SBS and laws

[Optimusprime]

So, thinking of getting my first tax stamp item. A short barreled shot gun ( AR 10 mag fed style) ) Are any of you concerned of these and other tax stamp items being taken away by our government ( state or other wise) in the near future ? Not sure I understand if I should file individual or trust, opinions on this as well. Thanks

[flogger]

Good question! Maybe if you put it in a buy back immune trust, if that’s a thing.

Isn't a tax stamp kind of like a registration in the long run?

[Oscar77]

Just my 2%.............

-I'm already on Federal lists, if they have them. So I don't care.
-If they start coming after the registered stuff, they will be going after the "normal" stuff too. And that will be a huge-can-o-worms. So I don't care.
-I've always registered as an Individual............. I don't care.

[bellavite1]

I went with the Silencer Shop Form 1 Service , as an individual, for my SBS.
Made things easier.
But then again I already was in their system with pics, fingerprints etc.

[CS1983]

Trust is always safer. I?m unaware of any situation where that isn?t true, but I?m certainly open to learning.

If a state level issue, can always move it out of state to an individual on the trust (whether originally or added after approval). There?s no legal requirement to redo all BG checks, pics, and fingerprints when adding a responsible party. As an Individual, there?s simply no way to accomplish this without a Form 4 to a trust or another individual and new tax stamp.

For national, there probably would be a whole other host of spicy issues if they are going after NFA items at that level. Even during the AWB they didn?t touch NFA as far as I know, except state level (which continues to be a problem in various states).

[kidicarus13]

There?s no legal requirement to redo all BG checks, pics, and fingerprints when adding a responsible party.

Always thought this was required with a trust.

[Great-Kazoo]

So, thinking of getting my first tax stamp item. A short barreled shot gun ( AR 10 mag fed style) ) Are any of you concerned of these and other tax stamp items being taken away by our government ( state or other wise) in the near future ? Not sure I understand if I should file individual or trust, opinions on this as well. Thanks

I'm not worried, or care. However i suggest you shoot a few of those semi auto shotguns, before doing a tax stamp. Who did the conversion, or is it a factory offering? Some run fine, others do not like anything under 1600 fps rounds. Those that do can be real picky, like a 22, ammo wise.

[Brass]

On the question of trusts: there's an interesting discussion by a YouTube channel called, Armed Attorneys, in which they discuss whether or not trusts are useful now that the CLEO signature is no longer required.

And, the stamp is applied to the form that is used to *register* your ownership of the item in question in the NFA Registry. That's why they refer to illegal NFA items as unregistered machine guns, silencers, SBRs, etc.

For that matter, everything else that you bought outside of private transactions is registered anyway. Look how quickly they identified the owner of the non-SBR rifle used in the July Trump event.

[eddiememphis]

Are any of you concerned of these and other tax stamp items being taken away by our government ( state or other wise) in the near future ?

Yes.

[CS1983]

Always thought this was required with a trust.

If they are on the trust at time of submitting for a tax stamp, yes.

But if they are not, and then you add them to an existing trust with existing tax stamped assets, there is no legal mechanism or requirement for that process.

[BladesNBarrels]

To throw out another form of ownership.
When I collected Class 3 items as investments that I could enjoy while they appreciated, more than 20 years ago, I used an LLC.
Only extra paperwork was sending in the Articles of Incorporation with the Form 4. Also, need to do the annual update of Secretary of State registration for the LLC, for $10.
I can pontificate on the advantages or disadvantages, but no need in the forums.

[FoxtArt]

There is a tremendous amount of money tied up in NFA, owned by quite powerful people who are ordinarily quite peaceful. Some multi-millionairs and billionaires included. It's also not on the public radar and has an incredibly low rate of criminal offense. It's also outside of the legislative radar which ordinarily targets GCA firearms.

I'm not worried, at all. Suddenly going after NFA act firearms would be akin to the president announcing they are going to tax billionaires at 99%. Sure, some people want it, but it's not healthy for a political career. Or in general.

What should you be more concerned about? 50 BMG. AR lowers. Unique triggers.

[eddiememphis]

What should you be more concerned about?

I am concerned about the inexorable slide into leftism the country is on. One of their tenets is disarming the population.

Can't happen?

To the left, the Constitution is a "living document" that can be interpreted how they wish. They are already undermining it by eroding the reputation of it's writers- they were slave owners, progenitors of our white, racist, patriarchy, etc., making it much more palatable to toss that pesky second amendment in the dust of history where it belongs.

It only takes one pebble to cause an avalanche. I can imagine some unforeseen event, causing a cascading effect resulting in confiscation of all privately owned weapons. What would be an easier place to start then the peaceful law abiding citizens that have their name on a list?

But Americans would fight that to the death, you say. Don't be so sure. You had to take off your shoes last time you got on a plane. Four years ago, it was very difficult to obtain food without putting on a mask.

Leftist government employees and sympathizers could employ massive coercive tactics on individuals to comply.

Do I think this could happen? Yup.
Do I think this will happen? Not soon, but possibly sooner than we all think.

As recently as 2008, Obama said marriage is between a man and a woman. Now we have trannys in high school girls' showers and tampons in boys' bathrooms.

That slippery slope is steep and greased with good intentions.

Remember as always, it's for the children!

[CS1983]

Honestly, if it gets that bad and there?s not an uprising, we deserve it.

Every man must decide for himself what he is willing to tolerate in lieu of death or the gulag. Most regret choosing the gulag and almost all regret toleration.

[FoxtArt]

I'll tell you confiscation is not happening in the US in our lifetimes. They grandfather weapons.

They can't find enough willing people to confiscate, and the PR is horrible on all sides of that fence. They know it, we know it. There will never be outright confiscation. (It also runs afoul of deprivation without compensation, etc. too).

Balance your decision making on the extreme end of the spectrum being they say "pretty please will everyone voluntarily turn that in".

[Clint45]

Individuals with registered NFA tend to be some of the most law abiding citizens you ever could meet, you need to jump through a lot of hoops to purchase those items, and especially with full auto such items tend to be incredibly expensive, and often are bought as "investments" because the value keeps increasing for the limited number of pre-86 registered full auto. Makes no sense for the government to target NFA owners. I doubt very much that will happen.

[O2HeN2]

...and has an incredibly low rate of criminal offense.
Didn't stop the 'dems from effing with our concealed carry laws...

O2

[Oscar77]

If they are on the trust at time of submitting for a tax stamp, yes.

But if they are not, and then you add them to an existing trust with existing tax stamped assets, there is no legal mechanism or requirement for that process.

Ok........ to be honest.......... I'm confused.

Firstly in 2016 the ATF changed the filing requirements to have all members of the trust to submit personal info so they had the identities of the trust members.

And so you are saying that you have an existing trust (prior to that change) and so simply add items to it, without being "challenged" (for lack of better word) to update the trust with that personal info?

But the OP is "....thinking of getting my first tax stamp item............" so he'd fall under the new requirements and in setting up a trust, he'd need to submit the personal info of all involved.

Or?????


PS:
Right here............. was this struck down? Or?.........since it requires background/fingerprint etc for all parties, and it seems any transfer :

Background Checks for Responsible Persons (Final Rule 41F) | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (atf.gov) (https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/final-rule-41f-background-checks-responsible-persons-effective-july-13)

[CS1983]

Ok........ to be honest.......... I'm confused.

Firstly in 2016 the ATF changed the filing requirements to have all members of the trust to submit personal info so they had the identities of the trust members.

And so you are saying that you have an existing trust (prior to that change) and so simply add items to it, without being "challenged" (for lack of better word) to update the trust with that personal info?

But the OP is "....thinking of getting my first tax stamp item............" so he'd fall under the new requirements and in setting up a trust, he'd need to submit the personal info of all involved.

Or?????


PS:
Right here............. was this struck down? Or?.........since it requires background/fingerprint etc for all parties, and it seems any transfer :

Background Checks for Responsible Persons (Final Rule 41F) | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (atf.gov) (https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/final-rule-41f-background-checks-responsible-persons-effective-july-13)

That assumes they are on the trust at the time of the application. Once a trust receives an approved tax stamp, there is no mechanism for adding or removing people from a trust that requires their involvement.

ETA:

trust: 1 person - the person’s BG, FP, Pic must be submitted
trust: 2 people - same but for 2

trust: 1 person, X stamps - add 1 more person - just add them. There is no requirement to send in that info UNLESS AND UNTIL the stamp count goes to X+1, at which point the +1 stamp application requires whoever is on the trust at the time of application

[Oscar77]

That assumes they are on the trust at the time of the application. Once a trust receives an approved tax stamp, there is no mechanism for adding or removing people from a trust that requires their involvement.

ETA:

trust: 1 person - the person’s BG, FP, Pic must be submitted
trust: 2 people - same but for 2

trust: 1 person, X stamps - add 1 more person - just add them. There is no requirement to send in that info UNLESS AND UNTIL the stamp count goes to X+1, at which point the +1 stamp application requires whoever is on the trust at the time of application

Oh.......... ok I get you.......... I see what you are saying........... thanks for the explanation!
(That and now that I understand your comments, the Q/A section has that very situation addressed).
How would that help the OP? Being a new applicant?

[Optimusprime]

I'm not worried, or care. However i suggest you shoot a few of those semi auto shotguns, before doing a tax stamp. Who did the conversion, or is it a factory offering? Some run fine, others do not like anything under 1600 fps rounds. Those that do can be real picky, like a 22, ammo wise.

Factory, Gen 12 7 inch. Seems to be the best, most reliable you can get, from all I can find. I would not buy any of the others. I would get an m4, before that.

[Great-Kazoo]

Factory, Gen 12 7 inch. Seems to be the best, most reliable you can get, from all I can find. I would not buy any of the others. I would get an m4, before that.

Have you ever fired a 7' shotgun, before? Again, i suggest you shoot one, or even a 14" with slugs & buck, before dropping $$ on a 7' semi-auto. I run a 14" vang comp'd 590A1, with full power rounds, it gets your attention.

[CS1983]

Oh.......... ok I get you.......... I see what you are saying........... thanks for the explanation!
(That and now that I understand your comments, the Q/A section has that very situation addressed).
How would that help the OP? Being a new applicant?

Individual or trust for one person isn?t necessarily a major difference. Where it might help is down the line.

[Optimusprime]

Have you ever fired a 7' shotgun, before? Again, i suggest you shoot one, or even a 14" with slugs & buck, before dropping $$ on a 7' semi-auto. I run a 14" vang comp'd 590A1, with full power rounds, it gets your attention.

Not a semi auto, but years and years ago I did shoot an old double barrel that someone had made into a pistol. It seems as though it was cut to about 7 to 12 inches. And we would shoot box’s and box’s of any 12 ga stuff we could find. Low brass to 3 inch double buck shot. And we could tear some shit up with that thing. And yea it was something, to hold on to ( but it was a pistol grip also) I do shoot and hunt with several large ( rifle caliber) handguns ( encore). I would LOVE to shoot one of these before buying one, but I know no one, nor no place that has one. To look at in person, let alone get to shoot one.

[Great-Kazoo]

Not a semi auto, but years and years ago I did shoot an old double barrel that someone had made into a pistol. It seems as though it was cut to about 7 to 12 inches. And we would shoot box’s and box’s of any 12 ga stuff we could find. Low brass to 3 inch double buck shot. And we could tear some shit up with that thing. And yea it was something, to hold on to ( but it was a pistol grip also) I do shoot and hunt with several large ( rifle caliber) handguns ( encore). I would LOVE to shoot one of these before buying one, but I know no one, nor no place that has one. To look at in person, let alone get to shoot one.

Yeah, dropping a lot of coin on something you did not get a change to handle in person. Is like (hypothetically) getting an eastern european mail order bride. They look great, the sex is amazing, all around good investment. Till you realize the lye you thought they were using to make soap, was meant for you :)

Check out Machine Gun Tours in lakewood. They're one of the larger NFA stores in the metro area, Damage Factory (greenwood village) might have one as well. I know MGT does NFA rentals as well as smaller nfa rentals at a few ranges in the area.

[Optimusprime]

Yeah, dropping a lot of coin on something you did not get a change to handle in person. Is like (hypothetically) getting an eastern european mail order bride. They look great, the sex is amazing, all around good investment. Till you realize the lye you thought they were using to make soap, was meant for you :)

Check out Machine Gun Tours in lakewood. They're one of the larger NFA stores in the metro area, Damage Factory (greenwood village) might have one as well. I know MGT does NFA rentals as well as smaller nfa rentals at a few ranges in the area.

Thanks, just e mailed them, I’ll see what they say. Again, Thank you

[Optimusprime]

Yeah, dropping a lot of coin on something you did not get a change to handle in person. Is like (hypothetically) getting an eastern european mail order bride. They look great, the sex is amazing, all around good investment. Till you realize the lye you thought they were using to make soap, was meant for you :)

Check out Machine Gun Tours in lakewood. They're one of the larger NFA stores in the metro area, Damage Factory (greenwood village) might have one as well. I know MGT does NFA rentals as well as smaller nfa rentals at a few ranges in the area.

Yea they don’t have one, thanks.