View Full Version : Honest Inquiry about Glock design (NO FIGHTING)
I DO NOT WANT TO START A FIGHT! REPEAT: I DO NOT WANT TO START A FIGHT.
I've been looking around at different handguns etc and notice that a lot of them are starting to look like the Glock setup. Meaning that a lot are using polymers and plastic, etc. But on other forums and even occaionally here I hear a lot of Glock... bashing? Not sure if that is the right word I'm trying to convey. Anyways, if there is so much public contempt for glock and calling them "hand grenades" and stuff, why are other manufacturers using the basic design such a XD and a few others?
Please, just honest opinion/thought, no bashing, falming, fighting, being sarcastic, etc.
GreenScoutII
01-14-2010, 10:47
Ok, I'll play...
I think the Glock is a solid, reliable, well proven design. They are quite popular with law enforcement and the general public for good reason. They work and they don't break the bank.
That said, I personally don't care for them for two reasons.
1. I prefer a conventional exposed hammer, true single/double action design. Think Sig P220. This is just a preference on my part because I like the "feel" of the trigger better with this type of design. I have never shot a striker fired pistol, Glock or otherwise, where I liked the trigger. Tens of thousands of people do like the Glock design and shoot it well.
Again, this is not a knock on Glocks, just an expression of personal preference.
2. I don't care for the ergonomics of the Glock as defined as how it feels in my hand. It is a bit blocky for my taste, rather like gripping a short piece of 2x3 dimension lumber. Again, not a knock, just my preference.
There you go. If you like Glocks, they are an outstanding pistol with a proven track record. If you don't, there are many other choices which will serve you well.
Others are starting to look like Glock because the Glock has such huge marketshare. 58% in some areas, such as with law enforcement.
Glocks are reliable and inexpensive. Very few major flaws. All guns have problems, but the plastic grenade thing is really not justified. Are there better guns, yes. Are there better values, debateable.
And my off topic comments...
FWIW, Glock really did not invent anything. He just put it all together. Plastic? Think Remington Nylon 66, started in the late 50's. The safety trigger was used by Iver-Johnson roughly 100 years ago. Browning had hi-capacity mags in the mid 30's....so on and so on.
If you want an interesting read, search about the dark history of the company. You will be shocked to learn some of the nasty things that went on. Did you know that Gaston Glock's partner is in jail for attempted murder? He put a hit out on Gaston and was seconds away from being successful.
Oh, and I am a 1911 guy, with two Glocks!
newracer
01-14-2010, 11:23
Really it's a personal preference. I like Glocks and own 3 of them. I like the simplicity and reliability of them. They have the fewest parts of any handgun.
Ok, kewl, whew... it was kept civil. I love this board. So it really is just personal preference. There is nothing wrong with any major platform we find out there. Good to know.
The contempt you see for Glock isn't an actual back lash against the pistol, but the fan club of the pistol. Do a little browsing on AR15.com and you'll see that the Glock Kool-aid is strong over there. It would be a challenge for you to find a thread about a new gun some one bought that didn't have at least one comment along the lines of "That gun sucks, should have bought a Glock 19."
In every thread where people ask about which gun to purchase next, no matter what they are looking for, there will 10 responses of "GLOCK!"
It has come to the point that it is actually an inside joke on the board to just answer any gun related question with "Glock 19!" Similar to how on Honda-tech people would start a poll, and always include the option to vote on "smoke weed every day." I think on here for a while people even were giving "52" as an answer to random questions for a while (doesn't that come from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy though?).
So anyway, when you see people getting up in arms about Glocks, it's not because they are bad pistols, it's because people are tired of hearing how wonderful they are all the time. It's very similar to how republicans will make a huge deal out of every little thing the democratic party does, regardless if it merits any attention at all.
As far as Glocks blowing up goes; all guns blow up and that is a fact of life. The combination of Glocks dominating the market in many shooting sports, and fan boys constantly shouting the praises of Glock from their Church of Glock soapboxes, when a Glock does fail, you can bet that everyone is going to talk about it and everyone is going to hear about it.
In short, the worst thing about Glock pistols is some of their koolaid swilling owners.
You'll even see me making fun of Glocks, but not because I have any feelings toward them one way or another, just because it's the cool thing to do. Did I cover that pretty well guys?
SA Friday
01-14-2010, 14:02
Glocks are a love or hate weapon. It either fits or it doesn't. The grip to slide angle is 9 degrees wider than a 1911 grip. You either like this or hate this.
First Gen Glock 40 cal chambers were much larger than the current glock chamber. The generous chamber caused a lot of brass expansion and fired brass that looks like a guppie. It's pretty common to hear the terms guppie brass or glocked brass to describe brass that has been severly bulged out near the webbing on one side. Glock, over the years has tightened up their chambers, but they are still more loose than some others. Ironically a current 40 cal H&K chamber is more loose than the current Glock 40 cal chambers, but Glock got the rep and so a lot of people still say Glock 40's chambers are too big.
The Glock kaboom was and is a gun myth. Where is started, I don't know, but if a Glock kabooms dear god everyone on the planet gets told about it and how horrible Glocks are. Glocks have polygonal rifing, and when they first came out, nobody had any experience with it. More than a few learned the hard way that shitty lead bullets shot out of a glock can leave enough lead in the barrel to cause a kaboom. This is rare now a days as more than a couple gun makers use polygonal rifling in their pistols, but the learning curve was painful. I've seen my share of pistols kaboom. It's always been the ammo, reloaded double charges. The only odd kaboom I've seen was a glock 9mm and it was blowing the cases out at the webbing right at the feed ramp. It was bad Fed brass previously shot out of a MP5 and then reloaded with VV N310 powder. Essentially, reloader error and not the gun. Anyone that believes Glocks just arbritrarily blow up have no idea what they are talking about. The other thing that has happened over the years is a few LE agencies have blown up a couple of glocks and then sent out warning messages to all the LE agencies, because they didn't understand what happened. It was bullet set-back. LE agencies don't teach about this and some cops rechamber bullets multiple times. Set the bullet back, and kaboom. Had to be the gun right? (I did a whole write up about this, search for the thread if you want to understand bullet set-back.)
I've owned over half a dozen Glocks, and done some pretty radical work to more than a few of them and shot them competitively. They all ran like a raped apes and shot accurately out to 100 yds. Glocks are easy to shoot, easy to work on, parts are readily available, and are more reliable than any other manufacturer I've ever shot. It's rare to see a Glock puke in competition, and when it does it's always something the shooter did to the gun or their ammo that caused it. Glocks are the cockroaches of the pistol community; they are everywhere, ugly, and you can't kill one unless you blow it up and it might even survive that.
Short of STI, I cannot think of a single manufacturer that has won more national pistol shooting titles. Last year two pro shooters shooting Glocks, Bob Vogel and Dave Sevigny, duked it out in an amazing title battle for the Limited-10 National title that ended with Sevigny winning by less than one half a point. Rob Leatham came in 3 in that match by the way. Ya, two guys with Glocks spanked The Great One. Those two shooter also duked it out in the 2009 Production Division Nationals and Vogel beat Sevigny. Both were shooting G34's in the Production match. The 2009 Ladies Limited title went to a lady shooting a Glock 35. The Limited-10 National title went to a lady shooting a Glock 35.
So, if you don't like the grip angle go to a different gun. Just don't blame Glocks if you can't hit what you are shooting at, it isn't the Glock and more than likely your lack of practice. Blaming a gun for blowing up is like blaming a dog for bad behavior. It's almost always the owner's fault, and are too stupid or too embarrassed to admit it.
BigBear, asking the posters to not be sarcastic is like asking everyone on this site to hold their breath for a day. It just ain't gonna happen brother.
See Big Bear? Fryday said exactly what I said, only he used a thesaurus so I wouldn't give him a "D" for plagiarizing.
BigBear, asking the posters to not be sarcastic is like asking everyone on this site to hold their breath for a day. It just ain't gonna happen brother.
Roger that, it's understood, but at least by asking, people actually wrote thoughtful responses instead of just bashing it! lol. BTW, you mentioned that you did some work to your pistols... Would you mind letting me in on what you did or is that propietary information?! lol. Feel free to PM if needed for privacy.
HAHAHA Yes Stuart.
SA Friday
01-14-2010, 15:12
Roger that, it's understood, but at least by asking, people actually wrote thoughtful responses instead of just bashing it! lol. BTW, you mentioned that you did some work to your pistols... Would you mind letting me in on what you did or is that propietary information?! lol. Feel free to PM if needed for privacy.
HAHAHA Yes Stuart.
Sight changes, trigger jobs, tuning the gun to run specific types of ammo, couple of barrel changes... Stuff like that.
Sight changes, trigger jobs, tuning the gun to run specific types of ammo, couple of barrel changes... Stuff like that.
Tuning it to cycle sub sonic rounds with a can stuck on the end?
... will it not cycle subsonics with a can?....
Sight/barrel changes I know of. What is this trigger jobs (that ten cent thing on the web, does it really make a difference?) and tuning of the gun you speak? I am interested....
Well, most cans with the Nielsen device (or LCD or whatever) on them should cycle fine with sub sonics on a full size gun. Fryday has been in the game a lot longer than I have, so if he had some NFA stuff like 15 years ago, that might not have been the case.
I'll have to let Fryday answer the rest of that though, since I have no idea and it probably has to do with tuning a gun how he liked for comp shooting or something.
newracer
01-14-2010, 15:40
I have done the 25 cent trigger job on my glocks and yes it does make a difference. Also put in a differnet connector in two of mine.
SA Friday
01-14-2010, 15:43
I've never done it before, but I'm fairly confident it can be done as it's been done before.
I've played around a lot with 147gr bullets at about 885 fps which isn't enough juice to cycle an OEM glock 9mm. You have to down spring the entire gun to include the striker spring to get it to run, but when it's all said and done, it feels like you're shooting a 22mag pistol.
Tuning it to cycle sub sonic rounds with a can stuck on the end?
I have an AAC Evo on my G-17 and it runs just fine.
hmmm... I may have to try this 25 cent trigger job thing... I just shoot stuff stock (except one G19 that I have super modded, lol)... and my .308 now thanks to my lovely wifey
I did a DIY trigger job on my CZ and I could tell the difference afterward. I was nervous about it (I can be a homer sometimes) so I kept it real light. Nothing extreme but I can for sure tell the difference on it.
I did find this: http://www.alpharubicon.com/mrpoyz/glock/ but it completely dissasembles everything. I can feild strip but anything more and I don't trust myself. I am not mechanically inclined. I have problems putting the spark plugs back in at the right height!!! But I can change tires and oil and other little things! HAHA. Fine, take the damn man card, see if I care!!! I do.... so sad....
I'm exactly the same way and just found a step by step online for the CZ. At first it is intimidating, but once you learn how to get it apart, it's really no more difficult than a field strip. It's not like you're tearing into an automatic transmission without a manual or anything.
The important thing is to follow the directions about what to use to polish the desired parts and do it correctly. No dremel, make sure you keep a flat surface flat, stuff like that. The idea is more to polish up the surface, rather than remove material.
SA Friday
01-14-2010, 15:57
I've done lots of .25 cent trigger jobs, and taken them further. I gutted a G24 and totally redid the guts of the gun with aftermarket parts and some homemade stuff. It was very reliable and the best trigger I've ever had on a Glock. It still wasn't a 1911 trigger, but was really good and still reliable. Some of the trigger systems out there get right there on the edge of reliability and eventually puke on the shooter.
With a can on the end of the barrel, I would switch sights too. Dawson Precision makes an adjustable sight and very high front sight that should get you over the can. I've used them for competition quite a bit and like them.
My carry Glocks, I do a polish job on, round out the safety plunger, and leave stock striker and trigger springs in it with a 5lb disconnector in it. It's about 3.5 to 4 lbs when done. Competition Glock triggers are about 2 lbs when I'm done.
I may try this... Dear Lord.... lol. So what is the polish stuff used then? I can't read the label in the link I posted and he doesn't mention it anywhere else.
I think one is called Flitz. Otherwise, you can look up just a general metal polishing compound. They feel like that orange scrub soap that mechanics use to wash their hands, but much thicker consistency. If you purchase a metal polishing tool kit for a dremel, it comes with some generic stuff in there.
newracer
01-14-2010, 16:26
I used my dremel and the jewelers rouge that came with it, worked great.
SA Friday
01-14-2010, 16:58
Filtz or the stuff that comes with the drmel tool will work.
kidicarus13
01-14-2010, 17:21
Anyone know where I can buy Flitz locally?
SA Friday
01-14-2010, 17:26
hardware stores, wal-mart, any place that sells dremels should have either filtz or the dremel polishing compound.
kidicarus13
01-14-2010, 17:32
I tried Lowe's, Walmart, and Ace hardware with no luck. I'll keep looking.
pickenup
01-14-2010, 17:42
Other than what follows, I have no problem with them. It’s not that I do not like them, they just don’t fit “me”
As for being a polymer handgun, no problem there, as I shoot the original polymer handgun. ;)
I have owned a couple of models. I wanted to see what all the hype was about. Took the first one (M-30) to the range and, because of the angle of the grip, I found that it did NOT have a natural point of aim “for me.” Gun ran fine, no FTF, FTE, or any other problems.
Along with that, after a few mags, the “thingy” in the trigger made my finger sore. (they should make that safety like the XD does, where it conforms to the trigger when depressed) Took a different model, different time, same results.
Sure, I could “get used to it” I don’t want to. I want something I can draw, point and shoot. A Glock don’t fit the bill “for me.”
There are a number of people, that I shoot matches with, that use a Glock. Have not heard of those guys having any trouble with them. "They" shoot them rather well.
What is the "original polymer handgun" pickenup?
If the trigger made your finger sore, you need to get some calluses built up! Throw some hay for a summer, that ought to do it for ya girlyman! (I'm just messing with you friend.)
GreenScoutII
01-15-2010, 09:16
I tried Lowe's, Walmart, and Ace hardware with no luck. I'll keep looking.
Do you have a Big R store near you? The one down here carries it.
Nope, but I did find some at Home Depot.
What is the "original polymer handgun" pickenup?
HK P7?
pickenup
01-15-2010, 14:19
Almost Stuart, that was the next model.
What is the "original polymer handgun" pickenup?
Actually I misspoke, I should have said that I shoot a product "from the same manufacturer" as the original polymer handgun. Sad to say, I do not have a VP70.
From Wikipedia. (not that they are always the best resource, but in this instance....)
The VP70 is a 9 mm, 18-round, double action only, semi-automatic/three-round burst capable polymer frame pistol manufactured by German arms firm Heckler & Koch GmbH. VP stands for Vollautomatischepistole ("Fully automatic pistol"), and the designation 70 was for the year of the first edition: 1970.
It was the first polymer-framed pistol and predates the Glock 17
by 12 years.
The weapon weighed 820 g (28.9 oz) unloaded, lighter than most other metal framed pistols of the time. Although it was the first polymer pistol, the Remington Nylon 66 rifle was the first polymer-framed firearm in production.
If the trigger made your finger sore, you need to get some calluses built up! Throw some hay for a summer, that ought to do it for ya girlyman! (I'm just messing with you friend.)
LOL, I used to buck hay in my younger days. Even with THICK gloves on, that would no doubt cure the sore finger problem. But that still would not cure the fact that the gun doesn't shoot where I "naturally" point it, like an H&K or SIG does.
Last month I was messing around in the Gander Mountain up north and they had TWO H&K P7s in there. I was surprised as you hardly ever see them. Well, "hardly" is relative.
Troublco
01-27-2010, 20:46
Took me quite a while to develop a taste for Glocks. I shot a friend's G17, and didn't care for it. I went the XD route first, and still like them. Eventually after I decided I wanted a handgun for pig hunting, and I wanted something other than a revolver I decided upon a 10mm and after researching which platforms were available in 10mm and what you could get for them, the Glock 20 was the top choice. I like 1911's, always have, but 15 round magazines versus 8? No contest!
I set mine up with rubber decal grips, ghost ring night sights, a 3.5lb connector, extended slide release, a 6" Storm Lake barrel, and a Nowlin lanyard loop frame plug. I also put an Insight light on it, and I picked up a Mako scope mount and put a red dot on it (don't remember what kind) but it's only on it if I take it out hunting. I have heard a lot of folks say they don't like the 20/21 because the frame is so big, but it fits my hand perfectly.
Now, since I've gotten my 20, the same friend whose 17 I shot years ago picked one up in one of his deals where someone had stippled the frame in certain parts of the grip area. He handed it to me, and it was love at first grasp. I surprised the heck out of him, I tried everything I could think of to get him to sell it to me. And after deciding that my 20 is now my GP do it all handgun, I've come to the conclusion that it's time to pick up a 17 and do some work on it. And I have this sneaky suspicion that after that if I ever come across a G21 gen 2 or 3 for a really good deal it will probably wind up in the safe. I'm beginning to find Glocks are a lot like AR's. Lots of varieties out there, everybody makes everything for them, you can tweak the heck out of them, they run forever, and they're a lot of fun.
But I'm not getting rid of my XD 45.
SA Friday
01-27-2010, 20:53
Took me quite a while to develop a taste for Glocks. I shot a friend's G17, and didn't care for it. I went the XD route first, and still like them. Eventually after I decided I wanted a handgun for pig hunting, and I wanted something other than a revolver I decided upon a 10mm and after researching which platforms were available in 10mm and what you could get for them, the Glock 20 was the top choice. I like 1911's, always have, but 15 round magazines versus 8? No contest!
I set mine up with rubber decal grips, ghost ring night sights, a 3.5lb connector, extended slide release, a 6" Storm Lake barrel, and a Nowlin lanyard loop frame plug. I also put an Insight light on it, and I picked up a Mako scope mount and put a red dot on it (don't remember what kind) but it's only on it if I take it out hunting. I have heard a lot of folks say they don't like the 20/21 because the frame is so big, but it fits my hand perfectly.
Now, since I've gotten my 20, the same friend whose 17 I shot years ago picked one up in one of his deals where someone had stippled the frame in certain parts of the grip area. He handed it to me, and it was love at first grasp. I surprised the heck out of him, I tried everything I could think of to get him to sell it to me. And after deciding that my 20 is now my GP do it all handgun, I've come to the conclusion that it's time to pick up a 17 and do some work on it. And I have this sneaky suspicion that after that if I ever come across a G21 gen 2 or 3 for a really good deal it will probably wind up in the safe. I'm beginning to find Glocks are a lot like AR's. Lots of varieties out there, everybody makes everything for them, you can tweak the heck out of them, they run forever, and they're a lot of fun.
But I'm not getting rid of my XD 45.
When you get the itch to stipple a Glock grip let me know. I'll point you in the right direction for good details on how to do it and what to use. It's done a lot on USPSA guns. I haven't learned how to do it yet as I prefer Tru-grip adhesive grips on mine.
Troublco
01-27-2010, 21:04
When you get the itch to stipple a Glock grip let me know. I'll point you in the right direction for good details on how to do it and what to use. It's done a lot on USPSA guns. I haven't learned how to do it yet as I prefer Tru-grip adhesive grips on mine.
Thanks, I'll do that. I'd always liked the decalgrips, and have them on my XD and my G20. But on a Gen 2, that stippling is awesome. It looks like I'll be picking up a G17 here this weekend via a trade, and that's probably the first thing I'll do to it other than ordering more mags.
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