Thoughts on the this self-defense case?

[.455_Hunter]

25 year old armed black male is cut-off and assaulted by two younger hot-headed white brothers in a road rage incident. The black male shoots both, but does not immediately contact 911 while leaving the scene. The DA filed murder charges, but recently dropped them due to reasons listed in the article...

https://www.denver7.com/news/front-range/denver/denver-da-to-drop-remaining-charge-against-man-accused-of-fatally-shooting-brothers-on-i-25

Your thoughts on the entire case, including the initial incident and the legal wrangling since?

[BushMasterBoy]

Dashcam video would have been helpful. Sounds like they were looking for a fight.


97221

[CS1983]

Based on the info in the post and article, good shoot. But I wonder if the charges were dropped for more social Justice reasons than proper application of self defense law.

[.455_Hunter]

Dashcam video would have been helpful. Sounds like they were looking for a fight.


97221



Aww, come on man! They couldn't possibly be hot heads... [Sarcasm2]

[.455_Hunter]

Based on the info in the post and article, good shoot. But I wonder if the charges were dropped for more social Justice reasons than proper application of self defense law.


Flip the races and what happens? A large active smoke plume coming from downtown Denver with Tay Anderson at the source?

[CS1983]

Flip the races and what happens? A large active smoke plume coming from downtown Denver with Tay Anderson at the source?

Correct. But the law and self defense principles would dictate race isn’t a factor and the shoot is legally good. Hence, my second sentence in the quote.

[.455_Hunter]

But the law and self defense principles would dictate race isn?t a factor and the shoot is legally good.


Unfortunately, we all know that is not always the case, and it can be biased either way depending on the situation and location.

[Aloha_Shooter]

From what little I could get from the article, it sounds like a good shoot. The brothers FAFOed and got the Darwin Award. There doesn't seem to be any reason to assume the charges were dropped for social justice reasons, more likely the DA in question overcharged by jumping immediately to Murder 1. I don't know if there's a statute governing his failure to notify the police of the shooting but if there was anything to prosecute him for, it would be that, not murder. I expect he wanted to get away from the scene in case the brothers had backup coming -- he'd already been harassed as it was -- but he should still have reported it to the police once he got to a safe place.

[CS1983]

From what little I could get from the article, it sounds like a good shoot. The brothers FAFOed and got the Darwin Award. There doesn't seem to be any reason to assume the charges were dropped for social justice reasons, more likely the DA in question overcharged by jumping immediately to Murder 1. I don't know if there's a statute governing his failure to notify the police of the shooting but if there was anything to prosecute him for, it would be that, not murder. I expect he wanted to get away from the scene in case the brothers had backup coming -- he'd already been harassed as it was -- but he should still have reported it to the police once he got to a safe place.

This seems sensible. Though, I think I’d be having a self defense attorney presenting my story if I’d already left the scene.

US Law Shield recommends reporting to 911 you have been a victim of a crime and leave it at that until you have a lawyer present.

[BushMasterBoy]

Pic of the mom.

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[.455_Hunter]

97222


You sure that's not Jared Polis' sister?

[BushMasterBoy]

DEI can DIE

[TEAMRICO]

I have come to the conclusion that I don’t give any fucks anymore. I’m not wasting my time with the right or wrong of it. The clowns runs the show and get the outcome that is convenient for the agenda.
I have a life to live. Nothing benefits the common American Citizens anymore.

[Oscar77]

From what little I could get from the article, it sounds like a good shoot. The brothers FAFOed and got the Darwin Award. There doesn't seem to be any reason to assume the charges were dropped for social justice reasons, more likely the DA in question overcharged by jumping immediately to Murder 1. I don't know if there's a statute governing his failure to notify the police of the shooting but if there was anything to prosecute him for, it would be that, not murder. I expect he wanted to get away from the scene in case the brothers had backup coming -- he'd already been harassed as it was -- but he should still have reported it to the police once he got to a safe place.

I didn't follow this case closely.............. but there have been several, prior, news articles about the pressure on the DA to drop the remaining charge. Mass mailings etc, protests etc........... and yes, race was brought up.
If you google it, they should come up.

And if looked at objectively the question of leaving a scene of something like this is VERY MUCH a "two edged sword."
So I would consider carefully the "doors you are opening" in doing so............

PS:
Read the statement from the Denver Justice Project in the article:
"..........Unfortunately, the delayed injustice he has endured throughout his criminal proceedings has brought to light significant systemic inadequacies and racial disparities in the application of self-defense laws, particularly when Black men are forced to defend themselves against white aggressors. It is our hope that this dismissal not only rectifies the wrongs done to Stephan but also serves as a crucial step toward addressing these broader issues........"

[Scanker19]

Pic of the mom.

97222

Which one?

[BushMasterBoy]

One w/tats. The tree of the poisonous fruit...

[Scanker19]

Green hair, and NOT having tattoos are mutually exclusive.

[.455_Hunter]

One w/tats. The tree of the poisonous fruit...


Maybe things looked different 25 years ago, but not sure how Little Willie could be convinced to do his job.

[Ah Pook]

These pics look like stand-ins for Deliverance.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5014085024ac15b9a1c62f38/1481591293546-GB7RHFRDI3E709PE0WGZ/image-asset.png?format=1000w

[FoxtArt]

Not enough information. The article is presented as a "he said" of the survivors account, and appears to be somewhat influenced by "trial in the press".

Any witnesses? There should've been several. Any witness accounts, statements?

I don't judge photos. I have little doubt the incident originated in road rage. Lawful use of self defense would require that the victim (e.g. survivor here) did not partake in escalating the road rage, e.g. that it was not by consent. I don't run on an assumption that he did, or didn't. I just don't blindly trust a survivors statement alone as being historical facts, as there's never a survivor that will explain what they could've done better in the situation.

[BPTactical]

Pic of the mom.

97222

I assure you positive parenting and good choices were at work in this family unit.

Mensa will be holding a memorial service at the Lamplighter Mobile Home Park picnic/playground in their honor. Balloons with Dollar Tree gift cards will be released after hot dogs and hamburgers are served.

[kidicarus13]

Pic of the mom.

97222You mean dad.

[BladesNBarrels]

The Denver Post reported that a police officer in an unmarked car saw Long leave and pursued him and arrested him.
So, was the police officer not a witness?

Denver Post, August 21, 2024
Long, who is Black, is accused of shooting and killing both brothers, who were white, on the interstate near the intersections with Sixth and Eighth avenues. Witnesses told police that Long, who was driving a red Ford Taurus, was tailgating a silver sedan driven by the brothers, and that the sedan then cut off the Taurus, according to prior court testimony.

When traffic came to a standstill, Blake Lucas got out of the passenger side of the silver sedan and went up to Long, who was in the driver?s seat of the Taurus. Blake Lucas then started punching at Long through the window, according to testimony.

Long shot the man. As Blake Lucas retreated after being shot, his brother, Damon Lucas, rushed at the Taurus and started hanging on the driver?s side window as Long drove away, according to testimony.

Long then shot Damon Lucas as well. Both brothers died. Long did not stop at the scene or call 911, but a police officer who happened to be nearby in an unmarked car followed Long?s Taurus until Long stopped near the intersection of Meade Street and 13th Avenue. He was then arrested.

[Sawin]

Shoulda just put up the window and deescalated things... hopefully people learn something from these bad decisions.

[Little Dutch]

Not enough information. The article is presented as a "he said" of the survivors account, and appears to be somewhat influenced by "trial in the press".

Any witnesses? There should've been several. Any witness accounts, statements?

I don't judge photos. I have little doubt the incident originated in road rage. Lawful use of self defense would require that the victim (e.g. survivor here) did not partake in escalating the road rage, e.g. that it was not by consent. I don't run on an assumption that he did, or didn't. I just don't blindly trust a survivors statement alone as being historical facts, as there's never a survivor that will explain what they could've done better in the situation.

I agree with your whole summation.

The whole article reads as if it were purposefully designed to leave out crucial information. Googling this for history and context appears to solely return more articles that lack any actual useful information and substance.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Read the statement from the Denver Justice Project in the article:
"..........Unfortunately, the delayed injustice he has endured throughout his criminal proceedings has brought to light significant systemic inadequacies and racial disparities in the application of self-defense laws, particularly when Black men are forced to defend themselves against white aggressors. It is our hope that this dismissal not only rectifies the wrongs done to Stephan but also serves as a crucial step toward addressing these broader issues........"

I generally try to avoid guilt by association or ad hominem judgments but in my experience, the statements out of any organization with "Justice Project" in its name will be so much leftist garbage with only a passing relationship to facts or evidence. They were not the DA or the judge or the jury, simply activists trying to get the press to repeat their propaganda.

I'm not surprised at pressure on the DA to drop the remaining charge if the DA overcharged in the first place -- leaving race out of it, person A pissed off persons B and C by tailgating them. Person B then cuts off person A and doubles down when traffic comes to a stop by getting out of the vehicle and proceeding to pummel person B through the open window. Big surprise in a state that sort of observes the Second Amendment that person A then defends himself the only way he can, being seated.

Why would a DA charge person A with murder over this except to push "guns are evil" and "you don't get to defend yourself, the police will defend you"? (Even though the latter statement has been shown false repeatedly.)

[flogger]

I remember when that happened, very busy area of I-25. I'm sure there were plenty of witnesses that will not come forward, but the off-duty cop's testimony should be 'acceptable'. I haven't followed the case at all, in fact, when they were reporting it, the race of the people involved wasn't even mentioned. Was the shooter "legal" to have the gun? Did the other guys have any guns? It sounds like the whole thing happened pretty fast. As far as road rage, who is the bad guy? Why did the shooter leave the scene? Did race really matter in the outcome?

Good example of not keeping your cool and the sad devastation of 2 families. What would you do?

[Oscar77]

I generally try to avoid guilt by association or ad hominem judgments but in my experience, the statements out of any organization with "Justice Project" in its name will be so much leftist garbage with only a passing relationship to facts or evidence. They were not the DA or the judge or the jury, simply activists trying to get the press to repeat their propaganda.

I'm not surprised at pressure on the DA to drop the remaining charge if the DA overcharged in the first place -- leaving race out of it, person A pissed off persons B and C by tailgating them. Person B then cuts off person A and doubles down when traffic comes to a stop by getting out of the vehicle and proceeding to pummel person B through the open window. Big surprise in a state that sort of observes the Second Amendment that person A then defends himself the only way he can, being seated.

Why would a DA charge person A with murder over this except to push "guns are evil" and "you don't get to defend yourself, the police will defend you"? (Even though the latter statement has been shown false repeatedly.)

-I'm not sure if you know or have researched the current Denver DA- Beth McCann.......... Her comments and position mirror those of the Denver Justice Project. Otherwise, yes you are correct, they are activists but I think if you looked at her previous comments and actions, you'd realize how much they have in common.

-As far as what happened and your "A" "B" explanation........ you are basing that all off a short summary from a news article. None of us know all the full details, and those who were a part of the investigation realize that some of those details and evidence were removed by the Suspect driving away or should I say fleeing the scene. For example.... why didn't he roll up his window? Drive around them? back up? To use your words......why didn't he use other means to "defend himself" besides shooting someone that was punching him.....just punching him? not armed.... just punching him?

-I'll be honest in answering your "Why?" question............. The DA didn't charge the guy with 2 counts of Murder, the Police did. And she reluctantly got the case thrown into her lap. It didn't fit her sense of justice (read the DENVER JUSTICE PROJECT quote again) and so she tested the waters by dropping the first charge. There was no outcry or controversy and so she dropped the second.

[CS1983]

Why should a man be cut off in traffic, punched, potentially have multiple attackers, on a busy roadway where a crash might occur due to the situation, and not be legally scared for his life?

I mean, I sure as heck would be and I’d have shot that white trash just like he did.

If the article is accurate, and that’s what happened, good shoot.

Is the outrage that if the situation hadn’t been a great test case for her ideological beliefs she would have charged and prosecuted, that’s a different conversation about legal ethics. The self defense conversation is about a reasonable moral onus to use a firearm in self defense. A prosecutor could just as easily choose not to charge any CCW holder even if the circumstances were unclear. Or any other number of criteria. If that criteria were in line with a staunch originalist understanding of the Constitution, that would be awesome.

I think the better course of action would be to influence the public in some fashion to make that brand, 2A self defense is good to go, stick on the DA. Make them own it and have to readjust their own leanings to meet public opinion desires. If they’re flippable narcissists who will chase the approval and adulation, make them realize an incremental win for us if at all possible.

We all know where they stand and their long term desires. Maybe make em flinch so we have a chance to influence something good.

What would the harm be in not over analyzing and playing by a book? Why not overwhelm that DA with a love bombing campaign that sullies them forever as betraying the plan, or maybe even flips them into realizing there’s a lot of potential power on center and right wing causes?

[theGinsue]

^^^ That is an amazing post. Thank you.

[Oscar77]

Why should a man be cut off in traffic, punched, potentially have multiple attackers, on a busy roadway where a crash might occur due to the situation, and not be legally scared for his life?

I mean, I sure as heck would be and I’d have shot that white trash just like he did.

If the article is accurate, and that’s what happened, good shoot.

Is the outrage that if the situation hadn’t been a great test case for her ideological beliefs she would have charged and prosecuted, that’s a different conversation about legal ethics. The self defense conversation is about a reasonable moral onus to use a firearm in self defense. A prosecutor could just as easily choose not to charge any CCW holder even if the circumstances were unclear. Or any other number of criteria. If that criteria were in line with a staunch originalist understanding of the Constitution, that would be awesome.

I think the better course of action would be to influence the public in some fashion to make that brand, 2A self defense is good to go, stick on the DA. Make them own it and have to readjust their own leanings to meet public opinion desires. If they’re flippable narcissists who will chase the approval and adulation, make them realize an incremental win for us if at all possible.

We all know where they stand and their long term desires. Maybe make em flinch so we have a chance to influence something good.

What would the harm be in not over analyzing and playing by a book? Why not overwhelm that DA with a love bombing campaign that sullies them forever as betraying the plan, or maybe even flips them into realizing there’s a lot of potential power on center and right wing causes?

I'm not sure if your comments are directed at me or not.......... but I'll reply just the same and reply, in sort of, reverse order...............

-If you think this is some sort of opportunity to get someone like DA McCann (or other liberals) to realize or sympathize with the 2A or gun rights etc......... I'm sorry, you are not understanding them at all. They don't care about any of that. They saw this as a chance to right a wrong or as they put it....." ..... criminal proceedings has brought to light significant systemic inadequacies and racial disparities in the application of self-defense laws......."

-I'm not outraged by this at all FWIW.
And as far as the Constitution............ it has nothing to do with this. The Constitution guarantees (well supposed to) firearm ownership by private Citizens. The USE of said firearms, like in Self Defense, are covered by State law.
In this case CRS 18-1-704.

-As far as a "Good Shoot," me, personally, I'm not so sure. The article isn't a legal brief or Police report. It's a summary. So there are alot of details that aren't there to really make an informed decision.
And if you read 18-1-704 (Which you have read right?)....... there are very important facts to weigh that are missing in that brief news article.

But lets switch this around............ Are you saying this is an example of a "good shoot?"
Cop is sitting at a red light, minding his own business, window open.
Dude gets out of another car, with friends waiting inside, runs up and begins punching the Cop.
Cop draws his gun, shoots him dead and starts to drive away.
Another guy jumps out of same car, and grabs onto the police car to stop him from leaving, and he gets shot dead too.
Cop then finishes driving off.........
Thats a good shoot? Or do you have questions........ especially if you read 18-1-704.

[Clint45]

If he had his window up and was more observant, he likely could've driven away... he didn't seem to have any problem driving off... but if he hit the guy with his car and killed him he'd still be facing similar charges.