So anyone can engrave a number on a non-firearm without needing to be a FFL.

So, if you engrave a number on the plate before making it a firearm, would you be in compliance with the silly Colorado unconstitutional law? Wouldn't need to get a pointless background check?

[kidicarus13]

A person who owns, on the date the bill becomes effective, a firearm, frame, or receiver that the person manufactured and that is not imprinted with a serial number by a federal firearms licensee, shall, no later than January 1, 2024, have the firearm, frame, or receiver imprinted with a serial number.

[zimagold]

I was wondering about this section:

?(1) "UNFINISHED FRAME OR RECEIVER" MEANS ANY FORGING, CASTING, PRINTING, EXTRUSION, MACHINED BODY, OR SIMILAR ARTICLE THAT HAS REACHED A STAGE IN MANUFACTURE WHEN IT MAY READILY BE COMPLETED, ASSEMBLED, OR CONVERTED TO BE USED AS THE FRAME OR RECEIVER OF A FUNCTIONAL FIREARM; OR THAT IS MARKETED OR SOLD TO THE PUBLIC TO BECOME OR BE USED AS THE FRAME OR RECEIVER OF A FUNCTIONAL FIREARM ONCE COMPLETED, ASSEMBLED, OR CONVERTED.?

Unlawful conduct involving an unserialized firearm, frame, or receiver - exceptions - penalties - authority to serialize a firearm. (1) (a) A PERSON SHALL NOT KNOWINGLY POSSESS OR TRANSPORT AN UNFINISHED FRAME OR RECEIVER;

Edit: I wasn?t trying to derail your thread, just trying to figure out if it applies to unfinished 80% kits as well.

[kidicarus13]

OR THAT IS MARKETED OR SOLD TO THE PUBLIC TO BECOME OR BE USED AS THE FRAME OR RECEIVER OF A FUNCTIONAL FIREARM ONCE COMPLETED, ASSEMBLED, OR CONVERTED.

I don't know what else they would be referring to besides 80%

[zimagold]

I missed that in the original posts and thought it was just firearms completed from 80% kits. I didn't realize it also included language about unfinished kits as well until looking at the full text recently. Thanks

[kidicarus13]

"The government you elect is the government you deserve." - Thomas Jefferson

Not speaking to anyone in particular.

[def90]

Wonder how the recent court ruling that vacated the whole ATF 80% thing will play out as well as Bruen in regards to these "ghost gun" laws. A federal judge even ruled last year that a firearm doesn't need a serial number and it can be removed after the fact.

[kidicarus13]

It'll be like gas prices... Up $0.50 overnight (gun restrictions), and it'll take months to come back down $0.50.

[DDT951]

Why would a FFL want to do this?

The “simple” was is a laser… but how many FFLs have laser ?

[Skully]

My hang out I frequent, said in the nicest way possible; "Not just no, but hell no! We won't be touching any 80% firearm and adding a Serial number, TOO much liability."

i have heard that sentiment before from others as well. My understanding an FFL can build a firearm and add a Serial number but by adding a serial number to someone else's private built 80% firearm they are essentially taking ownership as if they made the firearm. This could open them up to all the liability with it. Unless I am misunderstanding them.....................

[kidicarus13]

My hang out I frequent said in the nicest way possible; "Not just no, but hell no! We won't be touching any 80% firearm and adding a Serial number, TOO much liability."

i have heard that sentiment before from others as well. My understanding an FFL can build a firearm and add a Serial number but by adding a serial number to someone else's private built 80% firearm they are essentially taking ownership as if they made the firearm. This could open them up to all the liability with it. Unless I am misunderstanding them.....................Makes sense. I'm guessing some Colorado agency will be responsible for coming up with the standard naming convention that will be used.

[kidicarus13]

Has any information been pushed to FFLs yet?

[DDT951]

Has any information been pushed to FFLs yet?

The intent isn't compliance. The intent is to arrest and change with a crime.

Think of it like this.

A serial number trace starts with the manufacturer. Then goes to distributor. Then FFL. Then original buyer. After that a trace becomes hard.

But with a serial numbered frame done by an FFL, the trace would have to start at the FFL and go the other direction. But which of the many FFLs would LE go looking at first to see if they serial numbered the frame? Then as CO LE aren't ATF, I dont believe the FFL has to let LE (other than ATF) go through their books.

So what the progressive jurisdictions want to do is find "you" with a non serialized gun, go after you and say "look we are doing something about ghost guns". If they can get an RMGO or NRA member instead of a gang banger even better to make an example..

[Great-Kazoo]

engrave your own serial #. Who's to determine what the number on the frame / receiver says. Isn't a valid one. Who exactly is going to run a serial # that was never entered into a data base?

[Tyris]

I have an 80% that I sbr'd. The serial number is "0001". I wonder how many other form1 guns are 0001 ?
-T

[brutal]

I have an 80% that I sbr'd. The serial number is "0001". I wonder how many other form1 guns are 0001 ?
-T

My (Titanium tube) DIY can is TI0001

[Bailey Guns]

A federal court on Wed flat out said the new ATF "Frame and Receiver" rule is illegal and enjoined the rule in it's entirety on a nationwide basis. The federal rule is now dead. Same for the "Pistol Brace" rule as of yesterday.

I don't know if that has the potential to impact the Colorado law or not.

[kidicarus13]

engrave your own serial #. Who's to determine what the number on the frame / receiver says. Isn't a valid one. Who exactly is going to run a serial # that was never entered into a data base?The serial # wouldn't even need to be run. When CO's new law mandates ghost gun serial #'s gets engraved with CO, then assigns 2 characters for each FFL, and then a 5 digit sequential number is added (recorded by each FFL) to read CODF00025. If a pistol serial # reads 12345, that would be no bueno. Similar to having a Magpul 30rd magazine mfg dated post 7/1/13 given the wrong circumstances leading up to its discovery.

[Tyris]

Where's a good place to get titanium tubing? And what kind of tooling do you need on the lathe to cut it? I'm setup for stainless steel and have never done TI.

[ChadAmberg]

The serial # wouldn't even need to be run. When CO's new law mandates ghost gun serial #'s gets engraved with CO, then assigns 2 characters for each FFL, and then a 5 digit sequential number is added (recorded by each FFL) to read CODF00025. If a pistol serial # reads 12345, that would be no bueno. Similar to having a Magpul 30rd magazine mfg dated post 7/1/13 given the wrong circumstances leading up to its discovery.

So wait, the CO law now says that an existing serial number on a receiver must be defaced to follow a CO rule?

[Great-Kazoo]

The serial # wouldn't even need to be run. When CO's new law mandates ghost gun serial #'s gets engraved with CO, then assigns 2 characters for each FFL, and then a 5 digit sequential number is added (recorded by each FFL) to read CODF00025. If a pistol serial # reads 12345, that would be no bueno. Similar to having a Magpul 30rd magazine mfg dated post 7/1/13 given the wrong circumstances leading up to its discovery.

Again, who exactly will be running numbers on guns? The majority of LE couldn't tell a SBR from a 16" carbine, most have no clue that a fixed blade knife over 4" is legal. Throw in, unless CO mandates a uniform statewide machine, or company to do said serial #'s (
like they did with emissions testing) you will never have the same looking sn's either.

[DDT951]

The serial # wouldn't even need to be run. When CO's new law mandates ghost gun serial #'s gets engraved with CO, then assigns 2 characters for each FFL, and then a 5 digit sequential number is added (recorded by each FFL) to read CODF00025. If a pistol serial # reads 12345, that would be no bueno. Similar to having a Magpul 30rd magazine mfg dated post 7/1/13 given the wrong circumstances leading up to its discovery.

I havent seen this in the law.

Maybe I am missing something? Can you point me to where this part of the law.

[kidicarus13]

https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/sb23-279

The act requires a person who, on the effective date of the act, owns a firearm, frame, or receiver that the person manufactured and that is not imprinted with a serial number by a federal firearms licensee, to have the firearm, frame, or receiver imprinted with a serial number no later than January 1, 2024.

The act permits a federal firearms licensee to imprint a serial number on a firearm or a firearm frame or receiver and establishes a process and requirements for licensees to serialize firearms.

[OneGuy67]

When in doubt, go to the source and see what's written:


C.R.S. 18-12-111.5

18-12-111.5. Unlawful conduct involving an unserialized firearm, frame, or receiver - exceptions - penalties - authority to serialize a firearm.

(1)
(a) [Editor’s note: Subsection (1) is effective January 1, 2024.] A person shall not knowingly possess or transport an unfinished frame or receiver; except that it is not an offense if the unfinished frame or receiver is required by federal law to be imprinted with a serial number and has been imprinted with a serial number by a federal firearms licensee pursuant to federal law or subsection (7) of this section.
(b) This subsection (1) does not apply to a federally licensed firearm importer or federally licensed firearm manufacturer acting within the scope of the importer’s or manufacturer’s license.

(2)
(a) A person shall not knowingly sell, offer to sell, transfer, or purchase an unfinished frame or receiver; except that it is not an offense if the unfinished frame or receiver is required by federal law to be imprinted with a serial number and has been imprinted with a serial number by a federal firearms licensee pursuant to federal law or subsection (7) of this section.
(b) This subsection (2) does not apply to:
(I) A sale, offer to sell, transfer, or purchase if the purchaser is a federal firearms licensee; or
(II) A temporary transfer to a federal firearms licensee for the purpose of having the firearm or frame or receiver of a firearm imprinted with a serial number pursuant to subsection (7) of this section.

(3)
(a) [Editor’s note: Subsection (3) is effective January 1, 2024.] A person shall not knowingly possess, purchase, transport, or receive a firearm or frame or receiver of a firearm that is not imprinted with a serial number by a federal firearms licensee authorized to imprint a serial number on a firearm, frame, or receiver pursuant to federal law or subsection (7) of this section.
(b) This subsection (3) does not apply if:
(I) The person possessing, purchasing, transporting, or receiving the firearm or the frame or receiver of a firearm is a federally licensed firearm importer or federally licensed firearm manufacturer; or
(II) The firearm involved has been rendered permanently inoperable; is a defaced firearm, as described in section 18-12-103; is an antique firearm, as defined in 18 U.S.C. sec. 921 (a)(16); or was manufactured before October 22, 1968.

(4)
(a) A person shall not knowingly sell, offer to sell, or transfer a firearm or frame or receiver of a firearm that is not imprinted with a serial number by a federal firearms licensee authorized to imprint a serial number on a firearm pursuant to federal law or subsection (7) of this section.
(b) This subsection (4) does not apply if:
(I) The person selling, offering to sell, or transferring the firearm or frame or receiver of a firearm is a federally licensed firearm importer or federally licensed firearm manufacturer, and the person purchasing or receiving the firearm or frame or receiver of a firearm is a federally licensed firearm importer or federally licensed firearm manufacturer;
(II) The firearm involved has been rendered permanently inoperable; is a defaced firearm, as described in section 18-12-103; is an antique firearm, as defined in 18 U.S.C. sec. 921 (a)(16); or was manufactured before October 22, 1968; or
(III) The transfer is a temporary transfer to a federal firearms licensee for the purpose of having the firearm or frame or receiver of a firearm imprinted with a serial number pursuant to subsection (7) of this section.

(5)
(a)
(I)  A person shall not manufacture or cause to be manufactured, including through the use of a three-dimensional printer, a frame or receiver of a firearm.
(II) This subsection (5)(a) does not apply to a federally licensed firearm manufacturer.
(b)
(I) A person who owns, on the day before June 2, 2023, a firearm or a frame or receiver of a firearm that the person manufactured and that is not imprinted with a serial number by a federal firearms licensee shall, no later than January 1, 2024, have the firearm or the frame or receiver of a firearm imprinted with a serial number by a federal firearms licensee authorized to imprint a serial number on a firearm, frame, or receiver pursuant to federal law or subsection (7) of this section.
(II) This subsection (5)(b) does not apply to a federal firearms licensee.

(6)
(a) A person who violates subsection (1), (2), (3), (4), or (5)(a) of this section commits unlawful conduct involving an unserialized firearm, frame, or receiver.
(b) Unlawful conduct involving an unserialized firearm, frame, or receiver is a class 1 misdemeanor; except that a second or subsequent offense is a class 5 felony.

(7)
(a) A federal firearms licensee may serialize a firearm or frame or receiver of a firearm, including a finished or unfinished frame or receiver, by imprinting a serial number on the firearm, frame, or receiver. To serialize a firearm, frame, or receiver, the dealer or other licensee must imprint on the firearm, frame, or receiver a serial number beginning with the dealer’s or licensee’s abbreviated federal firearms license number, which is the first three and last five digits of the license number, followed by a hyphen, before a unique identification number. The serial number must not be duplicated on any other firearm, frame, or receiver serialized by the licensee, and must be imprinted in a manner that complies with the requirements in federal law for imprinting a serial number on a firearm, including the minimum size and depth of the serial number and that the serial number is not susceptible to being readily obliterated, altered, or removed.
(b) The licensee must retain a record concerning a firearm, frame, or receiver serialized by the licensee that complies with the requirements under federal law for the sale of a firearm. In addition to any record required by federal law, a federal firearms licensee that imprints a unique serial number on a firearm, frame, or receiver pursuant to this subsection (7) shall make a record at the time of the transaction of each transaction involving serializing a firearm, frame, or receiver and keep that record. The record must include the following information: The date, name, age, and residence of any person to whom the item is transferred; and the unique serial number imprinted on the firearm, frame, or receiver. A licensee that fails to make and retain a record required in this subsection (7)(b) shall be punished as provided in section 18-12-403.
(c) Returning a newly serialized firearm, frame, or receiver to a person after serializing the firearm, frame, or receiver pursuant to federal law or this subsection (7) is a transfer of a firearm, and a federal firearms licensee that imprints a unique serial number on the firearm, frame, or receiver pursuant to this subsection (7) shall conduct a background check on the transferee pursuant to section 18-12-112.5 before returning the firearm to the transferee. If the transfer is denied, the licensee shall surrender the firearm, frame, or receiver to a law enforcement agency.

I can't speak for FFL's, but it would seem to be a problem for them to add their license number, albeit abbreviated, to a firearm for identification. I'm assuming this is to "help" the ATF find the records when a FFL closes shop and ships their records to the ATF to be housed in their records warehouse.

[kidicarus13]

And there it is!

[O2HeN2]

BS, hearsay and conjecture is a lot more fun. :)

O2

[TheNash]

BS, hearsay and conjecture is a lot more fun. :)

O2

Right up next to hate, and discontent[ROFL3]

[def90]

Any word on possible lawsuits? Guessing nothing can be filed until the law actually takes place on the 1st?

Individually the unfinished receiver rule has been struck down at the Federal level as well as a Federal judge ruled that bans on guns with serial numbers removed are unconstitutional.

[BPTactical]

With all those digits your P80 is gonna have a VIN number…..

[bradbn4]

There are a few cases where a a homemade / built firearm may have already received a S/N. My brief look in the above text would indicate such serial numbers were not in compliance - esp if the frame was not finished and marked by the correct federal firearms licensee authorized to imprint a serial number. Said S/N often is on a metal tag and there would not be room to have both old # and new. While a full metal frame would support more than one #, most of the people opt for the fantastic plastic to roll their own.

[DDT951]

Wow. I did not read it that detailed.

I doubt an FFL will do it.

Compliance is not the aim. Arrest and example are the goals.

[kidicarus13]

One option is to turn in your unserialized ghost ghost to authorities prior to 01/01/24, and this will all go away. [emoji107]

[Great-Kazoo]

With all those digits your P80 is gonna have a VIN number…..

[ROFL3]

Then again who is actually going to bother doing this. When an engraver will throw some random number on it, if one so desires. See how well shit like this has worked for all those who got their "Free" SBR for a brace.

[kidicarus13]

I am getting information that Colorado Gun Cleaners in Johnstown will do it all (engrave/transfer back to you) for $100

Also, Spartan Defense in Colorado Springs and D. Wilson Mfg in Englewood. Unsure of price.

[Clint45]

I doubt this law will ever really be enforced, just as other recently passed laws are rarely if ever prosecuted in and off themselves, but they work well as an addition to multiple other charges to convince a defendant to accept a plea bargain rather than take it before a jury trial, whereupon the extra lesser charges are dropped.

[brutal]

[ROFL3]

Then again who is actually going to bother doing this. When an engraver will throw some random number on it, if one so desires. See how well shit like this has worked for all those who got their "Free" SBR for a brace.

What's happening with those? Will the ATF now reject all applications?

[theGinsue]

What's happening with those? Will the ATF now reject all applications?

Unlikely. They'll likely process them and have their de facto registration on this firearms.

[Great-Kazoo]

What's happening with those? Will the ATF now reject all applications?

see below


Unlikely. They'll likely process them and have their de facto registration on this firearms.


No more calls, we have a winner.

[asystejs]

Nothing about character size for the serial number ?
They like micro stamping, make the serial number so small you need a microscope to see it.

[kidicarus13]

Nothing about character size for the serial number ?

7(a) ...and must be imprinted in a manner that complies with the requirements in federal law for imprinting a serial number on a firearm, including the minimum size and depth of the serial number...

[rtr]

Colorado Gun Cleaners in Johnstown told me the following:

They are the only shop in the state serializing homemade firearms
It costs $129
When you bring in a gun you already own they will run a background check and keep the gun for 3 days

Whether the above is true or in compliance with state law I do not know, I do know it’s silly.

[buffalobo]

Ouch, that fee should be used as arguement to repeal ridiculous law.

If you're unarmed, you are a victim.

[kidicarus13]

$70 for the frame and $129 + a 3 day wait for the serialization and BGC... makes perfect sense.

https://www.deltateamtactical.com/polymer80-pfs9-frame-black.html

[DDT951]

[ROFL3]See how well shit like this has worked for all those who got their "Free" SBR for a brace.

What has happened negative to those that have the "free SBR"?

Just curious because my experience is that I have bunch of approved forms for SBRs without a tax stamp that have:

"Tax Exempt"

"Approved with conditions - See conditions on the last page of PDF"

Last page: "Pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F"

What am I missing?

[FoxtArt]

What has happened negative to those that have the "free SBR"?

Just curious because my experience is that I have bunch of approved forms for SBRs without a tax stamp that have:

"Tax Exempt"

"Approved with conditions - See conditions on the last page of PDF"

Last page: "Pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F"

What am I missing?

It's irony, we're missing irony. When we're around a group that has traditionally had interest in SBRs, and many people have voluntarily registered SBRs over the past decades this site has been alive....

Free SBRs are a conspiracy to register guns even if you would have voluntarily registered them as SBRs because you wanted an SBR. And when the law gets reversed, you still have a free SBR....

The difference is, they paid $200 to register theirs, you didn't pay $200, so yours is registration conspiracy, theirs is a cool SBR. (I guess?)

A lot of people innately disagree with anything that comes out of people they disagree with. Some people carpe diem and realize opportunities amid bad circumstances.

[kidicarus13]

And when the law gets reversed, you still have a free SBR....



Unless I missed some news, I don't know that that's been decided.

I am neither for nor against $200 or free SBR's.

[DDT951]

It's irony, we're missing irony. When we're around a group that has traditionally had interest in SBRs, and many people have voluntarily registered SBRs over the past decades this site has been alive....

Free SBRs are a conspiracy to register guns even if you would have voluntarily registered them as SBRs because you wanted an SBR. And when the law gets reversed, you still have a free SBR....

The difference is, they paid $200 to register theirs, you didn't pay $200, so yours is registration conspiracy, theirs is a cool SBR. (I guess?)

A lot of people innately disagree with anything that comes out of people they disagree with. Some people carpe diem and realize opportunities amid bad circumstances.

Well, I would have registered anyways. Even did it after the amnesty. For me one of the firearms arrived after Jan 31st. January 31st was the trust ownership cut-off date to get amnesty registration for trust. I COULD have done another amnesty regisration, but I paid the $200 because the firearm was purchased after Jan 31st (arrived in Feb). I didnt want to do a anmesty registration now and then worry about paying $200 tax and transfer to trust later. Just paid immediately. The amnesty Form 1s took around 40 days. I filled out paper work over the coarse of two weeks; everyone was approved within an hour of each other. The paid SBR took under 7 days.

But to me it was a good thing to do as I registered anyways with NFA items. It doesnt matter if I have 1 or 500. The man knows I have guns..

But, most people on forums that owns guns, the man already knows if they want to.

Look at how quickly Home Depot can look up a return just with a credit card number. They know the exact item you bought.

If a person bought something from Bubbas Gun Shop with a credit card (or Scheels, or Cabellas, ect), even if it wasnt a firearm, the government can quickly get list of purchasers. Then go sort. The government has a pretty damn good idea who has guns.

But... just in case that is not enough... go to the Red counties in Colorado. Look at 4 houses. 3 of those have guns.....

And then go to some areas of denver... Look at 10 houses... 10 of them have illegal weapons and drugs....

Go Boulder.... look at 4 houses... 5 of them have spiced latte chia made with oat milk... until they are victim of violent crime and then that house will have a gun...

And we are fooling ourselves if we think CBI is not keeping a list of approvals....

[DDT951]

Unless I missed some news, I don't know that that's been decided.

I am neither for nor against $200 or free SBR's.

For the record.. I am for free SBRs. Well free guns (as long as reasonable quality) I am also for. I just wish I could find a store selling free guns.

[Great-Kazoo]

What has happened negative to those that have the "free SBR"?

Just curious because my experience is that I have bunch of approved forms for SBRs without a tax stamp that have:

"Tax Exempt"

"Approved with conditions - See conditions on the last page of PDF"

Last page: "Pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F"

What am I missing?

The same thing people are missing when they say, Well i don't have a problem waiting 3 days. A capricious and arbitrary "decision" enacted by a LE agency w/out an actual congressional vote, for 1. But hey, you got a free sbr.

What next "free offering" will people roll over for?

[buffalobo]

It's irony, we're missing irony. When we're around a group that has traditionally had interest in SBRs, and many people have voluntarily registered SBRs over the past decades this site has been alive....

Free SBRs are a conspiracy to register guns even if you would have voluntarily registered them as SBRs because you wanted an SBR. And when the law gets reversed, you still have a free SBR....

The difference is, they paid $200 to register theirs, you didn't pay $200, so yours is registration conspiracy, theirs is a cool SBR. (I guess?)

A lot of people innately disagree with anything that comes out of people they disagree with. Some people carpe diem and realize opportunities amid bad circumstances.
Few, if any people who took advantage of the free amnesty registration had any intention of SBR'ing their AR pistol before ATF arbitrarily outlawed braces to fabricate felons.

If you're unarmed, you are a victim.

[BPTactical]

I listened to a webinar hosted by the alphabet boys regarding the pistol brace debacle. One thing that concerned me in the discussion regarding tax stamps and “fees”.
The host made it very clear that the lifting of the $200 was a “forbearance” or “deference” on the fee, and not a forgiveness.

[Oscar77]

The same thing people are missing when they say, Well i don't have a problem waiting 3 days. A capricious and arbitrary "decision" enacted by a LE agency w/out an actual congressional vote, for 1. But hey, you got a free sbr.

What next "free offering" will people roll over for?

Sir:
I'll be honest, I'm not sure I follow your point of view.............. I'm one of the "free SBR" idiots............

So yes, the Govt (ATF) makes some foolish and illegal procedural declarations.
In it you can save 200$ filing fee (or whatever you want to call it) .......... and for me since I foolishly fell for their lies and mistruths, saved money as well as I registered an HK SP5 but didn't need to install US parts.
Well I wanted to register it anyways, I'm on several lists already and the brace was cheesy, so why not?
Done and done.
Now it looks like it all has been overturned............. So I've been harmed how?

How have I "rolled over?"
By taking advantage of their own nonsense, I didn't help them in any way.
I didn't give them money.
I didn't, by getting an SBR registered, help them or their cause.
By registering an SBR that way, I didn't give up my right to object or somehow justify their point of view.
They didn't successfully fight off the injunctions by saying.......... "Wait, xxxx number of people registered under the program............"

So how have I "rolled over?"
Instead I played their game and won.

[DDT951]

Sir:
I'll be honest, I'm not sure I follow your point of view.............. I'm one of the "free SBR" idiots............

So yes, the Govt (ATF) makes some foolish and illegal procedural declarations.
In it you can save 200$ filing fee (or whatever you want to call it) .......... and for me since I foolishly fell for their lies and mistruths, saved money as well as I registered an HK SP5 but didn't need to install US parts.
Well I wanted to register it anyways, I'm on several lists already and the brace was cheesy, so why not?
Done and done.
Now it looks like it all has been overturned............. So I've been harmed how?

How have I "rolled over?"
By taking advantage of their own nonsense, I didn't help them in any way.
I didn't give them money.
I didn't, by getting an SBR registered, help them or their cause.
By registering an SBR that way, I didn't give up my right to object or somehow justify their point of view.
They didn't successfully fight off the injunctions by saying.......... "Wait, xxxx number of people registered under the program............"

So how have I "rolled over?"
Instead I played their game and won.

I agree.

I got something out of it. I had SBRs before this, now I just have more that were tax exempt.

Who rolled over.

[Great-Kazoo]

Sir:
I'll be honest, I'm not sure I follow your point of view.............. I'm one of the "free SBR" idiots............

So yes, the Govt (ATF) makes some foolish and illegal procedural declarations.
In it you can save 200$ filing fee (or whatever you want to call it) .......... and for me since I foolishly fell for their lies and mistruths, saved money as well as I registered an HK SP5 but didn't need to install US parts.
Well I wanted to register it anyways, I'm on several lists already and the brace was cheesy, so why not?
Done and done.
Now it looks like it all has been overturned............. So I've been harmed how?

How have I "rolled over?"
By taking advantage of their own nonsense, I didn't help them in any way.
I didn't give them money.
I didn't, by getting an SBR registered, help them or their cause.
By registering an SBR that way, I didn't give up my right to object or somehow justify their point of view.
They didn't successfully fight off the injunctions by saying.......... "Wait, xxxx number of people registered under the program............"

So how have I "rolled over?"
Instead I played their game and won.



Call you what you want. I have no issue with those who chose to do so. My issue is a legal item, including all the ATF compliance letters mfg'ers received. Became illegal (by atf definition) overnight, based on the whims of some bureaucrat, to score brownie points with the current administration. Trump was no better regarding the bumpstock.

I saw no reason to comply, since i had no "braced" firearms. Being top heavy with tax stamps for the better part of 25 yrs, there was no need or desire to acquire one.

If it made you and others happy, great.

A few others and I on the forum know Nothing is Free. Especially if it's from the .gov, of all places.

[DDT951]

Few, if any people who took advantage of the free amnesty registration had any intention of SBR'ing their AR pistol before ATF arbitrarily outlawed braces to fabricate felons.

If you're unarmed, you are a victim.

Sometimes, when opportunity knocks, one must take it.

Maybe go to the way back time machine.

Remember the olden days when braces were in their infancy? https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/foia/impact-laws-footnote-13-2015-atf-open-letter/download or this https://vpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/sig-sauer-ATF-Approval-Letter-Adjustable-Pistol-Brace-2015.pdf They were a toy that was mostly ignored.

Here was ATF determination and why they were novelty much like bump stocks.

The pistol stabilizing brace was neither “designed” nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock,
and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a “redesign” of the device because a possessor
has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary
to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked.

The Sig Brace Letter said clearly "NOT used as shoulder stock"

Then came the https://vpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Pistol-brace-ATF-letter-March-21-2017.pdf

Everyone in 2017 read the new ruling that incidental, sporadic, or situational misuse (that is what the 2017 letter was addressing) did constitute a redesign and they reverse the interpretations that they had the previous 5 years.

Everyone then saw a way to have an "almost SBR" without all the hassles.

So I would agree, most bought braced pistols with the intent of having a what was similar to an SBR without paperwork.

But they ATF has changed their collective minds over the last 10 years if pistol braces are SBR or not when the pistol (or it is a rifle) when shouldered.

I think if we are intellectually honest, pistol braces were used after the 2017 letter as a method to have an "almost SBR". Everyone on you tub showing shouldering the pistols with braces didnt help the cause.

[DDT951]

Call you what you want. I have no issue with those who chose to do so. My issue is a legal item, including all the ATF compliance letters mfg'ers received. Became illegal (by atf definition) overnight, based on the whims of some bureaucrat, to score brownie points with the current administration. Trump was no better regarding the bumpstock.

I saw no reason to comply, since i had no "braced" firearms. Being top heavy with tax stamps for the better part of 25 yrs, there was no need or desire to acquire one.

If it made you and others happy, great.

A few others and I on the forum know Nothing is Free. Especially if it's from the .gov, of all places.

They are not always "legal" in how they were used. Unit 2017 there was "no shouldering".

But with regards to .gov... not even death is free....

[Oscar77]

Call you what you want. I have no issue with those who chose to do so. My issue is a legal item, including all the ATF compliance letters mfg'ers received. Became illegal (by atf definition) overnight, based on the whims of some bureaucrat, to score brownie points with the current administration. Trump was no better regarding the bumpstock.

I saw no reason to comply, since i had no "braced" firearms. Being top heavy with tax stamps for the better part of 25 yrs, there was no need or desire to acquire one.

If it made you and others happy, great.

A few others and I on the forum know Nothing is Free. Especially if it's from the .gov, of all places.

Sir:
And you are right............ there have been alot of laws or in this case actions by the ATF that I (and since you want to make this a "group" argument) and "we" do not agree with.
Many are truly illegal or atleast without any sort of legal merit.

And "WE" can all agree with that but then maybe I'm not part of the secret society of this forum that you are.

Likewise "WE" can all agree that "nothing is free" but what does that have to do with the question at hand............. How have "WE" the stupid morons, who took advantage of a free tax stamp, helped the Govt in anyway?

"WE" would like to know.................. or is that information for just "you and a few others" on this forum?

In the mean time......... maybe I misunderstood your comments, so please just answer the question................ "How have "WE" the stupid morons, who took advantage of a free tax stamp, helped the Govt in anyway?"

[Great-Kazoo]

Sir:
And you are right............ there have been alot of laws or in this case actions by the ATF that I (and since you want to make this a "group" argument) and "we" do not agree with.
Many are truly illegal or atleast without any sort of legal merit.

And "WE" can all agree with that but then maybe I'm not part of the secret society of this forum that you are.

Likewise "WE" can all agree that "nothing is free" but what does that have to do with the question at hand............. How have "WE" the stupid morons, who took advantage of a free tax stamp, helped the Govt in anyway?

"WE" would like to know.................. or is that information for just "you and a few others" on this forum?

In the mean time......... maybe I misunderstood your comments, so please just answer the question................ "How have "WE" the stupid morons, who took advantage of a free tax stamp, helped the Govt in anyway?"

The only one calling anyone who took advantage of the free stamp "stupid morons" is you. Either that or your reading comprehension is lacking. There is no secret society on this forum, so get over the butthurt on that one.

As for helping the government. With the mentality of said agencies. All one needs to is say to their supervisor is. Hey, look at X who took advantage of the amnesty program. If they own the brace, what other "questionable" gun parts do we think they have? You handed them a list of names, guns and serial #'s on a platter. Until a crime is committed with a firearm, that info stays with the ffl. At least in some states, others plaster their names in the local paper.

Call it tinfoil or whatever one wants. The gov has never been satisfied with compliance, till it's compliance on their terms.

Biggest example is R.I.C.O. originally enacted as a "tool" against 1% - AKA as outlaw MC gangs. Some said if passed will be abused. OH NO NEVER was the reply. within 5 yrs of passing KoC card games were raided using RICO as the means to arrest and confiscate. As were many other org's with confiscation of $$ and property the end game.

Again, I have no issue with what you or others did. I personally, if owning a brace, would not have done anything. Let's see how it plays out the next 2-5 yrs, depending on if there's a regime change after the 24 elections. As well as what SCOTUS rules down the road.

[MED]

Sir:
I'll be honest, I'm not sure I follow your point of view.............. I'm one of the "free SBR" idiots............

So yes, the Govt (ATF) makes some foolish and illegal procedural declarations.
In it you can save 200$ filing fee (or whatever you want to call it) .......... and for me since I foolishly fell for their lies and mistruths, saved money as well as I registered an HK SP5 but didn't need to install US parts.
Well I wanted to register it anyways, I'm on several lists already and the brace was cheesy, so why not?
Done and done.
Now it looks like it all has been overturned............. So I've been harmed how?

How have I "rolled over?"
By taking advantage of their own nonsense, I didn't help them in any way.
I didn't give them money.
I didn't, by getting an SBR registered, help them or their cause.
By registering an SBR that way, I didn't give up my right to object or somehow justify their point of view.
They didn't successfully fight off the injunctions by saying.......... "Wait, xxxx number of people registered under the program............"

So how have I "rolled over?"
Instead I played their game and won.

I did the exact same thing you did with one I intended to SBR anyway. That said, I'm glad the courts are calling it what it is. The NFA should've been challenged long ago, which is another topic of conversation.

[ray1970]

There is no secret society on this forum.

And if there was, unless you were a part of it, would you even know?

I mean the word secret is key with these kinds of things.

[DDT951]

And if there was, unless you were a part of it, would you even know?

I mean the word secret is key with these kinds of things.

But the only way three people can keep a secret is if 2 are dead...

So, by defintion, the secret society is only one person... well there were 3, until 2 died...

[ray1970]

But the only way three people can keep a secret is if 2 are dead...

So, by defintion, the secret society is only one person... well there were 3, until 2 died...

Hmm.

So ultimately every secret society is just one lonely guy sitting naked in a beanbag covered in baby oil and eating cheetos?

[DDT951]

Hmm.

So ultimately every secret society is just one lonely guy sitting naked in a beanbag covered in baby oil and eating cheetos?

Has to be. Otherwise it is not secret.

[Great-Kazoo]

Hmm.

So ultimately every secret society is just one lonely guy sitting naked in a beanbag covered in baby oil and eating cheetos?

You upgraded to baby oil? Thought you were "roughing it, having a hard time explaining to the wife.. No really honey it's a food allergy :)

[hollohas]

I filed for 2 tax-free SBR's. And I've felt dirty ever since. I FULLY expect Uncle Sam will come knocking one day and demand I forfeit them or go to jail. But I'll have fun with them in the meantime. But not in other states, because that seems like a PITA.

[theGinsue]

There is no secret society on this forum,.

Uh, <looking both ways out of the corners of my eyes>, nope.




And if there was, unless you were a part of it, would you even know?

I mean the word secret is key with these kinds of things.

For heaven sakes man, don't let them see your Skull & Bones ring or the jig'll be up. Geesh.




Hmm.

So ultimately every secret society is just one lonely guy sitting naked in a beanbag covered in baby oil and eating cheetos?

Ohhhhh, so it's always about you then in'it? [ROFL1]



That's all I've got. I don't have a direct dog in this fight as I never really cared for the whole "AR pistol" thing, but I'll say that the free tax stamp program felt dirty & like we were waiting for the other show to drop from the get-go to me, even if I could never say exactly why. Still pissed the Executive Department gets away with legislating. And this CO mandatory serialization via FFL thing, requiring a background check (de facto registration), goes 100% against precisely why folks made their own firearms to begin with.

[Great-Kazoo]

Uh, <looking both ways out of the corners of my eyes>, nope.





For heaven sakes man, don't let them see your Skull & Bones ring or the jig'll be up. Geesh.





Ohhhhh, And this CO mandatory serialization via FFL thing, requiring a background check (de facto registration), goes 100% against precisely why folks made their own firearms to begin with.

and they loaded up the truck and moved to Arizona... Hills that is. desert cactus, moving targets, no bgc with CWP, ftf sales even at gun shows.....

[Hoser]

Hmm.

So ultimately every secret society is just one lonely guy sitting naked in a beanbag covered in baby oil and eating cheetos?
Thats hot

[brutal]

Thats hot

I thought it was just me.