Liberty Safes give feds access

[RblDiver]

So, turns out Liberty Safes have backdoors (unknown right now whether it's a master password or unique to each safe) to get into safes, ignoring the owner's actual combinations. They turned them over to the FBI when they were searching a J6 individual's house.

https://bearingarms.com/ranjit-singh/2023/09/06/is-liberty-safe-with-liberty-safe-n74510

Guess I'll never get any of their products. Their Twitter account has been blowing up (they restricted replies to their latest post, but others are getting the Bud Light treatment).
https://twitter.com/libertysafeinc/status/1699245595867971969

(And people have pointed out that LS tell you to contact a locksmith if you're locked out, and to have the locksmith contact them...but apparently the customer can't get their own master password?)

[beast556]

Not surprised.

[Martinjmpr]

Wait, aren't the locks actually made by Sargent? We have a Liberty safe and the original (electronic) lock was a Sargent lock.

IIRC even the mechanical locks are made by another company (maybe Sargent again?)

[Brass]

Next upgrade from Liberty Safe: Three day waiting period if you want to access your guns if you're not a .gov employee.

[Ah Pook]

That is scary and sad at the same time. It’s called a “safe” for a reason.

[KevDen2005]

This is sad. I was considering a Liberty for my next safe

[eddiememphis]

If presented with a search warrant, aren't they legally obligated to give the requested information?

I seem to recall that is one reason Apple made Iphones "unhackable"- so they didn't have to deal with these situations.

[mb504]

Wait, aren't the locks actually made by Sargent? We have a Liberty safe and the original (electronic) lock was a Sargent lock.

IIRC even the mechanical locks are made by another company (maybe Sargent again?)

Sargent does make both types (plus a few others).

[RblDiver]

If presented with a search warrant, aren't they legally obligated to give the requested information?

I seem to recall that is one reason Apple made Iphones "unhackable"- so they didn't have to deal with these situations.

They weren't even actually presented with the search warrant, just told one existed for the house. Second, that's pretty much the crux of the problem, why have a backdoor in the first place? Means a safe....isn't.

[rondog]

I need a safe badly, and I'll still get a Liberty. Locks can be changed. I won't have an electronic one anyway.

[OctopusHighball]

An obvious issue with an electronic lock. There simply is no way to verify any potential backdoors. Even if you buy a new lock from Sargent and Greenleaf, they may have their own backdoor.

Mechanical lock will have no such bypass, as one could physically see the combination wheels.

The sheetmetal safe itself, however, is very susceptible to an angle grinder.

[kidicarus13]

I see this issue as pretty irrelevant. If a judge signs a warrant that includes the contents of your safe, the authorities will get in your safe with or without the combination (electronic or dial). If you are present when the warrant is served, you will be asked for the combo. If you do not oblige, the local fire department will get to practice with some of their cool tools, your safe will get destroyed, and you will not get reimbursed.

[Scanker19]

Until they find it’s empty…

[RblDiver]

Well, that didn't take long! No apology, BUT they are going to allow people to have their master key records deleted, and they'll require law enforcement to issue an actual subpoena. https://twitter.com/libertysafeinc/status/1699606598669459680

[theGinsue]

Well, that didn't take long! No apology, BUT they are going to allow people NEW CUSTOMERS to have their master key records deleted, and they'll require law enforcement to issue an actual subpoena. https://twitter.com/libertysafeinc/status/1699606598669459680

FIFY - based on the contents of their press release

[Scanker19]

That does, in fact, imply they were giving them out without a subpoena. If anyone thinks this is the first time, I have a bridge I’ll post in the trading post shortly.

[OctopusHighball]

FIFY - based on the contents of their press release

Unless they clarified the press release since your post, it does say for both new and existing customers on page two. In fact, existing customers can request the codes be deleted immediately, but new customers will have that capability in the coming weeks.

[O2HeN2]

Deviant Ollam on the Liberty Safe fiasco. ...and he recommends mechanical locks, BTW :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gesfh39-xlo

O2

[Brass]

At this point, why would anyone assume that Liberty Safe actually deletes your back door if you tell them to do so?

[Great-Kazoo]

That does, in fact, imply they were giving them out without a subpoena. If anyone thinks this is the first time, I have a bridge I’ll post in the trading post shortly.

Pictures and will you ship?

[BladesNBarrels]

Pictures and will you ship?

Why not?
The London Bridge went to Lake Havasu, AZ.
You Arizonians really like bridges.

[Coffee]

[GeorgeandSugar]

I won?t be buying anything from Liberty Safe. Take a look who they donate to. A bunch of gun grabbers. All Democrats per Charlie Kirk. What is left out in the reporting is what was it the FBI was looking for as it pertains to J6?

President Biden has classified documents stored in a garage and a few other places and yet did the FBI get a warranty and raid his homes etc?? Nope.

https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1699612950196330924?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1699612950196330924%7Ctwgr% 5E06c648d4ff88a8d4a997cdbc5a1dd1e32af32354%7Ctwcon %5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bizpacreview.com%2F2023% 2F09%2F07%2Fquestions-arise-when-liberty-gun-safe-takes-center-stage-in-fbi-j6-raid-and-the-answer-is-not-good-1393844%2F


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[opie011]

There's no "Master Code" or "Back Door" to these locks. Liberty just like every other manufacturer buy locks by the thousands and they're usually a cheap 2 user lock. These locks have a master code that is default but changed by the manufacturer and then recorded with the safes serial number. The 2nd code is the "user code" typically 1-2-3-4-5-6 and the end user gets to change it.

[kidicarus13]

Thanks for chiming in and clearing that up our previous Colorado resident safe expert.

[buffalobo]

Opie, what Kid said, cool to see you checking in and keeping us straight.

If you're unarmed, you are a victim.

[BPTactical]

Funny how Liberty rolled over for the fed but super liberal Apple tells the fed to fuck off as it pertains to their accessing products.

[KevDen2005]

There's no "Master Code" or "Back Door" to these locks. Liberty just like every other manufacturer buy locks by the thousands and they're usually a cheap 2 user lock. These locks have a master code that is default but changed by the manufacturer and then recorded with the safes serial number. The 2nd code is the "user code" typically 1-2-3-4-5-6 and the end user gets to change it.

Is this also applicable to manual dials (not electronic)?

[O2HeN2]

There's no "Master Code" or "Back Door" to these locks. Liberty just like every other manufacturer buy locks by the thousands and they're usually a cheap 2 user lock. These locks have a master code that is default but changed by the manufacturer and then recorded with the safes serial number. The 2nd code is the "user code" typically 1-2-3-4-5-6 and the end user gets to change it.

I'm going to disagree with the terminology, not the data you present.

Yhea, there is no "master code" that unlocks all safes, that would be incredibly stupid since after one leak it's all over for the company (or more importantly, their customers).

But having a unique combination tied to the serial number that the user is uninformed of, or poorly informed of IS a "back door" - it's a way in that the user is unaware of - the very definition of "back door".

O2

[O2HeN2]

Is this also applicable to manual dials (not electronic)?

Though it's possible for a dial combination lock have more than one combination, mechanics pretty much dictates only one. Even if you double-notched the wheels (which would give you all sorts of permutations that would work, not just two) the "back door" would change if you changed your primary combination.

So, a standard dial combination lock has only two combinations.

Yes, two. At least for many combination locks, it's just something inherent in the mechanics of the lock.

There's a combination for the normal forward direction and one for the reverse direction. Good news is that they both change if you change the combination, so no back door. Easiest way to figure out the reverse direction is to take the rear plate off a dial lock and line up the notches when starting the dial in the "wrong" direction.

O2

PS: If you have an S&G dial combination lock and want to change its combination, see this thread: https://www.ar-15.co/threads/191492-S-amp-G-dial-combination-change-key-available-for-loan-in-CS

[KevDen2005]

Though it's possible for a dial combination lock have more than one combination, mechanics pretty much dictates only one. Even if you double-notched the wheels (which would give you all sorts of permutations that would work, not just two) the "back door" would change if you changed your primary combination.

So, a standard dial combination lock has only two combinations.

Yes, two. At least for many combination locks, it's just something inherent in the mechanics of the lock.

There's a combination for the normal forward direction and one for the reverse direction. Good news is that they both change if you change the combination, so no back door. Easiest way to figure out the reverse direction is to take the rear plate off a dial lock and line up the notches when starting the dial in the "wrong" direction.

O2

PS: If you have an S&G dial combination lock and want to change its combination, see this thread: https://www.ar-15.co/threads/191492-S-amp-G-dial-combination-change-key-available-for-loan-in-CS

Interesting. I was always under the assumption that the dial lock could not be changed. I always wanted a different combination other than the one sent from the factory.

[O2HeN2]

Interesting. I was always under the assumption that the dial lock could not be changed. I always wanted a different combination other than the one sent from the factory.

Does the ring around your dial have a white line at about the 11:00 position? If so, that's indicative of an S&G lock that can have the combination changed.

O2

[Erni]

Liberty safes: hold my bud light!!

[Scanker19]

Dumb question, if someone had a liberty safe, and wanted to change the lock from a stupid electronic one to say an S&g, are the holes and cechanisms ?universal.? How would one know if if X lock would fit Y safe?
Asking for three friends..

[electronman1729]

What does this mean for storing NFA items?

[O2HeN2]

What does this mean for storing NFA items?

I think it means that others have access to your NFA items.

O2

[BushMasterBoy]

So your best safes are the old antique ones with 3 inch thick steel walls ?

[opie011]

Does the ring around your dial have a white line at about the 11:00 position? If so, that's indicative of an S&G lock that can have the combination changed.

O2
That's not indicative to S&G...most if not all modern mechanical locks have a change index line. What differs is the key used to insert in the back of the lock to change the combo.

Dumb question, if someone had a liberty safe, and wanted to change the lock from a stupid electronic one to say an S&g, are the holes and cechanisms ?universal.? How would one know if if X lock would fit Y safe?
Asking for three friends..
As long as the keypad is directly in front of the lock body, no issues changing from electronic to mechanical. Both types of locks share the same footprint, doesn't matter on the manufacturer as well. Also, if you were to buy new electronic lock from a locksmith, you would have the option to change the default "master code" and store that as your backup combo or "backdoor" if you will.

Obviously I'm not local anymore but, I would be happy to get you and your friends new locks....just won't be able to install them for you.

[Singlestack]

Funny how Liberty rolled over for the fed but super liberal Apple tells the fed to fuck off as it pertains to their accessing products.

Well, Apple SAID they didn't comply....

[Fentonite]

That's not indicative to S&G...most if not all modern mechanical locks have a change index line. What differs is the key used to insert in the back of the lock to change the combo.

As long as the keypad is directly in front of the lock body, no issues changing from electronic to mechanical. Both types of locks share the same footprint, doesn't matter on the manufacturer as well. Also, if you were to buy new electronic lock from a locksmith, you would have the option to change the default "master code" and store that as your backup combo or "backdoor" if you will.

Obviously I'm not local anymore but, I would be happy to get you and your friends new locks....just won't be able to install them for you.

Eric! Great to see you posting!

[O2HeN2]

We're still having problems with the definition of "backdoor". Sorry to harp on this, but words have meanings.

NIST's appears to have a good, succinct definition, though computer specific:

Backdoor: "An undocumented way of gaining access to a computer system. A backdoor is a potential security risk."

So if you program your own combination and a backup combination, the backup combination is not a backdoor, because you know about it.

If the manufacturer (or anyone else, for that matter) has a backup combination and tells you that they have one, it's not a backdoor since you know about it (even if you don't know what the backup combination is - you're aware that exists and its security implications).

If the manufacturer has a backup combination and DOESN'T tell you that they have one, it's a backdoor since you DON'T know about it and the security risk it entails.

That last one is the Liberty Safe "backdoor". Mostly because either the functionality isn't it clearly stated in the Liberty documents or wasn't stated at all. The real origin is Sargent and Greenleaf's backup combination, which by my understanding IS in the S&G lock documentation. But because that knowledge [the existence of a backup combination] isn't passed onto the customer the BACKUP becomes a BACKDOOR to the customer's safe.

What this all boils down to: Get a freak'n mechanical lock since you have NO idea what's coded in an electronic lock. A mechanical lock you can look at and know it's secure.

O2

https://csrc.nist.gov/glossary/term/backdoor

[O2HeN2]

Another post by Deviant Ollam on the Liberty Safe fiasco.

Has some interesting information on dial lock models and an safe dialers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5CzzgTEEnA

[opie011]

We're still having problems with the definition of "backdoor". Sorry to harp on this, but words have meanings.

NIST's appears to have a good, succinct definition, though computer specific:

Backdoor: "An undocumented way of gaining access to a computer system. A backdoor is a potential security risk."

So if you program your own combination and a backup combination, the backup combination is not a backdoor, because you know about it.

If the manufacturer (or anyone else, for that matter) has a backup combination and tells you that they have one, it's not a backdoor since you know about it (even if you don't know what the backup combination is - you're aware that exists and its security implications).

If the manufacturer has a backup combination and DOESN'T tell you that they have one, it's a backdoor since you DON'T know about it and the security risk it entails.

That last one is the Liberty Safe "backdoor". Mostly because either the functionality isn't it clearly stated in the Liberty documents or wasn't stated at all. The real origin is Sargent and Greenleaf's backup combination, which by my understanding IS in the S&G lock documentation. But because that knowledge [the existence of a backup combination] isn't passed onto the customer the BACKUP becomes a BACKDOOR to the customer's safe.

What this all boils down to: Get a freak'n mechanical lock since you have NO idea what's coded in an electronic lock. A mechanical lock you can look at and know it's secure.

O2

https://csrc.nist.gov/glossary/term/backdoor

I'm not sure why you seem to be fixated on the whole "backdoor" term but, thank you for clearing that up!

Anyways, what it boils down to: Get a good lock that you can afford and don't do CRIMINAL SHIT! Oh and any RSC from the big box stores can and will be easily defeated so either buy a real safe like a TL rated safe or build a vault if you're so paranoid about the feds breaking into your shit.

Well 'nuff said from me...think I'll go smoke a Cohiba Yellow and enjoy freedom.

[00tec]

I'm not sure why you seem to be fixated on the whole "backdoor" term but, thank you for clearing that up!

Anyways, what it boils down to: Get a good lock that you can afford and don't do CRIMINAL SHIT! Oh and any RSC from the big box stores can and will be easily defeated so either buy a real safe like a TL rated safe or build a vault if you're so paranoid about the feds breaking into your shit.

Well 'nuff said from me...think I'll go smoke a Cohiba Yellow and enjoy freedom.

So what you're saying is, screw a 1/4", 5" round plate of AR500 right behind the lock, right?

You can still cut them open with a angle grinder and a hose, lol

[hollohas]

It's not about worrying the feds will break into our shit or doing criminal things. It's simply about principle.

Feds: Liberty, can you give us access to Liberty safes that are owned by citizens?

Liberty: Nope, if you have a warrant, you'll need to call a locksmith to gain access, sorry.

^That's how it should be.

[KevDen2005]

So do you think Liberty will run huge sales the way Bud Light did?

[Great-Kazoo]

So do you think Liberty will run huge sales the way Bud Light did?

Funny you should ask.

94697

[hollohas]

I won't even drink free bud. But I'd take a free Liberty safe if it comes down to it.

[Gunner]

I won't even drink free bud. But I'd take a free Liberty safe if it comes down to it.

Same here?


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