Trijicon Sights May Have Biblical Verses Stamped Onto Them [Archive] - Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums

theGinsue

01-19-2010, 19:20

Michigan defense contractor has God in its sights
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100120/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_military_weapons_bible_passages

By RICHARD LARDNER, Associated Press Writer Richard Lardner, Associated Press Writer – 41 mins ago
WASHINGTON – Army officials said Tuesday they will investigate whether a Michigan defense contractor violated federal procurement rules by stamping references to Bible verses on combat rifle sights used by American forces to kill enemy fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The Marine Corps, another major customer of the telescoping sights that allow troops to pinpoint targets day or night, says service acquisition officials plan to meet with the contractor, Trijicon of Wixom, Mich., to discuss future purchases of the company's gear.
The references have stoked concerns by a watch dog group about whether the inscriptions break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops. But military officials said the citations don't violate the ban and they won't stop using the tens of thousands of telescoping sights that have already been bought.
Trijicon said it has been longstanding company practice to put the Scripture citations on the equipment. Tom Munson, Trijicon's director of sales and marketing, said the company has never received any complaints until now.
"We don't publicize this," Munson said in a recent interview. "It's not something we make a big deal out of. But when asked, we say, 'Yes, it's there.'"
The inscriptions are subtle and appear in raised lettering at the end of the stock number. Trijicon's rifle sights use tritium, a radioactive form of hydrogen, to create light and help shooters hit what they're aiming for.
Markings on the Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight, which is standard issue to U.S. special operations forces, include "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,'" according to the King James version of the Bible.
The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.
Photos posted on a Defense Department Web site show Iraqi forces training with rifles equipped with the inscribed sights.
The Defense Department is a major customer of Trijicon's. In 2009 alone, the Marine Corps signed deals worth $66 million for the company's products. Trijicon's scopes and optical devices for guns range in cost from a few hundred dollars to $13,000, according to the company's Web site.
Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, says the Trijicon sights could give the Taliban and other enemy forces a propaganda tool: that American troops are Christian crusaders invading Muslim countries.
"I don't have to wonder for a nanosecond how the American public would react if citations from the Quran were being inscribed onto these U.S. armed forces gun sights instead of New Testament citations," Weinstein said. The foundation is a nonprofit organization opposed to religious favoritism within the military.
Weinstein said he has received complaints about the Scripture citations from active-duty and retired members of the military. He said he couldn't identify them because they fear retaliation.
A spokesman for U.S. Central Command, which manages military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, said the sights don't violate the ban on proselytizing because there's no effort to distribute the equipment beyond the U.S. troops who use them.
"This situation is not unlike the situation with U.S. currency," said the spokesman, Air Force Maj. John Redfield. "Are we going to stop using money because the bills have 'In God We Trust' on them? As long as the sights meet the combat needs of troops, they'll continue to be used."
Capt. Geraldine Carey, a Marine Corps spokeswoman, said Tuesday in an e-mailed statement that "we are aware of the issue and are concerned with how this may be perceived." Carey said Marine Corps acquisition officials plan to meet with Trijicon to discuss future buys of the company's sights. The statement did not say what the nature of those discussions would be.
Gary Tallman, an Army spokesman, said the service was not aware of the markings. But Army acquisition experts will determine if Trijicon violated any procurement regulations, he said.
Munson, Trijicon's sales director, said the practice of putting Bible references on the sites began nearly 30 years ago by Trijicon's founder, Glyn Bindon, who was killed in a plane crash in 2003. His son Stephen, Trijicon's president, has continued the practice.

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/abc/20100119/videolthumb.9160f38a2c48ced0fc5e637397724cb0.jpg

bellavite1

01-19-2010, 19:47

Great-Kazoo

01-19-2010, 19:50

while not a follower of the verses myself. After seeing this on GayBC, and the whining from the "anit-god" folks. i'd buy another one just to put some more money in their soon to be "Greedy fanatical right winged Corporation" . it's bad enough the ACLU wants info on the predator drones, now this shit.

cleaner72

01-19-2010, 19:50

its their product to do a they please...if someone idiot newperson had never pointed it out no one would have know the difference. If the government doesnt like it cancell the contract and try and find another company to produce a equal product.....im betting even if they did, most troops would just buy there own trijicon sights

kidicarus13

01-19-2010, 20:07

if someone idiot newperson had never pointed it out no one would have know the difference.

So true. I think it's clever. I never really needed one but now that I know what they stand for I may be inclined to buy one.

jake

01-19-2010, 20:10

Consider this: we're fighting an enemy that is doing its level best to convince the moderate majority of their fellow believers that we're engaged in a Christian crusade to convert or kill all of them. Bearing that in mind, is it wise to give them more ammunition just to annoy a few people back home?

It's as stupid as Magpul putting "Made in Boulder" on their products because they think it upsets some hippies, only soldiers are unlikely to be killed because of that.

Irving

01-19-2010, 20:14

I believe it is fucked up that they sneak their beliefs on their product (for which we pay good money).
They should let people know in advance so they can decide for themselves.
Why would they not state it openly?
If I was a Christian I would be a proud one.
As a Pagan I do have a big issue with it,
I do not proselytize my beliefs and neither should they.
Now that I know this, I will never be their customer.

That's retarded. If they want to use Biblical verses to help catagorize their product, while at the same time not even mentioning it, let alone pushing their beliefs onto you, what do you care?

Do you even know what you are so upset about? Have you bothered to look up any of the verses yet? I wouldn't be surprised if they were related to portions of the Bible that talk about self defense.

Are you just as mad at the Constitution for being based on Biblical law?

Irving

01-19-2010, 20:15

It's as stupid as Magpul putting "Made in Boulder" on their products because they think it upsets some hippies, only soldiers are unlikely to be killed because of that.

When you can prove even a single soldier death because of this, please come back and let us know. Before you let us know, let the author of this article know and thank him for one more soldier fallen.

car-15

01-19-2010, 20:24

all of my acog's look just like the one in the pic. with the jn8:12, who cares? honestly I love them, and i'd still buy them if they had a pic. of a dog's a$$ on the side....[Tooth]

cebeu

01-19-2010, 20:35

"...concerns by a watch dog group...

Lost my interest/concern right there...they can eat shit (but I get "the contract / financial game" to the nth degree).

....shooters hit what they're aiming for...

So does anything else really matter?

"I don't have to wonder for a nanosecond how the American public would react if citations from the Quran were being inscribed onto these U.S. armed forces gun sights instead of New Testament citations," Weinstein said.

I agree, I'd piss all over that (how droll, disingenuous and unfair eh?) but are Muslims building a better product? Eat ass "Weeney-stain." Let's revisit your fiction when that BS PC crap is in production and being procured in the real-world

Weinstein said he has received complaints about the Scripture citations from active-duty and retired members of the military. He said he couldn't identify them because they fear retaliation.

How many of those whining pussies really exist and are truly relevant Weeney-stain? 3?

As long as the sights meet the combat needs of troops, they'll continue to be used."

Rock-n-Roll.

On the flip-side what a questionable business decision? That said; They're call and I'll buy Trijicon products, couldn't care less who is offended (Unless I see a quote from the Quran, Qur’ān, Koran someday then I'm done! ;) )

jake

01-19-2010, 20:38

When you can prove even a single soldier death because of this, please come back and let us know. Before you let us know, let the author of this article know and thank him for one more soldier fallen.
The question was: is it wise to give more ammunition to an enemy who base their recruitment policy on the idea that we are engaged in a Crusade to destroy their religion?

When compared to an American soldier in Iraq using the Koran for target practice this is pretty benign, but we're not dealing with the most rational of people here.

ronaldrwl

01-19-2010, 20:39

Good for Trijicon. Stand up for what you believe in. I'm sick of the PC whinners. All of you. And Merry Christmas!

68Charger

01-19-2010, 20:43

They should let people know in advance so they can decide for themselves.
Why would they not state it openly?

They do when asked, according to the article.. and it's stamped right there in plain sight- it's just an "undocumented feature"

If I was a Christian I would be a proud one.
As a Pagan I do have a big issue with it,
I do not proselytize my beliefs and neither should they.
Now that I know this, I will never be their customer.

Pride is not really a Christian value- but it should show through their actions...

you are assuming that they are proselytizing by doing this- but I don't think so, since they're not hitting you over the head with it... and they don't require that you convert to use their products...

There could be a number of reasons why they would do this.. I would suggest asking THEM why they do it.. the article says the founder started the practice, and his son continues it- but doesn't include any statement from Trijicon other than that..

are you going to stop using American currency because it says "IN GOD WE TRUST" on it? Personally, if it bothered me, I'd cover it with a piece of tape- if it's a good product, I'd let it stand on its own merits... deciding not to use something because it has 6-8 characters that reference a chapter in a book that you don't believe in?

people do ridiculous things (and much worse) in the name of religion...

Backinblackrifles

01-19-2010, 20:58

This is freedom of speech. They have a right to speak and if you so choose you have the right not to listen.[Coffee]

sniper7

01-19-2010, 21:05

who cares if something is on there or not. hidden messages are everywhere, you may not see them. besides we are fighting muslims, so maybe some versus will help our soldiers stay alive. doesn't sound too bad to me.

How about all the hidden messages within disney or movies that make hollywood millions.

You can't tell me you will turn down an acog because of something stamped on the side of it? some of the best weapon sights period. I care about what they DO, not what is on the side.

bellavite1

01-19-2010, 21:37

That's retarded. If they want to use Biblical verses to help catagorize their product, while at the same time not even mentioning it, let alone pushing their beliefs onto you, what do you care?

Do you even know what you are so upset about? Have you bothered to look up any of the verses yet? I wouldn't be surprised if they were related to portions of the Bible that talk about self defense.

Are you just as mad at the Constitution for being based on Biblical law?
I must be missing something here,
I was under the impression the the Constitution stated a separation between Church and State and freedom of religion (or lack thereof).
I am not upset.
Like I said, be proud of your beliefs, whatever they might be.
Do not use tiny little initials.
And to answer your question, I do not care.
I will just bring my money somewhere else.
By the way,I am not calling your opinion retarded because is different from mine.
You should not either.

Elhuero

01-19-2010, 21:44

I must be missing something here,
I was under the impression the the Constitution stated a separation between Church and State and freedom of religion (or lack thereof).

the term "separation of church and state" appears nowhere in the constitution.

it does say

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Irving

01-19-2010, 21:48

I'm just calling it as I see it and expect you to be able to brush it off (as I suspect that you already have). The Constitution does in fact separate Church from State, but that does not change the fact that many of our laws are based on Biblical law. I understand your initial reaction, but I think if you spend the time to think about it more, it will bother you less.

regularguy

01-19-2010, 21:50

Bottom line, who cares?
I am active duty military, and 1 in 4 M-4's in my unit has an ACOG. I am sure we will continue to use them.
From what I have found, Trijicon is an American company. I am more upset that most of my issued tac-gear is made in Vietnam, and my med kit supplies are from Israel than I am that a manufacturer incorporates their beliefs into an optic.
If any Trijicon product owners out there feel differently than this, let me know, I would be glad to take their products off your hands…

Irving

01-19-2010, 22:00

If any Trijicon product owners out there feel differently than this, let me know, I would be glad to take their products off your hands…

Yes, I can't afford any optics, so if anyone out there uses something that resembles a cross of any kind to sight in a target, and it is making you upset, I'm sure I could take it off your hands for you.

Troublco

01-19-2010, 22:48

A private company, whose products are being purchased for issue because they are the best. If anybody doesn't like it, don't buy their products. I'm sick to death of the whiners who like to bray about the "separation of church and state". It's Freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion! I'm sick of the loud minority getting their way all the time. I'm going to email Trijicon and tell them that I love their products, I'm proud of them for putting what they did on them, that they continued to do it, and that I will purchase their products over others because they have the stones to do it and say "Yes, that's what it is."

Once again, that's FREEDOM OF RELIGION, NOT FREEDOM FROM RELIGION.

Atheism is a belief, too.....just in the belief of NO god. Everybody believes in something. Sort of like not choosing is still making a choice.

I'm not the most religious person around, but I am a Christian, and I'm sick of seeing every religion other than Christianity being coddled while Christians are used as doormats.

GO TRIJICON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tmckay2

01-19-2010, 23:04

wow, this is comical. how can anyone have a problem with this? i am a christian, but if they had muslim verses on it id have no problem. for one, like previously stated, who would have even known? no one noticed before. i thought when i saw the title of the thread that there were literally verses in the optics when you looked through it, like in the bottom corner or something. that i might have issue with, but even then, so what? don't like it, don't buy it. they aren't forcing you to buy it. its their product, they should be able to do whatever the heck they want. as stated, do we really have people here saying the government should be able to dictate what a private company puts on their products, really? while we're at it, i don't like knight's armaments logo, it reminds me of the crusades. better tell them to remove it as well.

if you don't like it being on there, i have no problem with that (though i do find it a tad strange since its not even noticeable). youre entitled to your own opinion. but calling them out on it and looking down on them for it is insane. they are a private company. where does it say that they cannot put what they want on their products? if you don't like it, don't buy it. hopefully a bunch of people won't and their prices will go down and the rest of us can finally afford one of the best optics available

theGinsue

01-19-2010, 23:54

+1 tmckay2!

WOW this thread took off faster than I expected. I posted this so quickly that I didn't take the time to put in my comments so using posts from others, I'll get my point across now.

Why would they not state it openly?
If I was a Christian I would be a proud one.

They said in the interview: "It's not something we make a big deal out of. But when asked, we say, 'Yes, it's there.'"

I do not proselytize my beliefs and neither should they.

The article clearly stated "We don't publicize this," Munson said in a recent interview. "

By not publicizing their actions they are hardly proselytizing. If this story had never come out, very, VERY, few folks would have ever had any ideas that the characters meant anything outside of logistics coding.

It is their products and I'll bet that at least 99% of the folks who have ever used them had any idea what the characters meant.

So true. I think it's clever. I never really needed one but now that I know what they stand for I may be inclined to buy one.

Well, I WANTED one before this came out, NOW I NEED one!

Consider this: we're fighting an enemy that is doing its level best to convince the moderate majority of their fellow believers that we're engaged in a Christian crusade to convert or kill all of them. Bearing that in mind, is it wise to give them more ammunition just to annoy a few people back home?

I can't imagine our troops are sitting down with the BG jahad haji's and pointing out the verse number on their ACOG & explaining to them what it means. How will they EVER learn about this? I mean, really!? I think those folks are only really concerned with being seen THROUGH one of those scopes by the rifleman.

According to the article and statements by Trijicon, they've been doing this for 30 years and it's just now come to light. I'm guessing it could have continued for another 30 years before anyone really had any idea if the story hadn't been released.

That's retarded. If they want to use Biblical verses to help catagorize their product, while at the same time not even mentioning it, let alone pushing their beliefs onto you, what do you care?

Do you even know what you are so upset about? Have you bothered to look up any of the verses yet? I wouldn't be surprised if they were related to portions of the Bible that talk about self defense.

Are you just as mad at the Constitution for being based on Biblical law?

Great comments. With you 100%!

all of my acog's look just like the one in the pic. with the jn8:12, who cares? honestly I love them, and i'd still buy them if they had a pic. of a dog's a$$ on the side....[Tooth]

Now that would be an interesting product icon wouldn't it? [ROFL1]

Trijicon sites and scopes are known for their light capturing qualities. I find it humorous that they used 2Cor4:6 which talks about "light". Well played.

ETA:

Once again, that's FREEDOM OF RELIGION, NOT FREEDOM FROM RELIGION.

That is the exact comment I use to help folks understand what it's all about. No one was ever guaranteed a right to not be offended. Why is it that only those with beliefs are expected to practice "tolerance"?

That is all - please continue the banter.

theGinsue

01-20-2010, 00:03

Grasping at straws. We have users here that WANT the government to smackdown private industry in regards to religion? Then they claim separation of church and state. [Roll1] You have to be kidding me...

Atheism/Agnosticism is a religion into itself. State should stay completely the hell out of it. Not their constitutional obligation, and certainly not to make a forced state religion of YOUR beliefs. (Trijicon: Gov't says convert to atheism NOW).

The whole "crusaders" argument is very stupid. I guess we better filter out any military personnel that have a religious tattoo (a lot of them) or carry any sort of religious symbols or the like. Because if an obscure, almost encoded "bible verse" on a sight any opposing force would likely adapt and ignore if captured - if that will make them crusaders, I guess a tattoo of a cross would make them freakin' the second coming of Jesus?

Wow, why haven't the terrorists noticed this violation of religious exercise yet! Send the ALCU to let them know their rights are being violated! Some of our rifles MIGHT have a very obscure reference to a bible verse on an obscure attachment. Just imagine if one actually shot one of them! They better lay down their farming implements and declare a jihad, America is suddenly now the devil!

Hell, this gives me an idea. Why don't we print "Using this device means that you renounce Allah as your god" on every nice set of Gen 4 night vision and thermal sites. That way if they fall into enemy hands for any reason, they'll care, read english, and politely not use our technology to kill us.

Well said!

To add: How many of us who have served had our religious preference on our dog tags? I had 10 - 20 (or more) sets ISSUED to me through the years with my religious preference on them. These were government issued items. Are our troops supposed to abstain from that - us thus not get their beliefs honored should they be incapacitated or killed because no one has any idea what beliefs they have just to satisfy everyone (including those who have never served) who want to play the "separation of church and state" card? That's selfish and, in my opinion, a form of religious persecution in and of itself.

jake

01-20-2010, 00:16

The whole "crusaders" argument is very stupid.
Stupid how?

mutt

01-20-2010, 00:29

Who cares. If they want to put little biblical references on their product, what's the big deal? I would have never noticed had someone not pointed it out. Looked like part of the serial number to me. Their product, their choice of how they 'decorate' it. If you don't like it, don't buy it. As an individual who's not particularly religious, I take no offense to some letter and numbers that may have religious significance to others.

Now if the military had requested such inscriptions as part of the contract - that would be whole different matter. But they didn't, so no issues.

As Troublco said, freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. We're guaranteed the right to freely practice, or not practice, any faith we so chose without govt mandate or intervention. We are not guaranteed the right to be shielded from others religion or religious symbology.

TriggerHappy

01-20-2010, 00:55

What a good discussion. What it comes down to is, good products are good products. If they made bright pink acogs that didn't hinder being tactical in your enviroment, I would still have one on my weapon. I am surprised the Obama Administration hasn't had them all pulled from the middle east. Sounds like something they would do.

jake

01-20-2010, 00:59

Pink is actually a good desert camouflage, isn't it? The SAS in World War 2 drove pink land rovers on their long range patrols I believe, so maybe you're on to something ;)

jake

01-20-2010, 03:18

I just want to make it clear I have no issue with it from a personal point of view either. It's not about church and state, or any of that fake PC 'war on Christmas' nonsense that is trotted out all the time in an attempt to fuel the domestic culture war that's going on right now.

I was just talking about it in reference to the other culture war, where they do use the idea that we are Crusaders as a recruiting and propaganda tool. I mean, the secular president of a secular Arab country managed to get foreign fighters to come to his country by playing up the idea of a jihad.

From a lot of reading I've got the impression that their propaganda is a lot more effective than ours (amongst their fellow Muslims), and it's not like they can go with "join the mujahadeen, live in a cave in Pakistan and get the crap bombed out of you." It's not as catchy as "army strong" or "be the best."

MuzzleFlash

01-20-2010, 03:36

If you feel their religious markings devalue your investment, sell them to me at 75% off :)

clublights

01-20-2010, 05:35

I'll assume no one said this since I didn't see it.. but it's late... I'm tired.. and already had a couple of nice night caps......

I'm not too big on religion ... in ANY form.. however I'll kill or die for YOUR right to practice what you think.
Muslim, Hebrew or, Christian .. you should be able to practice it PEACEABLY. PERIOD..

Now as for what Trijicon should do ?

Simple issue a statement saying if you use a demel, grinder or whatever to remove the bible quote part of the serial they will still honor the warranty.

Don't like it? remove it. Don't care? go on with your life.( this would be my personal path if I owned on of their sights) Love it? carefully use paint to highlight the bible verse .

Let's move on with our lives and deal with real issues. Like finding Bin Ladin and shoving 6 pounds of C4 up his ass and hold a raffle for who gets to light the fuse.

bellavite1

01-20-2010, 05:43

Troublco

01-20-2010, 09:22

PS: I would still have absolutely no issue with it on a trijicon sight if it was a reference to the mormon bible, or the koran, Buddhism or to darwins bible of creation instead of the christian bible. Why? I don't live in an ego-centric universe where I want everybody to speak and act and think like me, nor do I assume I'm always correct. I actually enjoy reading and studying all sorts of beliefs and their commonalities. I also support the free expression and our constitution in it's entirety. It is an absolute travesty in this nation that some members of one belief (Athiesm) feel compelled to regulate their egotistical viewpoint into forced existence. Government should stay the hell out of all of it. If Atheists are offended by seeing other religions expressing themselves, well, what if the other religions are offended by Atheism? Why should the government then favor Atheism (which is a religion). All parties should be S.O.L. If you cannot tolerate someone else expressing their religion, then you should not be tolerated to express your own either.

As long as (translated) in this case, whatever it was referencing wasn't
"Kill babies in the street, massacre their weak and let the blood flow" I don't have any issue to speak of, regardless of what belief they are referencing.

Well said, with a personal caveat of I wouldn't personally accept something that referenced something Satanic. Not too far off of your caveat though, I think. Bottom line, as so many here have said - A good product should be able to stand on its own merits.

I think that the folks who make a problem of things like this have too much time on their hands. Another example of life being too easy these days. I think that when folks were more concerned with surviving from day to day, making sure they had food and not getting their hair cut short or head cut off by irritated native folks, a lot of them were better able to prioritize things. You still had some idiots, always will, but isn't it amazing the differences in priorities between then and now? I don't recall there being a PETA when those tasty animals were what kept a lot of folks fed.
(Vegetarian : Old Indian word for CAN'T HUNT!)
Maybe we should send them over to commiserate with the Al Qaeda and Taliban folks who have a problem with anything other than their own views.....

BigBear

01-20-2010, 09:26

hmm.... wow. It's interesting how religion always stirs up a hornets nest. 99% of people just thought those little inscriptions were part of the serial number. I liken it unto a blessing. As they made their product, they inscribed the verse as a well meaning intention to bless someone.

I have never been in a hardcore combat situation, but there are several stories about how people "came to Jesus (or Buddha, or whomever)" in a critical situation like that. They have given up, then read a verse of somethine and find the will to keep on trucking. Faith can play a major role in ones outlook, decisions, etc.

That being said, I completely agree with Clublights. If you like it great, if you dont remove it. Issue is over. They are not pushing anything onto people. There are bigger issues.

To no one specifically - Shut up and either get behind our troops or get in front of them.

Troublco

01-20-2010, 09:29

There's an old saying - Ain't no atheists in a foxhole!

iamhunter

01-20-2010, 09:31

Man people need to find better things to do with their time.

It's THEIR company, and THEIR product. They may do with it as they please.

Maybe if they were making soldier's swear allegiance to God before buying an ACOG, i could understand the uproar,

but a cryptic reference to a bible verse? Come on. Get over yourselves.

In N' Out burger (a delicious west coast chain of fast food burgers) has been doing the same thing for years and years and no-one bitches about that.

THEIR PRODUCT. THEIR CHOICE.

I still can't believe how care-bear our society has become.

BigBear

01-20-2010, 09:39

In N' Out burger (a delicious west coast chain of fast food burgers) has been doing the same thing for years and years and no-one bitches about that.

THEIR PRODUCT. THEIR CHOICE.

I still can't believe how care-bear our society has become.

In and Out is delicious! Speaking of, Chic-Fil-A is also a Christian owned company and is not open on Sundays due to that fact. Sshhhh, don't tell, they make a lot of money and great sand-"witches"!!

I see what I did there... lol.

Yes, we are too PC and too "care bear-ish". Great term there IAMHUNTER! HAHA.

GreenScoutII

01-20-2010, 10:09

Hey, this is a free country.

If you or your company wants to inscribe Bible verses on your product, cool. Go for it!

If someone else doesn't like it, then don't buy that product. Choose something else.

This is a form of censorship. Have no illusions. The only groups of people whom it is still acceptable to discriminate against is Christians and white men.

I never wanted a Trijicon product before. Now, I'm inclined to buy one just to piss off some Liberal who is offended by something so shocking as a verse from the Bible.

jim02

01-20-2010, 13:07

Wow so much to respond to, I am taking the easy way out since theGinsue hit every point I wanted to respond to, even the dog tags.

theGinsue you read my thoughts before I even had them.

Rock on Trijicon, I even sent them a thank you email to encourge them to keep up the good work.

bellavite1

01-20-2010, 17:51

Irving

01-20-2010, 17:55

I could see that mattering for religious people, but I can't see how that would at all matter for an atheist.

bellavite1

01-20-2010, 18:11

True, but there have been a lot of religiously based comments.

cebeu

01-20-2010, 19:21

"...incredible scopes, the best on the market...give an edge to our guys and keep them alive...I decide to incorporate in every serial number the Satanic Number 666 (s/n 666XXXX),

Would you still buy my product?

Would you still be OK with our government buying it for our troops and spending YOUR tax money on it?

Yes & yes. Can't/won't speak for others but I wouldn't even consider this a topic of consideration were it reality, my answer would remain the same.

If you put 666 on every unit, painted it hot pink, shaped it like Ron Jeremy's tool and marketed it under the brand name "Satan's big pink killer stick" I would still say "yes & yes" if it were the best option/product to keep American troops alive and assisted with exterminating our enemy.

bellavite1

01-20-2010, 19:45

Yes & yes. Can't/won't speak for others but I wouldn't even consider this a topic of consideration were it reality, my answer would remain the same.

If you put 666 on every unit, painted it hot pink, shaped it like Ron Jeremy's tool and marketed it under the brand name "Satan's big pink killer stick" I would still say "yes & yes" if it were the best option/product to keep American troops alive and assisted with exterminating our enemy.

[Ban3]
THANK GOD! (oops! Can I say that? )

Mtn.man

01-20-2010, 19:54

Yeah though I walk through the valley of death I have Trijicon.

jake

01-20-2010, 19:55

Mtn.man

01-20-2010, 19:56

Please Press 1 to hear the devil?

bellavite1

01-20-2010, 20:04

Slightly off topic, but the earliest known translation of that particular part of the Book of Revelation actually gives the number of the beast as 616, not 666.

There was a bus route in Moscow that was number 666 but due to concerns from Christians, they changed it. To 616 [Muaha]
Now, that's funny!
In June 6th 2006 the Church of Satan organized a big celebration in New York.
It was, in fact, just concerts and performances, but, in order to not disappoint zealots and bigots all over the world, it was advertised like a Black Mass.
I wonder how many people bought into it and cried outrage![ROFL1]

lead_magnet

01-20-2010, 23:37

I will now ONLY buy trijicon products when I look at tiritum sights. I've allways liked the company anyway, they make good stuff.

I dig it!

funkfool

01-21-2010, 01:48

I'd be glad to be blessed with any bit of blessed luck I could have... and I'd pray for more!

MichiganMilitia

01-21-2010, 09:23

Let's say that,because of my religious beliefs, I decide to incorporate in every serial number the Satanic Number 666 (s/n 666XXXX), which ,incidentally, even to Satanists is just a number, nothing else.
Would you still buy my product?
Would you still be OK with our government buying it for our troops and spending YOUR tax money on it?
Just food for thoughts...
And yes, it is the same thing.

Are you serious??

Yes, I would still buy the best product out there, regardless of what "satanic" marking was encoded into the serial number. If you can't get over a little 5 character designator for a verse in a historical and poetic book that you don't even believe in, you need to pull the pineapple out of your ass and find more important things to bitch about. End of discussion. I hope I'm not hurting your feelings too much...

Would I be okay with our government spending my tax money to provide these awesome weapon sights of yours to our troops? Hell yes. They need the best equipment available and to hold them back and keep the best products out of their hands in the name of political correctness is one of the stupidest things I've heard in a long time. Shame on you. Maybe it's time to revisit your priorities.

iamhunter

01-21-2010, 09:23

Lots of you guys have said it should not matter.
Maybe so, but I would like you to change perspective for a moment.
So, let's say, for the sake of argument, that I make incredible scopes, the best on the market, the ones that could give an edge to our guys and keep them alive.
Let's say that,because of my religious beliefs, I decide to incorporate in every serial number the Satanic Number 666 (s/n 666XXXX), which ,incidentally, even to Satanists is just a number, nothing else.
Would you still buy my product?
Would you still be OK with our government buying it for our troops and spending YOUR tax money on it?
Just food for thoughts...
And yes, it is the same thing.

I wouldn't buy it. I probably wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. But that's the superstitious side of me.

And guess what, I have the God given right to BE superstitious, no matter how idiotic anyone thinks it is.

Does that mean you shouldn't be allowed to print satanic identifiers on your product?

Hell no. And I'd die defending your right to pring whatever the hell you wanted on your products.

If I made the best scope and printed Swastikas followed by a "F!@# the Police!" tagline, would you buy it?

Probably not.

But its my product. My choice. Your only choice is to buy it, or not to buy it, not to legislate my company into submission.

We have something here called the 1st Amendment.

If you don't like a companies beliefs or actions, don't support them.

If you like em', then DO support them.

If you don't care, then just pick what ever works best.

sniper7

01-21-2010, 09:28

I'd be glad to be blessed with any bit of blessed luck I could have... and I'd pray for more!

I like this[Beer]

I am sure the soldiers could care less, they can only hope there would be something extra watching over them so they can come back home to their families, that is what it is all about in the end.

MichiganMilitia

01-21-2010, 09:28

+1000 Iamhunter!

Remember, this is a private company that we're talking about here and if you don't want to buy their products then don't.

To clarify what I said above: I wouldn't ever force anyone to buy a trijicon scope, but I'm encouraging everyone to get over their narcissistic selves and support our troops with arguably the best product out there. If you don't like the little encoded bible verse then don't buy their products... But this is no reason to prevent our troops from having the best product available to do their job.

Troublco

01-21-2010, 09:34

I wouldn't buy it. I probably wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. But that's the superstitious side of me.

And guess what, I have the God given right to BE superstitious, no matter how idiotic anyone thinks it is.

Does that mean you shouldn't be allowed to print satanic identifiers on your product?

Hell no. And I'd die defending your right to pring whatever the hell you wanted on your products.

If I made the best scope and printed Swastikas followed by a "F!@# the Police!" tagline, would you buy it?

Probably not.

But its my product. My choice. Your only choice is to buy it, or not to buy it, not to legislate my company into submission.

We have something here called the 1st Amendment.

If you don't like a companies beliefs or actions, don't support them.

If you like em', then DO support them.

If you don't care, then just pick what ever works best.

Exactly.

MichiganMilitia

01-21-2010, 09:45

Would I be okay with our government spending my tax money to provide these awesome weapon sights of yours to our troops? Hell yes.

Note: I am never a fan of anyone else spending my money, especially big brother, but when this is what it comes down to, my tax money is already long gone, so I would rather it at least went to support our troops rather than fund some 14 yr old girl's abortion or free handouts for illegal immigrants who don't contribute to the system.

/rant

MichiganMilitia

01-21-2010, 10:01

And just a side comment for the record, I've met Mikey Weinstein more than a dozen times, and I don't think I've ever seen him sober.

iamhunter

01-21-2010, 10:38

And just a side comment for the record, I've met Mikey Weinstein more than a dozen times, and I don't think I've ever seen him sober.

Well hey, better a bible-reading drunk than just a plain old drunk.

Irving

01-21-2010, 11:49

This isn't the exact article I was looking for, but it is the same subject. How does everyone feel about this?

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/godingovernment/2009/04/religious_hiring_issue_remains_hot_potato.html

Summary - government funded religious organizations that work in other countries only hire people of their same religion.

bellavite1

01-21-2010, 13:20

BigBear

01-21-2010, 13:23

I don't see any difference in that than in lawyers/corporations who hire based on their own views as well. Unfortunately, one has religion in it. (Not saying that I agree/disagree either way, just making a comment.)

Irving

01-21-2010, 13:27

To bellavite1: Well the issue with this is that it is government funded, which means that your tax money is the whole reason those organizations exist. Unlike Trijicon that has a contract, but conducts private sales before and after any gov contracts.

BigBear

01-21-2010, 13:32

Rgr, understood. There are several government funding entities that only prescribe to a certain hiring process, etc. No links/proof/etc right now as I'm at work but I'll get some up hopefully tonight.

But doesn't everyone have discriminatory hiring processes? Certain gooberment jobs you can't have federal debts, must meet a certain phyique, etc. Some places you are "overqualified" for work... that's discriminatory too. If I want to shovel @#%^ as a job and I can do it, it shouldn't matter if I have a Ph.D in nuclear science.

Irving

01-21-2010, 13:35

To Big Bear: The issue is that the government is not allowed to discriminate based on religious beliefs, and since the entity is government funded, they must adhere to the same requirements/restrictions as the government does. Not being able to meet physical requirements is not protected by any laws like freedom of religion is.

Another aspect of this issue is that the company in the article I was thinking of, was operating in other countries. I don't know how much that changes anything though, it might not at all.

EDIT: sorry Big Bear, I didn't see your first post, and was responding to bellavite1.

bellavite1

01-21-2010, 13:46

The issue is that the government is not allowed to discriminate based on religious beliefs, and since the entity is government funded, they must adhere to the same requirements/restrictions as the government does. Not being able to meet physical requirements is not protected by any laws like freedom of religion is.

Another aspect of this issue is that the company in the article I was thinking of, was operating in other countries. I don't know how much that changes anything though, it might not at all.

EDIT: sorry Big Bear, I didn't see your first post, and was responding to bellavite1.
I see the difference, point taken[Beer].

Irving

01-21-2010, 14:00

T

Another aspect of this issue is that the company in the article I was thinking of, was operating in other countries. I don't know how much that changes anything though, it might not at all.

Haha, this is all messed up, I'm going to edit each response to who I was talking to. In the mean time, quoting myself here, since they operate in other countries, maybe they still aren't allowed to hire Christians only, but they are allowed to water board employees for being late.

BigBear

01-21-2010, 14:12

It's kewl. All just food for thought. My other comment would be: It ought not matter what country we are in, we should act the same as if we were in our own country. Yes, I realize that is a bit idealistic.

Troublco

01-21-2010, 17:36

I used to have one troop I'd have liked to water board for being late. Would have been a lot more satisfying than LOC's and LOR's.
This is a good thread, though, and one that demonstrates why I like this board so much.

Irving

01-21-2010, 17:50

Because you like reading a lot?

Troublco

01-21-2010, 17:58

I was referring to the discussions, the exchange of views, and the general banter. You're getting better though, Irving.
I do enjoy reading, and there are folks on this forum that contribute a surfeit of information regarding a lot of topics germaine to my interests. And they do it in a concise, well thought out manner. You'll get to that point eventually, just keep working at it.[ROFL1]

Irving

01-21-2010, 18:02

Alright mister! Go back to the end of the hall try that again. You need to walk this time!

Okay. [Bunny]

Troublco

01-21-2010, 18:35

[Beer]

Troublco

01-21-2010, 18:43

[Bunny]

Kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit....hahahahahaha!

theGinsue

01-21-2010, 19:37

Well, here it is; they've bowed to the pressure.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100122/ap_on_bi_ge/us_military_weapons_bible_references

By RICHARD LARDNER, Associated Press Writer Richard Lardner, Associated Press Writer – 31 mins ago
WASHINGTON – A Michigan defense contractor will voluntarily stop stamping references to Bible verses on combat rifle sights made for the U.S. military, a major buyer of the company's gear.
In a statement released Thursday, Trijicon of Wixom, Mich., says it is also providing to the armed forces free of charge modification kits to remove the Scripture citations from the telescoping sights already in use. Through multimillion dollar contracts, the Marine Corps and Army have bought more than 300,000 Trijicon sights.
The references to Bible passages raised concerns that the citations break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, which are predominantly Muslim countries.
A spokesman for U.S. Central Command initially said the Trijicon sights didn't violate the ban and compared the citations on the sights to the "In God We Trust" inscription printed on U.S. currency.
On Thursday, however, Army Gen. David Petraeus, Central Command's top officer, called the practice "disturbing."
"This is a serious concern to me and the other commanders in Iraq and Afghanistan," Petraeus told an audience at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.
In a statement issued later by the command, Petraeus said that "cultural and religious sensitivities are important considerations in the conduct of military operations."
New Zealand announced Thursday that they would remove the citations from the sights they have, and Australia, which also uses the sights, is assessing what to do.
New Zealand defense force spokesman Maj. Kristian Dunne said Trijicon would be instructed to remove the inscriptions from further orders of the gun sights for New Zealand and the letters would be removed from gun sights already in use by troops.
The inscriptions are not obvious and appear in raised lettering at the end of the stock number. Trijicon's rifle sights use tritium, a radioactive form of hydrogen, to create light and help shooters hit what they're aiming for.
Markings on the Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight, which is standard issue to U.S. special operations forces, include "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,'" according to the King James version of the Bible.
The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.
Photos posted on a Defense Department Web site show Iraqi forces training with rifles equipped with the inscribed sights.
Rev. C. Welton Gaddy, president of the Interfaith Alliance, said in a letter sent Thursday to President Barack Obama that the gun sights "clearly violate" the rule against proselytizing. Gaddy added that "images of American soldiers as Christian crusaders come to mind when they are carrying weaponry bearing such verses."
Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, contacted The Associated Press last week about the Scripture citations. He said he had received complaints from active-duty and retired members of the military. Weinstein said he couldn't identify them because they fear retaliation.
The company's practice of putting Bible references on the sites began nearly 30 years ago by Trijicon's founder, Glyn Bindon, who was killed in a plane crash in 2003. His son Stephen, Trijicon's president, has continued the practice.
"Trijicon has proudly served the U.S. military for more than two decades, and our decision to offer to voluntarily remove these references is both prudent and appropriate," Stephen Bindon said in the statement.

The statement does not provide an estimate on the removal costs. A company spokesman did not return a telephone call.
The company is also making the same offer to military in other countries that have purchased Trijicon's rifle sights.
An Army spokesman said Thursday the service was unaware of the coded biblical references until a few days ago.
"It is not the policy of the Army or the Department of Defense to put religious references of any kind on its equipment," Lt. Col. Jimmie Cummings said. Marine Corps spokeswoman Capt. Geraldine Carey said the service "is making every effort to remove these markings from all of our scopes and will ensure that all future procurement of these scopes will not have these types of markings."

Troublco

01-21-2010, 19:43

That's too bad. I wonder what Glyn Bindon would have done. I really hate all this PC crap.

theGinsue

01-21-2010, 19:46

Me too Troubleco; me too.

Roger

01-21-2010, 20:57

Well do this.

Go get a copy of the United States Constitution. And then find and show us where it states that there shall be a separation of church and state.

You can't. It isn't there. Here it is.

It says, that congress shall make no law with regard to religion.

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression (http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#exp). Ratified (http://www.usconstitution.net/constamrat.html#BoR) 12/15/1791.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#REDRESS) of grievances.

So there is no such thing as separation of church and state. What it says is, that congress can not by law establish a religion. It can be religious all it wants, it just can't mandate that the people be.

A scripture verse on the side of a rifle scope is not violating the first amendment, it is an expression of it. That is a right that the company can express if it chooses. And it is a right our troops are fighting to protect. They are not the government, and the little slogans or motto's they put on the scope are not an establishment of religion.

And if you don't want all your hard earned money because it has a religious phrase on it, just send it to me. Remember that all your money says "In God We Trust"

So in this case, liberals are trying to exclude a spiritual statement from a piece of merchandise that is not produced by the government, or a government owned company just for the sake of political correctness. And if taken that way, could be a violation of Trijicon's First Amendment rights.

How's that?

Now Trijicon has already stated they'll take the verses off. So all this is a mute point. The question is, at what point in time will the government start taking away other things? Things you believe in.

bellavite1

01-21-2010, 21:02

[Neene1]
Sorry guys,I could not resist!

sniper7

01-21-2010, 21:06

too bad. unfortunately since they rely on the .gov for money and to keep the business going this is the best course of action for them.

Last time I checked there wasn't a separation of church and state as well as a freedom to speech be that on your products, online, by voice or writings.

Just another way the .gov takes away fundamental rights.

theGinsue

01-21-2010, 21:18

Well said and cited Roger.

jake

01-21-2010, 21:30

So in this case, liberals are trying to exclude a spiritual statement from a piece of merchandise that is not produced by the government, or a government owned company just for the sake of political correctness.
Liberals (perhaps, perhaps not) express concern that this constitutes proselytizing. Army (notorious hotbed of liberalism, after all) says they have no such concerns. Army (notorious etc.) do express concern that it can have a negative effect on relationships with Islamic populations of Iraq and Afghanistan. Trijicon decide to end the practice (not, as far as I can tell, because they were asked/ordered to - although I concede that information may surface at some point in the future).

Put simply, not everything is a liberal conspiracy to ruin your day.

sniper7

01-22-2010, 00:00

Liberals (perhaps, perhaps not) express concern that this constitutes proselytizing. Army (notorious hotbed of liberalism, after all) says they have no such concerns. Army (notorious etc.) do express concern that it can have a negative effect on relationships with Islamic populations of Iraq and Afghanistan. Trijicon decide to end the practice (not, as far as I can tell, because they were asked/ordered to - although I concede that information may surface at some point in the future).

Put simply, not everything is a liberal conspiracy to ruin your day.

Well lets see, the info surfaced, the .mil said they had an issue with it, the .mil pays Trijicon, so yeah...the .mil pretty well told them what they wanted to be done. The threat of losing millions of dollars in contracts seems to persuade people. Trijicon and the .mil both knew this. You said yourself the ARMY is a notorious hotbed for liberalism, so there you have it, it is a liberal conspiracy to ruin someones day...not only that but to stomp with a shitty boot straight onto the the rights of private businesses.

I think liberals need to tone down their concerns. I am concerned with the concerns of liberals. their concerns concern me and they need to stop it this instant.

jake

01-22-2010, 00:22

The problem with that is you've all assumed that 'liberals' have brought up this complaint, based as far as I can tell on the fact that they've said something you don't agree with. You don't like what they're saying, therefore they're liberals. I'm sure I could find things that Michael Moore and Keith Olbermann have said that I don't agree with. I guess that makes them conservatives.

I was being specious when I said the army was a notorious hotbed of liberalism. I didn't think for a second anyone would seriously agree with that.

bellavite1

01-22-2010, 06:37

mutt

01-22-2010, 09:53

Well do this.

Go get a copy of the United States Constitution. And then find and show us where it states that there shall be a separation of church and state.

You can't. It isn't there. Here it is.

It says, that congress shall make no law with regard to religion.

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression (http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#exp). Ratified (http://www.usconstitution.net/constamrat.html#BoR) 12/15/1791.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#REDRESS) of grievances.

So there is no such thing as separation of church and state. What it says is, that congress can not by law establish a religion. It can be religious all it wants, it just can't mandate that the people be.

Correct, the phrase does not appear in The Constitution, it's from Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

However your statement that govt can be religious all it wants is a slippery slope. If govt is religious, especially if its actions or symbolism adhere to a specific religious thought, then it is in effect establishing a state religion even if no formal law is written. While you may be technically correct, such an 'establishment' goes contrary to the spirit and intent of the 1st Amendment.

Therefore the exclusion of religion from any official govt actions is the only real way to ensure the true intent of the 1st Amendment is adhered to. This still does not preclude members of the govt from being religious, just ensures they don't use their office and power to impose their views.

Of course none of this applies to Trijicon. They are a private company and have every right to put whatever they want on their products. It's a shame they folded to govt and PC pressure.

tmckay2

01-22-2010, 10:53

either way, trijicon taking them off their products is not a surprise. once it was found out, they were going to take unnecessary heat from people and possibly lose money, so of course they will remove it. its pretty silly it even ever came up though since no one would ever know if they weren't told. i don't know what this has to do with liberals, i didn't see anything showing it was a liberal who ratted them out. however i would say this country is getting so politically correct its maddening. i can't hardly walk out my door without somehow pissing off some PC crazed person.

BigBear

01-22-2010, 10:58

If you want to buy a Trijicon, all you have to do is call them and tell them your preference. If you want the verse, they'll put it on. If you don't, they'll leave it off. Not a big deal in my thinking. I personally like seeing it on there. But I understand the military contracts and the loss of that much money would hurt them severely. Yes, I think PCness is going WAY OVERBOARD, but I think them still offering to inscribe the verses to those who want it is the way to go.

newracer

01-25-2010, 00:46

Here is their new sight picture

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2764/4295686183_21d79be878_o.jpg

I cannot take credit for the pict., pulled it from another forum and thought it was too funny not to pass along.

sniper7

01-25-2010, 01:36

Troublco

01-25-2010, 11:00

Just because somebody does not agree with all of your views that does not make him a Liberal.
I am a registered Republican, a gun owner, against gay marriage and proud of my heritage, just as fed up as you are of people trying to tell me I should be ashamed for being White.
Yet, I am not a Christian by any stretch of imagination.
You see, political views do not have to come in a "complete package".
I cherish my right to agree with you on some topics and disagree on others [Beer].

"Liberal", while popularly used to describe socialist Democrats, is actually something of a misnomer. Mostly what it really means is "favorable to process or reform (read "change")" or "abundant". Technically, you can have liberal Republicans. Anyone who is more open to change is technically more liberal, while someone who favors less or smaller change or preservation of current ideals is more conservative. Socialist is really a lot more accurate when referring to the "liberal" Democrats (I think), although some may fall closer to the definition of Communist, I suppose.

I share bellavite1's stated opinions, with the one caveat being that I am a Christian, and I'm just as proud of that as the other things. I'll bet that almost none of us here will have the same opinions the further into them that you delve, although I bet many will be similar. (Although, I'm about ready to agree with Greenscout that he and I may have been brothers seperated very early. Are you by chance from Albuquerque?) Threads like this one show that while we may have differences in our opinions, nearly all of us are willing to listen to others, even if we sometimes debate someone's position with them. The ability to discuss while respecting another's opinion makes this the great forum that it is. My personal belief is that most "gun folks" have many similar values and beliefs, just like many people in the military.

I've heard it said that the only two groups it's okay to discriminate against are White males and Christians. I believe there are three, with the third being gun owners. Most everyone here falls into at least one of these categories, or if they're here they're probably about to. But it makes no difference, and nobody here cares how politically incorrect you are, most everyone is willing to help or lend a kind word if someone's having a bad time and needs to rant, and so far this is one of the best groups of folks I've come across outside the military. I would also like to take a moment to thank the moderators for their efforts in making this site what it is. I don't think they get enough credit for what they do, given the quality of this forum.

Phhhheeeeewwwwwwww! Soapbox moment over.