Where do I post about A$$HOLE cops?? I hope here... [Archive] - Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums

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AboveNBeyond

01-26-2010, 15:29

So first I wanna start with saying two things, 1) I feel having a father and a brother in who are officers, and 2) I am a firm believer in the Law, Like it or not, it's the law.

HOWEVER!!! [Mad]

I believe an officer should also exercise his/her best judgment before issuing a citation, otherwise be labeled as an a$$hole!

Here is what happened...

Last night, it was about 8pm, dark, etc...
I was driving SB on I-25 from 120th planning to exit on 84th
Being new to the area and having never exited on this off ramp it was a lil confusing, let me explain...

When you are approaching the 84th exit there is a sign for the exit which says "2nd right"...
I merged over into the exit lane expecting a off ramp with two separate turn offs, as if for a north and south bound type entry onto 84th, being the sign says 2nd right...
As I followed what I believed to be the exit ramp I then see a smallish sign which says "Do not enter" and right under that a sign that says "buses only"...
It was apparent to me then visually that I was entering a bus stop type exit only...
However at the same time I noticed 3 things...
1) no people in sight (at the bus stop), 2) no buses, and 3) just on the other side is a on ramp back onto the freeway...

So being I had not really performed a safety check of traffic coming from behind me in traffic lanes on the freeway as I was expecting to exit, I decided rather then unsafely veering back onto the freeway possibly causing an accident the safer option was to slowdown to about 20mph, driving with caution and pass through the bus stop loading zone area.

Well here was the problem... There was a Thorton Police officer sitting in his unit at the top of the on ramp with his radar gun timing traffic on the freeway which I could not see from the exit ramp. So I causally passed by as I had no other option really.

Well he lights me up and pulls me over... [Bang] ironically I stop on the top of the 84th exit ramp I was looking to exit in the first place!

Now then, I am expecting he would see I have a 12 year old and a 4 yr old and I am in a mini van and with a visual inspection would see I was not drunk, or on drugs and that I was simply confused by the signage, and was not someone who pulled into the area for trouble (aka drug deal, etc)

He asks for my DL, ins, reg, as expected, As I handed it to him I explained what had happened, and that I was sorry. He took said info back to his unit, I assumed he would do the warrant search and so on then ask me to please more careful...

BUT NO!!

This is where he turns A$$HOLE!

He actually gives me a citation... something to the effect of failing to obey a traffic sign!

Now before anyone goes off... I get that I in fact disobeyed the sign, but given the situation which I re-explained to the officer as I was signing the line he could have simply said, yes it is a lil confusing if you have never been by here... please be more careful and Have a safe night!

I will be fighting it in court. [Weight]

Irving

01-26-2010, 15:33

haha, good luck fighting that one. Why even bother?

Daniel_187

01-26-2010, 15:37

I don't like cops they don't do anything for me ecepcet write me tickets. Every cop i have had to deal with was on a power trip. Then they get rude and I tell the get the fuck off my lawn. Sorry to many dick cops not enough cops to use common sence

Irving

01-26-2010, 15:40

This will be a short lived thread.

I give this rant a -3 by the way. Want to talk about asshole cops? Talk about no-knock raids where innocent people get killed and no one is held accountable, or no-knock raids where cops get killed and home owners are charged with murder. Whining about petty traffic tickets will just get you a rain of scorn from all the wrong people.

AboveNBeyond

01-26-2010, 15:47

I was not trying to open a Bash on cops thread. Like I said I have family who are officers. But if any officers in this forum read this maybe they can think about it before the next guy has to deal with it...

I will fight it out of principle, I am sure the Thorton PD would like me to just pay it, that's probably why he wrote it.

But I feel what I did was safe and the safe option...

Should I get cited for crossing the double yellow line if I did it to avoid hitting a small child running out from the curb?

There is the law, and there is what is safe and reasonable...

Someone like me should not have to explain it to the judge when the officer had the option in the first place.

Thats all I am saying.

I am not this guy --> [Driver][PoPo]

AboveNBeyond

01-26-2010, 15:54

Ahh, so your an officer too, that's cool... but you know I am right!!
Next time you feel all tough in your squad car, just remember sometimes common sense requires a law to be broke, and that law being broke does not require a citation every time!

I like police officers, I appreciate your work, and putting your lives in harms war when you must all while risking the father and husband of your family risking losing you cause some punk gets cranky about you being on his lawn... I am not that guy. I am a guy who did the safe thing and was cited for it cause someone in a uniform forgot that at the end of the day, he just like me would have made the same decision.

This will be a short lived thread.

I give this rant a -3 by the way. Want to talk about asshole cops? Talk about no-knock raids where innocent people get killed and no one is held accountable, or no-knock raids where cops get killed and home owners are charged with murder. Whining about petty traffic tickets will just get you a rain of scorn from all the wrong people.

iamhunter

01-26-2010, 15:56

Elhuero

01-26-2010, 16:58

iamhunter

01-26-2010, 17:19

if the citation give you points, go to court and plea it down. pay extra and get the points removed. otherwise, man up.

you did what he ticketed you for.

don't expect it to be thrown out just because he was mean to you.

Agreed if you try to fight the citation you'll just get laughed at.

He cited your failing to obey a sign.

You failed to obey a sign.

Seems like a closed case to me. The law doesn't have exemptions for people who are "new" or "confused"

Irving

01-26-2010, 17:21

These guys aren't trying to beat up on you either, just telling you how it is and giving you solid advice.

iamhunter

01-26-2010, 17:25

These guys aren't trying to beat up on you either, just telling you how it is and giving you solid advice.

Yah, nothing but love here.

I always hate to see someone get a ticket for a stupid reason.

Once I got a ticket for going 38 in a 35.

Still got a ticket.

Still had to pay it.

Theres no fighting that. He cited for me for speeding. I was speeding. Case closed.

Was it nice, or ethical of him? I would argue no.

But the court isn't in the business of being nice.

It's in the business of enforcing laws.

jim02

01-26-2010, 17:37

I have seen several people do the same thing and exit into the buss stop at this location. I have seen several others whip their car back onto I25 and cut people off.
I have never seen anyone get a ticket there.
That cop was a looser POS and I will leave it at that.
[Driver] [PoPo]
your busted for being a safe driver, heres your ticket.

GunTroll

01-26-2010, 18:26

I saw a guy fight a similar citation in JeffCO last year. The burden of proof is on the cop. The guy fought his case with the idea of being safe was the right thing. It was funny seeing this guy pretend to be a lawyer and use law lingo but he got the ticket thrown out. The cop just couldn't prove that his "reckless" act wasn't do to the driver avoiding a potentially fatal accident.

I say fight it!

And saying anything poor about LE here is a no go. verbal lashings/bashings and warnings will follow for sure. Even if you complain nicely.

Good luck!

The1andOnlyKC

01-26-2010, 18:48

[LOL]

I wonder if the cop is on here, maybe he will hit the print button and take this to court with him.

AboveNBeyond

01-26-2010, 19:04

I hope he does, again I am not saying I did not disobey the sign, but rather that by the time the sign was noticed and given the signage is confusing. I did what I thought was the safest option.

Why does everyone wanna hate...

Irving

01-26-2010, 20:07

Okay, I thought about this on my way home.

First, your presentation is all wrong. You need to fix that before you go to court. As it is right now, you sound like a crybaby and that is why you are getting all this negative press from the peanut gallery. We can work on that later, because in principle I agree with you.

Second, your best shot in court is to use the time of the ticket. You said that it was night time, so I'm assuming it was well after rush hour. You need to present the situation highlighting that you made a mistake and picked the safest alternative; while still being factual and pointing out that there was no heavy traffic and therefor no advantage to you getting off on the wrong exit. In conclusion, you made a mistake, corrected it the best and safest way possible, and while you certainly don't deserve a cookie, you shouldn't be punished either.

KevDen2005

01-26-2010, 20:10

I would say that the officer has no real way of knowing you did the more safe thing, however he does know you failed to follow traffic laws. I am sure your excuse was the first lame excuse he has ever heard.

sniper7

01-26-2010, 20:33

in the end you got a ticket for the law you broke. now had he given you a careless and wreckless driving ticket you might have a case. sorry but you broke the law because you made a mistake and got caught. dont be pissed at the cop for doing his job no matter how petty you feel your offense was.

crzy_one

01-26-2010, 20:49

As someone who was a cop for 2 years in Phoenix, personally I would have probably given you a warning. On the other hand look at the cops perspective. You telling him that you made a mistake when you did what you did but think about how many times we stop people and they claim the same as an excuse. Breaking the law can equal a ticket, the fact that warnings are given are the good grace of the officer...

Bottom line as bad as it sucks you broke the law and you admit it. Shit sucks but it is what it is and it will be hard to fight...

Either way im glad this didn't just start as a all cops are bad thread. I was known to give too many warnings...

jerrymrc

01-26-2010, 20:54

He might have been an ex-MP. I have not had a ticket in over 20 years and it was due to an equipment malfunction but here goes.

I work at Ft Carson. I never speed. I go to work at 5am. A couple of years ago I am doing my thing across post and a MP gets glued to my bumper of the Diesel. Block after block I can't even see the windshield of the car.

He lights me up and when he comes up to the window he is out of view and says my registration is out of "wack" I ask him if he means that the tag says AUG and it is now SEP. he tells me that it expired LAST month. I tell the young man that in Colorado it does not expire until the end of the NEXT month. He asks if I am being "COMBATIVE" with him. I tell him not at all just please write the ticket.

He comes back 15 min later and once again all I see is a hand barely into the window with all my stuff and he is saying I am free to go. I am not about to even turn around on the kid lest he claim he saw "something" and shoots me. I ask where is the ticket for the registration. He tells me to "leave now". I ask for his name. It took 4 tries to get something intelligible from him that I could write down.

Later in the day down at MP headquarters I explain what happened that morning and when I gave his name I got from the 1sg down the hall "What has the stupid fucker done now?"

All the sheriffs in the county here are great. They stop by to talk cars or guns and never had an issue with them. The CSPD on the other hand I have heard horror stories about and I venture into the city as least as possible.

And a P.S. I have had in my Military career many friends that were MP's I have friends that are LEO's but all it takes are a few bad apples.

Just some thoughts.

Troublco

01-26-2010, 21:37

I have plenty of family and friends in various LEO positions, local and federal, so I have a fair understanding of a lot of what they have to deal with. I also know there are cops out there who either have a power trip or don't necessarily exercise sound judgement all the time. (One of my great-grandfathers was one of those guys who would have gone to jail had he not become a cop.) Whether because they're an a** or just having a bad day, who knows. I've seen both, for sure. I will say that I have heard from various sources that Thornton PD is not necessarily known for its nice, polite cops. I'm sure they have some, but what I've heard is they're not known for them. I know some nice guys who work for Aurora, but I know a few (a couple I worked with at the base for years) that even being charitable I could only call humorless. Same with Arapahoe County Sheriff Deputies. At the end of the day, cops are just people like the rest of us. Fortunately, most are good folks, and they do a tough job. Sounds like you found one of the humorless ones, or he found you.

I think Stuart probably has the best take on it if you want to fight it.

My favorite mad at a cop story is when a Wakeenee, Kansas cop chose to ticket me, with Colorado plates, instead of the car with Kansas plates that was PASSING me. I wasn't even speeding! I'm pretty sure he knew the chances of me fighting it were slim, since I'd have had to drive clear back out there. They really stuck it to me, too. [Rant1]

jason303

01-26-2010, 22:57

Yeah, getting it dropped all together is tough in nearly all cases. But you should always show up and pitch whatever you can at the judge. Chances are you'll get a reduction. I have lived off this intersection for five years and it gets me for a sec every time. I very much appreciate you not whipping back into traffic on the off chance that I'm there. I'm sure the officer picked that spot to clock speeders for a reason. I'll stop short of writing something about quotas 'cause I just don't know. Oops.

I also have absolutely no idea what cops have to deal with daily, but I'm sure it's the interpersonal equivalent of janitorial work. I'll give the occasional a-hole cop a wide berth because all criminals are a-holes and someone has to deal with them.

You clearly should have been given a break. It's not like you were doing 85 down the freeway and then trying to say so was everyone else.

AboveNBeyond

01-26-2010, 23:05

Well thank you everyone for your comments.
Stuart thank you for your advice.

[Beer][Beer][Beer]

Irving

01-26-2010, 23:29

When/if you go to court, forget all that crap about having kids in the car and guessing what he thought about you. The worst criminals have kids in the car all the time. Just stick to the basics of you were obviously lost.

Also, next time you're doing something wrong and you spot a stopped cop, pull up to him and tell him you're lost. ;) That'd probably get you out of a ticket.

DD977GM2

01-26-2010, 23:32

newracer

01-27-2010, 00:46

How much is the ticket and how much is your time worth?

ChunkyMonkey

01-27-2010, 00:53

I want my 15 second back from the first post [ROFL1]

Good luck with the ticket buddy..hope you have better day.

Bailey Guns

01-27-2010, 02:06

Where do I post about A$$HOLE people? I hope here...

You have the nerve to title your thread the way you did and later on ask "why all the hate"? Whatever... You got confused and screwed up. It wasn't the crime of the century. The officer wrote you a ticket for exactly the offense you committed. That's his job. Sure, he can use discretion to either write the ticket or not. He used his discretion and chose to write the ticket. Now you have options, too. Instead of dealing with it like an adult you have to come here - instead of court - call the guy an asshole and then whine about being confused and how you shouldn't have got the ticket. Sorry...if writing you a ticket for something you admit to doing makes him an asshole, whining about it here makes you just as much of an asshole.

And to some of you others... It's really no wonder you don't get along with cops considering your piss poor attitudes. It's also no wonder many cops have the attitude towards people that they do.

They're no different than anyone else...they have good moods and bad moods. A small minority of cops have issues that probably makes them unsuited for the job and it makes life miserable for the majority of others. But that can be said of people in general.

MrPrena

01-27-2010, 08:05

There are always good and bad days for them as well.
Had tons and tons of good experince with agents/officers, but had bad ones too.

Most of my negative LEO experiences were from LAPD. Still ~8 out of 10 LAPD officers were nice. Just that ~20% (~2 out of 10) were jackasses from my experience.

thane

01-27-2010, 08:42

They're no different than anyone else...they have good moods and bad moods. A small minority of cops have issues that probably makes them unsuited for the job and it makes life miserable for the majority of others. But that can be said of people in general.

Alright, I'll bite.

I know Cops have "good moods" and "bad moods",
but in what other profession does your "bad mood" come coupled with the power to fine people with a gun on your hip?

If you're gonna be a cop, that's awesome, I appreciate what you do.

But you at that point you are called to set your "mood" aside, and do what you swore to do. To Protect and Serve.

What I have a problem with is all these "victimless" crimes. Where's the defendant? And why can't i cross-examine them? If no person, property, or other entity was harmed, how can there be a crime?

Can you explain to me how the police officer's action in the OP's scenario protected or served anyone? Except the department of revenue of course.

How can I be a "criminal" and then by paying a small "fine" all the sudden everything is OK and the crime goes away?

That sounds like a bribe to me.

I mean if it's for our "protection" why does the DEPARMENT OF REVENUE run Driver's Licensing and Motor Vehicle registration? To protect us?

No, they do it to make money, and they use traffic cops as their enforcement arm.

THATS what I have a problem with.

I mean look at all the "traffic cams" being installed.

Mailing people tickets based on camera pictures?

Where's the due process in that?

And somehow I am unpatriotic or have a "bad attitude" because I disagree with LEO policy?

The day we stopped questioning this government is the day this country started going down hill.

BigBear

01-27-2010, 09:37

Kill Whitey!!!! Oh what?! Wrong thread?.... damn....

Disclaimer: I am white.

iamhunter

01-27-2010, 09:50

Kill Whitey!!!! Oh what?! Wrong thread?.... damn....

Disclaimer: I am white.

burn the witch?

Bailey Guns

01-27-2010, 10:21

Alright, I'll bite.

I know Cops have "good moods" and "bad moods",
but in what other profession does your "bad mood" come coupled with the power to fine people with a gun on your hip?

If you're gonna be a cop, that's awesome, I appreciate what you do.

But you at that point you are called to set your "mood" aside, and do what you swore to do. To Protect and Serve.

Which is exactly what the officer did. You, and some others, just don't agree with the outcome.

Nowhere in the OP did the poster actually give any evidence the officer did anything other than write the ticket. Period. The OP got a ticket and he thinks it was wrong, even though he admits to the wrongdoing - with what many would consider mitigating circumstances. But I really don't see where that warrants calling the officer an asshole. The OP didn't say the officer did anything other than write the ticket. I simply used the "good mood/bad mood" statement to illustrate the officer, like the rest of us, is a human being. You can't take that 100% out of the equation no matter how nice it would be.

What I have a problem with is all these "victimless" crimes. Where's the defendant? And why can't i cross-examine them? If no person, property, or other entity was harmed, how can there be a crime?

Uh...the defendant is the one charged. Who said anything about victimless crimes, dude? That's generally something along the lines of prostitution or gambling. It's also off topic here. But "victimless crimes" are really misnamed...society in general can be a victim of certain behaviors. That's why when you get charged with a crime it's the "criminal vs State of Colorado".

Can you explain to me how the police officer's action in the OP's scenario protected or served anyone? Except the department of revenue of course.

Yep. I'm willing to bet it has forever changed the behavior of the OP. The OP admitted that moving back into the through lanes on the interstate would have been dangerous. He'll probably never make the same mistake on that exit again. 1 less dangerous driver at that particular intersection. You've been served.

How can I be a "criminal" and then by paying a small "fine" all the sudden everything is OK and the crime goes away?

That sounds like a bribe to me.

Uh...a traffic infraction such as this is not a criminal offense. That's why it's called an "infraction". Seems like you need to brush up on your definitions a little bit before you attempt to make a lame argument.

I mean if it's for our "protection" why does the DEPARMENT OF REVENUE run Driver's Licensing and Motor Vehicle registration? To protect us?

No, they do it to make money, and they use traffic cops as their enforcement arm.

THATS what I have a problem with.

Are you serious? Really? You don't believe the state traffic laws and regs are in place for protection of motorists in general? I'm not even going to explain this. Just think about what you've written here.

I'll give you a hint: DoR, in terms of the traffic laws and regulations, only regulates motor vehicle laws the state legislature has passed.

I mean look at all the "traffic cams" being installed.

Mailing people tickets based on camera pictures?

Where's the due process in that?

No one has taken away your "due process". You don't have to pay the fine. You can still go to court and challenge the ticket. Please explain how that violates your "due process" protections. I'm really interested to hear this.

And somehow I am unpatriotic or have a "bad attitude" because I disagree with LEO policy?

The day we stopped questioning this government is the day this country started going down hill.

OK...now I'll bite. Where did anyone mention you are unpatriotic because you disagree with a policy?

Sounds like you're just slightly immature and need to grow up a little bit. It also sounds like you've heard some of these things discussed before and you're just regurgitating some talking points rather than really thinking about them.

Furthermore, no one here (unless they're a TPD officer) really knows why this officer did what he did. Higher-ups often mandate to street-level officers a particular task to be undertaken:

Go to a particular intersection and write stop sign violations
Go to a particular location and conduct radar enforcement - sometimes a speed threshold is mandated. On my dept it was often 6 mph over the limit
Go to a school zone and enforce speed...zero toleranceYou don't know that this officer wasn't acting on orders from above because of numerous complaints or some other reason...maybe a councilman was cut-off at that intersection and was pissed and jumped square into the police chief's s**t about the unsafe conditions there. Then the chief went to the division commander and he went to the watch commander and he went to the shift supervisor and he went to that officer...and the OP screwed up and got the ticket.

Some of you don't like cops...I get that. Some do. But anyone who complains about some chickenshit ticket and calls the cop an asshole - after admitting the violation that got him the ticket - isn't immune from complaints back in their direction.

Freedom to speak and bitch about stuff is a two-way street.

KevDen2005

01-27-2010, 10:35

KevDen2005

01-27-2010, 10:38

Also just wanted to say that I agree with Baily Guns, when you start your post with "Asshole Cops" I think you are gonna get a lot of people attacking you. What do you do for a living? Should I start my post with, "Where do I post about Asshole (place your job here)....?

AboveNBeyond

01-27-2010, 10:52

OK, last post from me, the OP...

Let me clear up something, the Officer did not do anything wrong, he did not harass me, he was not mean about it, he basically said only what he needed to... can I have your Lic, Ins, did not ask for Reg, etc...

I whip out the A-hole word because he could have simply let me off with a warning. I guess if there was a quota or mandate from above he might not have had a choice per say but I still feel he could have choose not to, and given the infraction I think he should have.

Him hearing me say 2 things, I am new to the area, and I was confused by the signage, "I think/feel" also being it was such a minor violation of which no accident was caused and nobody was put in danger warranted a simple warning. I would not forget the exit not because of the citation, but the pretty lights.

To answer the $$ amount of the violation, I don't know yet. I guess it gets mailed to me, I guess depending on the amount and if it has points attached or not will be the final determining factor to fight or not.

Lastly, I do not mean to sound like a whiner! I just know being like I said earlier I have 2 family members that are LEO, that he had options. I also know there are LEOs on this forum... and maybe if one of you read this, and remember who you pulled over for such a minor violation, could be like me a former military (USN 91-94), and might not be such a bad guy, and if after you pull me over and you determine all paperwork is legal and up to date, and I am sober, and has a good driving record, and that really nothing but a simple infraction happened... someone would learn from a warning just as much as a citation... and you all would have some good PR on that reputation you seem to have and hear about from other posters even in this thread.

Have a good day, and I am out. [Beer]

TFOGGER

01-27-2010, 10:57

Uh...a traffic infraction such as this is not a criminal offense. That's why it's called an "infraction". Seems like you need to brush up on your definitions a little bit before you attempt to make a lame argument.

Semantics. If it's an "infraction" and not a crime, then why can the court impose fines and jail time if you are convicted? If it's not a crime, then why are there criminal penalties for failure to appear and answer the charges?

I agree that the OP should probably STFU and take his lumps. He did what the officer cited him for, and the officer was within his authority to write the citation. On the other hand, much of what the average traffic cop does during the day is simply generating revenue. I appreciate that cops take on a job that many, if not most, people are temperamentally unsuited for. My stepson is a deputy sheriff, and he does a helluva job. Like any other profession, police work attracts both good and bad people; unlike most, law enforcement comes with the responsibility to detach your emotions from the situation at hand and act in a purely rational manner. Some cops do this with amazing grace, others allow their emotions to govern them, and turn into badge heavy pricks. The big difference between their job and most others it that their decisions are backed by the color(if not the letter) of law, and the use of force (up to and including lethal force).

/rant

Have a nice day, officer![Flower]

Bailey Guns

01-27-2010, 11:02

BTW...I've never heard of a department having a "quota". Most let officers write as many tickets as they want.

Bailey Guns

01-27-2010, 11:10

Semantics. If it's an "infraction" and not a crime, then why can the court impose fines and jail time if you are convicted? If it's not a crime, then why are there criminal penalties for failure to appear and answer the charges?

It's not semantics. It would be semantics if "infraction" and "criminal offense" meant the same thing and carried the same punishment. You won't be sentenced to jail for a traffic infraction. If you don't go to court, Failure to Appear after a summons is issued is a separate offense. Then it becomes criminal. Really have no argument with the rest. And FYI, I haven't been in LE for almost 10 years.

Mtn.man

01-27-2010, 11:17

Don't do da crime is ya can't do da time.

Well said BG...

funkfool

01-27-2010, 11:50

Ok - against my better judjment... but here goes.
I think Stuart was right - in one regard at least - it IS about presentation... and perspective. I believe you should go to court because of this statement:

I decided rather then unsafely veering back onto the freeway possibly causing an accident the safer option was to slowdown...

This IS an UNSAFE area and the more people that speak up about it - maybe because they received a citation - the more likely that it may get changed...
BEFORE someone gets injured or killed.
BTW: Do you think the ticketing officer may be trying to change that very thing and by issuing you a citation - trying to bring about that necessary change?
Just my 0.02¢

thane

01-27-2010, 11:53

@BaileyGuns

If you think that someone how fining someone for disobeying a sign or going over the speed limit somehow makes the world a safer place, god bless you.

But here's some food for thought.

A) Many people have gotten multiple speeding tickets. It doesn't stop them from speeding.

B) It doesn't take fear of retribution for people to behave. That's what tyrants do. People don't stop at red lights because they are afraid of tickets. They stop at red lights because its SAFE & COURTEOUS.

C) If These "traffic regulations" are meant to keep us safe, why does Germany, where 50% of all roads have NO SPEED LIMIT, maintain less than HALF the traffic fatality per capita that the United states does?

And if you do get accused of a "traffic violation", how can you be guaranteed a fair and impartial trial?

Almost 50% of the money you pay for that violation goes to the city or county where the ticket was given. That money is generally used for court operations, police or prosecutors.

The traffic violation business generates between 7.5 and 15 BILLION dollars a year.

How can you expect an unbiased accusation, or trial for that matter, when the accuser and judge's payroll hangs in the balance?

Lastly, to the Orignial Poster if you really want to go to court you could refer to section 42-2-101 8 A of the Colorado revised statues....

(8) The conduct of a driver of a motor vehicle which would otherwise constitute a violation of this section is justifiable and not unlawful when:

(a) It is necessary as an emergency measure to avoid an imminent public or private injury which is about to occur by reason of a situation occasioned or developed through no conduct of said driver and which is of sufficient gravity that, according to ordinary standards of intelligence and morality, the desirability and urgency of avoiding the injury clearly outweigh the desirability of avoiding the injury sought to be prevented by this section; or

I would argue that the poor signage, provided by the state, led to the rise of situation in which you were forced to make a decision, and you chose the less dangerous of the two conforming to standards of "intelligence and morality".

Good luck.

jason303

01-27-2010, 11:54

And just when the lid was about to be put back on the can. [Coffee]

Irving

01-27-2010, 12:12

Just because there aren't official quotas, doesn't mean that officers aren't encouraged to write as many tickets as they can.

AboveNBeyond

01-27-2010, 12:25

I will make an exception to my earlier post saying it was my last to say thank you.

@BaileyGuns

If you think that someone how fining someone for disobeying a sign or going over the speed limit somehow makes the world a safer place, god bless you.

But here's some food for thought.

A) Many people have gotten multiple speeding tickets. It doesn't stop them from speeding.

B) It doesn't take fear of retribution for people to behave. That's what tyrants do. People don't stop at red lights because they are afraid of tickets. They stop at red lights because its SAFE & COURTEOUS.

C) If These "traffic regulations" are meant to keep us safe, why does Germany, where 50% of all roads have NO SPEED LIMIT, maintain less than HALF the traffic fatality per capita that the United states does?

And if you do get accused of a "traffic violation", how can you be guaranteed a fair and impartial trial?

Almost 50% of the money you pay for that violation goes to the city or county where the ticket was given. That money is generally used for court operations, police or prosecutors.

The traffic violation business generates between 7.5 and 15 BILLION dollars a year.

How can you expect an unbiased accusation, or trial for that matter, when the accuser and judge's payroll hangs in the balance?

Lastly, to the Orignial Poster if you really want to go to court you could refer to section 42-2-101 8 A of the Colorado revised statues....

(8) The conduct of a driver of a motor vehicle which would otherwise constitute a violation of this section is justifiable and not unlawful when:

(a) It is necessary as an emergency measure to avoid an imminent public or private injury which is about to occur by reason of a situation occasioned or developed through no conduct of said driver and which is of sufficient gravity that, according to ordinary standards of intelligence and morality, the desirability and urgency of avoiding the injury clearly outweigh the desirability of avoiding the injury sought to be prevented by this section; or

I would argue that the poor signage, provided by the state, led to the rise of situation in which you were forced to make a decision, and you chose the less dangerous of the two conforming to standards of "intelligence and morality".

Good luck.

glock21

01-27-2010, 12:42

hey bro im sorry we should have stuck to the first meeting place but no i had to be selfish and change it hahaha, abovenbeyond is a good guy and sometimes bad things happen, im sorry again hahaha but atleast the trade went well

Bailey Guns

01-27-2010, 12:45

@BaileyGuns

If you think that someone how fining someone for disobeying a sign or going over the speed limit somehow makes the world a safer place, god bless you.

But here's some food for thought.

Doesn't surprise me that you totally missed the point. DoR regulates motor vehicle licensing, which is instituted by the state legislature, for safety and other reasons. Vehicles must be inspected (commercial vehicles), drivers must be trained and licensed, driving habits must be regulated....for safety. Unfortunately, it's not a foolproof system and some people are idiots when they get behind the wheel.

And, yes...I think the potential of paying a fine and having points assessed against a person's license is a deterrent for some people. I've had people tell me as much many, many times. I also don't make it a habit of committing traffic violations for fear of getting a written reminder of why it's a bad idea.

A) Many people have gotten multiple speeding tickets. It doesn't stop them from speeding.

And it doesn't stop them from getting more tickets if they choose to continue to drive over the posted speed limit. And, of course, every time they get another ticket they'll feel free to piss and moan and blame the cop that gave them the ticket.

B) It doesn't take fear of retribution for people to behave. That's what tyrants do. People don't stop at red lights because they are afraid of tickets. They stop at red lights because its SAFE & COURTEOUS.

I'd say you have no idea why every person stops at stop lights, nor do all people do this for the same reason. Some people do it for safety, some do it because they don't want a ticket, some people do it because it's the law, some people might do it for all the above.

And - "SAFE & COURTEOUS" - that's two good reasons for why we have stoplights and laws regarding obeying traffic signals. Thanks for making my point.

C) If These "traffic regulations" are meant to keep us safe, why does Germany, where 50% of all roads have NO SPEED LIMIT, maintain less than HALF the traffic fatality per capita that the United states does?

Have you ever been to Germany (aside from the fact that, if you checked a map, you'd see Colorado isn't very close to Germany)? I have. I don't know where you get that statistic from (though I can guess) but it's not true. As a matter of fact, the first speed limits on the Autobahn were instituted in the German state of Bremen in early 2008 (75mph/120kph). German traffic regulations overall are very strict. In many cases speed limits and other traffic rules are very strictly enforced by radar and fines (usually very HEAVY fines) are sometimes assessed on the spot.

And if you do get accused of a "traffic violation", how can you be guaranteed a fair and impartial trial?

Go to court and plead your case just like you would for anything else.

Almost 50% of the money you pay for that violation goes to the city or county where the ticket was given. That money is generally used for court operations, police or prosecutors.

The traffic violation business generates between 7.5 and 15 BILLION dollars a year.

If you don't want to contribute to this "business", don't violate traffic laws. How simple is that? It's not the ones who follow the rules that are paying for this. I'm just going to assume your figures are correct.

How can you expect an unbiased accusation, or trial for that matter, when the accuser and judge's payroll hangs in the balance?

That's one of the funniest arguments I've seen from you yet. Are you saying juries are on the payroll, too? If you feel so strongly about your case, request a jury trial. I doubt too many judges or cops or prosecutors are really worried about their next paycheck so they're (in the case of the cop) gonna go bust innocent people or, in the case of the judges/prosecutors are going to encourage cops to write tickets even to innocent people who've done nothing wrong. Again...seems like you're having a really hard time staying focused. The OP admitted the violation.

Lastly, to the Orignial Poster if you really want to go to court you could refer to section 42-2-101 8 A of the Colorado revised statues....

(8) The conduct of a driver of a motor vehicle which would otherwise constitute a violation of this section is justifiable and not unlawful when:

(a) It is necessary as an emergency measure to avoid an imminent public or private injury which is about to occur by reason of a situation occasioned or developed through no conduct of said driver and which is of sufficient gravity that, according to ordinary standards of intelligence and morality, the desirability and urgency of avoiding the injury clearly outweigh the desirability of avoiding the injury sought to be prevented by this section; or

There was no emergency. There was no imminent injury to anyone. You could argue this but it doesn't apply.

I would argue that the poor signage, provided by the state, led to the rise of situation in which you were forced to make a decision, and you chose the less dangerous of the two conforming to standards of "intelligence and morality".

Good luck.

You're free to argue what you want. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't.

Bailey Guns

01-27-2010, 12:55

Just because there aren't official quotas, doesn't mean that officers aren't encouraged to write as many tickets as they can.

That may be true. But isn't that part of why they're on duty? That whole "law enforcement" thing?

We had an unofficial "quota" system (I hate to use that word but I can't think of any other to use) at one dept where I worked. It had nothing to do with revenue. It had to do with making sure an officer was staying busy and making contacts. I didn't like it. But I always stayed busy and rarely met that goal...I'd average maybe 1 or 2 per shift no matter which shift it was. But I always had very high criminal arrest numbers so no supervisors cared that I didn't write traffic tickets.

I don't recall the exact numbers but for day shift it was 6 per shift (10 hour shifts) because traffic was usually very heavy and that's when the enforcement issues were the most important, swings was 2 (heavy call loads) and graves was 3 or 4. But that was internal and there was no punishment if you didn't write any if the supervisor knew you were busy elsewhere. And it didn't matter what the ticket was for.

TFOGGER

01-27-2010, 13:27

I take exception to the "go to court, get a jury, receive a fair trial" school of thought. Traffic "infractions" are often not eligible for a jury trial, and in many cases, the mere fact that the officer in question chose to issue a citation is treated as prima facie evidence that the "infraction" was committed. This jumps all over the presumption of innocence, but is rarely challenged due to the time, effort, and expense required to do so. The system is absolutely rigged against the accused, in order to generate maximum revenue for the government with minimal outlay. No doubt you all have heard many stories of people taking their cases to court, only to be confused by the system, colluded against by the prosecution and the bench, and finding themselves facing grossly inflated fines and costs compared to what they would have paid if they had just submitted to the "system" and plea bargained or settled their citation without complaint.

I'll be the first to say that most, if not all of the "performance awards" I have been issued have been richly deserved (based on the posted speed limits, the appropriateness of which is a whole different thread), but the disparity with which I was treated in court compared to some of the other individuals can't be discounted. Essentially, I was fined $344 for a speeding ticket(17 mph over), while a person that was involved in an accident without insurance, license, or current plates was "continued" until such time as they could provide proof that they had obtained a license, registration, and proof of insurance, NOT at the time of the accident, but currently. The court capitalized on the fact that I had the money to pay, while ignoring some rather serious lapses on the part of someone they had little chance of collecting from, IMO.

Bailey Guns

01-27-2010, 13:36

Hey...the system isn't perfect but it's our system and probably one of the best in the world.

If it was perfect, OJ would be in jail for murder.

I have to admit over almost 15 years on the job, I went to court for run of the mill traffic offenses (speeding, stop signs/lights, etc...) maybe 3 or 4 times. I didn't write lots of those kinds of tickets but even 1 or 2 per shift on average adds up over 15 years.

When I was in court I saw most defendants (on my cases and others I happened to see while waiting) were given extreme leniency by the court.

Just my experience.

I've said more than enough...I'm outta this discussion.

Irving

01-27-2010, 13:45

I stopped reading at the beginning of page 2, but feel that it should also be pointed out that the discussion of what it means to be a public servant, and what kind of traffic tickets do and do not serve to better society is certainly a conversation worth having, but a court room is not the appropriate venue to do so. No one in the court system cares about the conduct of the completely separate police department, unless the behavior/conduct of the officers is illegal.

brian1277

01-27-2010, 15:50

So just my 2 cents. first off, you did break the law and it is up to the cop to give the ticket. you need to respect that!!

second, i think this should be more along the lines of a DOT issue or who ever is in charge of the sign and road. the placement sounds very bad. i would go more that way in court.

you should be more upset at who did the road and sign placement.

just my opinion.
an opinion is two things
freely given and worth what you pay for it

Jer

01-28-2010, 13:38

My buddy is Broomfield PD and one day on his way up to have lunch with me he was pulled over about the same location as you by Thornton PD and had his wife with him... oh, she's PD BTW too so between the two of them they have an idea how a traffic stop should go. This guy was a royal douche back to both of them not knowing the were LEO's because they didn't badge him. Once he found out he changed his attitude and was trying to back pedal. Out of curiosity, what was the name of the officer that contacted you?

litewavve

01-28-2010, 14:48

Yes, show up in court. Prosecutors are human. Some of them may have better understanding of innocent mistakes. If the prosecutor does not give you a break, judges are human too. You have two more changes to reduce points.

Here is the bad news. You still have to pay. Thornton is a poor city. I bet you that one of the reasons the cop insisted ticketing you was that he was on a fund raising mission. So you may be given reduced points, your fines will be at least the same.

Last time, I went to COS count, my speeding ticket was reduce to zero point because my record was clean for more than 5 years and I agreed to take an online safety class. But COS was $200 richer after all was said and done.

Elhuero

01-28-2010, 18:23

removed

Irving

01-28-2010, 18:35

That's kind of how I thought of CSP for a while, but don't they do a lot of stuff with drug runners? Kind of like Coast Guard for the land locked?

Elhuero

01-28-2010, 20:41

That's kind of how I thought of CSP for a while, but don't they do a lot of stuff with drug runners? Kind of like Coast Guard for the land locked?

I doubt it.