The power/solar/batteries/generator thread

[jerrymrc]

This is the thread for all things power related. In time I can show you how to build your own solar panels. How to hook up and use a solar powered system, Why you need to have a bunch of rechargeable batteries and why unless you are at your final location that a generator may not be your best friend. Just putting this out there now for the people here to think about. ;)

[gnihcraes]

Recently I went to use a AGM battery I had and it was dead, cracked and not useable, so I went to my backup 2nd battery, dead too. dang it. So much for having those batteries for "just in case", guess I'll have to buy some new ones...

Being a Amateur Radio Operator, I've seen and used some nice generators, battery systems and solar setups for the field day competitions each summer.

This will be an interesting thread to see what comes of it.... I'll stand by...

[KevDen2005]

I would definitely be interested in learning/seeing solar power systems.

[jerrymrc]

I also have planned a "communications" thread that I expect your input on...... Part of what I have planned is a sustainable set up. There are just a lot of pieces to the puzzle. A lot of what I have done over the years is work for a manageable set up that does not cost an arm and a leg.

The generator is a great thing and I do have one. but if you rely on it you better have the means to support it and that is my rub. Solar is a very workable solution here in CO.

[68Charger]

Ever been in a telecom companies facility? they use -48v DC to power all the telecommunications gear... they use LARGE lead-acid batteries.. they're designed for this application, as well as ease of service..

I'd love to find a place to get these surplus... or build them..

I have a old Hercules multi-fuel diesel I picked up cheap (and another that belongs to my father-in-law), I plan to couple each of these to a generator head, and I can have a multi-fuel generator... they may be weak for pushing a heavy 6x6, but they're good for up to 50kW of generator (waay overkill) would like to get a 6-pole gen head, to run at 1200rpm...

[jerrymrc]

Ever been in a telecom companies facility? they use -48v DC to power all the telecommunications gear... they use LARGE lead-acid batteries.. they're designed for this application, as well as ease of service..

I'd love to find a place to get these surplus... or build them..

I have a old Hercules multi-fuel diesel I picked up cheap (and another that belongs to my father-in-law), I plan to couple each of these to a generator head, and I can have a multi-fuel generator... they may be weak for pushing a heavy 6x6, but they're good for up to 50kW of generator (waay overkill) would like to get a 6-pole gen head, to run at 1200rpm...

I have been in a few of them. Wife used to work for SI international. Here is my thought process on the issue. You have a home and the power goes out a generator is a great thing.

Your final location is the same one ya live at. A generator and the 500 gal fuel tank are great.
Ya live in the city/suburbs and it is time to leave..... Do ya take 100lbs of solar panels/batteries with an inverter or do ya take the 50lbs generator along with 50lbs of gas?

Do not get me wrong. Generators are great but in the long term the Solar/batteries will win out. just some thoughts to think about.

[68Charger]

Do not get me wrong. Generators are great but in the long term the Solar/batteries will win out. just some thoughts to think about.

Ideally, I'd have a solar/battery setup, but would have generator backup...

relying on the generator solely for power I agree is not cost-effective... but for standby power in the middle of the night...

My other reasoning on a generator is increasing load- if I size my inverter based on load of the house- but not my shop (inverters are expensive)
I fire up the generator when I want to weld, or run a piece of equipment (say a lathe to turn some barrels, or to repair something, or provide a service in exchange for other goods/services).. granted, this is beyond survival mode- and is beyond the needs of the average person

[theGinsue]

What I'm not seeing considered here is portable wind turbines. There is a guy who sets one up in an elk camp near where I hunt every year. The advantage of these is that CO has lots of wind and they work just as well during cloudy days and at night. The biggest problem I have with my camper batteries is they discharge a lot during the night (no light). On particularly cold night I have to keep my heat very low to have any power left by morning (brand new deep cycle batteries too).

I'd like to learn more about how to put together a portable wind turbine. I figure that if I were to combine it with a solar setup I'd be absolutely golden.

[gnihcraes]

I'm not sure that a wind turbine that is portable would generate enough power to keep the heater fan running through the night... worth a try though I guess.

If you google for homemade wind turbines there are some sites I've seen in the past that have all the instructions needed. Usually they are making them out of Chevy one wire alternators...

[68Charger]

I'd like to learn more about how to put together a portable wind turbine. I figure that if I were to combine it with a solar setup I'd be absolutely golden.

You have a great point about night power.. and winter- sun hours diminish, power requirements go up (in general).. I'll point out the disadvantage of noise- not a huge amount with a quality one, but putting them up high enough to where they'll catch the wind will announce your position from a farther distance... doesn't eliminate it, just understand it's issues.

the hardest thing I see about a portable wind turbine is a way to get it out of the boundary layer.. to be able to erect a tower on short order that can take significant side loads is the biggest challenge..

it's been done, tho.. http://www.heightstowers.com/portable_cows.htm

a bit cumbersome, and depending on the topology, you may not need that much height to get an advantage- so maybe it could be scaled down to do 30-40ft

[Irving]

I've noticed that every new phone I get has better and better battery life, and seems to take less and less time to charge. Would it be difficult to retrofit a cell battery to power some led flashlight head?

[68Charger]

I've noticed that every new phone I get has better and better battery life, and seems to take less and less time to charge. Would it be difficult to retrofit a cell battery to power some led flashlight head?

that part is not too difficult- but you have to make sure the voltage of the battery doesn't go below a certain level- so you can't just hook it up & go, there does have to be some thought to it, or the battery won't take a charge again..

also, the recharging is more tricky with Li-Ion batteries.. just make sure the charger you're using is intended for Li-Ion batteries

[Irving]

Well, wouldn't you just set it up to use your cell charger?

I'm interested in what you said about the voltage level. What is the difference between running the battery down till it won't turn on while it is powering a cell phone, or powering a light?

[68Charger]

Well, wouldn't you just set it up to use your cell charger?

I'm interested in what you said about the voltage level. What is the difference between running the battery down till it won't turn on while it is powering a cell phone, or powering a light?

you could certainly use your cell charger-

the minimum voltage has to do with the chemistry of Li-Ion batteries..

a quote from http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm

"Extreme low voltage must also be prevented. The safety circuit is designed to cut off the current path if the battery is inadvertently discharged below 2.50V/cell. At this voltage, most circuits render the battery unserviceable and a recharge on a regular charger is not possible.
There are several safeguards to prevent excessive discharge. The equipment protects the battery by cutting off when the cell reaches 2.7 to 3.0V/cell. Battery manufacturers ship the batteries with a 40% charge to allow some self-discharge during storage. Advanced batteries contain a wake-up feature in which the protection circuit only starts to draw current after the battery has been activated with a brief charge. This allows prolonged storage."

this is a safety feature because:

"If the cells have dwelled at 1.5V/cell and lower for a few days, however, a recharge should be avoided. Copper shunts may have formed inside the cells, leading a partial or total electrical short. The cell becomes unstable. Charging such a battery would cause excessive heat and safety could not be assured. "

so what's the worst that could happen?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeWq6rWzChw

[jerrymrc]

Solar panels. Here is the link for my first ones I did. http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=215773

There have been some minor changes since then. I now place a desiccant at each end and drill a small hole at each end. I then draw a vacuum to make sure the panel is sealed. If no leaks I flood the panel with Nitrogen and seal it back up. This has stopped the fogging issues.

Now you can run the panels on just the board with no gasket/glass but they are a "good weather" only config. Cells are still cheap from the supplier I listed. I have to finish the other 3 panels for the camper. I also have 100W or so for the garage that are still going after 5 years.

Too many projects, too little time.

[jerrymrc]

Let's talk Batteries. Ya need them. Ya need rechargeables. ya need a charger. The cheap Harbor Freight ones are marginal. Let me rephrase that. The NiMh are marginal, the NiCd's are worthless.

Buy or build a solar charger. Buy AAA and AA batteries. If ya need C's and D's buy the tubes to convert the AA ones (and test them). Batteries, batteries, batteries. If your planning on taking this game more than 30 days heed the above paragraph.

Experience has taught me that the duracell ones work and last great. There not cheap but they last and you can have many stored since the life of a rechargeable starts when ya first charge it. Life is 1-2 years once you start charging them.

I keep looking at the eneloop's. I keep hearing both good and bad. For those that may not know here is the scoop on rechargeables. When you charge a NiMh you get 100%. come back in 6 months and it is down to like 60%. The eneloop's will retain 85% after a year.

So this is the deal. Ya charge and ya use. charging a second set to be used within 30 days is OK. If ya want to charge and keep.... I have heard that some people get a short life out of there eneloops. I have none at present.

I keep a good stock of unopened rechargables on hand along with two kinds of chargers.

Just a thought gang. ;)

[Beprepared]

you could certainly use your cell charger-

the minimum voltage has to do with the chemistry of Li-Ion batteries..

a quote from http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm

"Extreme low voltage must also be prevented. The safety circuit is designed to cut off the current path if the battery is inadvertently discharged below 2.50V/cell. At this voltage, most circuits render the battery unserviceable and a recharge on a regular charger is not possible.
There are several safeguards to prevent excessive discharge. The equipment protects the battery by cutting off when the cell reaches 2.7 to 3.0V/cell. Battery manufacturers ship the batteries with a 40% charge to allow some self-discharge during storage. Advanced batteries contain a wake-up feature in which the protection circuit only starts to draw current after the battery has been activated with a brief charge. This allows prolonged storage."

this is a safety feature because:

"If the cells have dwelled at 1.5V/cell and lower for a few days, however, a recharge should be avoided. Copper shunts may have formed inside the cells, leading a partial or total electrical short. The cell becomes unstable. Charging such a battery would cause excessive heat and safety could not be assured. "

so what's the worst that could happen?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeWq6rWzChw

"Extreme low voltage must also be prevented. The safety circuit is designed to cut off the current path if the battery is inadvertently discharged below 2.50V/cell. At this voltage, most circuits render the battery unserviceable and a recharge on a regular charger is not possible.
Interesting about the Li-Ion. With a safety circuit inside, would this leave the battery unusable in the unlikely event of an EMP pulse? Also could used hybrid car battery (gotta be good for something) be used for home needs (If the voltage and charging was right)?

[ronaldrwl]

I would definitely be interested in learning/seeing solar power systems.

I just looked into this. Harbor Freight has a system that sells for around $200 or something. That got me interested. So, my son and I went through the calculations. Under very good conditions it would take 7 years to pay for itself (as I remember).

Very disapointing. I wanted to see if I could run my computers durring the day by solar. It would take thousands of dollars to set up and would never pay for itself.

Bummer

.

[jerrymrc]

I just looked into this. Harbor Freight has a system that sells for around $200 or something. That got me interested. So, my son and I went through the calculations. Under very good conditions it would take 7 years to pay for itself (as I remember).

Very disapointing. I wanted to see if I could run my computers durring the day by solar. It would take thousands of dollars to set up and would never pay for itself.

Bummer

.

I built the first two panels that make 70 watts for just over $100. Add a charge controller for $30..... In my case I run 1/2 the garage off of a 60W panel and the bank of gel cells.

While the solar is not dirt cheap you have to have something to provide power some way.

More thoughts on this. Most people just throw away there UPS when the batteries go bad. These can be used as cheap inverters. I have a couple that I have rescued and use them. One thing you will have to do on most of them is disable the alarm. First pic is the back up for the pellet stove. Rescued 600W UPS with 110Ah of gel attached. Second is the garage power system. Panel is in the window facing south. This is mainly a winter system so all is good. just some thoughts.

[theGinsue]

My best friend bought a 70watt solar panel from a camoer store a few years ago. It does a great job for charging his camper during MOST days. The problem is that the panel alone cost him $800.

This same guy also bought the Harbor Freight $200 setup. If it's the same one, this uses 3 panels that come up to about 50 watts total. They don't work nearly as well as the $800 panel, but you're still saving $600.

Because of this, I jumped on Jerry's idea of building your own solar panels. His plan is SO much cheaper. I had been planning on building a few of these during this winter. Haven't gotten to it yet.

[Beprepared]

Ok, so my Dad has a couple of draft horses. He's been wanting a treadmill for them. To my knowledge their is just one company that makes the historic kind he wants. Athens Enterprise(not on the interweb) they do advertise in Rural Heritage or the Small Farm Journal. So these tread mills are gravity operated(take no power). They also GENERATE power. I horse that already needs/wants exercise can charge a battery bank. There are small animal versions of this made for sheep, goats, and dogs. I believe they start around 2k. A couple of work/herd/sled dogs who desperately want to run 20hrs a day could supplement power needs.

[Bowtie]

The guys from google have developed a power source the size of a parking space that could produce 100kw for a minimum of 10 years. The price is a little steep at $800,000 or $400 a kw. They say they are trying to get the price down to $3000 for a home size unit. Article here
http://www.informationweek.com/news/hardware/data_centers/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=223100606

[Beprepared]

Another solution for a small community.
http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/index.html
$50million
7-10 years of power
20k homes
Its basically a self contained nuclear battery buried and connected to a steam turbine.

rural/military applications hmmmm![Flower]

[offgrid]

WE live 3 miles from utility power. Been living off-grid for 5yrs. Power our home with a wind turbine and PV. Installed the system myself.

Glad to answer any questions regarding wind turbines and PV.

[Hoopty]

I assume the wind turbine and PV setups are all tied together? Did you build the WT yourself or was it purchased? Cost and output of the WT setup?

[offgrid]

Yes, wind turbine and PV is tied together charging the same batteries. The wind turbine I purchased is a Proven WT2.5. It is on a 70' freestanding tower. Picked the the Proven for it's reputation of surviving harsh wind sites. I have a harsh wind site. Last January had a peak gust of 102.6 mph. The turbines peak output is 2800 watts @ 30 mph. Last January with a average wind speed of 15.6 it produced 636 KW hours. The cost, 18K doing all the work myself.

PV consist of 2200 watts of panels.

Between the PV and the wind, it produces more than enough to cover our loads. Also have 12KW propane generator for a backup.

[jerrymrc]

Yes, wind turbine and PV is tied together charging the same batteries. The wind turbine I purchased is a Proven WT2.5. It is on a 70' freestanding tower. Picked the the Proven for it's reputation of surviving harsh wind sites. I have a harsh wind site. Last January had a peak gust of 102.6 mph. The turbines peak output is 2800 watts @ 30 mph. Last January with a average wind speed of 15.6 it produced 636 KW hours. The cost, 18K doing all the work myself.

PV consist of 2200 watts of panels.

Between the PV and the wind, it produces more than enough to cover our loads. Also have 12KW propane generator for a backup.

Welcome to the forums. That's a lot of power. 24V I take it? how many AH of storage do you have?

[offgrid]

48 volt system. The advantage to 48 over 24 is lower current, smaller gauge wire $, single series string of batteries.

1180 AH battery bank, 24-2volt cells. A nominal 50V's x 1180 = 59, 000 watts capacity. We use about 8 KW's a day. Battery bank gives us 3 day storage discharging down to 50%. Very rare to go 3 days w/o sun or wind.

[Seamonkey]

This thread and another one got me thinking about a solar unit to charge batteries for power tools.
If the SHTF and your house is damaged power tools would let you fix your house up faster. Being able to charge the batteries for the tools off a solar powered battery system seems like a logical step to me.
Could the same set up be used for recharging cell phones, flashlights and AA or AAA batteries?

[offgrid]

A small solar setup will absolutely work for charging you cordless tool batteries.

Get yourself a 100 watt panel, 12 volt charge controller, 150 AH battery, and a Pure Wave Sign inverter.

You can not use a modified sine-wave inverter. There is a high probability your battery chargers will not work or worse burn up your chargers.

You can start small with just a solar panel, charge controller and battery. Run a few lights in your house. You can get 12V lights at most RV/camper stores. You can use a 12V light in any standard lamp.

[7.62x39(4)life]

48 volt system. The advantage to 48 over 24 is lower current, smaller gauge wire $, single series string of batteries.

1180 AH battery bank, 24-2volt cells. A nominal 50V's x 1180 = 59, 000 watts capacity. We use about 8 KW's a day. Battery bank gives us 3 day storage discharging down to 50%. Very rare to go 3 days w/o sun or wind.



This is always the best way to build a battery bank for sure, as differences in battery internal resistance can cause havoc in larger Parallel Strings of batteries.

48 volts is a good battery bank voltage for wind turbine systems, with long cable runs out to the tower.

In larger electrical substations they use a 125-130Vdc battery system consisting of a large string of batteries that is center grounded for so if you touch a wire it is only + or - 65 VDC with respect to ground.


I have a high voltage dc grid tied solar system all planned out, when I have the money...

[paulmartin483]

Yups I am also trying to design a solar power battery charger that won't overcharge batteries. I've worked out how to make a basic solar charger with solar panel, blocking diode, voltage regular, battery, but I can't figure out how to prevent the batteries from overcharging if I leave them out. I was thinking that an NPN transistor might be useful as a switch, but I don't know where to start.Any suggestions.

[offgrid]

Yups I am also trying to design a solar power battery charger that won't overcharge batteries. I've worked out how to make a basic solar charger with solar panel, blocking diode, voltage regular, battery, but I can't figure out how to prevent the batteries from overcharging if I leave them out. I was thinking that an NPN transistor might be useful as a switch, but I don't know where to start.Any suggestions.

Suggest a Morningstar TS45 or a Xantrex C40 charge controller. These monitor the battery voltage/charge, no worries about overcharging. If you are wanting to build a charge controller, check out www.otherpower.com forum, I'm sure you can find a schematic for one. Hugh Piggot, a well know small wind turbine designer posts over there. Or google Hugh Piggot.

What do you have for panel(s), batteries? Voltage?

The link you provided, do you work for that company? Do you have a Southwest wind turbine?

[jerrymrc]

Suggest a Morningstar TS45 or a Xantrex C40 charge controller. These monitor the battery voltage/charge, no worries about overcharging. If you are wanting to build a charge controller, check out www.otherpower.com forum, I'm sure you can find a schematic for one. Hugh Piggot, a well know small wind turbine designer posts over there. Or google Hugh Piggot.

What do you have for panel(s), batteries? Voltage?

The link you provided, do you work for that company? Do you have a Southwest wind turbine?

I do like the article here. http://www.otherpower.com/popup.html This is exactly how I learned. I used to camp for 5-7 days at a time up at the Buffalo Creek range. This is how through trial and error exactly what and how was needed. Even though I have worked the electronics field for 30 years now it was fun and challenging to learn something new. This led to my LED trials and other projects.

I do need to find another place to camp in the middle of nowhere.

[DOC]

I got my own ideas for getting off the grid. About $5,000 will fix all my electric and car needs.

[mangyhyena]

I got my own ideas for getting off the grid. About $5,000 will fix all my electric and car needs.


Wood gas? I priced them out at around $5K and they'll make electricity or run a vehicle. Do I get 5 points for a right answer or the big buzzer for being off base?
If I'm right, have you checked into storing wood gas in pressurized tanks? Someone is doing that right now. Don't know how safe that is, but it's being done. That would allow you to build up a store of fuel ahead of time and it would allow you to run your vehicle without pulling a gasifier along for the ride on a trailer.

[DOC]

Its the buzzer sorry. Wood gas sounds very interesting indeed. If done with the right wood one could smoke a brisket while making fuel for their car.
Mine idea is an engine idea that I've been kicking around since 1999 or so. I've tried it once but haven't committed to finishing it yet. The idea of pissing off the OPEC because we wouldn't need their oil anymore is what I see happening and its a double edged sword. And it wouldn't require a change in lifestyle so I think it would catch on with everyone after a while.

[funkfool]

This looks like a good deal... but it also looks like it may be cheap and easily destructable...
Anyone have experience with a simple charger like this? Jerry?

http://beprepared.com/images/500/CL-L530.jpg

Wavelength Emergency Radio, Charger & Flashlight


http://beprepared.com/product.asp?pn=CL%20L530&sid=INEM881&EID=ALL1010&lm=emer&bhcd2=1285948940 (http://beprepared.com/product.asp?pn=CL%20L530&sid=INEM881&EID=ALL1010&lm=emer&bhcd2=1285948940)


The Wavelength is a crucial emergency preparedness item. It is an AM/FM radio, a cell phone charger and a rechargeable flashlight all in one!


A hand crank charges the built-in Nickel Metal Hydride battery. The battery will run the radio for up to 12 minutes from just 1 minute of cranking.


One of the unique features of the Wavelength is its ability to charge a cell phone with its universal charging cable. Unlike other cell phone chargers, the Wavelength comes with a cable that looks just like your car's power outlet. This allows you to plug in phones, PDA's, and other electronics that have car-charging cables. Simply connect the included cable into the Wavelength™, then plug in your car charging cable, and finally plug in the electronic device, and begin cranking. It's that easy! The unit sends the electricity to your device as long as you crank at the rate of two turns per second. The Wavelength™ isn't any faster at charging your electronics than your car, so if you have a very low battery, you'll have to crank for a while to get a full charge. But in an emergency you should get about 3 minutes of talk-time for every minute of cranking.


There is also a 3 LED flashlight that toggles between two brightness settings. The flashlight will stay on for up to 30 minutes on the low setting (only using 1 LED bulb) for every minute of cranking.


We highly recommend that you include the Wavelength Emergency Radio, Charger & Flashlight in your emergency supplies.

[Irving]

Here is my failed attempt at trying to improve a similar flashlight. http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20482

I love the concept, but the batter in all three of my wind up flashlights is a tiny button battery that really doesn't last long at all. I need to try this again but just haven't gotten around to it.

[jerrymrc]

This looks like a good deal... but it also looks like it may be cheap and easily destructable...
Anyone have experience with a simple charger like this? Jerry?


Wavelength Emergency Radio, Charger & Flashlight


http://beprepared.com/product.asp?pn=CL%20L530&sid=INEM881&EID=ALL1010&lm=emer&bhcd2=1285948940


The Wavelength is a crucial emergency preparedness item. It is an AM/FM radio, a cell phone charger and a rechargeable flashlight all in one!


A hand crank charges the built-in Nickel Metal Hydride battery. The battery will run the radio for up to 12 minutes from just 1 minute of cranking.


One of the unique features of the Wavelength is its ability to charge a cell phone with its universal charging cable. Unlike other cell phone chargers, the Wavelength comes with a cable that looks just like your car's power outlet. This allows you to plug in phones, PDA's, and other electronics that have car-charging cables. Simply connect the included cable into the Wavelength™, then plug in your car charging cable, and finally plug in the electronic device, and begin cranking. It's that easy! The unit sends the electricity to your device as long as you crank at the rate of two turns per second. The Wavelength™ isn't any faster at charging your electronics than your car, so if you have a very low battery, you'll have to crank for a while to get a full charge. But in an emergency you should get about 3 minutes of talk-time for every minute of cranking.


There is also a 3 LED flashlight that toggles between two brightness settings. The flashlight will stay on for up to 30 minutes on the low setting (only using 1 LED bulb) for every minute of cranking.


We highly recommend that you include the Wavelength Emergency Radio, Charger & Flashlight in your emergency supplies.

It would be alright to have for $12 as long as the shipping does not kill ya. The wife has one like it in her van. OK for what it is.

[martinjony]

Well,The size of the battery bank required will depend on the storage capacity required, the maximum flow rate at maximum load and the minimum temperature at which the batteries will be used. The storage capacity of a battery, the amount of electrical energy, it can contain, is usually expressed in amperes hours.Series wiring refers to connecting batteries to increase volts but not amperes.

[tunielooney]

This is the thread for all things power related. In time I can show you how to build your own solar panels. How to hook up and use a solar powered system, Why you need to have a bunch of rechargeable batteries and why unless you are at your final location that a generator may not be your best friend. Just putting this out there now for the people here to think about. ;)

Thanks buddy. But is it affordable to build solar panels? How much will I spend if I build one?

[jerrymrc]

Thanks buddy. But is it affordable to build solar panels? How much will I spend if I build one?

I will have to look at curent pricing but I was building 2 35W panels for $110.

[thecatsfan]

Just commenting on what I have seen, but there are numerous sellers on eBay offering 12 volt solar panels for less tnat $3 per watt - shipping included.

I know with eBay it is hard to know the quality, but that isn't a huge investment.

I am a network engineer, but I was an electronics technician many years ago. I have no doubt that I have the electromechanical assembly skills to build a panel, but I am not sure it is worth the effort for me to learn how. Of course there is always the benefit of knowing how to fix it as well.

Intersting to know this information. I definitely want to either build or buy some solar panels soon for my RV, and then maybe some for limited power at the house. And as luck would have it, I have access to lots of UPSs as they are retired. Even larger ones - like 3KVa units.

Thanks for the great info.

[offgrid]

Just commenting on what I have seen, but there are numerous sellers on eBay offering 12 volt solar panels for less tnat $3 per watt - shipping included.

I know with eBay it is hard to know the quality, but that isn't a huge investment.

I am a network engineer, but I was an electronics technician many years ago. I have no doubt that I have the electromechanical assembly skills to build a panel, but I am not sure it is worth the effort for me to learn how. Of course there is always the benefit of knowing how to fix it as well.

Intersting to know this information. I definitely want to either build or buy some solar panels soon for my RV, and then maybe some for limited power at the house. And as luck would have it, I have access to lots of UPSs as they are retired. Even larger ones - like 3KVa units.

Thanks for the great info.

With the falling prices of panels, would probably not build now.

Would suggest looking at nominal 24 voltage or higher panel. The higher voltage panels are generally available in higher wattage, less panels, less wiring.

There are several charge controllers available that have very efficient DC to DC converters built into them, allowing higher voltage panels to charge lower voltage battery banks. For example wiring the panels at a nominal 48-72 volts and charging a 12 volt battery bank. This type of charge controller has maximum power point tracking, MPPT. MPPT does not use the battery as a voltage regulator. I've been using a Outback MX60 charge controller for 6yrs on our offgrid system. It's not uncommon for me to see a 10-15% gain over the panels rated output, especially in the winter.

Sharp panels are a good value. Sanyo's are the best available.

[Irving]

Here is a website that offers solar light bulbs. Interesting idea.

http://www.nokero.com/

[thecatsfan]

With the falling prices of panels, would probably not build now.

Would suggest looking at nominal 24 voltage or higher panel. The higher voltage panels are generally available in higher wattage, less panels, less wiring.

There are several charge controllers available that have very efficient DC to DC converters built into them, allowing higher voltage panels to charge lower voltage battery banks. For example wiring the panels at a nominal 48-72 volts and charging a 12 volt battery bank. This type of charge controller has maximum power point tracking, MPPT. MPPT does not use the battery as a voltage regulator. I've been using a Outback MX60 charge controller for 6yrs on our offgrid system. It's not uncommon for me to see a 10-15% gain over the panels rated output, especially in the winter.

Sharp panels are a good value. Sanyo's are the best available.

Sounds like great advice. Definitely will keep that in mind.

[funkfool]

After reading a bit of the ferfal stuff.. I am going to prioritize getting a solar/crank radio and cell charger...
What do you guys use or suggest (Obviously one that won't break the bank...)
Like this (http://www.prepare-now.com/802.html) or these (http://www.21st-century-goods.com/categories/Radio/Emergency-Radios-and-Solar-Radios/)...

[ChunkyMonkey]

The red cross radio etc is a piece of crap. You won't get much signal etc. Check out Grundig FR200 to include short wave.

[jerrymrc]

After reading a bit of the ferfal stuff.. I am going to prioritize getting a solar/crank radio and cell charger...
What do you guys use or suggest (Obviously one that won't break the bank...)
Like this (http://www.prepare-now.com/802.html) or these (http://www.21st-century-goods.com/categories/Radio/Emergency-Radios-and-Solar-Radios/)...

The first one is the Kato KA009r in the second link. The Kato SW radios have a better SW section than the FR200. My FR200 was a backup that is now in Japan with member splogan and they were very happy to have it after the Tsunami. Anything is better than nothing.

[funkfool]

What about this (http://www.ambientweather.com/miraxtbacaem.html) one?
It has AM/FM plus NOAA weather and is a base station for 2 way...

Or even better...
I was going to get some 2 way radios anyway...
http://www.ambientweather.com/micombo101kit.html

[ChunkyMonkey]

Mixed review.. most of the bad ones are about its ruggedness or lack of.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Midland+Radio+XT511&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=14096503389121608956&sa=X&ei=GAWzTvK0Osbs2QXjxMnMDQ&ved=0CIkBEPQCMAI&os=reviews

[jerrymrc]

I would get the Kato and then a set of GRMS radios. I have 3 currently. There are both pros and cons of them over CB. So lets talk flashlights/rechargibles/batteries.

Chargers. We have this, http://www.amazon.com/C-Crane-SBC-11-in-1-Battery-Charger/dp/B001BKS3Z2 this http://www.amazon.com/volt-battery-charger-power-supply/dp/B001MKO5LM/ref=pd_sbs_e_4 and some others like this. http://www.amazon.com/Solar-Powered-Battery-Charger-Charges/dp/tech-data/B000H36S0G/ref=de_a_smtd

The second one can be had cheap at Harbor Freight.

They do work but are very slow. As I remember a full day for a couple of AA cells. Once again something is better than nothing. Also for AA and AAA you can pick up old solar path lights at garage sales and charge 1-2 per day depending on the model. Some are more useful than others with options. The one with the clips is handy because you can leave the batteries in the radio and just use the clips to charge them in place.

One thing to think about is versatility. I use almost all 2000-2700 mAh AA and use adapters to fit C/D cell applications. Many of the C/D cells are nothing more than a AA in a bigger body so if you are going to get screwed you might as well do it to yourself.

So far we have been talking about rechargeable batteries and solar. Lets back up a bit and regular chargers. If you are using one of those 15 min fast chargers unless you have an overriding need please get rid of it. you trade speed for battery life. I like the La crosse battery chargers. The early ones have been improved and a good starter set would be this. http://www.amazon.com/Crosse-Technology-BC-9009-AlphaPower-Battery/dp/B00077AA5Q/ref=pd_sbs_e_5

It has variable charging rates, recondition features and the kit comes with a few cells and adapters. I have been using mine for 4 months now and like it. It is not solar powered but since it takes a 3V input I plan to change that. Some thoughts for now. More later.

[Irving]

Jerry, does it harm rechargeable batteries to leave them in the charger, and the charger in the wall socket for an extended amount of time? Like a week?

[jerrymrc]

Jerry, does it harm rechargeable batteries to leave them in the charger, and the charger in the wall socket for an extended amount of time? Like a week?

Depends on the charger. Some are just on a timer and shut off, some provide a very small trickle charge to keep them at 100%. Of the three chargers I have two shut off completely and one trickles.

Of course you kept your owners manual and can refer to it? [LOL]I will say that with my new one reading the manual is essential to getting the most out of the unit.

[Irving]

I inherited all of our chargers.

[jerrymrc]

I inherited all of our chargers.

Since I am the friendly Mod tell ya what. Post the make and model of them and I will look up the manual for ya. I can then read the manual and find out the information ya need. [Flower]

[Irving]

That's okay, I could do that. I appreciate the offer though. I'll just unplug them.

However, do rechargeable batteries "drain" faster than regular ones once they are out of the charger? Seems like they do when they are just sitting inside my Wii remotes.

[jerrymrc]

That's okay, I could do that. I appreciate the offer though. I'll just unplug them.

However, do rechargeable batteries "drain" faster than regular ones once they are out of the charger? Seems like they do when they are just sitting inside my Wii remotes.

They should not. I am working on continuing this series with batteries next but have been busy with a certification test tomorrow. Stay tuned.

[SA Friday]

Considering all the hubbub about the east coast super storm and long term lack of power, I've started looking at generators. I don't know anything about generators, electricity, etc. My brother is a sparky and I rely on him for stuff like this.

So, the $64,000 questions are; What generators should I be looking at? How do people set them up to run their houses after the power goes out? Could this be done with a generator that is still portable enough for me to toss in the back of the truck if I it got so bad I needed to bug out? Basically, I need a crash course...

[Wulf202]

Yes. I use a mil surplus 3kw onan diesel. Its 110. 220 single and 3 phase.

Let's start with what do you need/ want to power in an emergency and what preferred fuel?

[Great-Kazoo]

Yes. I use a mil surplus 3kw onan diesel. Its 110. 220 single and 3 phase.

Let's start with what do you need/ want to power in an emergency and what preferred fuel?

FUEL will be a deciding factor. After talking with family back in ny and as wolf202 pointed out to me a few weeks back. Choose one that you will have alternative fuel capabilities.
Was told gas stations in the metro area up to X distance from nyc, long island and surrounding areas are out of gas. They are running low, water contamination or hoarding. LE depts were notified NO FUEL deliveries until future notice!!!
I have a 6500w gas gen now. I will be looking to add a diesel gen in the near future. Will also research the propane ones as well.

[jerrymrc]

Will also research the propane ones as well. Though I am not big on generators for high drain/short periods the one Wulf202 would be ideal. Like when you need to fire up the welder.[Flower]

[enthusiast]

I am looking for a generator as well. I want to be able to take it with me as well and or take it for extended camping trips.

[Wulf202]

I am looking for a generator as well. I want to be able to take it with me as well and or take it for extended camping trips.

get a honda e2000 and be done with it.


I will be looking to add a diesel gen in the near future. Will also research the propane ones as well.
You can get conversions for several types to go to propane.

[gnihcraes]

Personally: I choose the smallest one I can get away with. Only powering the fridge, furnace or lights. Transfer switch installed, I can run either or all three items. I use a older Coleman 1850 (surge) generator. runs many hours on a gallon of gas. Portable, about 65 pounds I think.

I'd hate to run a big generator that sucks gas for only a few items when a smaller unit will do.

I'd get the e2000 that Wulf202 suggest. I'll get one too someday. Great product. Just $$.

One just like mine on craigslist for $200, can't beat that deal!
http://denver.craigslist.org/tls/3336317882.html

[enthusiast]

Thanks. That got me started on what to look for. I found this video that really explains all of the components well. This would be what I would like to do and I can pull them and take them on the road.

Anyone a honda generator dealer? [Beer]

Y2B4Vvz9Xqw

[Wulf202]

that guy has got to be an engineer...

That shit makes no sense but it's pretty on paper.

[hghclsswhitetrsh]

Holy smokes there's a lot of gennies on Craigslist. Thanks for reviving this thread.

[Great-Kazoo]

that guy has got to be an engineer...

That shit makes no sense but it's pretty on paper.


[LOL][LOL][LOL][LOL][LOL] True dat. especially when you point to something and go. So what's that for? ummmmmmmmmmm let me look at the drawings.
Like my late friend, could build a nuke in home depot, but couldn't tie his shoes.

[hobowh]

has anyone tried these? http://www.ebay.com/itm/128-watt-Flexible-Solar-Panel-Peel-Stick-Roof-Panel-by-Uni-solar-Made-in-USA-/270922084212?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1436ef74 I thought they would be great for an off grid setup, at least for a steel roof. Thinking about putting a couple on top of the camper to see how they work out.

[Wulf202]

Flat roofs can use flat panels to produce more power than the flex panels. Flex panels are for temporary short term use

[gnihcraes]

15000 watts to charge a cell phone. This is gas money spent well...

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Slideshows/_production/ss-121025-hurricane-sandy/ss-121029-sandy-aftermath-jb-12.ss_full.jpg

[gnihcraes]

that guy has got to be an engineer...

That shit makes no sense but it's pretty on paper.

I'd have to agree, after watching that, I'm not really clear on why such a mess. I have a transfer switch, which is connected to the circuits I need to power. Done.

[offgrid]

has anyone tried these? http://www.ebay.com/itm/128-watt-Flexible-Solar-Panel-Peel-Stick-Roof-Panel-by-Uni-solar-Made-in-USA-/270922084212?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1436ef74 I thought they would be great for an off grid setup, at least for a steel roof. Thinking about putting a couple on top of the camper to see how they work out.

These panels were designed for standing seem metal roofs. Couple negatives to this panel, large foot print for wattage output compared to a framed panel, somewhat permanent install. A friend has installed these on RV's for customers, they ain't coming off easily. Advantages to these panels, heat does not affect the output as much as most framed panels, not as many penetration points on the roof.

[Irving]

My neighbor picked up a very small Honda generator that is AC/DC. I think it is 350w or something. I was thinking about trying to buy it from him. Is an AC/DC generator desirable?

[BigNick73]

15000 watts to charge a cell phone. This is gas money spent well...

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Slideshows/_production/ss-121025-hurricane-sandy/ss-121029-sandy-aftermath-jb-12.ss_full.jpg

ROFL go to autozone and buy one of these cheap solar panels that plugs into your cigarette lighter to keep the battery charged, 2 dc car outlets and a car USB charger. Connect the two outlets so it works like a female to female adapter and plug in. Costs about $20 if you catch the panels on sale, think I paid about $10 for mine, works great as long as the sun is out. Charges anything that uses a 5v USB cable. You can also use some of the 12v spliters, I have one that is a cable that runs into a little box that has 4 outlets. just plug the panel in one outlet and devices in the others.

[Irving]

How fast do those solar charges work? The reason I ask is because I've noticed that the USB charger from my old stupid phone, charges my new Smart phone so poorly, that it only maintains or slows the battery going down. It won't make a positive charge at all. I suppose it could be bad, but it turns the phone charging symbol on like it is supposed to, and seems to still charge the old phone.

[ChunkyMonkey]

How fast do those solar charges work? The reason I ask is because I've noticed that the USB charger from my old stupid phone, charges my new Smart phone so poorly, that it only maintains or slows the battery going down. It won't make a positive charge at all. I suppose it could be bad, but it turns the phone charging symbol on like it is supposed to, and seems to still charge the old phone.

On a sunny day, my 5 watt solar usb charges the iphone roughly 1% per minute, the ipad around 8-10% per hour.

[Irving]

1% per minute is not bad at all. Is this the cheap one referred to at auto stores, or like the GoalZero one that they sell?

[ChunkyMonkey]

Sunstactic.. $130 - alot of them online.

[Wulf202]

http://money.msn.com/technology-investment/post.aspx?post=1caf21ea-2252-440d-8273-89a35459fcb0


By Bill Gunderson
As one solar company after another goes out of business, here is what investors do not know and promoters will not tell you: Solar panels do not work that well.
Sometimes not at all. But for several years, most solar systems, big and small, were so heavily subsidized, they were practically free. So lots of people did not really care.
Not enough to check the output of their systems. The few who did often had a big surprise.
Shares of First Solar (FSLR -8.92%) recently took a 10% hit on one day after the company told investors its panels made in 2008-2009 had problems. Here is how the stock has performed over the years:
It is not a surprise that First Solar's panels failed. It is surprising anyone found out.
Solar systems fail in a lot of different ways. Let's look at four.
Dirt: Google (GOOG +0.05%) was among the first to figure this out, maybe because it was among the first to do a large-scale solar array.
Unlike the owners of most solar systems, Google was eager to learn about how its system performed. Six months after installing its system, Google learned it was only getting about half of the power it expected.
That was the first shock. The second was realizing that a large solar array was not just one system but thousands. Each panel a mini-power plant. And the only way to figure out if the individual panels were working was to test each one.
There go your solar savings
The gang at Google figured out that the farmer next door had plowed a field, kicking up the dirt, knocking down its power. Solar panels have to be cleaned, sometimes often.
And the place where they need the most cleaning is where solar panels work the best: The desert. But that is where water is scarce and expensive.
Lousy panels:. Remember Solyndra? Before its well-publicized collapse, the company was k nown for its tube-shaped products that were supposed to collect solar power directly from above and, indirectly, from reflected light below.
In all the stories about Solyndra, no one talked about how shadows from the tubes cut down on the power.
They found out the hard way in Livermore, Calif., where a movie theater got a lot of attention for installing a roof top solar array -- first of its kind when it was installed in 2009. A year later, technicians found out the system was producing 25% less power than projected.
The only laboratory that ever tested the actual performance of Solyndra products figured it out. But it was in Germany and did not receive much attention. Said one energy website: "The report claims the Solyndra module's shadow blocked most if not all of the sunlight before hitting the reflector foil installed below the module, allowing only a small portion of reflected sunlight to hit the backside of the module."
This is the same place where 100 reporters covered President Barack Obama's visit there in 2010, and not one took a moment to figure out why Solyndra's auditors said the company was "not a going concern."
Like First Solar's panels, how would you know? You don't.
The darn things don't work -- at all: In San Diego, the operator of a theater and museum asked some people to check its panels, which, had been installed with lots of fanfare. But squirrels and trees had reduced their solar output to zero within the first year.
A public utility in a southern state had the same experience. A solar company wanted to field-test a new energy product and the engineers at the utility said they could test it on their system. Soon, 10 engineers were tromping around the roof of the utility's headquarters looking for the best place to hook up their device.
"These panels don't work," said one of the engineers with the new product. "There is no power coming out of these panels." Engineers for the utility said "Your instruments are wrong. We are sure the panels work."
So the utility's engineers checked with their instruments. Sure enough: Nothing.
These stories go on and on. The solar panels don't work but no one cares because most people put them up for the publicity and marketing. Not energy.
Solar promoters consider themselves part of a political movement to save the planet. They do not tolerate naysayers.
That is why it is still so easy to find stories that say the non-performance of solar equipment "really looks like a non-story."
Shade: A shadow on a solar array not only knocks out power to that panel, it also shuts down a wide area of panels around it.
Listen to the National Renewable Energy Laboratories: "The reduction in power from shading half of one cell is equivalent to removing a cell active area 36 times the shadow's actual size."
Do your own test: Ask your neighbors if they know how shadows hurt solar panels. Most do not.
Some companies install monitors on each panel. But monitor makers find that the very existence of their product is an admission of problems in that industry. And that is the last thing the True Believers want anyone to hear about.
Especially investors. That is why I shorted First Solar at $121 in March of 2011. Investors would be wise to avoid betting on a solar resurgence.

[Irving]

Interesting. Aren't there people on here who are totally off grid with solar? Also, some parts of the article talk about zero output, while others talk about 75% output. That's a pretty large difference.

[offgrid]

Interesting. Aren't there people on here who are totally off grid with solar? Also, some parts of the article talk about zero output, while others talk about 75% output. That's a pretty large difference.

I'm one of those people who's been offgrid with solar for eight years. One of my neighbors has been offgrid for 20+yrs. Had our solar panels performed as suggested by this article, our wives would have been gone along time ago.

[hobowh]

These panels were designed for standing seem metal roofs. Couple negatives to this panel, large foot print for wattage output compared to a framed panel, somewhat permanent install. A friend has installed these on RV's for customers, they ain't coming off easily. Advantages to these panels, heat does not affect the output as much as most framed panels, not as many penetration points on the roof.

Thanks, I thought they might hold up a little better in hail or wind storms being flexible and prm adhered

[Irving]

I'm one of those people who's been offgrid with solar for eight years. One of my neighbors has been offgrid for 20+yrs. Had our solar panels performed as suggested by this article, our wives would have been gone along time ago.

You were whom I was referring to, but I didn't want to single you out. [Beer]

[jerrymrc]

"The reduction in power from shading half of one cell is equivalent to removing a cell active area 36 times the shadow's actual size."

I for one am not believing it. When I did some testing on my panels I saw a proportional drop off in current. Shade 1/4 of the panel and see a 25% reduction in output.

And if they did not work at all then many would be in the dark and people would have stopped using them years ago.

[Wulf202]

I for one am not believing it. When I did some testing on my panels I saw a proportional drop off in current. Shade 1/4 of the panel and see a 25% reduction in output.

And if they did not work at all then many would be in the dark and people would have stopped using them years ago.

I think he's quoting an old test of an outdated panel style from the 80's to make his point.

Journalists....

[funkfool]

Finally picked up a generator the other day...
Briggs and Stratton 5500 Watt Storm Responder Portable Generator (http://www.briggsandstratton.com/generators/portable-generators/detail/?name=5500-Watt-Storm-Responder-Portable-Generator&id={E868308A-5E8B-4C64-8577-0276A14241DB})
Looks brand new... guy was a gun guy in the Army relocating and said he ran it for 2 hours once... starts first pull.
$300.00 on Craigslist

[Wulf202]

Briggs aren't bad. I'd suggest having a carb rebuild kit. A plug and spare pull rope. If you don't already know how learn how to tear down the carb.

Also you might look into a secondary muffler. 5500 tend to be on the loud side.

[DOC]

Where around town can I go to have a generator fixed?
Also, what can be put on a loud generator to make it quieter? A full size car muffler maybe?

[ChunkyMonkey]

Where around town can I go to have a generator fixed?
Also, what can be put on a loud generator to make it quieter? A full size car muffler maybe?

Not full size.. those are usually 2".. Look for 13/8" od muffler/glasspack. I use a replacement muffler for the geo metro. It's so much quieter now.

[Great-Kazoo]

Where around town can I go to have a generator fixed?
Also, what can be put on a loud generator to make it quieter? A full size car muffler maybe?

Any of the carb and engine repairs i can do. The electrical side / output, etc i had a guy but they have decided drinking was more fun than earning a few dollars.

[Alpine]

I bought a portable (122-lbs) generator post-Omaha snow storm/power outage and pre-Y2K. I did the reasearch, and found the perfect generator for my needs at the time. It's a Generac (Sears label) 4200watt (4500W peak) 120/240VAC and 12VDC unit. What sold me on this generator over all the other brands and models at the time is it runs 11-hours at half load (8-hours full load) on 2.5-gal of gas. The other nice things this generator has is an idle down feature that conserves fuel when there's no load. It also has an oil filter, that spins on/off just like a car engine. The one and only down-side to this generator is it doesn't have the brushless motor like many of the more modern generators now have standard.

Since purchasing the generator, all my power outages have been short lived, mostly an hour here or hour there, with the longest being 5-hours. Honestly these brief outages don't warrant the hassle of getting the generator out of the shed, fueled, connected, etc. I have a wood burner stove, battery powered flash lights and radio's, and can handle a long period without electricity.

One thing no one has mentioned so far, that is fuel. Gasoline today has a limited shelf life due to all the additives and pollution reducing products added to it. The longest that todays gasoline will last, even with Stabile, or other similar products is about a year. I personnaly don't use any gasoline older then 6-months unless it's already in the fuel tank of something like my lawn mower.

One thing that you folks living in the big city need to be aware of, if you have a power outage during difficult times, and you're the only house on the block with lights on, and the sound of a generator running, you are now a target for those willing to take what you have. At a minimum, chain your generator to something so it doesn't get stolen.

[TFOGGER]

I modified a muffler from a 250 ninja for mine. it went from being painfully loud at 30-40 feet to being able to have a normal conversation 10 feet away. Fuel consumption actually improved at the same loading as well.

[polski]

Anybody have experience running solar generators? Inergytek.com is coming out with their new Flex system.