View Full Version : Your "Go to home defense SHTF firearm!
DD977GM2
01-28-2010, 18:38
What is your go to firearm in your house for SHTF(meant an an example.....a burglar breaking in)??????
Mine is either the Doublestar AR in 5.56 or the DPMS AR in 6.8mm along with one of my XD45s.
Lets here what you all have at the ready[Beer]
I keep a mossberg 590 next to the bed. loaded up with 3in mag copper plated buckshot. The wife is comfortable with using it, so its the best choice for us.
dog, flash bang, .45, 12 ga. 5.56 when all else fails,
GunTroll
01-28-2010, 19:27
Which room are you talking about defending. Got to spread em around a bit. You never know when your getting paid a visit so expect the unexpected. As for a planned counter assault......AK.
Which ever I can get my hands on first between a pistol .45 1911/ Glock 9mm and an AR15.
I would prefer the AR but in all probability it would be a pistol.
http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac61/gstuffnow/LMTSBR2.jpg
http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac61/gstuffnow/080719Colts03.jpg
http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac61/gstuffnow/Glock19s01.jpg
Cameron
KevDen2005
01-28-2010, 19:41
XD .45 with mounted surefire X200, girlfriend has the .38 special on her side of the bed.
DD977GM2
01-28-2010, 19:42
Expand room into your place of residence.
Which room are you talking about defending. Got to spread em around a bit. You never know when your getting paid a visit so expect the unexpected. As for a planned counter assault......AK.
DD977GM2
01-28-2010, 19:47
One of the ARs that is a go to!!
Great-Kazoo
01-28-2010, 20:00
i'd toss the spouse at them. she'd put up enough of a fight, i'd be able to grab what ever is closer
Am I the only one here who's got the loaded guns even in the bathrooms?
I have 2 shotguns and 4 pistols around my house that are ready to go all the time.
BuffCyclist
01-28-2010, 20:20
Is everyone just paranoid? Or do you all live in bad neighborhoods? Or do you not trust your locks around the house? Perhaps it's just me, but I live alone and am not worried of someone breaking into my apartment. No kids either. I guess I could see having a firearm nearby in a bad neighborhood with no alarm system on the house and with a family living with me.
Granted I have a 5" sheathed knife hanging from my night stand, my pistol is in the closet (3ft away from bed) with a loaded mag accessible by left hand, pistol accessible by right hand (but I still have to insert the mag and chamber a round).
But I just got my Glock LE Pricing Purchase Certificate from GSSF and plan on adding a G35 or G23 as my other pistol. Which would most likely be my SHTF firearm of choice. I also have about 600rds of ammo, I sometimes feel I should get more...
edit: perhaps, I just imagine you guys having AR's, AK's, pistols and shotguns laying next to your beds. I can understand having firearms accessible in a hurry, but the need for a firearm in every room, or loaded already (not just mags loaded sitting nearby) is a bit much. And this is coming from a boy scout who grew up being prepared.
SA Friday
01-28-2010, 20:26
It's a fine line between paranoid and prepaired. In my experience the one being made fun of as paranoid are the exact same person everyone runs to right before the shooting starts.
Troublco
01-28-2010, 20:32
It's a fine line between paranoid and prepaired. In my experience the one being made fun of as paranoid are the exact same person everyone runs to right before the shooting starts.
+1. I'd rather be prepared and not need it than the other way around.
Mine is my XD 45, with my 686 full of blue glasers to hand to the wife.
Bailey Guns
01-28-2010, 20:39
Home defenses:
Open approaches on all sides of the house with range markers
6 Jack Russel Terriers that can hear a flea fart from 1/2 mile away
Wife works nights - "I pity the fool" that wakes her during the day
Glock
Trip-wires attached to red star-clusters
Moat
Claymores
16" Mini-14 LE Carbine
Alligators
Air SupportOK...I really don't have alligators. But they'd be cool.
[M2]
I've since mounted a Surefire G2 at the 11 o'clock position so I can tap it with my thumb...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b100/89Sunbird/AR-15/548ad81c.jpg
Depends on what room I am in.[Coffee]
could range from a 45 or a 9mm to 12 gauge with 8 rounds of 00 buck, or 30 rounds of 55 vmax hornady tap, if I happen to be by the safe it could get very interesting[Weight]
Ridge, I really think you need 30 rounds, maybe a beta mag. you never know when zombies could come[AR15]
OMG you guys all have GUNS!
Ridge, I really think you need 30 rounds, maybe a beta mag. you never know when zombies could come[AR15]
I have all my 30rders in the closet, loaded up ready to go in my range bag so I can make a move for the rooftop...
DD977GM2
01-28-2010, 21:11
Is everyone just paranoid? Or do you all live in bad neighborhoods? Or do you not trust your locks around the house?
I live in a nice neighborhood. Bad things happen to good people in good neighborhoods. I am just prepared. I wont be caughtinmyhouse without some sort of defensive weapon within arms reach. I even cut my grass with my CCW on. I work on the vehicles with my CCW on. You just never know. Rather have it and not need then not have it and need it. YMMV[M2][AR15]
BuffCyclist
01-28-2010, 21:15
True, I mean I always have my CRKT M16-13Z knife on me, a lighter, and a pen. Though I have considered getting a quality shotgun, as they are relatively cheap and very reliable for defensive purposes.
i'd toss the spouse at them. she'd put up enough of a fight, i'd be able to grab what ever is closer
[ROFL1]
I was thinking the same thing!! After she gets through with them they'd be begging for a gun to finish themselves off.
I always wear my gun while I'm awake, no matter what I'm doing. When I hear a noise from bed I get up and take my pistol to check. 99% of the time, it was just some noise and I don't actually expect to find a person anywhere. If I heard the door, breaking glass, interior voices, or anything else that makes me suspect that someone is actually on premises, then I'll pull the loaded (not chambered) shotgun out of the closet. That may change a little when I actually own my house though. Right now in the apartment people walk around right outside my windows all the time. In a house, they'll have no reason to be in my yard which will change the situation a bit.
gnihcraes
01-28-2010, 21:46
wouldn't say I'm in a bad hood, but it's not great either. Usually through the summer and sometimes during the winter get a bad guy pounding on the door for some stupid reason, drunk, doped or whatever.
Ruger LCR is usually by the back door if not on me, Sig 226, Ruger SP101 in quick safe in closet... rest are locked up. (kiddos and buglars around)
Bo Staff and Escrima Sticks as backups... ha.
GunTroll
01-28-2010, 22:02
Bo Staff and Escrima Sticks as backups... ha.
Oh yeah!
j-frame .357 mag. shared between the truck, and in my iwb holster.
1911 on the nightstand
1911 on the couch next to me
and winchester x2, with 9 rounds of buckshot leaning against my headboard.
Rem 870P with #6 birdshot. Birdshot does not penetrate 2 layers of drywall, as buckshot does, and is more than sufficient within the house. I've seen people shot with buckshot and leave the hospital that night after the doc removed the 9 pellets. I've also seen the mush that 142 pellets of birdshot will turn someone into. No aiming involved (although I love my 1911's) especially if I am woken up in the middle of the night and still sleepy (try waking up out of nowhere & aiming your pistol, without the added adrennaline). If things get worse from there, pistols and rifles are staged accordingly.
Something that has a hard time penetrating drywall sure as heck isn't turning a person into "mush." Also, no aiming involved? Have you ever even shot your shotgun?
Colorado Luckydog
01-28-2010, 22:26
I'm a trained ninja warrior amd I don't really need a firearm. I can catch bullets with my teeth and I have the ability to dodge head shots.
In case the ninja plan fails....I have a 9mm on my hip until I go to bed and then it goes on my nightstand. I also have 2 other handguns where I can get to them without opening the safe. I have 1 in the basement and 1 upstairs.
If the shit really hit the fan, I'l be grabbing my mini and shotguns out of the safe. I should add, all guns are loaded and ready to rock and roll. My wife and my daughter also know where the guns are and how to use them. However, they are both ninja warriors also.
theGinsue
01-28-2010, 22:28
It's a fine line between paranoid and prepaired. In my experience the one being made fun of as paranoid are the exact same person everyone runs to right before the shooting starts.
THIS has always been my motto to live (and stay alive) by!
Home defenses:
Open approaches on all sides of the house with range markers
6 Jack Russel Terriers that can hear a flea fart from 1/2 mile away
Wife works nights - "I pity the fool" that wakes her during the day
Glock
Trip-wires attached to red star-clusters
Moat
Claymores
16" Mini-14 LE Carbine
Alligators
Air SupportOK...I really don't have alligators. But they'd be cool.
[M2]
Yeah, I was buying it until the alligators. That one is a bit far fetched.
So, if I hadn't lost all of my guns in the tragic boating accident last summer, I would have my wife's Ruger P345 .45 in the living room, and my Beretta 92FS and Rem 870 Tactical in the bedroom all ready to go.
I had a guy come to my door today who would only mumble when I asked thrrough the door who it was and what he wanted. I noticed that someone else was just around the corner - in front of my garage door too. I cracked the door open (just enough to look out but not reveal anything I have in the home) with my foot behind it to ensure it couldn't be (easily) be shoved open. he guy claimed to be working for a painting/siding company here in town [Really? Painting or sideing replacement - this time of year?]. I gave him a fierce "Not interested - go away". You should have seen the look on his face. He promptly left with his partner.
<aybe the whole thing was innocent. Maybe they were scouting for a home to break into later. Maybe they were looking to break into my home then. Who knows, but if they had ill intent, I think they realize that this is NOT the home to break into.
Keltec P11 on my person most of the time, 1911 with 230 gr SXTs in the nightstand with the Maglight, 870 with 8 rounds of 7 1/2s in the bedroom closet.
68Charger
01-28-2010, 22:32
I'm disappointed that nobody has stated the obvious (to me)
"just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you"
and I'll just give my .02 worth on the birdshot- there is plenty of evidence out there that birdshot is not enough to stop an attacker- all you do is almost guarantee they have to visit a hospital.. #4 buckshot should be the MINIMUM if you're using a shotgun for defense... anything less will only be effective at VERY close range (when the shot is acting as one frangible slug), and you're still going to have to aim it (especially at that range)
there is no substitute for practice...
DD977GM2
01-28-2010, 22:34
I am hoping your just kidding about this. [Bang]
Rem 870P with #6 birdshot. Birdshot does not penetrate 2 layers of drywall, as buckshot does, and is more than sufficient within the house. I've seen people shot with buckshot and leave the hospital that night after the doc removed the 9 pellets. I've also seen the mush that 142 pellets of birdshot will turn someone into. No aiming involved (although I love my 1911's) especially if I am woken up in the middle of the night and still sleepy (try waking up out of nowhere & aiming your pistol, without the added adrennaline). If things get worse from there, pistols and rifles are staged accordingly.
Also, before I get my gun out of the safe, I check for new threads in the Survival/Preparedness section in case there is something that pertains to my current situation.
On a serious note, how many of you guys practice clearing your house when no one is home? My ex-FBI buddy once told me that he would practice clearing by clearing his apartment when he came home from work.
Sometimes I clear my office after everyone else has left, but I don't like to do it because not all of the windows have covering and the lights are usually on and it's dark. That's just asking for the police to show up.
Great-Kazoo
01-28-2010, 22:39
[QUOTE=BuffCyclist;158204]Is everyone just paranoid? Or do you all live in bad neighborhoods? Or do you not trust your locks around the house? Perhaps it's just me, but I live alone and am not worried of someone breaking into my apartment. No kids either. I guess I could see having a firearm nearby in a bad neighborhood with no alarm system on the house and with a family living with me.
this is the menality of America when interviewed on TV after some random act of violence occurs in their neighborhood
"THIS IS A QUIET,NEIGHBORHOOD. YOU WOULDN'T THINK IT COULD HAPPEN HERE"!!???
It can happen anywhere, anytime, to anyone.
A slingshot and some rocks I found outside.[Dunno]
BuffCyclist
01-28-2010, 22:48
Is everyone just paranoid? Or do you all live in bad neighborhoods? Or do you not trust your locks around the house? Perhaps it's just me, but I live alone and am not worried of someone breaking into my apartment. No kids either. I guess I could see having a firearm nearby in a bad neighborhood with no alarm system on the house and with a family living with me.
this is the menality of America when interviewed on TV after some random act of violence occurs in their neighborhood
"THIS IS A QUIET,NEIGHBORHOOD. YOU WOULDN'T THINK IT COULD HAPPEN HERE"!!???
It can happen anywhere, anytime, to anyone.
True, although I feel barricaded in my apartment. Second story, corner unit. Balcony is a good 25 feet off the ground and nothing nearby to climb up. Front door has 2 deadbolts (one with a key outside, the other is about 2 feet away from the visible outside keyed deadbolt and is the "security" deadbolt).
I just feel that a majority of the firearms unlocked in a house are a little odd. Accessible is perfectly okay in my opinion. I just can't imagine anyone being woken up at 2am while sleeping to see a person at the foot of their bed, and have time to realize what is going on and reach for their shotgun, rifle or pistol, take aim and stop the perp.
Then again, I'd be more worried that the person in the room is someone I know. Either way, not knocking anyone's reasoning for having their place scattered with loaded guns, I just don't see the point at this juncture.
[/quasi-threadjack]
theGinsue
01-28-2010, 22:59
On a serious note, how many of you guys practice clearing your house when no one is home? My ex-FBI buddy once told me that he would practice clearing by clearing his apartment when he came home from work.
While lots of folks have "fire drills" in their homes, we have "home invasion" drills". Different scenarios, different number of bad guys, different placement, etc..
Especially with the ecomomy doing so poorly, the number of home invasions in Colorado Springs (and elsewhere) have shown a serious increase. While I don't expect to ever have to use the skills we've worked on, I would rather have a plan and be prepared than to be caught completely off-guard.
Rem 870P with #6 birdshot. Birdshot does not penetrate 2 layers of drywall, as buckshot does, and is more than sufficient within the house. I've seen people shot with buckshot and leave the hospital that night after the doc removed the 9 pellets. I've also seen the mush that 142 pellets of birdshot will turn someone into. No aiming involved (although I love my 1911's) especially if I am woken up in the middle of the night and still sleepy (try waking up out of nowhere & aiming your pistol, without the added adrennaline). If things get worse from there, pistols and rifles are staged accordingly.
I will stick with my 3in mags of copper plated buckshot thanks. if I hit someone with one of these and they go any where but the morgue they are a bad man.
speaking of paranoid... its 176yds to the stop sign on the east end of my block and 231yds to the west stop sign, and the johnson's house is exactly 100yds :)
newracer
01-28-2010, 23:26
I am always wearing my G26. G17 is in the safe on my dresser as is the G26 while I am sleeping. G22 and AR are in the big safe. All three pistols are loaded and have an extra mag next to them. AR mag is loaded but not one in the chamber.
I still can't believe you guys actually have GUNS! How.. horrible
Seem to be sticking to my 7 shot 686 with 2.5 inch barrel for just about everything these days. It's the nightstand gun, truck gun, IWB gun. The others are all locked away. I'd be too afraid someone would steal them to leave them out when I wasn't home.
Guess I could load up that 460 weatherby that I'm trying to sell. It's not in the safe. 500 grain FMJ doing 2,600 fps might be hard on the neighbors for several houses in a row though.
Guess I could load up that 460 weatherby that I'm trying to sell. It's not in the safe. 500 grain FMJ doing 2,600 fps might be hard on the neighbors for several houses in a row though.
Just use shot shells silly.
locogunnut
01-29-2010, 00:04
in my house if shtf my first choice is the weatherby 12g, followed by the xd. still think the sound of a shell racking in the pump action of a shotgun will make the perps realize this is the wrong house real fast.
in my house if shtf my first choice is the weatherby 12g, followed by the xd. still think the sound of a shell racking in the pump action of a shotgun will make the perps realize this is the wrong house real fast.
Especially when they've been banging on your front door for 15 minutes ever since they stumbled out of that taxi cab and won't listen to you when you tell them they have the wrong house.
I have a Rarden 30mm autocannon around here somewhere...
Up in the attic with the tools?
Maybe its under the sink?
Hell, I lost it.
I think you left it behind the couch...
I have a Rarden 30mm autocannon around here somewhere...
Up in the attic with the tools?
Maybe its under the sink?
Hell, I lost it.
check the roof, that is where mine is mounted. 360 coverage. rabbits were everywhere but with motion detection at night, those little fuckers were gone before you know it[Beer][ROFL2]
not trying to judge here but if youve got family members in other rooms an ar is about the worst thing to go with. if youve got some relatively thin walls that would go right through. 9mm or some type of shotgun can be a good choice. i have my ruger sr9 under the bed and my 1911 in the drawer
http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/wall-penetration.htm
In terms of over penetration and shot accountability a 223 will penetrate LESS than either 9mm or any shotgun loaded with self-defense shot. There's a reason that entry teams have moved away from shotguns and pistol caliber carbines. The .223 is more lethal and less likely to cause collateral damage.
through dry wall i can believe this, but i was under the impression through more hard objects the 223 will penetrate more. for example, on a metal target 223 rounds have been known to literally burn through targets designed for pistol rounds because of the high velocity. ive actually seen it happen at rampart a few times when it was open. with something like dry wall, the pistol round is more dense and will thus travel farther without being altered. the 223 is very light and although fast, will start to tumble. i guess if you bank on it only going through dry wall (which in some places is probably the case) you may want a 223 round. i have wood panels about an inch or so thick all the way around my house. i didn't think most people probably don't have the same set up
KevDen2005
01-29-2010, 01:51
I don't live in the worst neighborhood, not the best either. I have practiced clearing my house several times and suggest that everyone do the same. I keep my AR locked up with the rest of the guns. I only keep the XD .45 out or Glock 22 out and the .38 next to my girl friends side.
GreenScoutII
01-29-2010, 02:06
I keep the 870 loaded in such a way that the first two out are #7 1/2 field loads. The next four are 3" 00 Buck. I keep the shotgun on two hooks above the closet door in the bedroom. Kids can't reach it, but it's accessible to adults.
Out here where I live, the most frequent invaders are rattle snakes and coyotes. The field loads make short work of rattlers and if I can't put something bigger down with four rounds of 00 Buck, I figure God doesn't want it put down.
As far as two legged predators, the dog will know they're here. He'll let me know they're here too. [Coffee]
If it's during the day I have my Glock 26 on me as well as my LCP backup. If I'm wearing sweat pants they all have pockets and I keep my LCP in one pocket and my Droid in the other. Never a moment I don't at least have the LCP on my to fight to a larger weapon if need be.
If in bed at night, I have a Glock 17 bedside loaded and ready to go at all times. First sound I grab that and a tac light. I then make my way to the safe in the back of the closet to get to the real firearms. If I don't have time I'm more than capable with the G17 and it has advantages for clearing your home and the least of which are light weight, tight and mobile. If I get to the safe then likely the AK47 simply for the fact that it's ultra reliable, has a heck of a punch, plenty of rounds and if I end a life with it it can get lost in the red tape for decades and I don't care... it's an AK47 and I can get another one cheap. I don't think I want my $5k AR15 w/two NFA stamps and suppressor to leave my possession for an designated period of time. Same story with the Glock... take it for your 'investigation' if I smoke a couple two legged varmints with it because I have plenty more and won't miss it.
That's just me. I live in a nice neighborhood which is exactly why I'm armed at all times. It really doesn't matter where you live so you can pretty much exchange that first part of the sentence with whatever type of neighborhood you live in because the statement it still accurate.
In terms of over penetration and shot accountability a 223 will penetrate LESS than either 9mm or any shotgun loaded with self-defense shot. There's a reason that entry teams have moved away from shotguns and pistol caliber carbines. The .223 is more lethal and less likely to cause collateral damage.
Quoted for truth. Funny because someone started a similar thread on another forum and I was amazed at how many people thought a shotty was best for over penetration and the AR15 was a bad idea because it would zip through five houses before it stopped. If I was to go to a long gun it would be my AR15 before it was a shotty for home defense EVERY time.
Something that has a hard time penetrating drywall sure as heck isn't turning a person into "mush." Also, no aiming involved? Have you ever even shot your shotgun?
Not so sure about that. Granted it's sheet metal, and most of them didn't "penetrate." But sure looks like it could put a damper your day. 7 shots @25 yrds.
http://i45.tinypic.com/33nf3vs.jpg
IMO the 00 buck will get the job done, if you have a nice autoloader or just nasty on the pump a bg wont have his chance in a civil suit. That being said, I lost everything I had to a goddamn local saints fan last weekend so I got nuffin. I don't suspect a very positive outcome for the bg once my tea cup poodle rips the shit out of his ankles to buy me enough time to scratch his eyes out and call the police...
Really guys, the best thing you can do is know your home and spend the time to do the real research on what is best. The rules still apply when you're shooting in doors, know your target and what's behind it.
I can stay that after years of believing that a pistol or shotgun was my best choice, I learned that the rifle that I have the most trigger time on and the best muscle memory for, happens to be in a caliber that is the best solution for my need.
Kelly nailed it, and I really began to wonder if the misconceptions I previously had are the same ones that many of you hold. 5.56/.223 is more probable to be the better solution over your shotgun or .45/9mm in doors. But do your own reading and research.
As usual, a gun in hand is better than not in this "situation"
Oringial question: "What is your go to gun?"
Answer: Whichever one I get to first!
hehe
In terms of over penetration and shot accountability a 223 will penetrate LESS than either 9mm or any shotgun loaded with self-defense shot. There's a reason that entry teams have moved away from shotguns and pistol caliber carbines. The .223 is more lethal and less likely to cause collateral damage.
Entry teams moved to .223 to defeat armor which is more available now. They can not use birdshot because of the liability issue if 1 pellet hit someone not intended. Slugs overpenetrate, thus .223 was the next logical choice.
If one pellet hit someone? You've got to be kidding. There is no way any law enforcement would use bird shot for anything but a unit hunting trip.
Marlin, He would have lived to sue another day. ;)
My dogs are my first line of defense. If someone made it into my home and past my dogs, 1911 and my AR. Michelle will be locked in the bedroom with Elliana and another AR and XD .45, and she is an excellent shot. My shotguns are in the safe in the basement, but when I get my M4 it will be in the closet.
[quote=Stuart;158370]If one pellet hit someone? You've got to be kidding. There is no way any law enforcement would use bird shot for anything but a unit hunting trip.
That's what I said....they can not, so they went to .223
Marlin, He would have lived to sue another day. ;)
There is the sarcastic answer and, the what I believe answer..
Not that I would birdshot anyway. I have much better things than that..
Just like proving that birdshot is better than nothing...
Of course it is, especially up close. How incapacitating is birdshot though, that is the issue. I don't like getting shot with airsoft, it f'ing hurts, but it's not incapacitating.
GreenScoutII
01-29-2010, 12:44
My dogs are my first line of defense.
I hear you. Old Riggs shows amazingly good judgement when it comes to people/critters showing up unannounced. He is not the type of dog to just bark like crazy at anything (except motorcycles).
Usually, if a friend or family member drives up, Riggs somehow knows they are a "friendly". He'll wag his tail and bark once or twice just to let me know they're here. This behavior will start long before they actually get to the house.
If a coyote or unknown person shows up at night, Riggs will wake up from a dead sleep and give his alarm bark. Somehow he knows they're coming, not just that they're here. Its like he has a sixth sense or something.
He is the most gentle dog I've ever met, but I have no doubt he would fight a rabid T-Rex to protect his humans...
Well, I guess if you show up at a shoot,, We could do an experiment.. [Abused]
Well, I guess if you show up at a shoot,, We could do an experiment.. [Abused]
I've seriously considered it. I've been hit in the chest and neck from ricochets of birdshot before and I'd take that over an airsoft any day. I realize that a ricochet has lost nearly all energy though.
I hear you. Old Riggs shows amazingly good judgement when it comes to people/critters showing up unannounced. He is not the type of dog to just bark like crazy at anything (except motorcycles).
Usually, if a friend or family member drives up, Riggs somehow knows they are a "friendly". He'll wag his tail and bark once or twice just to let me know they're here. This behavior will start long before they actually get to the house.
If a coyote or unknown person shows up at night, Riggs will wake up from a dead sleep and give his alarm bark. Somehow he knows they're coming, not just that they're here. Its like he has a sixth sense or something.
He is the most gentle dog I've ever met, but I have no doubt he would fight a rabid T-Rex to protect his humans...
i had a golden like this growing up. kindest dog on the face of the earth. let kids tug and pull on her, loved to play, barked when people came to the door or drove up in the driveway, but in a way that didn't sound scary at all. then one time a random guy drove up the drive way in the afternoon when my mom and i were the only ones home, out in the country. libby came running out of the corn field, hair standing up on the back of her neck and for the first time in my life i heard her growl. the guy said he just wanted directions, but when he went to pen his door libby got right up in the window. he jumped back and asked if she would bite and my mom wisely said "i don't know..." so the guy just asked directions and left. funny thing is too she never seemed to like to mail man much but LOVED the ups guy. dang, i need to get a dog
buffalobo
01-29-2010, 13:03
First line is Buddy the blue heeler. Different guns in different rooms, depends on where I or wife are when alerted. Primarily short barrel 20 ga. and whatever handgun we happen to be wearing or if in bed what is in bed holster mounted to bedframe. One of the ways I got the wife to take interest in home defense was to convince her to practice with me clearing house. She enjoys it and regularly comes up with new tactics and will even rearrange the furniture for different scenarios.
Side note, she moves the furniture every couple months anyway. Always has, don't know why. Drives me nuts. Leave it alone so I can move around without lights. She says for cleaning and she just gets tired of always being the same. Now days I don't mind cause if I come home and furniture is rearranged then I know she will suggest we run drills. If it is her idea then if something(lamp, vase etc.) gets broken I'm not in the dog house for couple days.
iamhunter
01-29-2010, 13:30
Security system, giant dog, and then a Mossberg with a Glock 21 for Backup.
5.56 is a little overkill for interior home defense in my opinion...
For a 1v1 scenario a shotgun offers much better room for stress error (you only have to aim in his general direction)
less possibility for unwanted bullet penetration (through walls and what not)
and a huge intimidation factor that goes along with it...
The downside to a shotgun is that if he gets to close, the shotgun becomes unwieldy due to barrel length.
In that scenario (which I doubt would happen)
I'd whip out my Glock 21 and let him have fun with some .45 ACP.
Mine is a compact 1911, my everyday carry piece. I have lots of other guns that would be better suited for h/d, but the wife won't tolerate loaded guns where she might see them or the stupid grandkid or his stupid friends might find them and screw with them.
What I would prefer to keep handy would be my M1 carbine. I feel those are one of the most perfect defensive weapons ever made.
It's driving me crazy how many people think that you don't need to aim a shotgun.
Bailey Guns
01-29-2010, 13:57
There is some serious "mall ninja" mentality being displayed in this thread.
I agreee about the "aim a shotgun in the general direction" and the ".223 penetrates more than a 9mm/.45ACP/too much for indoor use" myths. It's extremely annoying to see that on a forum where you'd think people would know better.
First line is Buddy the blue heeler. Different guns in different rooms, depends on where I or wife are when alerted. Primarily short barrel 20 ga. and whatever handgun we happen to be wearing or if in bed what is in bed holster mounted to bedframe. One of the ways I got the wife to take interest in home defense was to convince her to practice with me clearing house. She enjoys it and regularly comes up with new tactics and will even rearrange the furniture for different scenarios.
Side note, she moves the furniture every couple months anyway. Always has, don't know why. Drives me nuts. Leave it alone so I can move around without lights. She says for cleaning and she just gets tired of always being the same. Now days I don't mind cause if I come home and furniture is rearranged then I know she will suggest we run drills. If it is her idea then if something(lamp, vase etc.) gets broken I'm not in the dog house for couple days.
This is awesome!!!
My dog is Buddy the Boxer!
I've got zero experience with .223, so I would assume that it penetrates more, but the simple explanation of "light weight round at high speeds breaks up, like shooting into water" is enough to convince me. coloccw sent me a video where guys send some rounds through some drywall, but the video leaves out all the import parts when they get to .223.
I hear you. Old Riggs shows amazingly good judgement when it comes to people/critters showing up unannounced. He is not the type of dog to just bark like crazy at anything (except motorcycles).
Usually, if a friend or family member drives up, Riggs somehow knows they are a "friendly". He'll wag his tail and bark once or twice just to let me know they're here. This behavior will start long before they actually get to the house.
If a coyote or unknown person shows up at night, Riggs will wake up from a dead sleep and give his alarm bark. Somehow he knows they're coming, not just that they're here. Its like he has a sixth sense or something.
He is the most gentle dog I've ever met, but I have no doubt he would fight a rabid T-Rex to protect his humans...
Want to mess with his favorite girl?
http://i48.tinypic.com/nb96i1.jpg
Tyson barks at the doorbell, if he barks at anything else, something is wrong. I know he would defend me and my family.
I got into a fight with a drunk canuck cowboy in front of him and he had a grip on the dude's calve and was trying to pull him out from under me. Snoop is a big baby, but he sounds like a bear when he barks. I'll (hopefully) never have to use a gun to defend my family.
I've got zero experience with .223, so I would assume that it penetrates more, but the simple explanation of "light weight round at high speeds breaks up, like shooting into water" is enough to convince me. coloccw sent me a video where guys send some rounds through some drywall, but the video leaves out all the import parts when they get to .223.
Well, if you can round up the materials and get them hauled away,, I'm limited in both capacities at the moment, I can build a wall to shoot at and do our own little experiments...
Thanks for the offer, but I've seen the results on box o' truth that are better documented than on that video I watched today.
Bailey Guns
01-29-2010, 14:41
The FBI pretty much did the definitive .223 vs handgun penetration tests. It used to be on the FirearmsTactical.com website but I can't find it any longer.
Of course it is, especially up close. How incapacitating is birdshot though, that is the issue.
I've seen the results (first hand)of an intruder shot with #6 shot at 37 feet. It took the doc hours to remove the 142 pellets from the body since the shock from the multiple wound channels damaged the internal organs to the point where they were almost liquid. Remember, it's not the bullet that causes most of the damage in a gunshot, but rather the over/under pressure to the air filled cavities in the body that kills somone.
So it actually killed the guy?
iamhunter
01-29-2010, 15:58
There is some serious "mall ninja" mentality being displayed in this thread.
I agreee about the "aim a shotgun in the general direction" and the ".223 penetrates more than a 9mm/.45ACP/too much for indoor use" myths. It's extremely annoying to see that on a forum where you'd think people would know better.
See, I thought this was a forum of like-minded enthusiasts who could have intelligent, civilized discussion. But I guess attacking people's opinions and calling them "Mall Ninjas" is a better way to promote community.
Obviously I didn't think that a knowledgeable gunman would take my claim as shooting in the "general direction" at face value. What I really meant is you can afford to be LESS PRECISE with your aim (which is a common occurence under stress)
But since you seem to more of a facts oriented guy, let's present some of those.
At a distance of 5 feet or under, a 18" barreled 12 gauge shot gun (using 00 buckshot) will provide a 2" spread, carrying the wadding into the wound with the pellets, and creating a solid 2" hole.
As distance increases to 10 feet, your looking at a 4" hole,
at distances greater than 20 feet, you no longer had a solid hole and instead have a spread of pellets 9"-12", creating a still incapacitating and quite probably fatal injury, and no chance of wall penetration.
So, just using straight statistics, as compared to .223
@ <5 feet, you have a 450% greater allowed margin of aiming error
@ <10 feet this increases to 900%
and @ >20 feet this increases to 2500%
As compared to .45 ACP these numbers are 225%, 450%, and 1250% respectively.
If you would like to reproduce these numbers on your own to test for accuracy,
Now you may argue that these percentages represent only inches in real life, but when shot placement counts, those inches could make the difference between life or death.
And as for penetration, I've actually run my own tests (based on an article I read).
Using leftover drywall from a remodel I did (fully intact) I simulated walls by connecting two pieces of drywall to 2x4 studs and stuffing the insides iwth left over insulation material.
I set up three walls at 10 foot intervals, and started shooting.
Both Hornady TAP 55 grain and 60 grain (common "self defense" rounds)
Penetrated all three simuated walls, although some of the 60 grain bullets had begun to fragment by the third wall.
45 ACP penetrated also penetrated all three walls, as did 9MM, and exited the third wall
The buckshot also showed some penetration through the third wall, but the spread was widened to the point where much of the buckshot didn't even hit the wall, and there was a significant amount of spread between each piece that did.
At the end of the day, its still your personal choice, but a 1250-2500% greater allowed margin of aiming error, and a lower chance of accidental injury to inhabitants was enough for me to go with the shotgun as my weapon of choice for home invasion.
but hey.... What do us uneducated mall ninjas know? [M2]
I'm still waiting for someone to shoot through some walls and have ballistic gel behind it. I can throw a baseball through drywall (and I throw like a damn girl) but that doesn't mean it'd kill anyone on the other side.
I'm still waiting for someone to shoot through some walls and have ballistic gel behind it. I can throw a baseball through drywall (and I throw like a damn girl) but that doesn't mean it'd kill anyone on the other side.
Yay! Co-AR15 Forum get together! Sign up list below.
Wall/Ballistics Evaluation Volunteer sign up:
Ammo (9mm, .45ACP, 5.56/.223, 12ga) -
Wall (drywall, 2x4s, nailgun, insulation) -
Guns -
Ice Cold Beverages -
Range -
Calculaters, ballistics thingys to measure crap -
Other stuff to blow up -
Sarcasim, yes.
As long as the perp ends up dead, use whatever you have access too, even a baseball bat!
iamhunter
01-29-2010, 16:24
I'm still waiting for someone to shoot through some walls and have ballistic gel behind it. I can throw a baseball through drywall (and I throw like a damn girl) but that doesn't mean it'd kill anyone on the other side.
A bullet doesn't quite take the same velocity penalities as a baseball bat, but I understand your point.
The point I was making is that my decision and preferences are educated ones,
not the ramblings of a "mall ninja"
I have found a full auto airsoft gun to be the safest way, with enough direct pellet hits to the temple, the perp would more than likely suffer life long migraine headaches and I don't have to worry about hurting my drywall, let alone the paint or texturing
[ROFL2][ROFL3][LOL]
So it actually killed the guy?
Yes, there was nothing that could be done. Multiple organ failure due to the perforations and the shockwave from each projectile and the uncontrolable loss of blood (can't plug that many holes in a 6-7" area compared to a few from a rifle/handgun). Only a handful of the pellets passed competely through, no marks in the drywall behind him.
In another case a suspect was shot at <10ft with OO Buck. Doc removed 9 pellets from him & he was discharged from the hospital hours later.
Where was he shot? (the buckshot guy)
Despite those two cases, it is still ridiculous to assume that bird shot is more effective than buckshot. I've seen the mug shots of a guy that took a load of birdshot to the face. He obviously lived. I wish I could find the shots.
iamhunter
01-29-2010, 16:42
Where was he shot? (the buckshot guy)
Despite those two cases, it is still ridiculous to assume that bird shot is more effective than buckshot. I've seen the mug shots of a guy that took a load of birdshot to the face. He obviously lived. I wish I could find the shots.
I do recall an article about a little girl (12ish) who was home alone when two perps broke into her house.
She was a competition trap shooter and kill them both.
Can't remember what kind of shot she was using though....
There were a couple of deaths in Britain from air rifles as well. Little kid got shot in the chest and died. That doesn't mean I'm going to use my Daisy for home defense though. (especially since I'd have to go out and buy one first)
buckshot to the face:
http://www.jtf.org/america/iii.12132005.black.crime.tookie.williams.victim.fa ce.small.jpg
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://s.buzzfed.com/static/imagebuzz/web02/2009/5/6/21/woman-survives-shotgun-blast-to-the-face-gets-new-1428-1241659123-0.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.buzzfeed.com/portiacarlisle/woman-survives-shotgun-blast-to-the-face-gets-new-6xf&usg=__vqhykthyxMEE0qiOXCw0C7JEHAQ=&h=313&w=400&sz=56&hl=en&start=7&tbnid=FWmHyjqkGJ-xmM:&tbnh=97&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dshotgun%2Bface%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26 sa%3DG
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/april2004/images/research2_11.jpg
we all know this one:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://staging.michaelmoore.com/_images/splash/keepsakeremains.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latest-news/mishap-on-a-texas-ranch&usg=__3bBhZhwsr16-IxS1MmFMwz7LpB4=&h=415&w=300&sz=21&hl=en&start=16&tbnid=9Zr05b9aW6HkhM:&tbnh=125&tbnw=90&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbirdshot%2Bface%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/april2004/images/research2_10.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php%3Fp%3D5653326&usg=__up4IankuLtLIDUqDffiv-r-5OBM=&h=352&w=400&sz=58&hl=en&start=39&tbnid=zPvXivgEd6qV3M:&tbnh=109&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbirdshot%2Bface%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20 %26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D20
http://www.pathguy.com/lectures/shotgun_wound_to_abdomen.jpg
great test using gelatin
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/image1762.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php%3Ft%3D414486&usg=__3bLoa8LNfY1AgJQpHdf6mMVqnUo=&h=699&w=1231&sz=116&hl=en&start=13&tbnid=eBgGTx2Rxjmk_M:&tbnh=85&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbirdshot%2Bface%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den
Interesting, thanks for posting those.
*Except for that StormFront one. I always forget that is the nazi site.
Circuits
01-29-2010, 17:00
My primary home defense TOE:
Daewoo DR200 (folder) 2x30+1, and Beretta 92 with 2x15+1
High Standard K120 12ga pump 5+1
Ruger P85 MkIIR 2x15+1
post-sample M16 with 2 bandos (2x4x30) is my "bugout" rifle.
Interesting, thanks for posting those.
*Except for that StormFront one. I always forget that is the nazi site.
I just googled it, I didn't look where they were at, but yeah I see that is a nazi site now...just like Dick Swan from ARMS
I've seen the results (first hand)of an intruder shot with #6 shot at 37 feet. It took the doc hours to remove the 142 pellets from the body since the shock from the multiple wound channels damaged the internal organs to the point where they were almost liquid. Remember, it's not the bullet that causes most of the damage in a gunshot, but rather the over/under pressure to the air filled cavities in the body that kills somone.
Yes, there was nothing that could be done. Multiple organ failure due to the perforations and the shockwave from each projectile and the uncontrolable loss of blood (can't plug that many holes in a 6-7" area compared to a few from a rifle/handgun). Only a handful of the pellets passed competely through, no marks in the drywall behind him.
In another case a suspect was shot at <10ft with OO Buck. Doc removed 9 pellets from him & he was discharged from the hospital hours later.
That's just complete bull shit.
Cameron
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/dangerroom/2010/01/gunshow_6b.jpg
Later this year, you will be able to buy rubber bullets for home defense. Lightfield has been selling these projectiles (http://www.lightfieldlesslethal.com/) to law enforcement agencies and wildlife officials for years. Each round is filled with a soft projectile that resembles a koosh ball. They look like toys, because they’re made by a Chinese toy factory. The best thing about them is that they aren’t likely to kill someone even if they are fired at point blank range. They’re so soft that they’re almost incapable of penetrating the body.
Read More http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/01/high-tech-guns-digital-revolvers-koosh-bullets-and-triple-tasers/6/#ixzz0e35WtSJj
In my mind, shooting a projectile that won't kill someone means you shouldn't be using a gun at all.
i have my 1911 next to me under the mattress and my .357mag in the drawer, 12g in my closet with slugs, you never know the zombies could be the ones trying to get in hahaha hopefully i have enough ammo
That's just complete bull shit.
Cameron
PM sent....please do your homework before talking...
Unless you are getting attacked by bats or are in a Hitchcock film.
Bailey Guns
01-29-2010, 19:29
That's just complete bull shit.
Cameron
Straight and to the point. I like it.
Yes, there was nothing that could be done. Multiple organ failure due to the perforations and the shockwave from each projectile and the uncontrolable loss of blood (can't plug that many holes in a 6-7" area compared to a few from a rifle/handgun). Only a handful of the pellets passed competely through, no marks in the drywall behind him.
Gee, that's just too bad. How big was this guy, was he just a typical skinny thug?
Danceswithwires
01-29-2010, 20:06
Just need to figure out where to mount the 1911
http://www.geocities.jp/ar_itiban/AR-15/m4masker.jpg
Yes I am J/K
1911 primary
Bailey Guns
01-29-2010, 20:13
See, I thought this was a forum of like-minded enthusiasts who could have intelligent, civilized discussion. But I guess attacking people's opinions and calling them "Mall Ninjas" is a better way to promote community.
Obviously I didn't think that a knowledgeable gunman would take my claim as shooting in the "general direction" at face value. What I really meant is you can afford to be LESS PRECISE with your aim (which is a common occurence under stress)
But since you seem to more of a facts oriented guy, let's present some of those.
At a distance of 5 feet or under, a 18" barreled 12 gauge shot gun (using 00 buckshot) will provide a 2" spread, carrying the wadding into the wound with the pellets, and creating a solid 2" hole.
As distance increases to 10 feet, your looking at a 4" hole,
at distances greater than 20 feet, you no longer had a solid hole and instead have a spread of pellets 9"-12", creating a still incapacitating and quite probably fatal injury, and no chance of wall penetration.
So, just using straight statistics, as compared to .223
@ <5 feet, you have a 450% greater allowed margin of aiming error
@ <10 feet this increases to 900%
and @ >20 feet this increases to 2500%
As compared to .45 ACP these numbers are 225%, 450%, and 1250% respectively.
If you would like to reproduce these numbers on your own to test for accuracy,
Now you may argue that these percentages represent only inches in real life, but when shot placement counts, those inches could make the difference between life or death.
And as for penetration, I've actually run my own tests (based on an article I read).
Using leftover drywall from a remodel I did (fully intact) I simulated walls by connecting two pieces of drywall to 2x4 studs and stuffing the insides iwth left over insulation material.
I set up three walls at 10 foot intervals, and started shooting.
Both Hornady TAP 55 grain and 60 grain (common "self defense" rounds)
Penetrated all three simuated walls, although some of the 60 grain bullets had begun to fragment by the third wall.
45 ACP penetrated also penetrated all three walls, as did 9MM, and exited the third wall
The buckshot also showed some penetration through the third wall, but the spread was widened to the point where much of the buckshot didn't even hit the wall, and there was a significant amount of spread between each piece that did.
At the end of the day, its still your personal choice, but a 1250-2500% greater allowed margin of aiming error, and a lower chance of accidental injury to inhabitants was enough for me to go with the shotgun as my weapon of choice for home invasion.
but hey.... What do us uneducated mall ninjas know? [M2]
Since we're just trying to be "LESS PRECISE" I won't even bother getting into things like "variables", "generalizations" and "controls".
SSChameleon
01-29-2010, 20:37
I had a drink or two after work and I would like to stir the pot a little in regard to the whole buckshot vs. birdshot thing.
I have heard stories (that means I have no way to prove or substantiate the following claim) that home invaders would wear the tread of old tires cut into a vest to stop birdshot when they would break into a home. I'm not sure I would trust my home defense to a cartridge that could be overcome with such a simple device.
On the other hand, I have tried 'ghetto slugs' which would not work in a pump action, but when shooting a break action shottie you cut around the plastic of a shot shell just above the bottom of the wad so when you shoot the wad and plastic part of the shell come out. This is both stupid and dangerous but I've seen what it can do to corrugated steel and it puts a nice hole in it at 15 feet.
I think you all have it wrong on shotguns and which shell is best.
What you guys really need is mini grenades in a 12 gauge shell with cyanide coated shrapnel.
I think it would do the trick[Coffee]
I still can't believe you guys actually have GUNS! How.. horrible
Agreed.
In watching a LOT of TV cops shows I have noticed a really effective procedure to ensure your safety...
Enter house, check behind one door and if a ninja does not kick your ass into next week, yell "CLEAR" and you will be fine. I have never seen anyone killed, attacked or even spat at after yelling "CLEAR". Not sure why it works, but it sure seems to be 100% reliable!
Try it, you will feel so much better. I do this everytime I go into the office, house, or public restroom.
No, heavier but not fat. approx 5'11"-6' 235lbs
He must have worn his heart on his sleeve. ;)
DD977GM2
01-29-2010, 22:05
Closest I can to a bullshit flag on the birdshot and shock wave theory. [Cheer]
I have seen those of middle easetern decent keep coming after 5 or 6 9mm rounds through them. Granted diffrent circumstances then a home invasion, just saying.
Bailey Guns
01-29-2010, 22:24
http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/images/smilies/BS-Flag.gif
Best I could do on short notice.
DD977GM2
01-29-2010, 22:27
Smart ASS !!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/images/smilies/BS-Flag.gif
Best I could do on short notice.
Bailey Guns
01-29-2010, 22:28
http://www.alldeaf.com/images/smilies/bsflag.gif
Here's a better one.
DD977GM2
01-29-2010, 22:29
Huge Smast ASS!!!! I can do it on other boards, Im puter retard!!
http://www.alldeaf.com/images/smilies/bsflag.gif
Here's a better one.
Bailey Guns
01-29-2010, 22:29
Smart ASS !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, I know. There's prolly one for that, too!
I've also had to deliver 5-6 5.56 rounds through a 110 lb hadji to stop one. Your opinion does not change fact. My experiences are true whether you believe them or not. Unless you have MD after your name, do some homework before throwing the BS flag.
PM sent....please do your homework before talking...
The complete crap you wrote is ridiculous on it's face and flies counter to the plethora on information regarding small arms wounding factors.
I've seen the results (first hand)of an intruder shot with #6 shot at 37 feet. It took the doc hours to remove the 142 pellets from the body since the shock from the multiple wound channels damaged the internal organs to the point where they were almost liquid.
You are claiming that some mythical "shock" from a #6 birdshot liquefied the internal organs of a human being. That is complete crap. I have shot game with birdshot at approx 40 feet and have absolutely never seen liquefied internal organs.
from "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness"
Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."
Absent CNS damage, circulatory system collapse from severe disruption of the vital organs and blood vessels in the torso is the only other reliable method of physiological incapacitation from small arms. If the CNS is uninjured, physiological incapacitation is delayed until blood loss is sufficient to deprive the brain of oxygen. Multiple hits may be needed before an individual is physiologically incapacitated. An individual wounded in any area of the body other than the CNS may physiologically be able to continue their actions for a short period of time, even with non-survivable injuries. In a 1992 IWBA Journal paper, Dr. Ken Newgard wrote the following about how blood loss effects incapacitation:
“A 70 kg male has a cardiac output of around 5.5 liters per minute. His blood volume is about 4200 cc. Assuming that his cardiac output can double under stress, his aortic blood flow can reach 11 Liters per minute. If this male had his thoracic aorta totally severed, it would take him 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his total blood volume. This is the minimum amount of time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury. A marginally trained person can fire at a rate of two shots per second. In 4.6 seconds there could easily be 9 shots of return fire before the assailant’s activity is neutralized. Note this analysis does not account for oxygen contained in the blood already perusing the brain that will keep the brain functioning for an even longer period of time.”
Man! I just don’t see that miniscule #6 birdshot pellets have the mass and the “shock” to liquefy internal organs!!
Remember, it's not the bullet that causes most of the damage in a gunshot, but rather the over/under pressure to the air filled cavities in the body that kills somone.
Another point that absolutely is counter to all the evidence of small arms wounding.
All projectiles that penetrate the body can only disrupt tissue by these two wounding mechanisms: the localized crushing of tissue in the bullet's path and the transient stretching of tissue adjacent to the wound track. Projectile wounds differ in the amount and location of crushed and stretched tissue. The relative contribution by each of these mechanisms to any wound depends on the physical characteristics of the projectile, its size, weight, shape, construction, and velocity, penetration depth and the type of tissue with which the projectile interacts.
If you are a small arms professional, and a subject matter expert when it comes to modern small arms like you said to me in your PM then post your credentials and the documented facts that support your ludicrous claims. You state absolutely silly things like birdshot causing shock that liquefies internal organs I am going to call you on it. Then in the PM to me you say:
If you wish to challenge my credentials, then you should do your research first. I am a firearms, explosives, and medical instructor for Military and LE. Our company is staffed by former military special operations and LE operators, and the ONLY civilian company authorized to conduct Live Tissue Training (goat lab from SF course).
Consider yourself challenged get your credentials posted up here ASAP, and show me the data and evidence where birdshot is more effective at incapacitating a human than 00 buckshot, I am especially interested in seeing the evidence of birdshot causing this amazing internal organ liquefying shock!!
Cameron
I've also had to deliver 5-6 5.56 rounds through a 110 lb hadji to stop one. Your opinion does not change fact. My experiences are true whether you believe them or not. Unless you have MD after your name, do some homework before throwing the BS flag.
people can die from bee stings too but I am not loading my shotgun up with bee stingers! The human body is extremely resiliant and yet fragile at the same time. Some men can live through a 50rds of small arms fire and some men take a minor hit to the brain box(technical term) and die. But at the end of the day I think as far as stopping power,lethallity buckshot is far and beyond birdshot. I dont want my intruder dieing at the ER I want them dead before they hit the ground, but I am just a humane guy like that.
Carey H. MD
HA! I have an MD after my name!
The complete crap you wrote is ridiculous on it's face and flies counter to the plethora on information regarding small arms wounding factors.
You are claiming that some mythical "shock" from a #6 birdshot liquefied the internal organs of a human being. That is complete crap. I have shot game with birdshot at approx 40 feet and have absolutely never seen liquefied internal organs.
Man! I just don’t see that miniscule #6 birdshot pellets have the mass and the “shock” to liquefy internal organs!!
Another point that absolutely is counter to all the evidence of small arms wounding.
If you are a small arms professional, and a subject matter expert when it comes to modern small arms like you said to me in your PM then post your credentials and the documented facts that support your ludicrous claims. You state absolutely silly things like birdshot causing shock that liquefies internal organs I am going to call you on it. Then in the PM to me you say:
Consider yourself challenged get your credentials posted up here ASAP, and show my the data and evidence where birdshot is more effective at incapacitating a human than 00 buckshot, I am especially interested in seeming the evidence of birdshot causing this amazing internal organ liquefying shock.
Cameron
uber pownage
The reality is that under the right circumstances bird shot can be an effective at stopping a human aggressor, so it buck shot and slugs too. Handguns trump harsh language, shotguns trump handguns and there is a reason troops are all issued rifles rather than shotguns loaded with #6 bird shot.
This is 2010 guys if you consider a firearm as part of your personal security then having a basic understanding of internal, external and terminal ballistics makes a lot of sense. It is disappointing to see people still bandying about "shock" theories and passing around completely erroneous information, especially if they pass themselves off as a "professional" or an "expert". Next thing you know someone will be advocating "blended metal" bullets and discussing "hydrostatic shock".
Cameron
While I am in agreement with you Cameron, for the record, he never claimed that bird shot was superior to buck shot, only that it penetrated walls less and could still kill a person. Like I said though, I still have a pretty hard time believing that bird shot from 37 feet away is liquidizing anything more than a soda.
Fentonite
01-29-2010, 23:18
I'm with Cameron. This one doesn't take a rocket scientist.
That's just complete bull shit.
Cameron
Remember guys to use LEAD bird shot so they can die a slow death of lead poisoning and you wont have too much drywall to repair[Swim]
Bailey Guns
01-29-2010, 23:33
I've also had to deliver 5-6 5.56 rounds through a 110 lb hadji to stop one. Your opinion does not change fact. My experiences are true whether you believe them or not. Unless you have MD after your name, do some homework before throwing the BS flag.
Although Cameron beat me to it, and his responses were right on the money, I'm going to post this anyway.
This is the link to "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness", one of the articles from which Cameron posted excerpts. It was written in 1989 by FBI Special Agent Urey W Patrick. Most of the information in the article comes from Martin Fackler, MD...probably the most preeminent wound ballistics researcher in the world.
So, I don't have "MD" after my name but the guy who supplied the research for this does. And, as was shown in Cameron's post, the effects of shock as a wounding factor are a myth.
This is 16 pages but they're short pages and it's a quick read:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
There's plenty more supporting information in Dr Fackler's various books and the website www.firearmstactical.com (http://www.firearmstactical.com) much of which is authored by Dr Gary K Roberts, another wound ballistics researcher with the IWBA.
I'm guessing Fackler and Roberts are a slightly better source than the latest issue of Guns and Ammo magazine.
While I am in agreement with you Cameron, for the record, he never claimed that bird shot was superior to buck shot, only that it penetrated walls less and could still kill a person. Like I said though, I still have a pretty hard time believing that bird shot from 37 feet away is liquidizing anything more than a soda.
Maybe the words bull shit were too harsh, but this guys anecdote that a guy get's shot with birdshot and experiences "Multiple organ failure due to the perforations and the shockwave from each projectile" and then adds "the shock from the multiple wound channels damaged the internal organs to the point where they were almost liquid." couple that with his story that a guy gets shot at 10 feet with buck shot and is discharged hours later. It was pretty clear where he was going.
Then saying stuff like, "Remember, it's not the bullet that causes most of the damage in a gunshot, but rather the over/under pressure to the air filled cavities in the body that kills somone.
What the hell is that?
there are only 2 ways to stops someone with a gun:
1. "psychologically incapacitated" They figure it is best to stop whether you shoot them or not.
2. "physiological damage" Physiologically, immediate incapacitation or death can only occur when the brain or upper spinal cord is damaged or destroyed, or if the CNS is uninjured, physiological incapacitation is delayed until blood loss is sufficient to deprive the brain of oxygen, this called hypovolemic shock.
Where is this information about "the over/under pressure to the air filled cavities in the body that kills somone."?
I mean seriously you say some silly ass shit like that on a public forum, especially if you claim to be: "I am a firearms, explosives, and medical instructor for Military and LE. Our company is staffed by former military special operations and LE operators, and the ONLY civilian company authorized to conduct Live Tissue Training (goat lab from SF course)."
I'm sorry man, but when I see tomfoolery like that I find it hard not to call some one on it.
20 years ago it was hard to get good information about terminal ballistics, but there is a lot of good information out there that can be easily found and digested if you have basic reading skills. I remember the days of ".357Mag can penetrate an engine block", "hydrostatic shock" "a shotgun will blow a man clear across the room" "a hit in the hand with a .45ACP will kill a man coz of the shock."
Man, those days are gone. We don't need those types of myths perpetuated on a quality forum like Colorado AR-15 Shooters.
Cameron
MichiganMilitia
01-30-2010, 01:20
Home defense?
Well....
If they get past the moat:
First I feed them one of these from my mossy 500:http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/9rds-12-gauge-flame-thrower-ammo/cName/12-gauge-specialtyexotic
If that doesn't stop them or light them on fire, then I load up a few of these: http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/3rds-12-gauge-oc-tear-gas-ammo/cName/12-gauge-lessthanlethal
If they insist on coming indoors, I'll give them 8 loads of this: http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/10rds-12-gauge-centurion-le-2-34-multidefense-buck/cName/12-gauge-buckshot
And if that doesn't do the job, then I'll grab my AR and feed them an unlimited supply of this: http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/20rds-223-starburst-incendiary-ammo
If the BG is still coming at me after all that, I'll just bend over and take whatever he has to offer. [Weight]
Soooooo, pretty much if atg goes down you're SOL?
Browning Hi Power, loaded with HPs, cocked & locked, in my easy to access closet safe.
20 years ago it was hard to get good information about terminal ballistics, but there is a lot of good information out there that can be easily found and digested if you have basic reading skills. I remember the days of ".357Mag can penetrate an engine block", "hydrostatic shock" "a shotgun will blow a man clear across the room" "a hit in the hand with a .45ACP will kill a man coz of the shock."
Man, those days are gone. We don't need those types of myths perpetuated on a quality forum like Colorado AR-15 Shooters.
Cameron
Thats like the 32-20wcf they claimed it would cut a man in half. lol
Regarding shotgun wounding:
1 ounce of shot at a given velocity will have a given amount of kinetic energy. Birdshot will tend to dissipate more of that energy in the bad guy at 15 feet than buckshot,simply because there is less chance of the pellets exiting with any remaining energy, because the bird shot has a larger frontal area. But if you hit him in the chest, both are likely to kill him dead in very short order.The same is true of a handgun(of adequate caliber), or rifle. That same differential in surface area at impact reduces both the effectiveness on hardened targets, and the overpenetration risk in the event of a miss when using smaller shot. IMO (worth exactly what you're paying for it), 7 shot makes more sense in a home defense situation than 00 buckshot, simply because of the reduced distances involved. As far as shotgun vs. handgun, a 1 oz standard 12 guage load packs about 5 times as much energy at the muzzle as a 230gr .45 acp load. Add to that the longer sight radius, and for *most* folks, a shotgun is a more effective weapon under stress. Granted, some here have trained extensively with their handguns, and their mileage may vary.
You are corrrrect in that buckshot is more effective than birdshot (heavier projectile at higher speeds). I have never said otherwise. I advocate birdshot as it does not OVERPENETRATE. The studies and tests are there. Thanks for the link to the 20 year old medical info. I hope you realize that medicine has changed over the years! When doing your research, please look at the date and find something in this century! Perhaps take a class in terminal ballistics. Why do you think that when ballistic gelatin is shot the hole isn't the exact size of the bullet? This is common sense stuff here. If you have not even seen a gun shot wound, let alone tried to fix one, then spend more time educating yourself instead of wasting time arguing.
TriggerHappy
01-30-2010, 12:13
Benelli M4 or Rem 870, depends on the room, w/ tac lights and ext tubes alternating slug, double-odd. Also the 1911 with social rounds in condition 1. It sucks when you are killed with your own gun..
The reality is that under the right circumstances bird shot can be an effective at stopping a human aggressor, so it buck shot and slugs too. Handguns trump harsh language, shotguns trump handguns and there is a reason troops are all issued rifles rather than shotguns loaded with #6 bird shot.
This is 2010 guys if you consider a firearm as part of your personal security then having a basic understanding of internal, external and terminal ballistics makes a lot of sense. It is disappointing to see people still bandying about "shock" theories and passing around completely erroneous information, especially if they pass themselves off as a "professional" or an "expert". Next thing you know someone will be advocating "blended metal" bullets and discussing "hydrostatic shock".
Cameron
Cameron, while you are 90% correct, Hydrostatic shock is a real physical principle and existed long before it was injected into the wound theory discussion. I was totally with you until you made that one mistake.
Here is a recent use in a pure scientific sense (line 99): http://www.shock.eps.harvard.edu/preprints/louzada%20et%20al%20pyrrhotite%20epsl%20manuscript %20preprint.pdf
Most people dismissing hydrostatic shock use this: http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html which frankly is mostly correct, except his highly ignorant diatribe on hydrostatic shock. The Wiki Hydrostatic shock definition explains some of the contrasting theories: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock
With handguns (vast majority) and shotguns, the creation of a shock wave that is capable of producing any significant effect to a human is largely impossible. They rely principally on air in and blood out. Disrupt the partial pressure balance of air or drop the blood pressure fast enough and humans go down, while not immediately dead. The Federal marketing of the "Hydroshock" did more damage to the understanding of the term "Hydrostatic" than good.
I have personally re-researched these theories and spoken with Marshall, Fackler and many of the foremost medical researchers in this area as well. In a professional capacity, as well as studying projectile wounds, I have worked on several cases where "Hydrostatic Shock" was the cause of death. In an explosion, chemical or physical, the creation of a 4 psi pressure wave to the front face of a human body is the 50% fataility threshold. I worked an explosion where a deceased woman had no impact trauma, no burns, but yet died. The damage was on a cellular level where the pressure wave caused rupture of capilaries and cell walls to such a degree that the blood pressure dropped so low she basically bleed out "microscopically." While this is extremely rare with slug impacts below about 2200 fps (and the associated mass and frontal area to set up a significant shock wave in the tissue), there are cases where brain trauma was observed during autopsy and related to chest cavity handgun bullet impacts.
A lot of the 20 plus year wound theories have gross inaccuracies, including hydrostatic shcok. However, just because ignorant non-scientists proferred explanation of theories that could not be scientifically supported does not mean the theories themselves are wrong, just their explanations thereof.
However, I do agree with you on the basic premise of BS related to hydrostatic shock and the other issues you called out with this one exception: When it comes to slugs with suficient volume and velocity, hydrostatic shock is one component of incapacitation of a living target that may have an effect whether it be primary, secondary or even tertiary.
FortyTwo
01-30-2010, 12:54
Wireless phone in every room with 911 on speed dial. Analog PoTS backup in case they jam the wireless.
SA Friday
01-30-2010, 13:18
Cameron, while you are 90% correct, Hydrostatic shock is a real physical principle and existed long before it was injected into the wound theory discussion. I was totally with you until you made that one mistake.
Here is a recent use in a pure scientific sense (line 99): http://www.shock.eps.harvard.edu/preprints/louzada%20et%20al%20pyrrhotite%20epsl%20manuscript %20preprint.pdf
Most people dismissing hydrostatic shock use this: http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html which frankly is mostly correct, except his highly ignorant diatribe on hydrostatic shock. The Wiki Hydrostatic shock definition explains some of the contrasting theories: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock
With handguns (vast majority) and shotguns, the creation of a shock wave that is capable of producing any significant effect to a human is largely impossible. They rely principally on air in and blood out. Disrupt the partial pressure balance of air or drop the blood pressure fast enough and humans go down, while not immediately dead. The Federal marketing of the "Hydroshock" did more damage to the understanding of the term "Hydrostatic" than good.
I have personally re-researched these theories and spoken with Marshall, Fackler and many of the foremost medical researchers in this area as well. In a professional capacity, as well as studying projectile wounds, I have worked on several cases where "Hydrostatic Shock" was the cause of death. In an explosion, chemical or physical, the creation of a 4 psi pressure wave to the front face of a human body is the 50% fataility threshold. I worked an explosion where a deceased woman had no impact trauma, no burns, but yet died. The damage was on a cellular level where the pressure wave caused rupture of capilaries and cell walls to such a degree that the blood pressure dropped so low she basically bleed out "microscopically." While this is extremely rare with slug impacts below about 2200 fps (and the associated mass and frontal area to set up a significant shock wave in the tissue), there are cases where brain trauma was observed during autopsy and related to chest cavity handgun bullet impacts.
A lot of the 20 plus year wound theories have gross inaccuracies, including hydrostatic shcok. However, just because ignorant non-scientists proferred explanation of theories that could not be scientifically supported does not mean the theories themselves are wrong, just their explanations thereof.
However, I do agree with you on the basic premise of BS related to hydrostatic shock and the other issues you called out with this one exception: When it comes to slugs with suficient volume and velocity, hydrostatic shock is one component of incapacitation of a living target that may have an effect whether it be primary, secondary or even tertiary.
Mark doesn't have MD after his name. He just figures out what everyone else can't for a living. His info is reputable based on education background and years of experience. Mark can explain more if he wants. It's not my place to say.
I thought that Cameron did a pretty good job specifying that everything he was talking about was in reference to small arms only.
Great-Kazoo
01-30-2010, 14:27
Mark doesn't have MD after his name. He just figures out what everyone else can't for a living. His info is reputable based on education background and years of experience. Mark can explain more if he wants. It's not my place to say.
Big + 1 on MarkCo
Oh man! I don't know how I missed Coloccw's last comment but it is a laugh riot.
Bailey Guns
01-30-2010, 16:01
There comes a time when, "operator" or not, some people just aren't worth dealing with IMO. I've reached it with him.
68Charger
01-30-2010, 17:33
Wow- get busy for a day, and a thread turns into this?
I don't have an MD after my name- and I reject the idea that you have to have that title to understand physics... I've met MD's that couldn't figure out how to shut of a water main after they broke off a valve (funny story)
when even #8 shot exits a muzzle, it is in one "clump"- at that point, it acts very much like a semi-frangible slug, at supersonic speeds... and is very capable of inducing shockwaves, and contains in excess of 2000 Ft-Lb of energy... at short range, I've seen #8 shot make a single 1" ragged hole in 3/4" plywood..
at ranges of less than 10 feet, you could probably load a shotgun with Q-tips, and the muzzle energy would be enough to kill something.. (sounds like something I would try, I've got some shotshells, a reloader- just need to find some appropriate wads & try Q-Tips) I promise I'll post pics if I do it..
[Coffee]
once the pellets start to separate (which occurs at a nebulous range, depending on load, barrel, choke, etc), then you wind up with pellets that are about 1 grain each- even at 1100 fps, you're looking at 3 ft/Lbs of energy per pellet (there are ~410 of them in a 1oz load).. about the same as a standard steel BB fired from a BB gun at 500 fps... hardly lethal
the problem with bird shot is NOT that it CAN'T be lethal, but that the conditions have to be right for it to be... There's a reason they call it BIRD shot... I'll admit it's good at NOT overpenetrating- but it's also bad at penetrating when you want it to...
Cameron, while you are 90% correct, Hydrostatic shock is a real physical principle and existed long before it was injected into the wound theory discussion. I was totally with you until you made that one mistake.
I was referring to the erroneous belief that "a .45 slug will kill someone because of the massive hydrostatic shock".
Cameron
I was referring to the erroneous belief that "a .45 slug will kill someone because of the massive hydrostatic shock".
Cameron
I guess we do agree then. [Beer]
I keep an old 18" 870 loaded with 000 in the closet in cruiser ready. Wifey knew enough to grab that when the Texas 7 was spotted (and apprehended) in the neighborhood when we lived up in Woodland Park. I have a butt-stock cuff with 3 slugs and 3 00 buck for follow-up shots. I'm not into all the discussion about wound channels and hydrostatic shock, but my thoughts are a faceful of triple-aught will ruin one's day.
Wireless phone in every room with 911 on speed dial. Analog PoTS backup in case they jam the wireless.
42, you've been a member of this forum for 8 months, and this is your first post!?
I have to say you are no doubt safe and secure with your SHTF strategy. Perhaps you might want to further reduce your risk, and leave your wallet out on the front porch at night so that no one gets hurt.
[NoEvil]
42, you've been a member of this forum for 8 months, and this is your first post!?
I have to say you are no doubt safe and secure with your SHTF strategy. Perhaps you might want to further reduce your risk, and leave your wallet out on the front porch at night so that no one gets hurt.
[NoEvil]
And you have 143 post and for some reason feel obliged to talk shit and miss sarcasm?
------------------
To our resident ballistics experts... I've said it once and I'll say it 100 more times, I will kill you just as dead with a .22 as I would a .45. It isn't about caliber, its about shot placement girls.
Sure, a shotty gives you a bit more forgiving POI, but it also means you have a greater chance for unaccounted for fragments.
I'm not going to piss and moan like some about penetration or caliber, much of what has been espoused here is anecdotal at best, far from factual and down right negligent at worst.
I'll rely on my real world experience. I too have used 5.56 to end the potential threat of another human to my existence. All of those encounters required a varying number of shots, under varying environmental conditions, none of which was in doors. What I have is 18 years of muscle memory and training with my chosen home defense weapon, the 5.56 throwing AR-15. It is the best weapon I could assemble and afford, equipped with the best optic, light, functional ergonomic accessories and ammunition available to me. I can and am willing to use it to defend my family, property and under other legal circumstances as needed.
That is what I know, that is what cannot be disputed.
Defend your home and family with whatever you can, but by all that is holy and right in this life, train to do so. Train more than you do now, because no matter what you are doing now, know in your heart and mind, that it is NEVER enough.
Stay safe girls
42, you've been a member of this forum for 8 months, and this is your first post!?
I have to say you are no doubt safe and secure with your SHTF strategy. Perhaps you might want to further reduce your risk, and leave your wallet out on the front porch at night so that no one gets hurt.
[NoEvil]
And you have 143 post and for some reason feel obliged to talk shit and miss sarcasm?
Fuckin' 08's. [Tooth]
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.