View Full Version : I think I'm done with AR's
Ok, bit of a rant. I think I'm going to stop with the AR's. I've got two of them now, and to be blunt, they are kinda lacking.
Let me say first that I think the idea of a "open source" gun like the AR is great. By mishap more than anything else, a gun that holds together with two pins, where anyone can manufacture compatible parts is an idea that built an industry.
It's just that the actual gun isn't that great. Take a look at the ergonomics... the charging handle is in a horrible location, and is just awkward to use. The magazine release doesn't work for lefties, neither does the safety. The safety is designed to make a nice clean rotation for the internal workings, without regard for how it feels in your hand. And sadly, it's probably the most ergonomic feature on it, other than the trigger. The bolt release, we've see Magpul issue their B.A.D. as a hack to try and improve it.
End rant!
So, my goal is to collect other modern semi-auto versions of modern battle rifles. I think these three are top of the list:
1) http://www.robarm.com/resources/products/xcrlstd/index.aspx
2) Steyr AUG A3 USA (anyone know the prices on these?)
3) DSA FAL
Hoosier
Although I'm no southpaw, I do agree with some of your points. There are a few options to aid in using one for lefties as far as the mag release and selector switch go but the charge handle is pretty funky. Just takes a little getting used to I guess.
ooooooooor........you could could simply pay just a little more money and get all those features you want (a lefty mag release, lefty safety) and i don't see how the charging handle is a problem, even on something like an AK you have to take one hand off and pull back. but hey its your opinion.
steyr aug's are usually damn expensive
Steyr is about $2k from the looks of it, they're getting cheap since Steyr is out with a real USA version now... here's one http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=156781783
I'd love to play around with an IMI Tavor, but their US import partnership fell through, so no telling when we'll get them here.
I think for the price that Robinson Armament rifle solves most of the problems, which is why it's at the top of my list.
Also, I think the AR based pistols are going to get AWB'd again, so I'll probably buy one for the novelty factor if nothing else.
Just can't make these purchases today, sadly! :)
Do you want my home address or my work address so you can *unload those burdens on me?
* I don't have any money. Thanks for being so generous. ;)
Always a Left-handed AR..
jerrymrc
02-08-2010, 21:09
While I understand your frustration a trip back to the basics may help. I carried an A1 for 12 years and 4 deployments and a War. I was also a unit armorer for most of those years.
Until a few years ago I wanted nothing to do with an AR. I owned Fal's, AK's and a few others.
Time has a way of healing things. The wife had been shooting a SAR3 and I had my Fal's (among others). So a few years ago I start reading about the "retro" movement and built one.
The Wife likes it (she carried an A1 as well) and other than some of the ergonomics that are different than all the rest of the toys out there we seem to be able to switch gears pretty easily.
My thought is that an AR complements a Fal or M14 (A1) or even a G3 or Cetme. I am too old to throw anything under the bus but in my case I have done much with what I have. I do plan on my last build to be an Izzy A1 CAR just to keep it in the family.
DD977GM2
02-08-2010, 21:11
Not Eugene's problem you were born with the wrong side of the hand usage going for ya.
There are options for lefties. Not all that much mroe for the lefty stuff. Ergonomics, what AR are YOU shooting? It is very ergonamical. Very point of aim and easy to handle. Very easy for a first time shooter to hit rounds on target. I just do not see the ergonomics as being bad at all. My M1A and M1 Carbine has worse ergonomics. Just as any traditional style rifle has the same kind of ergos. For me, my hand doesnt quite feel right holding it etc, but with the AR and even AK, ergos are not at all awkward.
Oh well, send me your ARs for proper disposal [Beer]
GunTroll
02-08-2010, 21:50
Opened a can here!
Hey....it is black and mean looking! Its got that going for it!
Troublco
02-08-2010, 23:10
I'm an M1/M14 fan, and even I admit that the M16 and its variants are a lot more ergonomic in many ways than the M1/M14 (Don't let the folks on the M14TFL forum hear I said that!) but that doesn't mean it's perfect. The charging handle placement is better than it was originally, I think, simply because if they'd left it where it was originally we wouldn't have flattop AR's today. You can get one with a charging handle on the right side attached to the carrier to eliminate the stock charging handle.
The safety throw is a bit long, but I think it's better than the M1/M14 and not too much worse than the FAL. The G3/CETME safety is roughly the same as the FAL. The thing I don't like about the M1/M14 safety is you have your finger in the triggerguard to take it off, and then your finger is in the triggerguard with the safety off. Just takes some getting used to, and a little extra caution.
Bolt release, well, at least it has one. The FAL doesn't. Neither does the G3 or the CETME. The M14 has one, but unless you upgrade it to an extended unit such as the one from Sadlak it's almost vestigial.
You can get left handed AR's from Stag, in fact a friend of mine who's a lefty discovered one as he was browsing a gun shop one day and liked it so much it followed him home. I don't know if other makers make left handed units, but they might.
It all depends on what you like. I didn't used to be big on AR's, I stuck with my M1's and M14's. But you can't get those in multiple calibers with easy to switch top ends with cheap, easy to find magazines (for the most part - Bushy .450's excluded), and with the massive quantity of different parts available. The different furniture alone is amazing. The charging handle bugs me once in a while, but I'm getting used to it. I just put extended charging handle releases on the ones that need it. My AR in 6.5 Grendel is so versatile I could use it for nearly everything I normally do, excluding Elk. And my .458 SOCOM AR is basically an autoloading 45/70 with a bit more power. Takes down hogs like a freight train.
Just my $.02 worth
you are completely correct. i think their value is damn close to zero. stuart is wanting them for free but i will give you $100 a piece to help you out. they are pretty much scraps anyways!!!
Ryan_Th3_K1d
02-08-2010, 23:31
Sniper7 is completely ripping you off...I'll give you $200 for the proper disposal of each [Beer]
I'm more eco-conscious that those other two guys. I'll take your AR15s off your hands for $250, AND I guarantee to recycle them.
HandKBRad
02-08-2010, 23:42
Bolt release, well, at least it has one. The FAL doesn't. Neither does the G3 or the CETME. The M14 has one, but unless you upgrade it to an extended unit such as the one from Sadlak it's almost vestigial.
My FAL has a bolt release. A bolt release is some thing I always wished my H&K’s had. I thought it was neat when H&K came out with MP5/10 & 40 with the bolt hold open. As much as I love my H&K’s they are the least ergonomic rifle for a lefty.
Being wrong handed, the only real problem I have with an AR is the mag release. I like a charging handle on the side v.s. the rear also.
Not sure if those issues are worth abandoning the AR platform, though.
theGinsue
02-09-2010, 00:24
Being another lefty, I bought a true left-handed AR. Problem solved. Charging handle was never a problem for me to work.
What I DO have a problem with is bolt and lever action rifles. It's difficult to find a left-handed bolt. When you do find one, you can never get it the way you want it (I just want a left-handed bolt 30-06 in stainless steel with a factory synthetic stock; preferably a Ruger).
Handguns - next to impossible to find ofr a lefty! Revolvers load from the wrong side. Semi-auto's - some can be set up with a lefty mag release and have ambi-safety's but they still eject to the right. Not so much of a problem while shooting, but clearing the gun isn't comfortable.
All in all, my lefty AR is set up very well for me and it's versatile enough to boot.
jerrymrc
02-09-2010, 06:12
My FAL has a bolt release. A bolt release is some thing I always wished my H&K’s had. I thought it was neat when H&K came out with MP5/10 & 40 with the bolt hold open. As much as I love my H&K’s they are the least ergonomic rifle for a lefty.
Mine too. All four of them.
I'm not a lefty. Well, I'm left eye dominate but right handed. Anyway, my point is sometimes you need to clear a room from the right, you want to be able to move your weapon to the left and work with it.
My point is that we're all use to (and settling for) a weapon that has some really stupid old design choices. I know you can use anything effectively if you train for it, and this weapon has evolved a long way. In the 70's it was revolutionary, and it's had 40 years of evolution.
In my initial complaints I forgot to mention the magazine release, that's actually in a nice place, it should just work either way.
But it's still living with those same bad decisions.
* Direct Impingement Gas System
* Buffer spring tube / no folding stock
* Forward Assist
* Bolt catch/release
* Charging handle
* Safety
* Huge brass deflector block
* Brass comes out the side
(What are your pet peeves about it?)
The upside to the AR is that it's an open specification, so anyone can manufacture components or even entire weapons without getting into royalty or licensing situations.
Ideally I think something like the ACR falling into the same licensing environment that the venerable Armalite rifle is is in would solve our problems. Good weapons that solve the problems listed above, and can still be modified and built up for the low prices we get today.
And, I'll be keeping my existing two until I get replacements, and when I do these will go in the trading post. ;)
H.
http://co-ar15.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2352&d=1265684918
I love this pic, I used it when testing an image hosting website I worked on. There's a site out there with pictures of a lot of hot Israeli girls with guns. Bonus, I think this picture is Masada...
But even the IDF is switching away from the M-16 to the IMI Tavor.
H.
The charging handle is in an awkward place. I'm an AK guy I guess. I think this is the reason I just unloaded the LR 308 I just got. I'm still going to build a 15 though. I can't argue that they are badass rifles for sure. I guess I just like the K.I.S.S. appoach you get with the AK and other battle rifles. I also like knowing how reliable certain rifles are.
I just recently watched a vid where they dug up an ak that had been burried for 18 years, full of rust. They wiped it down with oil and the damn thing ran like a champ.
About 2:00 minutes in. >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4v9ElJgkpw&feature=player_embedded
As some other guy mentioned I guess this is kind of a can of worms, seeing as how this is COLORADO AR-15 SHOOTERS, but I like things that just work.
rhineoshott
02-09-2010, 10:41
I tend to agree heartily. But the comparatively cheap price is what keeps me interested.
My main beef with the AR is the fact that it doesn't have a folding stock. IMO, the only tactical rifles without a folding stock (except those with a serious emphasis on precision) should be bullpups. I just hate all that wasted space.
The charging handle is another thing that I'm not a real fan of. I think it should be near the front of the forend (ambidextrous of course!) and be pulled with your non trigger hand.
Safeties, mag release, and bolt catch/release should be like an average pistol. Ambi thumb safety, Ambi mag release (a "lever" kinda like HK pistols have), and ambi bolt catch similar to pistols.
Aren't these changes that y'all keep talking about on teh SCAR and XCR?
iamhunter
02-09-2010, 10:52
The collapsible stock option is one of the biggest bonuses of the AR IMO.
I've never been a fan of folding stocks... aesthetically and functionally, they've always bugged me.
Just personal preference I suppose.
Oh and get this.
I'm left handed, but I shoot, play guitar, and box right handed (pretty much anything sports oriented)
Weird, I know.
7.62x39(4)life
02-09-2010, 11:42
I would look at a robinson arms rifle they have adressed alot of the issues but it is still very ar-15 ishhttp://files.blog-city.com/files/aa/21391/p/f/RA-XCR.jpg
ronaldrwl
02-09-2010, 12:01
While I don't disagree with you, I'm comming from a hunting background and the AR's seem very progressive (nice liberal term). There is so many more variations and options.
I'll go one better, I trade you one hunting rife for a one AR [Santa]
rhineoshott
02-09-2010, 12:13
The collapsible stock option is one of the biggest bonuses of the AR IMO.
I've never been a fan of folding stocks... aesthetically and functionally, they've always bugged me.
They make folding + collapsing stocks too. I too don't like fixed length stocks even if they're folders either.
iamhunter
02-09-2010, 12:52
They make folding + collapsing stocks too. I too don't like fixed length stocks even if they're folders either.
That's much more interesting to me :p
I haven't used a folder since one of my dad's old AKs,
are they more sturdy these days?
I know it was probably just paranoia, but I always had the feeling that thing was gonna snap off. haha.
Has anyone used a XCR? It does seem to have all the features I want. I wonder if their grips are interchangeable with AR grips.
I'm not a lefty. Well, I'm left eye dominate but right handed.
Man, your fawked. [Muaha]
What I DO have a problem with is bolt and lever action rifles. It's difficult to find a left-handed bolt. When you do find one, you can never get it the way you want it (I just want a left-handed bolt 30-06 in stainless steel with a factory synthetic stock; preferably a Ruger).
Handguns - next to impossible to find ofr a lefty! Revolvers load from the wrong side. Semi-auto's - some can be set up with a lefty mag release and have ambi-safety's but they still eject to the right. Not so much of a problem while shooting, but clearing the gun isn't comfortable.
I recently found a Savage 110 with blued barrel and wood stock. And I was grateful! [Abused]
Winchester model '94s eject from the top. Marlins eject from the right side but have never been a problem for me.
Look at Savage for a lefty in your flavor.
Springfield's XDs are close to ambi/lefty. 1911s are easy to convert to ambi safety but not ambi mad release. Then again, you probably knew that. [Tooth]
Troublco
02-10-2010, 10:45
My FAL has a bolt release. A bolt release is some thing I always wished my H&K’s had. I thought it was neat when H&K came out with MP5/10 & 40 with the bolt hold open. As much as I love my H&K’s they are the least ergonomic rifle for a lefty.
Hmmmm. I'll have to dig mine out of the safe and have a look; it's a DSA build of a 50.63 model. I distinctly remember the bolt hold open, but I don't remember the release (other than the cocking handle).
I really liked the Robinson M96 but I didn't like how they dropped it and now getting parts for them is nearly impossible. At least with an AR you don't have that problem.
Driftwood
02-10-2010, 11:34
I'm not a lefty. Well, I'm left eye dominate but right handed. Anyway, my point is sometimes you need to clear a room from the right, you want to be able to move your weapon to the left and work with it.
My point is that we're all use to (and settling for) a weapon that has some really stupid old design choices. I know you can use anything effectively if you train for it, and this weapon has evolved a long way. In the 70's it was revolutionary, and it's had 40 years of evolution.
I agree with this.
The world is ambidextrous, it is not Left or Right handed. It seems the OP (and most of the world) is looking for a hardware solution rather than a software solution. I thoroughly believe regardless of weapon system (a tool, remember), one should be able to operate with either hand fluidly. It takes practice, yeah, nothing worthwhile comes easy. But it can be done.
In any martial art, do you only fight or spar L handed if you're a lefty? How about if you're R handed?
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