View Full Version : Morality Question: Am I being an ass?
So I belong to another forum/chat room.
Guy posts about a deal on some primers.
People start buying them and realize that the company doesn't appear to be charging hazmat....... either by mistake or maybe they are eating the charge.
But either way the orders are shipping and arriving to the buyers.
Well another member calls them about it, they realize/admit their mistake and pull the offering. They are now out-of-stock.
I felt like telling the guy, politely, that it wasn't his business to call them and ask about their lack of hazmat fees.............
Am I being an ass?
I'm letting it go...........but still...........
Would you have said something?
buffalobo
09-07-2023, 20:16
After I got my order, maybe.
If you're unarmed, you are a victim.
I would have called them. 100%.
As a business owner, I’d want someone to tell me I’m screwing up. The actual risk (of primers igniting and causing a problem) is low, but the liability associated with making that kind of mistake and being penalized by the law is, I would guess, high. God save you if there was a real problem in shipping and someone got hurt.
I care more about the person/business than I do about saving $25 on my order. Call it Karma or The Golden Rule or whatever you want, it’s my experience that doing the right thing is always the right thing.
Anti-gun politicians, government officials and the media are all looking for anything to use against gun related individuals and businesses. We all need to be aware of what we are doing. I'm not saying we should cower in fear though.
Sounds like the same guy that would write letters to the ATF to get clarifications about poorly worded ?laws?.
eddiememphis
09-08-2023, 19:41
A person who knows the difference between right and wrong and chooses right is moral. A person whose morality is reflected in his willingness to do the right thing – even if it is hard or dangerous – is ethical. Ethics are moral values in action.
Interesting...
Do you take financial advantage of a vendors screwup to save a few bucks?
Do you alert the vendor to his error?
I think both the moral and ethical thing to do is to alert the vendor of his error.
I agree with Tim K. If a business owner errs on the billing, regardless of the direction, let him know.
Tim builds cabinets. If he charged $700 for a $7000 job, would you tell him his decimal is in the wrong spot? Or would you jump on it, hoping you got the deal of the century?
I guarantee it the decimal is in the other direction- $7000 vs $70,000, you'd make some noise.
eddiememphis
09-08-2023, 19:44
Another point
Who is legally responsible if primers ignite in a delivery vehicle?
Provided the primers are correctly packaged. What does a $49 hazmat fee buy?
I have handed back wrong [excess] change many times more than I've been shorted.
Do the right thing. Always.
O2
funkymonkey1111
09-09-2023, 10:12
Yes, you're the ass. In your weakness you knew it, but you wanted someone to chime in and give you an out.
So I went to Walmart to return something that was about $30ish. I gave customer service the receipt, and the item was not on there so my only conclusion was that it didn't scan. Anyhow, they were going to refund me without a receipt. I said no I need to return it without payment. They brought in a manager who looked at me in total bewilderment when I said that I can't prove to myself that I paid for it so I have to return it without payment. They finally took the item and thanked me for being honest. The comment up a few posts about doing wrong when you know it's wrong is definitely a problem. Just do the right thing; you'll feel better about yourself.
I don't think you're being an ass, because I don't read where you actually DID anything, you just "felt" like saying something.
I don't think you're being an ass, because I don't read where you actually DID anything, you just "felt" like saying something.
No I didn't do anything.......... so I guess this a theoretical moral question..............
But there was a part of me that said to myself: "Why start pointing out their mistake? Noone, lost out.......... It was just extra shipping charges that the buyers saved. So mind your own bees wax."
So I was curious to see if any one else felt that way.............. and no. :)
Many years ago a friend who hadn't been out of the U.S. since his stint in Vietnam asked if he could join me on a trip I was taking to Latin America. I figured there was no harm so I told him he was welcome to come along. As luck would have it, we had to change the date of our return flights. The agent at the checkin desk for the return flight changed our tickets and as we were just about to walk away from the desk, my friend asked the American Airlines agent (who was already mid way into handing us our boarding passes) "but you forgot the change fee".
Thank goodness he was of high moral character as I'd have strangled him otherwise.
From what I understand the fees are to cover the licensing that is subjected to the business in order to ship hazmat
The shipping companies don’t charge per delivery. They just won’t let you ship it unless you have the appropriate licensing to do so.
The seller can choose to pass on the costs or choose not to
Depends. If it was Walmart or Amazon hypothetically selling primers, then I'd secretly hope they could be bankrupted by it. Any business that doesnt have billions upon billions in revenue, absolutely notify the owners. Your deal comes at the expense of an actual person. I wont say it is theft, but it is immoral.
PS: I have $80 Kendra tires from a walmart pricing error. Thank you BP? I think thay was you. Yet I even returned CASH dropped onto the ground to customer service (who I know 99% pocketed it). Lead children by example. But nobody gets Karma points for returning mistakes to e.g. the IRS. That is roughly where the majority probably draws this moore.
Another example: gas station puts the decimal in the wrong stop. Tons of dicks line up to get 90% discounted gas, they self justify it as a deal. YET, compare to a different situation. A man has a hole in his pocket and a dollar bill falls out about once every fifteen seconds. Do you follow him around town, covertly picking each dollar up, and call it a "deal", and call your friends to follow him when you get tired? Similar circumstances. Those that fail this basic ethics test are often the shittiest candidates for friends.
PS...I have encountered this, and I did IMMEDIATLEY notify the station. It's been ~20 years ago. Utterly disgusting the lines of selfish opportunists. If they'll do it there, they'll 100% do it anywhere they think there.is no risk of consequences (and that is all that it boils down to... )
The opposite side of the argument (I am not taking a position either way) is that businesses theoretically run by professionals who [should] know what they are doing.
Sometimes (as in the gas example) businesses choose to have loss leaders to generate business. This happens at the “gas war” intersection of I25 and 119.
If professionals make errors, isn’t on them?
Another example. “Professional drivers” (e.g. CDL) are supposed to be “professionals” and held to a higher standard.
Once someone hangs a shingle out doing business, the laws do treat them different.
eddiememphis
09-17-2023, 08:24
If professionals make errors, isn’t on them?
Sure it is.
The original question is when recognizing that error, what is the morality of exploiting it for personal gain, before that professional realizes and corrects it.
theGinsue
09-17-2023, 11:04
Those Circle K/Kum & Go/7-11, etc typically aren't owned by the employees or even the station manager. Same thing at the grocery store and the online firearm/reloading parts providers. Many of those places will charge the employee for the error either in direct loss values or in fines. One persons mistake could be the difference in whether or not they've got enough money to pay their bills this month.
People make mistakes. The moral and just thing to do when we realize this is to let them know about it to give them a chance to correct the mistake. Taking advantage of those mistakes isn't the right thing to do, regardless of the advantage we may gain from it. I think one of he biggest problems in our world today is how every mistake is exploited for personal gain, with zero consideration for the one who made the mistake.
eddiememphis
09-17-2023, 16:40
...Taking advantage of those mistakes isn't the right thing to do...
If you know about it and take advantage of it, it is theft.
Another example: gas station puts the decimal in the wrong stop. Tons of dicks line up to get 90% discounted gas, they self justify it as a deal. YET, compare to a different situation. A man has a hole in his pocket and a dollar bill falls out about once every fifteen seconds. Do you follow him around town, covertly picking each dollar up, and call it a "deal", and call your friends to follow him when you get tired? Similar circumstances. Those that fail this basic ethics test are often the shittiest candidates for friends.
PS...I have encountered this, and I did IMMEDIATLEY notify the station. It's been ~20 years ago. Utterly disgusting the lines of selfish opportunists. If they'll do it there, they'll 100% do it anywhere they think there.is no risk of consequences (and that is all that it boils down to... )
But that isn't what happened here.................... People were buying primers and paying full price for them, along with regular shipping. But that is the issue here, Hazmat wasn't charged.
I'll say this again......
The company charged and got the full price they were asking for................ they didn't lose money that way.
They charged and got regular shipping............they didn't lose money that way.
The only question was that they didn't charge HAZMAT..............so the boxes got shipped "regular" and not "Hazmat."
Now, unless the guy who complained to them about this also called the "hazmat police" nothing happened on that end.
No planes crashed....... no arrests made.......... nothing.
What DID happen is the buyers saved the hazmat fees that they would've paid.
Ginsue:
Good points.............. well said.
Ok..........how about I give you another example of me being an ass or not?
So I go into a small gas station in the Mtns. While I'm filling up, I buy a few things.
The guy rings me up and asks if I want a bag.......... and at first I say no, but then realize I'll use it as a trash bag, so say yes.
By then it's rung up............ but as he is stuffing my crap in said bag....... I say, "give me a sec, I've got a dime in my center console."
(Of course referring to the CO State law about being charged a dime for the bag).
He says something "......Don't worry about it.....something something......the store is exempt from that."............ and hands me my bag.
I pause, decide he knows whats best for him and his store, and go on my merry way.
It sounds like I committed theft? Or should've placed the dime on the counter? Called the owner? Called the State?
buffalobo
09-17-2023, 20:04
And the question of morality was to whether or not saying something to the guy that notified the company of their deficiency was being an asshole, not whether notifing the company was moral.
If you're unarmed, you are a victim.
Great-Kazoo
09-17-2023, 20:14
Ok..........how about I give you another example of me being an ass or not?
So I go into a small gas station in the Mtns. While I'm filling up, I buy a few things.
The guy rings me up and asks if I want a bag.......... and at first I say no, but then realize I'll use it as a trash bag, so say yes.
By then it's rung up............ but as he is stuffing my crap in said bag....... I say, "give me a sec, I've got a dime in my center console."
(Of course referring to the CO State law about being charged a dime for the bag).
He says something "......Don't worry about it.....something something......the store is exempt from that."............ and hands me my bag.
I pause, decide he knows whats best for him and his store, and go on my merry way.
It sounds like I committed theft? Or should've placed the dime on the counter? Called the owner? Called the State?
MYOB and move on.
BPTactical
09-17-2023, 20:20
JFC
If you have to ask if your being an asshole then you likely already know the answer.
funkymonkey1111
09-17-2023, 21:30
Ok..........how about I give you another example of me being an ass or not?
So I go into a small gas station in the Mtns. While I'm filling up, I buy a few things.
The guy rings me up and asks if I want a bag.......... and at first I say no, but then realize I'll use it as a trash bag, so say yes.
By then it's rung up............ but as he is stuffing my crap in said bag....... I say, "give me a sec, I've got a dime in my center console."
(Of course referring to the CO State law about being charged a dime for the bag).
He says something "......Don't worry about it.....something something......the store is exempt from that."............ and hands me my bag.
I pause, decide he knows whats best for him and his store, and go on my merry way.
It sounds like I committed theft? Or should've placed the dime on the counter? Called the owner? Called the State?
that you brought up this moronic example cements your ass status
theGinsue
09-18-2023, 05:10
Gents, be nice!
I'm enjoying this question and the thread. It helps me stay grounded and has reminded me of the right way to act.
Great-Kazoo
09-18-2023, 21:10
Gents, be nice!
I'm enjoying this question and the thread. It helps me stay grounded and has reminded me of the right way to act.
Right. But if ten cents is going to have you questioning IF you did the right thing. I'm gonna say, Owning a firearm for personal protection is not something one should do.
Obvious sarcasm on the 10c bag thing folks.... Which I'm also sure everyone noticed, it's a bit over the top.
I guess I didn't realize it was shipping regular without the hazmat fee. Ignoring that, is not akin to theft. There's some mild perceivable elevated risk of 1 in 10,000,000 if the common carrier truck caught fire, but the same trucks also carry the hazmat. As long as they don't have any density greater than what they would have, there is little difference once it's sorted and out. The regulations just have it labeled, and packed in stronger cardboard and bagged. In a fire, that won't do a bit of difference. Now what DOES matter, is the hazmat stuff they track and avoid having too many on a single truck. That is where it could be catastrophic in an accident (such as the truck picking up from the store itself and unknowingly transporting 200k primers...). So... it's a different situation on ethics insofar as the hazmat. The former aspects are not really a safety concern. The latter really is - that 1 in 1,000,000 chance of having an accident coming from the store with 200k primers on it, may not justify the saving. It's not theft, it's a mild increase of death in a very select circumstance. Mostly, I'd say that is a wash and I'd say NTA except where there is the desire to reach out to someone who does notify the company.
Side story: I used to sell powder and primers on 'broker, years and years ago. I was hazmat certified, posted pictures of the hazmat boxes, labels, and overwrap on the listing, etc.
Still had at least one utter retard (random public) contact me and complain saying I shouldn't be selling anything because they claimed "I wasn't shipping hazmat". (not a customer, but I was the ONLY seller on Gunbroker that listed as hazmat shipping and provided all the proof that I did). Like... wtf do some people think hazmat shipping is? Space suits and an armed military convoy?
That said, the original question was regarding the person who notified the company / as to whether they should STFU ( to that extent, some level of "TA" status would likely be earned) .
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